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Gay Marriage - Yes or No
Topic Started: Jan 29 2010, 12:40 PM (8,592 Views)
Lexie
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You've just been Britified.
*Sigh* This is all bloody pointless. You shouldn't care about the Bible or the Torah, or the Koran, or the Atheist Manifesto in this stupid debate. The question of whether God wrote a book (through surrogates or directly), is as irrelevant as throwing in what the Pokemon Fan Club has to say on this issue. It is an irrelevance. And I don't care what you say from this point on about the Bible or any other holy book. IT. IS. IRRELEVANT.

Straykey, are there any honest, secular, logical arguments as to why homosexuals are wrong and shouldn't marry?

I'll answer the question for you. No.

There is a reason that, in psychology, it's called HomoPHOBIA. A Phobia can be defined as a fear without any rational justification. Being eaten by a lion in a lion enclosure is not a phobia. Calling gay people wrong because you find what we do in bed "icky" is a phobia. Homosexuality isn't just a form of sex, it's a form of love. I'm an example of this, I'm in love with another woman!

And, for the final time, God should not come into law making. Because god is horribly subjective. Ask a Methodist, a Catholic and a Mormon on what God is and you'll ignite a Holy War, two words that are fast becoming synonymous.

Laws are made (or should be made) based upon what damage to society that the effects of restricting something or making something legal will have. You know what the effects of legalizing gay marriage will be? Yeah, I'll be able to get married! Nothing else. So, in effect, you are denying me my civil rights based on thin air, in terms of Law. THAT. IS. IT.

You are homophobic, no ifs, no buts. The Bible is a pointless artefact in law! Laws have to be made and amended based on sound reason and logic. Your beliefs without evidence are not logical, and therefore should have no part in my life unless I choose to MAKE them a part of my life. You, as a person, have no right to tell me how to live based on a bronze age book! That's all there is to it! I know you think you've got god on your side, that you're doing humanity a favour, but believe me when I say that the majority of the people in this thread are seeing you as nothing more than a homophobic bigot who wants to stop people like me having a decent, happy life without bothering anybody. What the hell have I done to you to deserve such a stupid, debasing, immoral statement as "You're wrong". I'm not wrong, Mr. Straykey, I am the epitome of what I think is right!

Morality is subjective, therefore we will have to make laws that we can ALL agree on, and the matter of the fact is quite simple; most people see my not being allowed to marry as nothing more than discrimination, which it is! I refuse, beyond all reasonable doubt, to allow you people to boss me around any more! I'm sick and tired of Christians annoying the hell out of Gay people just because their big special book tells them to. May I remind you that an "Abomination" unto the lord is eating Shell fish!?

You're hiding behind your faith, hoping that it'll afford you some respect of credibility, but it isn't. You [CENSORED], afraid to admit that gay people might actually be equal to him, but different. Let me remind you, Straykey, of those all-encompassing, lovely words that I love to quote to my parents:

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that ALL men [and women] are created equal!"

I hold these truths to be self evident, that you are free to believe as you please. However, I draw the line at being called wrong simply for the way I was born. YES, I was BORN THIS WAY! I have had NO choice in being lesbian WHAT SO EVER! Does it make sense to you, Straykey, that I would want to be estranged from my parents, want to be living with my sister, who is grieving for a lost lover, want to be depressed because homophobic bigots like you bullied me to the point of nearly strangling someone!?

Are you pleased about that?

I bloody hope not.

[CENSORED] Straykey, and actually talk to a gay person before you spout this bullshit.

Yours,
Kathie, AKA your new master.
Edited by Tenken, May 26 2011, 05:12 PM.
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THEPUNK101
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Leah
expired
Edited by THEPUNK101, Aug 15 2011, 07:42 PM.
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Tenken
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Hoennese and proud!

Don't ignore my question Straykey:

If you remove all question of religion from the idea, are you against civil marriages for same-sex couples?

No, that was a cop out, answer the question properly.
Ignoring all ideas of a religious marriage, are you against same-sex couples having non-religious, civil marriages?
Edited by Tenken, May 27 2011, 10:20 AM.
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Chaos Demon
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The Sexbomb of FTG
Your God is a hypocrite on one side he says "i love you unconditionally but if you don't believe in me then i will let you burn for ever into fiery depths of hell where you will be tortured for ever and ever but don't forget i still love you."

The bible is a book of pure fiction if it's truly the word of this almighty deity, Who seems to be all loving then why does he destroy whole villages in one fell swoop?, Because it's wrong and people aren't doing what he wants them too?

Your precious bible was made by power hungry men, just keep the people under control. Sure there are some things in it that are praise worthy but that doesn't mean that it's the absolute truth just because some dude in robe once said that it's the word of God. How many people have died just because it was gods will. How many priests have said during the crusades or any other holy war, "If you kill them then God will absolve you of all your sins." Meaning if you don't believe then you screwed to die in agony for all eternity. There is no free will in that. If you have lived a very good life, you have helped people, donated stuff, That almost makes you a saint BUT you don't believe in this deity. Then your still screwed and still go to hell because you committed a sin called "Heresy". it's even a sin for not believing. Again i ask you where is the free will in that?

I can understand that you need someone to believe in and i respect that but don't try to use that religion against people that don't believe. Lastly "We the people" never asked for this so called sacrifice, It was his own will and i don't feel obligated at all to feel guilty for his sacrifice.

To end my whole rant, If your truly a religious man and not an other Christian zealot , then you will respect peoples wishes as to marry each other even though their of the same sex. You can say that the bible says it's a sin but i'm still okey with it. If you say that it's a sin then your clearly not okey with it. So dude pick a side, your either for it or against it. NOT both.
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Cloud
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Who you calling chocobo head...

...No offensive to you Stray but if anyone can understand a phobia it's either people with one (like me or yourself, and quite of few people have at least one phobia I imagine), or Tenken for sure, probably better than us considering what he studies at university (assuming he doesn't have a phobia himself).

Now...you have some signs of an advanced sense of morality developing...but at the moment your ability to judge morals is at one of the lowest levels, you are unable to decide what is right and wrong for yourself, you have to use the bible to decide for you. A truly moral person can decide what is right and wrong by judgement regardless of the rewards or punishments, instead of being told what is moral, or being moral to get rewarded. Sorry to say it, but in this regard it means Lexie, Tenken and myself are more moral despite being 'no good sinners'.

Though, I believe this is something Jesus himself knew and tried to teach by spending time with tax collectors and prostitutes? Anyone can be moral, and it doesn't involve listening to any religion, it involves just being a good person. I say you have signs of an advanced sense developing because you said if you were an atheist you wouldn't care...now you just need to think on why that is the case, why can you as a person decide that it doesn't matter?

As for why Lexie was rude...to be honest you were rude first, and, you don't yet seem to grasp that saying you love homosexuals but homosexual 'activity' is sinful and God can change it is INCREDIBLY rude and sounds hateful and really is just a minor distraction you can hide behind. (I love you for being black, but put on this white face paint, black 'activity' is wrong. Doesn't sound that loving towards people with dark skin does it?) More so because all the recent science on the fact has shown that we are born with our sexuality, outright damns any attempts of conversion or 'reparative' therapy and shows that sexuality cannot be changed.

I see you're still bringing in bible verses, fine, okay. Firstly, do you even know the Hebrew definition of an abomination (which is what it calls a man laying with another man at one point)? It means against ritual, not something that is innately wrong. You can take the entire bible literally if you like, but that is a 5th grade understanding of the bible, which is fine if you're in the 5th grade. When you say the bible says something, no, you're wrong; it is what the bible reads.

To determine what the bible says requires an investigation into the languages that have come before, into the culture of the time it was written and your own interpretation. I will give you that the bible is divine inspired from God if you wish, however, the book is still written by humans, all making their own interpretations and drawing on cultural examples, so the culture of the time is still important. When the bible was written, the concept of a loving long term same-sex couple did not exist, no word for it exists in Hebrew.

However, the homosexual intercourse with young boys or having male concubines by married men so they could get some extra sex on the side did exist. Is the bible perhaps referring to that maybe? I think we can all agree raping young boys or having male concubines just for sex while you’re married is wrong. The bible says nowhere 'thou shall not be gay', but it does say 'thou shall not bare false witness', and I will not bear witness to the Lord by hiding ('changing') my sexuality. The verse Lexie was referring to btw;

Leviticus 11:12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Stray, Lexie also never says she ‘defines’ herself by her sexuality, and I certainly don’t either. I no more run around proclaiming I’m bisexual in real life no more than people run around claiming they’re straight (…not that I do It on the internet either, but I am more open about it on this site then I normally would be). Sexuality is not the defining quality of a person, there is probably no one thing that is, however, sexuality is something we are born with that does not change and defines who we form loving lasting relationships with, so it’s probably pretty important.

Moving on from all of that back to what Tenken asked. You are AGAIN ignoring parts of this thread. Marriage was a civil contract before Christianity. Marriage for as long as it has existed, has been civil, and while today religious marriages are more common (to the point in America and Australia the idea of civil marriage seems strange to most people) it is still around. So marriage is NOT being sanctioned before God, it’s just what Christian’s religious version of marriage is (which has existed in its current format for maybe only 500 years if even that).

So, to ask again, you as a CHRISTIAN (not some atheist hypothetical), do you have a problem with civil homosexual marriage, remembering marriage at its most basic form is a contract, and does not have to be sanctioned before God (and will not be in this case). And yes, this is a marriage, not a union.
Edited by Cloud, May 27 2011, 12:20 PM.
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Tenken
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Hoennese and proud!

Technically, homophobia is not recognised as an actual phobic term it is recognised as prejudice.

Just sayin'
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Drame
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cant help myself but somehow this song just speaks truth xD



Well trolled as in i feel more like mocking you either directly (calling you stupid) or simply reply to see you attempt to make an argument. Which i might add have been quite entertaining :D
Edited by Drame, May 27 2011, 10:25 PM.
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Chaos Demon
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The Sexbomb of FTG
Drame
May 27 2011, 10:23 PM
cant help myself but somehow this song just speaks truth xD



Well trolled as in i feel more like mocking you either directly (calling you stupid) or simply reply to see you attempt to make an argument. Which i might add have been quite entertaining :D
I couldn't have said it better myself XD , i keep pressing the repeat button :P
Edited by Chaos Demon, May 27 2011, 10:36 PM.
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Madge
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The Dragon of Grimiore Heart
Drame
May 26 2011, 01:07 PM
sorry my beliefs is respect for those earning it, until you give me a reason to respect you on the same level as mimi or other people who decide on god. Then i will not give you that. Respect isn't a free thing in this world, you earn it like everyone else.
Really? I'll have to disagree, Because I seem to give everyone I meet, or see on the streets my full respect. Everyone deserves respect unless they give you a reason NOT to respect them. I've always been taught to be polite to others, treat everyone with the uttmost respect. It just feels like you're trying to act superior by demanding that others have to prove themselves before you can even judge them. But, Now I'm curious, who else shares this mindset about how people have to earn respect?

(sorry for going off-topic, but this just caught me by suprise.)
Edited by Madge, May 29 2011, 05:01 AM.
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Chaos Demon
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The Sexbomb of FTG
Madge, i suggest you make a mew thread about it :) , your questions looks like it's going to be more then just off topic.
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