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| A foundation that stands the test of time. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 31 2009, 02:31 AM (692 Views) | |
| Mike | May 31 2009, 02:31 AM Post #1 |
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Throughout the past two thousand years of history, Christianity has been defined by a few basic truths. "All" who call themselves Christian have acknowledged these truths as fundamental to the faith. First is the belief in One God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth. Before we can believe in anything else we must first believe in God. Secondly.. the faith of all Christians depends on our belief in the Holy Trinity as the central mystery of Christianity. We believe that the One God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... Three Persons sharing one divine nature. Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, three Divine Persons really distinct and equal in all things, yet they are one and the same God, having one and the same divine nature and substance. The Trinity is a strict mystery because it could not be rationally conceived before the self-revelation of God, and cannot be rationally comprehended [fully understood0 even since its revelation. Another basic tenet of Christianity is the belief that Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, by the power of the Holy Spirit, was born of the Virgin Mary and became man. He suffered and died on the cross so that our sins could be forgiven. He rose from the dead and He ascended into heaven. We also believe in the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting. And furthermore, we believe in the mercy of God - that He will reward us for our good deeds. We Christians also believe He is a God of Justice - that He will punish those who have sinned. Therefore.. in order to be saved we must have faith, we must obey the Commandments of God and of the Church He established, we must have an active prayer life [communicate with and listen to God].. and we must put into practice what we have learned. God chose to reveal Himself to the children of Israel. He inspired the prophets of old to write down and pass on their understanding of who God is and what He wants from us. The history of salvation starts with our first parents, Adam and Eve, using their free will to disobey God by allowing themselves to be tempted to sin by the serpent [Satan]. They and their offspring were cursed with the stain of original sin, which is the absence of God's presence [restored in Baptism]. God provided hope for the future. God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." [Genesis 3:14-15] "The woman" He spoke of was the Virgin Mary. "Her seed" was the promised Messiah, Jesus Christ. "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." [1 Corinthians 15:22] Jesus Christ, the second Adam, who was born of the Virgin Mary, the second Eve, came to redeem us from the sin of the first Adam and to reconcile us with God. In order to fulfill God's plan for our salvation, Jesus chose Twelve Apostles to receive the fullness of the Gospel teachings. He specifically chose Peter to be the first in authority among the apostles. It was upon "this rock" [Peter] that Christ promised He would build His Church. It was to Peter alone that Christ gave the keys of the kingdom of heaven. He also promised Peter infallibility [the inability to err when teaching in matters of faith and morals] when He said, "whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." [Matthew 16:18-19] Jesus Christ intended for His Church to continue teaching the Gospel with His authority until the end of time. Jesus is like the very wise man who built His house [the Church) on a rock (Peter], "...it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock." [Matthew 7:24-27] He promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it when He said, "...you are Peter [Kepha --- Rock], and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it." [Matthew 16:18] In Matthew 18:15-18 Jesus commands His followers to take disputes involving religious matters to the Church for resolution. Matthew 28:19-20 provides the undeniable statement from Jesus that He would be with His Church until the end of time. "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." It is impossible for the Church to apostatize and become doctrinally corrupt, for Jesus promised He would always remain in His Church. St. Paul tells us that the Church is the pillar and ground [bulwark or foundation].. of the truth. [1 Timothy 3:15] These are very strong words used to indicate strength, stability, and permanence. In order to be the pillar and foundation.. Paul speaks of, the Church must be a permanent teacher of truth, not a temporary household built upon sand only to be rebuilt later. The Twelve Apostles chose others to be bishops [Greek meaning "an overseer"]. These bishops were appointed by the Apostles to continue their mission from Christ. The bishop has the authority and power of Christ to administer all the sacraments, including ordination of other men to the priesthood. Apostolic succession was first demonstrated in Acts 1:20-26 when Matthias was chosen to replace Judas. Every validly ordained bishop in the Catholic Church can trace his priesthood authority back through history to one of the Twelve Apostles. This authority has been passed on in an unbroken chain of ordinations by the laying-on of hands from the Apostles to their successors, the bishops, and to their successors, other bishops, and so on down the line throughout all of Catholic Christian history. The bishops of the Catholic Church are the successors to the Apostles in a continuous line of apostolic succession. The Catholic Church has existed continuously since the time of the Apostles, and it was founded as an earthly organization upon Peter, the rock. The ancient Church is in fact the same Catholic Church that we see today. No other Christian church can trace its authority unbroken back to the original apostolic source other than the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church established by Jesus Christ. We can all be confident that the original Deposit of Faith was carefully handed down to us through "Apostolic Succession". We can also be sure that Jesus Christ kept His promises.. that His Church survived, and that it will continue to proclaim the fullness of truth until the end of time. If you are on the outside, looking with a wary eye in, know this...the light is always on and the door is always open. Trust your Savior and Creator, and know that they would have never led you astray. Sure a few mortal men have failed in their callings, but the foundation was laid solid and still stands. |
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| Deleted User | May 31 2009, 03:18 AM Post #2 |
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"First is the belief in One God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth. Before we can believe in anything else we must first believe in God." I've never understood that. I mean, belief is belief, it doesn't require reason, so why do you need to believe one thing and rest the rest upon that foundation. Why not just believe anything you please? Another question, if you have this belief, why do you need to steal someone else's words without credit as it they are your own? http://www.transporter.com/Apologia/FullnessofTruth.htm |
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| ngc1514 | May 31 2009, 03:41 AM Post #3 |
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Throughout the past two thousand years of history, Islam has been defined by a few basic truths. "All" who call themselves Muslims have acknowledged these truths as fundamental to the faith.
http://www.religion-cults.com/Islam/islam3.html So... the problem, as I see it, is how does one test whether one set of tenets is true while the other isn't or, perhaps both are equally false. Or both equally true? How do you know? |
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| Mike | Jun 1 2009, 12:43 AM Post #4 |
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The Five Basic Tenets: 1-There is only "one God", Allah, creator of the whole universe, who is just, compassionate, and merciful. The absolute unity and power resides in God. Creator of life and death, the guide to righteous, the friend and protector of the sick and the poor. He chastises eternally the infidels to Hell, and he rewards the faithful with eternal Heaven. -"Allah", "The God", comes from "Al" ("The"), and "Illah" ("God")... not just "a God", but "The God", for there is only one. Believe in "Angels", who intercede with Allah for the forgiveness of the faithful. 2- "Muhammad", was the last of the great prophets. Jewish prophets and Jesus were his predecessors. 3- The "Koran", was the last of the sacred books, which include also the Torah, Psalms, and Gospels of Jesus. 4- "Life on Earth", is a test and only a preparation for the eternal life to come. the "faithful" are those who adore Allah, praise the Prophet Muhammad, obey the Koran doing good deeds, and fulfill the 5 pillars of Islam. The Koran forbids representation of human and animal figures. It denounces usury, games of chance, alcohol, pork... "pride" is a cardinal sin. 5- The "Final Judgment": The faithful will go to eternal Heaven, and the infidels to eternal Hell, with the vividly rewards and punishments recorded in the Koran.[/quote] http://www.religion-cults.com/Islam/islam3.html So... the problem, as I see it, is how does one test whether one set of tenets is true while the other isn't or, perhaps both are equally false. Or both equally true? How do you know? ______________________________________________________________ I suppose from a human perspective, when you ask how do you know...the word "Know" has to be examined. Yet if we were to consider the possibility that knowledge is in reality a series of experiences pointing towards an uncertain conclusion, then all human knowledge is subjective. And anything more must come from another source. The human experience is different for all of us. We share some similarities...birth, consciousness, existence, senses, experiences, diminishing senses, physical death. And after death their are two possibilities to consider. 1. physical death resulting in non existence 2. some form of survival not observable in life. All of us are going to experience physical death and the destruction of our human form. Nothing physical appears to be permanent. And while observing our own life experiences and those around us, we can get a pretty good grasp of our physical abilities while alive and how we consciously interact with that experience...for about 75 revolutions of the earth around our sun. Being naturally curious, from the beginning of time our ancestors up to ourselves pondered three questions. Where did we come from and once this experience is over, what is next? And where did all of this come from? And yet we have at out disposal a consciousness, a mind that needs developed, a physical body that matures at a somewhat general pace, instincts, senses [that have been proven to be limited in scope], and 75 revolutions of the planet we inhabit around the sun to come to some conclusion of the above three questions. We know that most people believe that there must be something beyond this physical life. And we know by excavating our ancestors graves, that most of them believed the same as we find tools and artifacts designed for the living buried with them. We also know that throughout history, a variety of religions have sprang up that people relate to. And all religions address the three questions. They approach it by including a creator-God-Gods, some information that describes in human terms what this God-Gods-creator is, it's relationship with us and the universe around us, and answers to the three questions. Some people ascribe to to the concept that once physical life ceases...then that is it. Nothing more. Most people ascribe to the premise that this is not all that there is, and go about in a manner determining what else is there. To varying degrees of success. Any comments at this point Ngc? {I abbreviated your nickname and might simply refer to you as "N" in the future if that is ok. |
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| Deleted User | Jun 1 2009, 05:29 AM Post #5 |
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"I suppose from a human perspective, when you ask how do you know...the word "Know" has to be examined. Yet if we were to consider the possibility that knowledge is in reality a series of experiences pointing towards an uncertain conclusion, then all human knowledge is subjective...." About as much blather as I can handle in one sitting. "Know" has to be considered? Yes, because some, like you, Mike, stretch it metaphorically to include subjective belief. "the possibility that knowledge is in reality a series of experiences pointing towards an uncertain conclusion" Huh? What on earth are you trying to say with these words. "in reality" contradicts "possibility" and are wholly extraneous attempts to add weight to words that carry none. That leaves us with, according to your musings, knowledge is experiences, or uncertain conclusions, or what? Knowledge is that which by reason we can show is true. A key word in that definition is "we". Knowledge is not simply what one individual subjectively claims to know, but what he can show to others in such a way that if they follow the same empirical or reasonable steps, they too arrive at the same conclusion. That is what is meant by being objective. "...then all human knowledge is subjective...." Assume that assertion is true. Then all true is subjective. But that leads to a contradiction when my subjective truth disagrees with yours. Thus, your assertion, by the logical law on non-contradiction, is false. Plato had Socrates argue that point with Pythagoras 1000s of years ago. But I doubt you will follow that logic. |
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| ngc1514 | Jun 1 2009, 12:06 PM Post #6 |
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NGC is the usual abbreviation for Dreyer's New General Catalog of Nebula and Clusters of Stars published in 1888. 1514 is a planetary nebula in Taurus that remains one of my favorite objects to view through a telescope. Calling me "N" is fine. Napoleon used a large, elaborate N as his signature, but I probably won't be taking my Grand Armee into Russia anytime soon. My main comment is you ignored the question. The question was set up with 2 sets of tenets: your with which you opened this thread and the 5 basic tenets of Islam which I posted. The question was:
We dipped a toe into epistemology and how we know. Not a very satisfying dip since it seemed to quickly degenerate into more of a discussion of what some people believe which, of course, isn't the same as knowing. This was followed by a digression into the burial habits of our forefathers and the idea that something - as yet undefined - survives death. Fascinating concept for which there exists no objective evidence. What you didn't do is explain why you selected one set of tenets over another. Was that a rational decision and, if so, how was it made? Why would someone select your particular set of tenets over those of all the other religions man has fabricated over the last few thousand years? How do you test or do you just flip a coin? Doesn't seem a way to guarantee your eternal salvation. And please... a favor. I think most of us reading and writing in this area are capable of following points and understanding questions without having to quote entire posts. If not, the original posting is just a short scroll away. Short quotes of the germane point can aid in clarification. Quoting entire posts deadens the exchange. Edited by ngc1514, Jun 1 2009, 12:08 PM.
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| Deleted User | Jun 1 2009, 06:22 PM Post #7 |
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"How do you know?" A question I've been asking Mike for years. |
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| ngc1514 | Jun 1 2009, 08:44 PM Post #8 |
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I think Mike hit the nail squarely on the head when he wrote:
Behind most religions you can catch the stench of the fear of death. There is also a strong sense of egocentrism in Christianity that tells each believer god thinks him or her SO important he sent himself down to not-really-die-on-the-cross to protect them from the hell he created and to where he's planning on sending most of the teeming billions born - through no fault of their own - on this vale of tears. Breezy and others have already gloated on these pages about our - yours and mine - future eternity in hell; Christianity boiled down to the basics is essentially "I'm going to heaven.... and YOU'RE not!" It's not a pretty picture. I'm interested in seeing if the Padre stops dancing around the question and offers some insight in how, when confronted with literally millions of religions (Wiki states that, "The actual number of distinct Protestant denominations is hard to calculate, but has been estimated to be over thirty thousand.") created over the history of man, one decides on one over another. |
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| Mike | Jun 2 2009, 01:21 AM Post #9 |
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Good questions N. I'll begin my answer with this. That God has introduced Himself to all regions of the world and to all peoples. I will not suggest that I know to what degree or how it might have influenced some writings and religious observances elsewhere... while at the same time He was interacting with His chosen people and later when He became flesh and the Savior of all His people. This is one of God's mysteries. I was born into a family of Catholics. Luck of the draw I suppose. I was not particularly observant as a youth, and in fact never had much immersion until I was in college and engaged. The girl I was to marry came from a very.. very observant background, and along with her brother were the source of my immersion into my faith. I was a little bit aware of other religions such as Islam and Hinduism through a comparative religions class. But not inspired to join any. When I met God through His church was when I knew that I was on the right course. And as our relationship deepened, I have never had a single doubt about what I now profess as the truth. I don't think my first hand knowledge is different or special. I might compare my story to one of the early Christians who saw with their own eyes Jesus Christ perform miracles. And rise from the dead and later ascend into he heavens. None of this makes since if one limits his view or believes that it is impossible. That it lies outside the laws of physics. God is not limited in any such capacity and there have in fact been folks like me who have witnessed the Lord and untold numbers throughout history. As I practiced my faith and became a tool of the Lord, there was never a reason to consider another form of religion. God and His church were already in my life. My relationship with Him and conversations are in no way illusions. I have witnessed cause and affect. |
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| Deleted User | Jun 2 2009, 01:30 AM Post #10 |
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"I'll begin my answer with this. That God has introduced Himself to all regions of the world and to all peoples. I will not suggest that I know to what degree or how it might have influenced some writings and religious elsewhere... while at the same time He was interacting with His chosen people and later when He became flesh and the Savior of all His people." You must have read Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal. It's a delightful tale of the wanderings of Jesus before he took up his cross. I see you still haven't answered Eric's question, why Christianity and not another religion in terms of what you know. |
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