Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Federal Appeals court upholds Healthcare Law
Topic Started: Nov 9 2011, 01:50 AM (1,912 Views)
Chris
Member Avatar
Fire & Ice Senior Diplomat
[ * ]
tomdrobin
Nov 9 2011, 10:21 AM
Insurance can't work if only sick people buy insurance, or healthy people wait until they are sick and on the way to the hospital to take out a policy. The idea that those who opt out will just be denied care sounds great, but we all know it will never happen. The only way to control cost is to cover everyone, and negotiate fees with providers and drug companies.
"The only way to control cost is to cover everyone, and negotiate fees with providers and drug companies."

Fine example of liberal fascism. Mussolini must be smiling. But rationing doesn't lead to lower costs and it leads to poorer service...

Besides, it's not controling cost: HEALTH CARE SWALLOWS HALF OF ALL REVENUES IN ONTARIO, QUEBEC; FOUR OTHER PROVINCES EXPECTED TO HIT 50 PER CENT BY 2017
Quote:
 
With six out of 10 provinces on pace to spend half of all available revenues on health care within six years, the current method of funding Canada''s health care system is not sustainable, says a new report from the Fraser Institute, Canada''s leading public policy think-tank.

The report, Canada''s Medicare Bubble: Is Government Health Spending Sustainable without User-Based Funding?, found that government health spending in Canada''s two largest provinces—Ontario and Quebec—currently consumes more than half of total provincial revenues, and Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia, and New Brunswick will face the same funding crunch by 2017. Manitoba and Prince Edward Island are on track to spend half of all revenues on health care by 2028.

The report recommends temporarily suspending enforcement of the provisions of the Canada Health Act that prohibit consumer cost-sharing and private insurance, to allow provinces to experiment with new ways of financing medical goods and services, while still maintaining universal access and portability. ...


On top of that, Statistics Show Canadian Healthcare Is Inferior to American System
Quote:
 
Those who would have the U.S. government play a larger role in healthcare like to point to Canada as an example the United States should follow. Their argument, in sum, is that healthcare there is of high quality, is readily available and, because of generous government subsidies, much cheaper. In fact, most Americans know little about the inner workings of the Canadian system other than the anecdotal evidence provided by both sides of the debate. A look at the hard data, however, suggests there is more support for the arguments put forward by the critics of the Canadian system than by those who see it as a model for the United States.

Working off data compiled by The Fraser Institute, a Canadian think tank, the GOP staff of the congressional Joint Economic Committee assembled this chart to show in visual terms how long Canadian patients have to wait to receive essential healthcare services:

Posted Image

...
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

Pat
Nov 9 2011, 03:35 AM
The questions you raise Brew merely seek a complicated view. An assumption perhaps that we have some moral obligation to irresponsible people. The millions of decisions people make in their life should have consequences if the decisions are dumb.

A person is born into the richest nation on earth. Provided education and nurturing by the society and family. If they decide to not make arrangements ofr health insurance or burial then two consequences exist. 1. If they get ill or injure themselves, unless they can find a bleeding heart to pay for their care, unless they have saved enough money to pay fpr their care, and unless their family can care for them, then dearth is a real possibility. If subsequently, nobody claims the body, then some quick lime and an unmarked grave awaits them. We do after all, need to protect ourselves from their disease carrying corpse.
Pat.............you analogy is so rosy, let paint reality

A friend died, left his wife with two daughters to finish raising. he worked hard all his life to provide a good education for his daughters. She continued by working three jobs, going through whatever savings they had to educate her kids. She has worked 80hrs a week for the last ten years with maybe a 3 day driving trip once a year.
She cannot afford health insurance as there is no savings left. Her jobs will not give her full time so they can avoid giving healthcare. Whats ironic is that her career is in medical billing.

So what about her Pat, what is your solution?
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Brewster
Member Avatar
Fire & Ice Senior Diplomat
[ * ]
Chris, you accuse ME of emotionalism, then turn around and post rightwing crap from the most extreme think tank in Canada, the Koch-funded Fraser Institute.

Better look up "Confirmation Bias".

On second thought, maybe I'd better find it for you. In your emotional state, you'd probably miss it.
Wikipedia
 
Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is a tendency for people to favor information that confirms their preconceptions or hypotheses regardless of whether the information is true. As a result, people gather evidence and recall information from memory selectively, and interpret it in a biased way. The biases appear in particular for emotionally significant issues and for established beliefs.

Were you so wrapped up in your emotional thankfulness that you didn't even notice that your report on the inferiority of the Canadian system is based on one stat - wait times? And doesn't compare wait times to need?

And did it not occur to you that every country in the world is battling rising health care costs? Fraser Institute has taken the worst possible scenario for every province and assumed nobody was going to do anything to fix it.

Worse, they didn't actually print any numbers at all. If they did, you would find that no matter how fast costs are rising in Canada, our system is still costing the average Canadian citizen (and not just Canada, by the way, also every other industrialized nation in the world) barely more than than HALF what the US pays. And even that doesn't really tell the story. Since about 40% of all Americans don't have health insurance, the other 60% are picking up all of the private costs, and more again as taxpayers.

Average American Family paying over $13,000 per year

And that's only Private insurance. A rightwing think tank in the US found these numbers on the government side:

US Governement spends more on health care per person than any other country. - $4,000

And that's not taking into account the imbalance in taxation in the US. Based on figures I've posted before, the middle class is paying about 70% more than the rich and poor, which would make their share probably in the neighborhood of $7,000.

Going with those numbers, if we assume that the average middle class American family has four members, that would mean that if they are carrying private health insurance they are paying $28,000 in federal taxes and another $13,000 in private insurance, for a whopping $41,000! Add on about $4000 in state taxes, and we have a nice even $45,000. Is it any wonder so many "opt out"?

Of course, if they have an employer who picks up the costs, they don't notice it directly. But then, how many employers are moving out due to health care costs alone?

Here in Canada, we pay $5,452 per person, some of it in taxes, some in premiums, some in private extended plans. And with our relatively flat tax rate, everybody pays their share. That means our equivalent family is paying about $22,000.

Pay more, get poorer results, and drive business out of the country. The US Right has this one nailed.

Signing off. Chris is so emotionally attached to his dogma he'll post more stuff contaminated with Confirmation Bias, but the facts are here.
Edited by Brewster, Nov 9 2011, 11:39 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jim Miller
Member Avatar
Fire & Ice Senior Diplomat
[ * ]
Jeez, Brew. This is none of your business. Butt out.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Brewster
Member Avatar
Fire & Ice Senior Diplomat
[ * ]
Nothing to say on the subject, Jim?

Oh, I forgot - you're fully covered through your government - union plan. No worries there. Stick with your right wing agenda.
Edited by Brewster, Nov 9 2011, 11:36 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

Quote:
 
Working off data compiled by The Fraser Institute


The Fraser Institute? The worlds masters at manipulating statistics. LOL.

Funny, my doctor referred me for a colonoscopy 3 weeks ago. I had it in Hospital on Friday. No-one among my friends & family have ever experienced any of these "wait times" the Fraser Institute seems to be able to dig up. I wonder why that is? I'm still waiting for one. Pun intended. I suspect they are padding with stats for minor optional procedures. Or maybe they are not factoring in the time it takes for an eskimo form Baffin island to get to Toronto for a procedure. LOL. They have been pushing for a for-profit type system for years. Then again one just has to look at their funding. Those guys are salivating over the prospects of a Dicckens type type society.

That aside, what Chris does not seem to understand is that a system fat with middlemen (read private insurance companies & lawyers) who contribute nothing by expensive bureaucracy to a medical system will easily drain it of its resources. A single payer system is inherently cheaper & more efficient. Medical care is expensive, but I think most people will agree that health trumps all over concerns. Having a fancy car or boat don't mean much if your dead or infirm.

I'd sure hate to see what my grandaughters bill would have been in the US for 1 week in an ICU, 3 weeks in a private room, with 2 session of plastic surgery, 2 MRI's, a 4 hour helicopter evacuation, RV site on the hospital grounds, and jaw surgery.


They would be better off looking at health statistic comparisons. Canadians beat Americans hands down in every category, including birth rate survival & lifespan.


I await a string of "strawman" & "ad hom" responses form the usual source.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jim Miller
Member Avatar
Fire & Ice Senior Diplomat
[ * ]
Brewster
Nov 9 2011, 11:36 PM
Nothing to say on the subject, Jim?

Not with a nosy foreigner.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

BTW I can spell that English authors name above, the bad word filter kept removing part of it. Mike needs to adjust that, its also a common first name.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

Jim repeating yourself is the first sign of Alzenheimers. see a doctor. If you can find one.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jim Miller
Member Avatar
Fire & Ice Senior Diplomat
[ * ]
Excellent retort, Paul. It is right up there with the rest of your drivel.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Fire And Ice General Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Website Traffic Analysis