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New monkey discovered
Topic Started: Sep 13 2012, 04:43 PM (1,716 Views)
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kungfucolin
Sep 13 2012, 11:10 PM
I'd just like to state for the record that a discussion on the origin of species is not a debate about religion.
Indeed. I wasn't trying to imply that it was. Just that subjects such as evolution have a habbit of turning into a "you calling ma god?" sort of thing.
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kungfucolin
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Yes, I definitely concede that talking about evolution can get turned into talking about religion very quickly - that's absolutely not my intention though.
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Luchalma
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HeLeeham
Sep 13 2012, 11:07 PM
Someone cannot be wrong or right for believing in something that is only a theory.
Well, it's not a theory. Not in the way the word is used regularly. It's as backed up by evidence as the idea the Earth is round.

But in the end, it doesn't really matter what any of us believe. I come here to talk with you guys about games and Baja Blast and lotioning asses.
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Prealienking
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HeLeeham
Sep 13 2012, 10:44 PM
Cool. To me that all seems far too coincidental. Just the way the human body works to me screams creation not development. Evolution especially to me seems far to coincidental. They say evolution happened over millions of years. Humans cannot mate with monkeys so over these millions of years it seems very coincidental to me that 2 monkeys at the exact same time would evolve into 2 species that are able to mate. That's just one of my issues. I don't want to create a "religion vs. science" berate over here though we've seen how these turn out.
I agree with you here. I'm not a big fan of chance as it is, but something that improbably probable is just...it's just a bit beyond my comprehension. I tend to stick to creation as well...

But sometimes I wonder about the possibility of our reality just being a reality within the creation of a greater form for the entertainment of other greater forms...kind of like we're an MMORPG or a Skyrim towards a greater power, which in turn perpetuates my occasional solipsistic mindframe.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Either way, I can't afford to get into a religious debate, considering the belief system I find myself standing behind the most has no scientific or scriptural backing short of "it just makes sense to me."
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kungfucolin
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Just Arucard
Sep 13 2012, 11:24 PM
Well, it's not a theory. Not in the way the word is used regularly.
And this is correct.

For some reason, people equivocate "I have a theory that ..." with the actual scientific definition of the word theory.

The common use of the word theory is actually weaker than a hypothesis, but a scientific 'theory' is the point you reach way way down the track after you have shit tons of evidence.

ie: The theory of relativity
The theory of kinetic motion

Words have precise meanings in science. For example, 'theory', 'law', and 'hypothesis' don't all mean the same thing. Outside of science, you might say something is 'just a theory', meaning it's supposition that may or may not be true. In science, a theory is an explanation that generally is accepted to be true.

A hypothesis is an educated guess, based on observation.
A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing.

A law generalizes a body of observations. At the time it is made, no exceptions have been found to a law. Scientific laws explain things, but they do not describe them, whereas theories do describe things.
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Even in science theory doesn't mean proven. Evolution hasn't been proven. It's a theory that has a hundred more theory's to back it up. It's as none proven as the big bang theory.
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Prealienking
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Have you of you ever thought about this, or am I alone?

How would you react to receiving the knowledge that we are just a smaller realm created by a larger realm? How would society react? Do you think we, as a civilization, would be able to continue on? Mass suicides?

Most specifically, how would you all react?

Do you think you would fall under the category that believes that reality is just what our brain perceives it to be? That we see, and we hear, and we feel, therefore it is, despite the knowledge that we, by terms we've given to our own entertainment, aren't real.

Would you not be able to cope with that? Would you feel like you've lost any purpose in your life?


oooooooorrrrrr

Maybe, you find more purpose in your life. If we were created for the entertainment of a higher being, then that means that, in some form, you actually have a designated purpose for existing. You exist to entertain a higher being...I'm sure some people would find comfort in that...


Also, if we did exist as a form of drama/comedy/romance for a greater universe, just think about all the great things that have happened throughout time. Did a bunch of greater beings throw a party to watch The American Revolution special? Did greater beings cry with us during 9/11, much like we feel empathy for characters during our own movies and TV shows? I wonder if our movies, TV shows, and video games just come off as cheap knock offs of the greater being's stuff, much like we have TV shows that create false brands based on real brands(most notably on Nickelodeon).

I don't know what has my mind rattling with these thoughts, but damn did you all bring it all out.
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Prealienking
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I should write a book.
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If we discovered we were the tools of a higher being we would probably split into 2 groups. Those that seek to worship these beings and those that seek to discover and study them.
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kungfucolin
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HeLeeham
Sep 13 2012, 11:46 PM
Even in science theory doesn't mean proven.
It does however mean that it's not a case of belief or non-belief. It's a case of acceptance or non-acceptance.

If you want me to point to laws that support the theory of evolution, let's talk about the laws of thermodynamics.

wiki
 
The laws of thermodynamics are:
Zeroth law of thermodynamics: If two systems are in thermal equilibrium with a third system, they must be in thermal equilibrium with each other. This law helps define the notion of temperature.

First law of thermodynamics: Heat and work are forms of energy transfer. Energy is invariably conserved but the internal energy of a closed system changes as heat and work are transferred in or out of it. Equivalently, perpetual motion machines of the first kind are impossible.

Second law of thermodynamics: The entropy of any isolated system not in thermal equilibrium always increases. Isolated systems spontaneously evolve towards thermal equilibrium—the state of maximum entropy of the system—in a process known as "thermalization". Equivalently, perpetual motion machines of the second kind are impossible.

Third law of thermodynamics: The entropy of a system approaches a constant value as the temperature approaches zero. The entropy of a system at absolute zero is typically zero, and in all cases is determined only by the number of different ground states it has. Specifically, the entropy of a pure crystalline substance at absolute zero temperature is zero.


Let's talk about the first two.

I'll paraphrase them:
1. Energy is always conserved, it only transforms, never disappears.
2. The universe constantly moves toward entropy.

This means that according to scientific law,
The universe in previous states had a lower entropic value, but the actual energy total was precisely equivalent.

that means = big bang.
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Prealienking
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That's a very good point.

(note: I'm referring to us being withing a greater form equivalent of a game or TV show, literally with us within it. Not like an alien race watching us, as evident in South Park. Just thought I should clarify.[/spoiler]
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WelcomedDread
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Praise The Sun
So an advanced version of the Truman Show?
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Prealienking
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Like, we just found this new type of monkey.....

What if this monkey was added in an update...?
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Prealienking
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WelcomedDread
Sep 14 2012, 12:00 AM
So an advanced version of the Truman Show?
Yes, actually, that's a fantastic way of putting it.


I can't believe I forgot about the Truman Show, man. The way my mind works sometimes. I can remember that Leviathan was a book written by Thomas Hobbes to tell about his theory of social contract and how people should never revolt a government, since tyranny is better than nature...but I can't remember a movie that directly connects to the bullshit I'm currently spewing.
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WelcomedDread
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Praise The Sun
Well, I want a patch that adds more redheads to my village.

MAKE IT HAPPEN!
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Prealienking
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I wonder if we're being controlled by the greater version of EA or the greater version of Valve...
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kungfucolin
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.. and the guy talking about science gets invariably passed over

*throws his hands up*
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DSU
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DATABASE DATABASE
You ever read the things here King? :P

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealLife

I think you'll enjoy it! ;)
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IT'S TIME FOR DATABASE
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Yes Colin that is a good example of a theory. One of the many theory's of the universe' beginning. Being the most popular theory doesn't make it the correct one.
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WelcomedDread
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kungfucolin
Sep 14 2012, 12:06 AM
.. and the guy talking about science gets invariably passed over

*throws his hands up*
It's okay, buddy. We may not have the same views, but I'll share my blueberry muffins with you any day.
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kungfucolin
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HeLeeham
Sep 14 2012, 12:07 AM
Yes Colin that is a good example of a theory. One of the many theory's of the universe' beginning. Being the most popular theory doesn't make it the correct one.
But I'm not talking about the popularity of any particular theory or law. I am talking about compatibility with mathematics, which is arguably the most pure science we have.
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Prealienking
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DSUltimateForm
Sep 14 2012, 12:07 AM
You ever read the things here King? :P

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealLife

I think you'll enjoy it! ;)
I'll favorite it, but I should really be getting to bed, man.

I've got to be ready for school tomorrow. AP Government is calling. I've got to show up and be the best, otherwise somebody else would be the best.....


and we can't have that.
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kungfucolin
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Concluding our universe started with the big bang based on the laws of thermodynamics is a syllogism.

In order to dispute it, you need to either dispute the premises, or assert that the inference from premises to conclusion lacks sequacity.

One of those options flies in the face of observation, and the other flies in the face of maths.
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DSU
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DATABASE DATABASE
Prealienking
Sep 14 2012, 12:09 AM
DSUltimateForm
Sep 14 2012, 12:07 AM
You ever read the things here King? :P

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealLife

I think you'll enjoy it! ;)
I'll favorite it, but I should really be getting to bed, man.

I've got to be ready for school tomorrow. AP Government is calling. I've got to show up and be the best, otherwise somebody else would be the best.....


and we can't have that.
I understand completely man. ;) I remember my good old days back in government. :P

And the many nights I lost to the demon that is TVTropes. :(

*Sigh*
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Colin if Evolution is what science says it is, then why the fuck do dolphins breath air.
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kungfucolin
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Well, it seems you're choosing not to actually respond to any of the points I'm raising.. : /

The fact that they breathe air is a sign of their evolutionary origins. Besides, who ever said that evolution was efficient? Evolution doesn't do the best possible job, it does whatever is sufficient for survival. Dolphins and whales survive just fine the way they are. Their only major predator is us, and we've only been hunting them for a very short time.

Furthermore, restructuring the entire respiratory system is a major deal. It's not something that just happens. It would require the reorganization of several major organs systems. It's not easy, which is why these things haven't occurred very often.
As it is, they have adapted somewhat to allow for marine existence; the relocation of the nostrils/blowhole and their ability to hold their breath for far longer than we can.
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So why did every other aquatic animal evolve just fine?
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kungfucolin
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Because Dolphins were not necessarily always aquatic.
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They would have struggled on land. And this is the part where you say well they wouldn't have been like how dolphins are now and then I say so why did they evolve in practically the same way as most other aquatic animal except for the breathing and then we just end up in circles.
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Or I could say well surely if all life came from one cell that multiplied they all had the same characteristics at one point and therefor the origin of being on land or in water surely makes no difference to evolution and then you rebuttal and once again nothing has been solved.
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