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The Vatican Calls For An End to Capitalism
Topic Started: Nov 1 2011, 07:03 AM (959 Views)
tomdrobin
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I see governments role as a moderator when corporate interests are counter to the common good. And, as a stabilizer of the booms and bust cycles of laizes faire capitalism.
We have seen first hand with the 2008 financial meltdown, the fallacy of thinking markets can and will self regulate. Wasn't Enron a product of deregulation? It seems the far right thinks that all government has to do is step back, get out of the way, and all will just be hunky dory. History has plenty of evidence, that is a recipe for eventual disaster.
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Chris
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tomdrobin
Nov 2 2011, 11:06 AM
I see governments role as a moderator when corporate interests are counter to the common good. And, as a stabilizer of the booms and bust cycles of laizes faire capitalism.
We have seen first hand with the 2008 financial meltdown, the fallacy of thinking markets can and will self regulate. Wasn't Enron a product of deregulation? It seems the far right thinks that all government has to do is step back, get out of the way, and all will just be hunky dory. History has plenty of evidence, that is a recipe for eventual disaster.
If that's the state's role, it's doing a bang up job of it, isn't it?

The meltdown was caused by government regulations that incentivized, and backed, and bailed the financial sector, not to take advantage of natural greed to benefit all, but only to benefit a few...in the financial sector, but they failed, no, in the state.

The free market will self-regulate, but that's not a claim that it's perfect. It just beats socialism.

You still haven't answered a simple question, Tm, where do corporations get their power? There can only be two sources, society or the state.
Edited by Chris, Nov 2 2011, 11:13 AM.
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Mike
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I believe it was John Stuart Mill's who penned a piece on liberty and the affect the tyranny of the majority can have on a republic like ours. He wasn't the first to discuss this and I believe you find similar warnings in the federalist papers. We seem to have arrived at the point we were forewarned about, where special interests now control our government and the electorate have had their will co opted by a system wherein politicians remain entrenched and in in power for decades, and liberty has become just another word.

I don't believe Tom, that how you see government's role is possible right now. Maybe the occupiers of Wall Street movement will morph into a revolution where we regain control of our government.
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Thumper
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One job one vote.
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colo_crawdad
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Thumper
Nov 2 2011, 09:38 PM
One job one vote.
Does that mean that the folks on the lower end of our economic system who hold down two and three jobs in an attempt to just get by get two or three votes and those of us retired that hold no jobs get no vootes? (I still have a job while retired.. Would that give me two votes?
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Chris
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Mike
Nov 2 2011, 09:18 PM
I believe it was John Stuart Mill's who penned a piece on liberty and the affect the tyranny of the majority can have on a republic like ours. He wasn't the first to discuss this and I believe you find similar warnings in the federalist papers. We seem to have arrived at the point we were forewarned about, where special interests now control our government and the electorate have had their will co opted by a system wherein politicians remain entrenched and in in power for decades, and liberty has become just another word.

I don't believe Tom, that how you see government's role is possible right now. Maybe the occupiers of Wall Street movement will morph into a revolution where we regain control of our government.
Federalist 51 for example.

I'll ask you, Mike, the same question I've repeatedly asked Tom, how did these special interests get their power? There can be only two sources, society, from which all power derives, or the state, to which society granted certain powers. Where did the special interests get theirs?
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Mike
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colo_crawdad
Nov 2 2011, 10:17 PM
Thumper
Nov 2 2011, 09:38 PM
One job one vote.
Does that mean that the folks on the lower end of our economic system who hold down two and three jobs in an attempt to just get by get two or three votes and those of us retired that hold no jobs get no vootes? (I still have a job while retired.. Would that give me two votes?
Hmmm. Excellent points Lowell.
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Jim Miller
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I would rather give citizens like Lowell two or more votes than some of the losers we have one vote.
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Mike
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Chris
Nov 2 2011, 10:29 PM
Mike
Nov 2 2011, 09:18 PM
I believe it was John Stuart Mill's who penned a piece on liberty and the affect the tyranny of the majority can have on a republic like ours. He wasn't the first to discuss this and I believe you find similar warnings in the federalist papers. We seem to have arrived at the point we were forewarned about, where special interests now control our government and the electorate have had their will co opted by a system wherein politicians remain entrenched and in in power for decades, and liberty has become just another word.

I don't believe Tom, that how you see government's role is possible right now. Maybe the occupiers of Wall Street movement will morph into a revolution where we regain control of our government.
Federalist 51 for example.

I'll ask you, Mike, the same question I've repeatedly asked Tom, how did these special interests get their power? There can be only two sources, society, from which all power derives, or the state, to which society granted certain powers. Where did the special interests get theirs?
I think Chris, the original cause must be from society. Misplaced trust and taking the eye off the ball of freedom and liberty. And once the politicians became aware of this lack of public scrutiny....they conspired to set up rules and procedures designed to make it difficult to remove them from office.

We didn't just wake up one day and have this occur overnight. But if a revolution does breakout, the reverse might happen over night and a few politicians find themselves hanging from a lamp post. Revolutions can take on a life of their own. My guess is that big government already has contingency plans in place to thwart any citizen revolt.

The focus of big government is on maintaining control and bending to the will of special interests. Or at least it seems our big government has taken on that persona.
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Chris
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Mike
Nov 2 2011, 11:56 PM
Chris
Nov 2 2011, 10:29 PM
Mike
Nov 2 2011, 09:18 PM
I believe it was John Stuart Mill's who penned a piece on liberty and the affect the tyranny of the majority can have on a republic like ours. He wasn't the first to discuss this and I believe you find similar warnings in the federalist papers. We seem to have arrived at the point we were forewarned about, where special interests now control our government and the electorate have had their will co opted by a system wherein politicians remain entrenched and in in power for decades, and liberty has become just another word.

I don't believe Tom, that how you see government's role is possible right now. Maybe the occupiers of Wall Street movement will morph into a revolution where we regain control of our government.
Federalist 51 for example.

I'll ask you, Mike, the same question I've repeatedly asked Tom, how did these special interests get their power? There can be only two sources, society, from which all power derives, or the state, to which society granted certain powers. Where did the special interests get theirs?
I think Chris, the original cause must be from society. Misplaced trust and taking the eye off the ball of freedom and liberty. And once the politicians became aware of this lack of public scrutiny....they conspired to set up rules and procedures designed to make it difficult to remove them from office.

We didn't just wake up one day and have this occur overnight. But if a revolution does breakout, the reverse might happen over night and a few politicians find themselves hanging from a lamp post. Revolutions can take on a life of their own. My guess is that big government already has contingency plans in place to thwart any citizen revolt.

The focus of big government is on maintaining control and bending to the will of special interests. Or at least it seems our big government has taken on that persona.
If it was society that gave corporations power then mustn't we accept society wants that? Liberals all the time speak of the common will for the common good. Isn't it society that ought to define that? Or isn't that what's meant when liberals say this?

So I'm not convinced. Society exchanges goods and services for goods and services, not for power. And society doesn't vote for corporations.

Rather, I think, society entrusted government with making laws to protect it and its rights, but government who sold out that power. That's where trust has been misplaced.
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