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Liberal Conceit And The Havoc It Has Wrought On Our Nation
Topic Started: Oct 21 2011, 06:29 PM (1,460 Views)
Pat
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colo_crawdad
Oct 21 2011, 10:51 PM
Pat
Oct 21 2011, 10:40 PM
Why can't people here tell the rest of us what their position is rather than dance around and play games? I don;t get it. It's annoying as hell to me.
Yes sit is, Pat. I repeat my clear statement of opinion posted before Jim started the game playing and dancing. The opening op-ed piece certainly is a condescending and arrogant piece of right wing BS. JMHO
My statement was in general Colo and was spurred by this thread. Place the blame where you want, I really don;t care, I just want less games and more meaningful conversations. Is that too much to want or expect out of a discussion board?
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colo_crawdad
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Pat,

I already agreed with you.
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tomdrobin
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Tough to have a meaningful conversation with someone who has an irrational obsession with blaming Obama and libs for every ill in the country.

Any thinking person realizes the mess our economy is in has taken a decade or two to develop. And, that the huge deficits aren't just about spending by a new president, but spending by a previous president, and tax cuts by a previous president and the loss of tax revenues caused by a drop in the GDP due to recession. A recession BTW which hit bottom in 2008. A recession triggered by a financial meltdown. A meltdown that happened because the previous administration thought the market could regulate itself.

Most economists agree and the historical evidence shows that best way to recover from an economic recession is by massive stimulus. WWII was economically a massive government stimulus program. A program paid for by taxes that today would be considered confiscatory.

No doubt the size of government and government spending needs to be reduced in the long term. But, not in the middle of a recession. That is exactly how the double dip occurred in the great depression. You would think the GOP, and the Tea Party would realize this. I suspect they do. But, defeating Obama and the dems seems to be a higher priority than getting the economy moving.
Edited by tomdrobin, Oct 22 2011, 11:39 AM.
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colo_crawdad
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Tom,

That's probably why folks like that resort to game playing rather than rational discussion.
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Sea Dog
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Perhaps everyone should work in the public sector at some level,
recycling taxpayer dollars, no value added.
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Chris
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And you wonder why this forum is fading?

Jim posts an op ed about the fatally conceited ineffectiveness of Obama and Democrats to resolve a worsening economic crisis. Fatally conceited? See Hayek, The Fatal Conceit: The Errors of Socialism, what Sowell calls the unconstrained vision of the anointed in A Conflict of Visions: Ideological Origins of Political Struggles.

Crawdad attempts to side track the topic with a bit of ad hom sophistry, accused of playing games, accuses Jim of starting it the way Pee Wee Herman retorts I know you are what am I?
When Pat asks generally for the games to stop, Crawdad plays innocent and repeats his ad hom sophistry.

Tom joins in with his own ad hom, poisoning the well, and other fallacies, to which Crawdad responds with a personal attack, which he will plead innocent to no doubt.

And you wonder?


But let's ignore the kerfluffle and address some of the points Tom mixes in with his logical fallacies.

"blaming Obama and libs for every ill in the country...the mess our economy is in has taken a decade or two to develop...."

The OP op ed didn't do that, Tom, it merely looked at what Obama and the Democrats have done about the economic crisis, make it worse. Indeed Bush and the Republicans made it bad, but now, following nearly identical economic policies, it's being made even worse.

"Most economists agree and the historical evidence shows that best way to recover from an economic recession is by massive stimulus."

False, Tom. Most neo-Keynesian economists, like, say, Krugman, agree with that, and are just as disappointed in Obama and the Democrats failure to apply such a policy fully as the OP is that they are are applying it even partially. Let's set aside that most economist, classicals, neoclassicals, monetarists and Austrians, disagree with such a policy, and see how you deal with the fact that Keynes himself disagreed with the neo-Keynesians, as he argued a stimulus would have only a short-term effect but no long-term effect, because...

"WWII was economically a massive government stimulus program."

True, and it and Hoover's and FDR's policies turned a recession into a depression and only served to prolong it. So history shows Keynes correct and the neo-Keynesians like Krugman wrong.

"No doubt the size of government and government spending needs to be reduced in the long term. But, not in the middle of a recession. That is exactly how the double dip occurred in the great depression."

Defend this given that prior to LBJ, Bush and Obama, FDR was the record holder for growing government in size and spending.



Edited by Chris, Oct 22 2011, 11:07 PM.
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Thumper
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Chris, hang around for a while and you too may tire of Millers endless negative hate American links. He tosses them in and then runs only to return with some cutsie little barb. No One takes him serious and he gets not nearly as much as he deserves. In short, he loves to antagonize the F&I members.
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colo_crawdad
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And there are those that cannot get over old grudges and just cannot pass up the opportunity to issue personal insults and will most likely deny doing so.
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Chris
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Thumper
Oct 22 2011, 11:21 PM
Chris, hang around for a while and you too may tire of Millers endless negative hate American links. He tosses them in and then runs only to return with some cutsie little barb. No One takes him serious and he gets not nearly as much as he deserves. In short, he loves to antagonize the F&I members.
Where do you see that, Thumper? I don't see anything in the OP suggestive of hating America, rather the opposite, a love of America and a desire to defend it against an out of control government.
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Chris
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Chris
Oct 22 2011, 11:25 PM
Thumper
Oct 22 2011, 11:21 PM
Chris, hang around for a while and you too may tire of Millers endless negative hate American links. He tosses them in and then runs only to return with some cutsie little barb. No One takes him serious and he gets not nearly as much as he deserves. In short, he loves to antagonize the F&I members.
Where do you see that, Thumper? I don't see anything in the OP suggestive of hating America, rather the opposite, a love of America and a desire to defend it against an out of control government.
Can't show it?

Let's look at your point. Let's assume Jim hates America. Let's assume too that it antagonizes some. It would still be a political position and should not justify personal attacks on him ("No One takes him serious and he gets not nearly as much as he deserves."). What it should justify are arguments against what he posts and says. Yet so far in this thread only Tom attempts that, and that, alone, has led to some discussion of the topic. All the rest is mere kerfuffle.
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