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A miracle
Topic Started: May 19 2009, 02:54 AM (554 Views)
Mike
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Chris
May 20 2009, 01:22 AM
Mike
May 20 2009, 12:42 AM
Chris
May 19 2009, 08:44 PM
So God violates his own laws?
I don't know if He does or not. He has no restrictions and miracles do occur.
And given that a miracle is a violation of the laws of nature, and God causes miracles and created those laws, it is then reasonable to assume He violates His own laws. But to conclude this would imply a chaotic and not an orderly universe, chaotic in that it is not governed by laws but God's whims.
No that doesn't make sense at all Chris. it is not reasonable to assume anything about God other than what he has already told you. I think you keep trying to hold God to some form of physical standards or laws. He is beyond all limitations.

Chaotic Universe? Well if you mean that by God working within the universe that this causes chaos, I disagree. You assumption should be that God's hand controls the universe and at times it appears to have some natural order to it. But as we can witness through His miracles, natural order is an illusion on our part.

Let's take the example of time for instance. We use the terms hours, minutes, seconds, years etc and imply they represent a constant. But they don't. Time is subject to distortion.
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"it is not reasonable to assume anything about God other than what he has already told you."

He hasn't told us anything, for one, and for another it is a reasonable conclusion. Your job is to show it, my inference, is unreasonable, not merely say it is.

"I think you keep trying to hold God to some form of physical standards or laws."

To His laws. If He exists and He created everything, then He created natural law(s).

"He is beyond all limitations."

That's a limitation.

"Chaotic Universe? Well if you mean that by God working within the universe that this causes chaos, I disagree."

No, a miracle is a violation of the laws of physics, nature, thus it would be God working outside His own laws. That, behaving on whim, without law, would be chaotic.

"But as we can witness through His miracles, natural order is an illusion on our part."

So God created nature to deceive us?

"Time is subject to distortion."

And that has to do with the price of turnips what?
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ngc1514
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A miracle?

Every copy of the Book of Mormon has signed and sworn testimony from 11 witnesses that the golden plates existed.

Quote:
 
THE TESTIMONY OF THREE WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Quote:
 
THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.
Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith


Is this sufficient evidence to prove the Book of Mormon is true?

If not, why not?

And, if not, why is this less evidentiary than the accounts supporting your 17th century "miracle?"
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