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Before Lucy, there was Ardi
Topic Started: Oct 2 2009, 05:58 AM (1,822 Views)
bikemanb
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Personally, I think this is all the work of those sneaky Vorlons. :tongue:
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ngc1514
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I thought it was the Vogon distructor fleet...
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Mike
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An interesting conversation guys. Ongoing creation.
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ngc1514
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Ongoing creation of what and by what, Mike?
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Brewster
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Mike, I think if anyone finds one of Eric's purely cooperative species that continues to change, that would be almost conclusive proof of Creation / Intelligent Design. popcorn
Edited by Brewster, Oct 8 2009, 11:02 AM.
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ngc1514
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I think the emphasis on cooperation/competition is leading you astray, Brew. They are both factors, along with climate, geology, natural disasters, plate tectonics, disease, parasites and every other factor in an organism's ecological niche that come into play when you look at the ultimate driving force of evolution - reproductive success.

How would you evolution the evolution of any of the social insects without referring to cooperation?

Back atcha - show me a species that evolved as a "purely competitive species."
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Mike
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NG,

I believe that what you are observing is God's continued creation. I have no idea what he is creating but I know we are part of the mix while we are still here.

And I find it awe inspiring as scientists discover even more of what is being created and evidence of how the process has continued.
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Brewster
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Eric, I'll concede your last point - no species is purely anything.

"Dominantly" would be a much better substitute.

You are close to a very valid thought. The end point (objective?) for any competitive species is to dominate its niche, at which stage the logical step is a cooperative society. Unfortunately, when that happens, the end point moves from the figurative sense to the literal one.

Social insects developed as cooperative species in order to better to compete. Originally, it was a loose confederation with relatively small numbers, but as it was an extremely successful strategy, larger groups, then hives, then further specialization took place. As each species became the dominant force in its niche, competition (and evolution) all but ceased.

From ScienceDaily:
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Growing fungi for food has evolved twice in social insects: once in new-world ants about 50 million years ago; and once in old-world termites between 24 and 34 million years ago.

No secondary reversals to the ancestral life style are known in either group, which suggests that the transitions to farming were as drastically innovative and irreversible as when humans made this step about 10,000 years ago.

Why is insect fungus farming interesting? The two independently evolved agricultural systems are impressive examples of mutualistic symbiosis — reciprocally beneficial relationships between different species. Some of the insect societies that evolved fungus farming are pinnacles of social evolution.

So, to sum up, since they reached that "pinnacle", the step was "irreversible", and no significant further evolution has occurred, for up to 50 million years.
Edited by Brewster, Oct 9 2009, 12:40 AM.
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ngc1514
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The pinnacle was of "social evolution" and not genetic evolution, Brew.

And I'm not exactly clear how one would demonstrate one social system is better or worse than another social system. Why are the ants which farm aphids at a lower point in social evolution than ants that farm fungi?

From an old article in the NY Times:
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The leaf-cutters represent the most advanced division of a powerful insect tribe called the attine ants, 200 species that engage in a mutually convenient arrangement with fungi. The ants and the fungi are symbionts, dependent on one another for survival and each having evolved specializations to optimize their intertwined existence.

http://plantbio.berkeley.edu/~bruns/text/ants2.html

We have trouble right here in River City. Unless you can come up with an explanation of how 200 separate species arose without a common ancestor, it is apparent that evolution has been taking place among these attine ants. And I'd wager evolution is still taking place among each species.

Your argument is starting to take tones of First Cause arguments where, in a line of infinite regression, someone says, "Here and no further." You seem to be arguing species reach a "Here and no further" point in their evolution without supporting that assertion. We can only look back in time and not forwards, so asserting evolution has stopped is a statement of faith and not fact.

The history of the ants shows constant change in the type agriculture in which they partake. There is no reason to believe this trend has ended at our point in time. To an observer with our own perspective who observed these ants at various stages in their evolution , wouldn't each form of agriculture have looked like "a pinnacle of social evolution?"

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LOWER AGRICULTURE

The original Attine agriculturalists collected withered plant bits and other debris on which to cultivate an unspecialized fungus that retained close genetic ties to free-living fungal populations (Mueller and Rabeling 2008). The “parasol mushrooms” grown using this method are, so far as is known, entirely capable of free-living existence without the help of the Attine growers. A paraphyletic grade of Escovopsis is known to infect the the paraphyletic fungal food sources used by the Lower Attine; but, like all Attine agriculturalists, they utilize an antibiotic produced by Actinomycete bacteria to control the parasite.

CORAL FUNGUS AGRICULTURE

The “Pilosum Group” of the Attini tribe began to cultivate coral fungi (Pterulaceae) between 10 and 20 million years ago. Recent research indicates that Coral Fungus Agricultural products are infected by a specialized grade of Escovopsis that is derived from an Escovopsis species that infects Lower Agricultural products. This species subsequently gave rise to a clade that switched hosts and began infecting the Higher Attine food sources (Schultz and Brady 2008).

YEAST AGRICULTURE

Unlike typical Attine Mycelial Gardens, Yeast Gardens consist of small, irregularly shaped nodules of fungus growing in the yeast phase. Yeast Agriculture is confined to the “Rimosus Group” and originated sometime between 5 and 25 million years ago. The yeast grown are capable of a free-living, feral existence; however, they grow in the mycelial phase rather than the yeast phase. Indeed, these fungi are only known to grow in the yeast phase when attended by the Attine growers (or depending on conditions in artificial culture). The parasite Escovopsis is unknown to Yeast Agriculture (Schultz and Brady 2008).

HIGHER AGRICULTURE

The transition to higher agriculture and the subsequent origin of leaf cutting are arguably the two most ecologically significant developments in the history of the Attini tribe. The fungi grown by the Higher Attine suggest a significant degree of “domestication”, or modification for life with the Attine. These fungi do not appear capable of free-living existence separable from their growers. And only the fungi grown by the Higher Attine produce “gongylidia”, nutritious swollen hyphal tips that are harvested by the Higher Attine for food(Schultz and Brady 2008).

LEAF CUTTING AGRICULTURE

The development of Leaf Cutting Agriculture (rather than the debris collecting that is used in all the other systems) coincided with marked ecological transitions in South America (5-15 mya). The coincidence of grassland expansion with the development of Leaf Cutting Agriculture supports the hypothesis that early Leaf Cutters may have been Grass Cutting specialists with specializations in Broadleaf Cutting developing later. The most wide ranging Leaf Cutting Agriculturalists originated and expanded within the last 1 to 2 million years. Such a rapid acceleration in diversification and expansion of the Attini tribe underscores the belief that Leaf Cutting Agriculture represents one of the key innovations in Attine history (Mueller and Rabeling 2008).

http://sciencewhynot.wordpress.com/2009/06/13/the-development-of-the-agricultural-systems-used-by-the-attini-tribe-over-the-past-50-million-years/

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Brewster
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It is not necessary to look forward to see if a species stopped then started evolving again.

If any species ever kept evolving, either socially or biologically, after reaching a "comfort zone", there would be records of that. There are not.

Only the disruption of their zone, through climate, vulcanism, etc. moved them to another round of evolution.

Your "200 species" proves little, only that they evolved 200 different directions before finding their niches, or their niches split up in 200 slightly different directions.

Your article backs up my point:
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The development of Leaf Cutting Agriculture (rather than the debris collecting that is used in all the other systems) coincided with marked ecological transitions in South America (5-15 mya).
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