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| Before Lucy, there was Ardi | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 2 2009, 05:58 AM (1,822 Views) | |
| bikemanb | Oct 8 2009, 05:41 AM Post #31 |
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Personally, I think this is all the work of those sneaky Vorlons.
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| ngc1514 | Oct 8 2009, 08:15 AM Post #32 |
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I thought it was the Vogon distructor fleet... |
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| Mike | Oct 8 2009, 09:47 AM Post #33 |
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An interesting conversation guys. Ongoing creation. |
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| ngc1514 | Oct 8 2009, 10:25 AM Post #34 |
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Ongoing creation of what and by what, Mike? |
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| Brewster | Oct 8 2009, 11:01 AM Post #35 |
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Mike, I think if anyone finds one of Eric's purely cooperative species that continues to change, that would be almost conclusive proof of Creation / Intelligent Design.
Edited by Brewster, Oct 8 2009, 11:02 AM.
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| ngc1514 | Oct 8 2009, 10:51 PM Post #36 |
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I think the emphasis on cooperation/competition is leading you astray, Brew. They are both factors, along with climate, geology, natural disasters, plate tectonics, disease, parasites and every other factor in an organism's ecological niche that come into play when you look at the ultimate driving force of evolution - reproductive success. How would you evolution the evolution of any of the social insects without referring to cooperation? Back atcha - show me a species that evolved as a "purely competitive species." |
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| Mike | Oct 9 2009, 12:18 AM Post #37 |
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NG, I believe that what you are observing is God's continued creation. I have no idea what he is creating but I know we are part of the mix while we are still here. And I find it awe inspiring as scientists discover even more of what is being created and evidence of how the process has continued. |
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| Brewster | Oct 9 2009, 12:39 AM Post #38 |
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Eric, I'll concede your last point - no species is purely anything. "Dominantly" would be a much better substitute. You are close to a very valid thought. The end point (objective?) for any competitive species is to dominate its niche, at which stage the logical step is a cooperative society. Unfortunately, when that happens, the end point moves from the figurative sense to the literal one. Social insects developed as cooperative species in order to better to compete. Originally, it was a loose confederation with relatively small numbers, but as it was an extremely successful strategy, larger groups, then hives, then further specialization took place. As each species became the dominant force in its niche, competition (and evolution) all but ceased. From ScienceDaily:
So, to sum up, since they reached that "pinnacle", the step was "irreversible", and no significant further evolution has occurred, for up to 50 million years. Edited by Brewster, Oct 9 2009, 12:40 AM.
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| ngc1514 | Oct 9 2009, 02:59 AM Post #39 |
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The pinnacle was of "social evolution" and not genetic evolution, Brew. And I'm not exactly clear how one would demonstrate one social system is better or worse than another social system. Why are the ants which farm aphids at a lower point in social evolution than ants that farm fungi? From an old article in the NY Times:
http://plantbio.berkeley.edu/~bruns/text/ants2.html We have trouble right here in River City. Unless you can come up with an explanation of how 200 separate species arose without a common ancestor, it is apparent that evolution has been taking place among these attine ants. And I'd wager evolution is still taking place among each species. Your argument is starting to take tones of First Cause arguments where, in a line of infinite regression, someone says, "Here and no further." You seem to be arguing species reach a "Here and no further" point in their evolution without supporting that assertion. We can only look back in time and not forwards, so asserting evolution has stopped is a statement of faith and not fact. The history of the ants shows constant change in the type agriculture in which they partake. There is no reason to believe this trend has ended at our point in time. To an observer with our own perspective who observed these ants at various stages in their evolution , wouldn't each form of agriculture have looked like "a pinnacle of social evolution?"
http://sciencewhynot.wordpress.com/2009/06/13/the-development-of-the-agricultural-systems-used-by-the-attini-tribe-over-the-past-50-million-years/ |
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| Brewster | Oct 9 2009, 03:16 AM Post #40 |
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It is not necessary to look forward to see if a species stopped then started evolving again. If any species ever kept evolving, either socially or biologically, after reaching a "comfort zone", there would be records of that. There are not. Only the disruption of their zone, through climate, vulcanism, etc. moved them to another round of evolution. Your "200 species" proves little, only that they evolved 200 different directions before finding their niches, or their niches split up in 200 slightly different directions. Your article backs up my point:
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