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New monkey discovered
Topic Started: Sep 13 2012, 04:43 PM (1,715 Views)
kungfucolin
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Our current ecology does not represent some sort of 'finished product'. evolution by definition is a process in which species are continually adapting, and it just so happens that this takes a very long time.

In future eons, perhaps dolphins WILL develop gills and the organs to go with them, or perhaps they will develop hardened skin and articulating joints, and actually emerge as a land species.

In response to your last post, environments are not homogeneous. is it any surprise that organisms that developed in high pressure, high temperature environments have different characteristics 600 million years later than organisms that developed in low pressure, low temperature environments and everything in between?

*For what it's worth, I actually quite like creation myths. In fact my favourite one is Tolkiens; The music of the Ainur.

I just want to draw a clear distinction between 'how' questions and 'why' questions. 'How' questions are scientific, 'why' questions are philosophical, and even though philosophy is more my domain than science is (It's what I studied at uni, after all), this conversation is about the scientific, not the philosophical.
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kungfucolin
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I think I'm going to have to change 'LVL 99 Photomancer' to 'Thread Killer'
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Gabrius
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*can't sleep, decides to log into FGM for a little "lite reading"*

Hey guys what's happening in he-

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SoulEnder
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The Bard
Yeahhh, I'm keeping my mouth shut on this one. Whooboy.
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I hang 'em on their own words--hooked on phonics
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kungfucolin
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I don't understand the problem..

Whether or not a god exists is a contentious question - one that is not being discussed.

Whether or not humans are primates is not contentious.
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Gabrius
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I'm a lizardman, DAMMIT.
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Suicide Snowman
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Good god*! What happened in here?

"It seems someone captured it," says Hart, "it probably ended up in the cooking pot."

Now I feel bad for making fun of his stupid face.

*Chill, guys. It's just an expression
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Resulli
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Zooba.
You know there is a theory out there that says the universe is nothing more than randomness and chaos and the fact that things are happening the way they are in this world with perceived "order" is simply because all the randomness in the universe has come together at this point to take on a specific form that we, as a part of that form, believe what is and isn't logical or orderly simply because we aren't within the scope that allows us to see past the form we have taken.

Many people rely so much on logic to tell people what they believe in or how things are that it's honestly quite surprising. People don't often consider the possibility that it doesn't have to make sense to be true, that there absolutely needs to be proof for it to be real, that evidence and logic make things how they are.

A crackpot theory may be a crackpot theory but that doesn't make it any more or less possible of being true, despite whether it's logical or has evidence. The fact that people rely so much on logic and order is astounding. People say that something with no logic or proof behind it is merely imagination but is it not possible that imagination is simply our potential to think outside the steel box that is "logic"?

Just a thought. Didn't read the WHOLE thread but I read a good amount of it and thought I'd put that in there.
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Luchalma
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We just go with what works, man. Science, logic, reasoning. They work.


Fuck math though.
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HAWT
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Gabrius
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I'm going to propose a new theory:

You are all characters in a video game that I am currently playing.

...regret taking that red pill yet?
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kungfucolin
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Resulli
Sep 14 2012, 11:31 AM
The fact that people rely so much on logic and order is astounding.
I'm more astounded by the willingness in adults with fully functioning brains to deny logic.
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Luchalma
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You're blowing my mind Zach.
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HAWT
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Gabrius
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Socrates
 
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.











(that's us dude)
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kungfucolin
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Gabrius
Sep 14 2012, 11:43 AM
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing."

-Socrates








(that's us dude)
But It seems like this is being used to assert that all positions have equal plausibility. That's just not accurate.
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James
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Gabrius
Sep 14 2012, 11:41 AM
I'm going to propose a new theory:

You are all characters in a video game that I am currently playing.

...regret taking that red pill yet?
You're doing a fantastic job on my end then. Keep up the good work, boss.
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Resulli
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Zooba.
kungfucolin
Sep 14 2012, 11:43 AM
Resulli
Sep 14 2012, 11:31 AM
The fact that people rely so much on logic and order is astounding.
I'm more astounded by the willingness in adults with fully functioning brains to deny logic.
Well I was never meaning to imply one should deny that logic exists and that it shouldn't be used but when thinking about something as uncertain as 'the universe' is it really the best we can do to hide within logic and proof? If we're trying to discover new territory in knowledge, about anything, why is logic the only thing we want to follow? If humans did not use imagination they would be a very bored race of beings. Much of our entertainment comes from things that don't follow "real world" logic. Look at video games like Kirby where the world doesn't follow ANY of the laws of physics or physiology. If the imagination didn't exist, that never would have happened because we'd be too wrapped up in what we can see.

Now to bring that into light: What we see and know we count as "logical" but I believe it is entirely possible that logic itself is just another pattern found within the chaos that could just as easily disappear completely in the blink of an eye due to the chaotic nature of things.

There are some things you can't measure but people view it as true simply because of logic such as how love is found, whether the soul exists or not, why a method of thinking and lifestyle works for one person but not another even though everything was essentially the same, how twins seem to have a "mind link" of sorts and can feel each other's pain (supposedly)

There's a lot of things logic can never truly explain but people rely on logic to try to explain it anyway.
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Gabrius
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kungfucolin
Sep 14 2012, 11:46 AM
But It seems like this is being used to assert that all positions have equal plausibility. That's just not accurate.
Does it?

...because I'm pretty sure I was just quoting Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure there jester::



BUT.... if you really want to challenge the philosopher's wisdom - that statement has held true for longer than most theories and "logic".

Like I've said countless times before, our distant descendants will probably be laughing at the "cavemen" who believed that an explosion of swirling spacedust created everything, FTL travel is impossible, etc ad nauseum.
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Gabrius
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Serothius
Sep 14 2012, 11:47 AM
Gabrius
Sep 14 2012, 11:41 AM
I'm going to propose a new theory:

You are all characters in a video game that I am currently playing.

...regret taking that red pill yet?
You're doing a fantastic job on my end then. Keep up the good work, boss.
All my Zachs....



...get the very best hacks :P
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kungfucolin
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@Resulli.. christ.

I can see your heart is in the right place, but how can I say this in the most diplomatic way possible? Many of the 'mysteries of the universe' that you refer to are not mysteries at all, when you have the right education.

As for your views concerning logic - I really think you could benefit greatly by taking a critical thinking course and introduction to logic in analytical philosophy.

There are just so many problematic parts of your post that to itemise everything and explain it for you it would seem like I am trying to tear you a new asshole. This is not my wish in the slightest.

Now, I'm not meaning to suggest that you're completely uneducated - but I can assure you that the right kind of education could alleviate many of those concerns - and I just know that this sounds condescending and patronizing, so I am honestly sorry about that.

Gabrius
Sep 14 2012, 11:58 AM
if you really want to challenge the philosopher's wisdom
Bro, Actually, Socrates is promoting doubt. Doubt is the opposite of faith, it is not I who challenges that position.

I consider you all my friends, so perhaps I should just stop there.
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Gabrius
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kungfucolin
Sep 14 2012, 12:01 PM
Gabrius
Sep 14 2012, 11:58 AM
if you really want to challenge the philosopher's wisdom
Bro, Actually, Socrates is promoting doubt. Doubt is the opposite of faith, it is not I who challenges that position.

I consider you all my friends, so perhaps I should just stop there.
Doubt should be a part of EVERYONE'S life - you should never accept anything without question. ANYTHING.

ESPECIALLY religion. Blind faith is one of the most dangerous things in the world.

Science also needs to be doubted. If everything has already been figured out, then there's really no purpose to... anything. The scientists can all retire, and we can take solace in the fact that we have it all figured out.

...blind faith might be scary, but that thought is even more frightening to me.
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Resulli
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Zooba.
kungfucolin
Sep 14 2012, 12:01 PM
@Resulli.. christ.

I can see your heart is in the right place, but how can I say this in the most diplomatic way possible? Many of the 'mysteries of the universe' that you refer to are not mysteries at all, when you have the right education.

As for your views concerning logic - I really think you could benefit greatly by taking a critical thinking course and introduction to logic in analytical philosophy.

There are just so many problematic parts of your post that to itemise everything and explain it for you it would seem like I am trying to tear you a new asshole. This is not my wish in the slightest.

Now, I'm not meaning to suggest that you're completely uneducated - but I can assure you that the right kind of education could alleviate many of those concerns - and I just know that this sounds condescending and patronizing, so I am honestly sorry about that.

Gabrius
Sep 14 2012, 11:58 AM
if you really want to challenge the philosopher's wisdom
Bro, Actually, Socrates is promoting doubt. Doubt is the opposite of faith, it is not I who challenges that position.

I consider you all my friends, so perhaps I should just stop there.
Oh I'm sure there's much out there I could learn and I know I am quite uneducated in the philosophical sciences (despite my interest in them) and I know there's a lot I just said that doesn't properly explain what I'm thinking.

Words cannot explain the thoughts that go through my head and I've never been good at putting these wordless thoughts into words, so what I said is probably more nonsensical than it needs to be purely for that reason.

However I will never believe that logic is the go-to with absolution. To me pushing something aside simply because it's illogical is silly. It's more than a fantasy when I say I believe the realm of imagination, conveyed often through books, video games and TV shows, is a view into another world. I truly believe in the possibility of the "Matrix" even if it's not specifically what the movie portrays but the same concept has merit. How is it that so many bad things can happen to us yet it never does? I believe it's because of the fact that every decision we make changes our path and we are only conscious of the path that has us living the longest but the other possibilities branch out into their own "timelines" where the other possibilities come true.

Almost got hit by a car

V

Got hit and died ----- Got hit but lived ----- Got hit but is permanently paralyzed

V

Someone crashed the funeral ----- "Cry Thunder" was played at your funeral ----- No one shows up for your funeral

etc

One instance splits the universe into every possibility you can think of and then some. Why are we only conscious of the path that we live through or teaches us a life lesson? Who knows? Could it be a greater being at work or is the universe a mechanism meant to keep our minds in place?

....Most of that is rambling so you don't have to take everything as on-topic but this is my basic thought processes on the matter.
Edited by Resulli, Sep 14 2012, 12:27 PM.
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kungfucolin
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Gabrius
Sep 14 2012, 12:12 PM
Science also needs to be doubted.
It's funny you should say that, because the very definition of a good (and therefore true) scientific theory is that it is falsifiable.

Falsifiable means that there definitely exists a way to prove the theory false, and despite this condition, it has not been falsified.

If there is no way to disprove a theory, the theory is not scientific.

Therefore, ALL science is actually built on managing doubt - to discover truth.
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Gabrius
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kungfucolin
Sep 14 2012, 12:22 PM
Gabrius
Sep 14 2012, 12:12 PM
Science also needs to be doubted.
It's funny you should say that, because the very definition of a good (and therefore true) scientific theory is that it is falsifiable.

Falsifiable means that there definitely exists a way to prove the theory false, and despite this condition, it has not been falsified.

If there is no way to disprove a theory, the theory is not scientific.

Therefore, ALL science is actually built on managing doubt - to discover truth.
The Atheist and the Christian agree on how the world should think.

...I told y'all, that red pill was a huge mistake jester::
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Gabrius
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Honestly, you know what astounds me?

I'm only 33 years old, and the science that kids are learning today is very different than what I learned back in the day.

Only 8 planets in our solar system? We actually have a pretty good idea of what caused a mass extinction during the reign of the dinosaurs?

Mind blowing stuff, man.
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kungfucolin
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The fact that despite being a Christian, you are not a young earth creationist gladdens my heart.
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In order to determine whether there is anything we can know with certainty, Descartes says that we first have to doubt everything we know.


The reason that what you're saying sounds condescending and patronizing is because it is Colin. You're asserting that everything Resulli or the rest of us has been taught is completely false and everything you've been taught is complete fact. Remember everything that you know is just what another person has told you to believe in. Maths, Science, these arn't laws created by the universe these are laws created by man.
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kungfucolin
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HeLeeham
Sep 14 2012, 12:32 PM
The reason that what you're saying sounds condescending and patronizing is because it is Colin.
Yep. I'm an asshole.
I just happen to be an educated asshole.
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Gabrius
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kungfucolin
Sep 14 2012, 12:31 PM
The fact that despite being a Christian, you are not a young earth creationist gladdens my heart.
Bububububu God put the dinosaur bonesez in teh earf to test our faithz!!!

As silly as some Atheists can sound when defending their beliefs, religious zealots are on a whole different level ;)
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Resulli
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Zooba.
I want to assert that I don't mind a bit of heated debate, Colin, so don't feel like you'll be alienating me with whatever you say. Always taking an opportunity to learn something new, even if only through debate, is a good thing. As long as you don't totally disregard what I say I'm totally cool with a debate. jester::

When I said "proof of humans evolving from monkeys" I was taking into consideration that despite what scientists have found there is no present-time connection that could quell any doubts about the possibility. Many people who don't believe they evolved from monkeys (not counting the ones who just don't WANT to believe it because they think monkeys are some sort of lower life form and we couldn't possibly have come from that) discount the evidence that's been gathered because it's seen as too old to get any actual proof from. Note that these are not my beliefs specifically but things I have heard people say or imply.
Edited by Resulli, Sep 14 2012, 12:44 PM.
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