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Does anyone believe in hell anymore?
Topic Started: Aug 16 2009, 04:59 AM (2,834 Views)
ngc1514
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Found this in today's Atlanta paper:

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Many Americans don't believe in hell, but what about pastors?

By Greg Garrison, Religion News Service

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. — Just when it seemed to have cooled off, the topic of hell is back on the front burner — at least for pastors learning to preach about a topic most Americans would rather not talk about.

Only 59% of Americans believe in hell, compared with 74% who believe in heaven, according to the recent surveys from the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life.

"I think it's such a difficult and important biblical topic," said Kurt Selles, director of the Global Center at Samford University's Beeson Divinity School. "There's a big change that's taken place as far as evangelicals not wanting to be as exclusive."

At the recent annual Beeson Pastors School, Selles led two workshops to discuss "Whatever happened to hell?" He asked how many of the pastors had ever preached a sermon on hell. Nobody had, he said.

"I think it's something people want to avoid," he said. "I understand why. It's a difficult topic."

The Rev. Fred Johns, pastor of Brookview Wesleyan Church in Irondale, Ala., said after a workshop discussion of hell that pastors do shy away from the topic of everlasting damnation.

"It's out of fear we'll not appear relevant," he said. "It's pressure from the culture to not speak anything negative. I think we've begun to deny hell. There's an assumption that everybody's going to make it to heaven somehow."

The soft sell on hell reflects an increasingly market-conscious approach, Selles said.

"When you're trying to market Jesus, sometimes there's a tendency to mute traditional Christian symbols," he said. "Difficult doctrines are left by the wayside. Hell is a morally repugnant doctrine. People wonder why God would send people to eternal punishment."

Speakers said the seriousness of Jesus dying for man's sins relates to the gravity of salvation vs. damnation, according to Johns. "If you don't mention God's judgment, you are missing a big part of the Christian gospel," Selles said. "Without wrath, there's no grace."

Pope John Paul II stirred up a debate in 1999 by describing hell as "the state of those who freely and definitely separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy."

Although the pope was reflecting official Roman Catholic teaching, some U.S. evangelicals expressed misgivings about the implication that hell is an abstract separation from God rather than a literal lake of fire as described in the Book of Revelation.

The pope's comments on hell stirred up the ancient debate about whether hell is a real place of burning fire or a state of mind reflecting a dark, cold emptiness and distance from God.

Evangelical Christians have traditionally offered a sterner view of salvation and damnation. A Southern Baptist Home Mission Board study in 1993 estimated that 70% of all Americans are going to hell, based on projected numbers of those who have not had a born-again experience.

Human ideas about hell were still in ferment as the Bible was being written. The theological concept of hell has a rich cultural heritage, according to historian Alan Bernstein, author of The Formation of Hell.

The ancient Hebrews focused on the afterlife following their Babylonian captivity, when they experienced the torment of ungodly enemies who seemed to have an unjustifiably good life on Earth. During the Babylonian exile, Jews were exposed to Zoroastrianism, which asserts there is an eternal struggle between good and evil, with good triumphing in the end.

The Hebrew concept of "Sheol" — the realm of the dead — may also have been influenced by the Greek mythology of Tartarus, a place of everlasting punishment for the Titans, a race of gods defeated by Zeus, Bernstein writes.

From about 300 B.C. to 300 A.D., those influences combined with Hebrew speculation about an eventual comeuppance to the worldly wicked.

In translating the Bible from Hebrew to Greek, the Greeks used the terms Tartarus, Hades and Gehenna. In Greek thought, Hades is not a place of punishment; it's where the dead are separated from the living.

The term Gehenna referred to a ravine outside Jerusalem that was used as a garbage dump. It had once been a place of child sacrifice and became a symbol of pain and suffering, Selles said. As a garbage dump, it was probably often a place of fire as trash was burned, emphasizing the symbolism of the flames of eternal damnation, he said.

Jesus never soft-pedaled the concept of hell, Selles said. "It's not metaphorical in Jesus' mind; it's a real place," he said.

In 410 A.D., St. Augustine defined four states of afterlife: those so good they go to heaven; those so bad they go to hell; those who deserve some relief in their eternal torment; and those who deserve to be lifted out of torment after repenting for their sins. That set the stage for the doctrine of purgatory in 1237 A.D.

The Bible contains a litany of colorful images of hell as both fire and darkness, as in the Gospel of Matthew, which refers to "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" and "the outer darkness" where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."

Either way, Selles said, pretending that hell doesn't exist, or trying to preach around it, short-circuits the Bible.

"This is a doctrine, a teaching, that's being neglected in churches," Selles said. "It needs to be preached. It's part of the Gospel."

--Greg Garrison writes for The Birmingham News.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-08-01-hell-damnation_N.htm


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Banandangees
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I suppose that if you believe the Bible is "the word of God", believe that the writings are "God inspired," believe that Jesus actually existed and was who he said he was and believe the words he spoke then I suppose you'd have to believe that there is some sort of hell out there. Apparently the Koran also speaks of a hell.

I'm not sure how hard or easy it is to stay out of.

When man starts interpreting the Bible in their own form ..... for others to live by (as St. Augustine did) .... then things tend to become more complicated (purgatory). Since I believe that Jesus did exist and was who he said he was, I try to invision a heaven or hell and the way you get to either by what I understand what the Bible's words indicates that Jesus said rather than what any denomination might say.... realizing that the Bible's words were interpreted, transcribed by men like St. Augustine, those who wrote the King James version and scholars who broke it down into modern day language. You have to have a lot of faith in something. But maybe having faith is the tricky part.
Edited by Banandangees, Aug 16 2009, 11:19 PM.
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ngc1514
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Quote:
 
I suppose that if you believe the Bible is "the word of God", believe that the writings are "God inspired," believe that Jesus actually existed and was who he said he was and believe the words he spoke then I suppose you'd have to believe that there is some sort of hell out there.


That's a whole lotta stuff to believe on virtually no evidence, Ban.
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Brewster
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If there were solid evidence, then it wouldn't be a belief, would it?

It would be knowledge - a science.

On Edit: Then, of course, we could have a whole new group of whackos denying THAT, just like Global Warming and Evolution... :hystery:
Edited by Brewster, Aug 17 2009, 01:42 AM.
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Mike
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You might consider hell as you would physics in the natural world NGC. Things seek their own level...

To answer your question...yes. Catholics believe that all those who die in personal mortal sin, as enemies of God, and unworthy of eternal life, will be severely punished by God after death. They will not reside in heaven, but rather in hell...forever removed from the presence of God.
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ngc1514
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Chris (Requiescat in pace) mentioned a book by Bart D. Ehrman called Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why. Serving as an introduction (at a very basic level) to textual criticism and, specifically, textual criticism of the New Testament, we come across the strange fact that there are more textual "variation" in the manuscripts for the New Testament than there are words in the book itself! Ehrman gives a number of between 300,000 and 400,000 variations.

While most of these are minor transcription errors, many are major rewritings of the text over the passage of centuries.

The thrust of his argument is that, lacking the autographic manuscripts - the ones actually written by the authors of the books of the NT - we have no way of knowing what those manuscripts actually said.

Short book and quick read, but well worth the time.

There is no reason solid evidence for SOME parts of the bible couldn't exist without still needing a touch of faith to believe other parts. A young earth, for example, wouldn't necessarily mean that some god created everything, but might lend some support to the tales told in Genesis. It would still take faith to go from the young earth to "In the beginning..."

The problems come when there is NO evidence for so many of the biblical tales.
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ngc1514
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Mike
Aug 17 2009, 02:37 AM
To answer your question...yes. Catholics believe that all those who die in personal mortal sin, as enemies of God, and unworthy of eternal life, will be severely punished by God after death. They will not reside in heaven, but rather in hell...forever removed from the presence of God.
So, for those who don't believe in god on this plane of existence, being "removed from the presence of God" is punishment... how?
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Pope John Paul II stirred up a debate in 1999 by describing hell as "the state of those who freely and definitely separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy."

Does this mean no hellfire and brimstone?

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Mike
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I think this might clarify it a bit more for you... from a Catholic perspective NGC:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm
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ngc1514
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Might make a great science fiction movie, Mike.
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Banandangees
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I'd rather that there be no hell. But for some, there has been "fire and brimstone" here on earth, so why would it be a stretch for us to consider that there very well could be a hell of that type when all is done? But then there is the "love" of a creator, how could a God of love send one of his creation to a hell .... or is it that God doesn't send us to such a place, but rather that we send ourselves by the independent free will that he allowed us? Do we really have avenues of choice that determines our fate? For a Christian (I understand from reading the words of Jesus) that he died for man's sins that we may be saved from a hell and that all we have to do is believe in him as savior. But, must we also follow him and if so, how far and to what extent? Or, must we have "faith" or show faith? The NT says that we can't "earn" our way to heaven by deeds alone; but, that our deeds reflect how much faith we really have. Faith in the absense of scientific proof. If you have facts, evidence and proof..... you don't need faith. But, the NT says "it is by faith that we are justified." If what the Bible says turns out to be true and in the meantime we are waiting for "evidence" (which would negate faith) we may find out just how "hot" hell is. Problem is, we're probably never going to find the evidence we need that would remove all doubt. That's one "hell" of a big conundrum.
Edited by Banandangees, Aug 17 2009, 03:06 PM.
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