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Gay Marriage - Yes or No
Topic Started: Jan 29 2010, 12:40 PM (8,595 Views)
Cloud
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Who you calling chocobo head...

Light Rider, I agree with that totally. I just wish more Christians shared a similar view.
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Simmons101
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The Tracer of Blue Pegasus
Ok, as a straight Christian, I'm putting this debate to rest right now.

First off, the FACTS that I know of so far:

First off, Christianity has nothing against people who are homo-sexual. There is nothing in the bible that say's being a homo-sexual is a sin, nor is it grounds for going to hell. The only thing the bible says (from what I've read), is that for people of the same sex to fornicate is an abomination (or, a heavily sinful act). This is basically saying that to act sexually on your homosexuality (in bed) is what is dissaproved of. That's all there is too it people. People can't choose who they fall in love with, but they can choose whether or not to act sexually on it.

Second off, by the church standards, marriage is a religious union between a man and a woman. Religions origionally came up with the concept of marriage, therefore, it's their right to say whether or not it is between a man and a woman. It's been like that since the beginning, and the government doesn't have the right to say what it is and isn't.

Now, for my personal thoughts:

Honestly, I think that if two people love one another deeply that they want to be together, then I'm fine with that. It doesn't matter what sex you are, love is love, and it's something we can't change. Although I would say you should avoid same-sex.....sex, if you decide to do it, then it's none of my business and I will not judge you; I just personally find the idea wrong, but thats only my opinion and I won't bash people over the head with it repeatedly.

And same sex marriage? If two people of the same sex want to have the same legal rights as a married couple, fine. Make civil unions on equal terms with marriage. However, the concept of Marriage itself, to me, is something that is the property and the right of the religion to decide (refer to my earlyer paragraph).

My two cents: Pro-gay-marriage people, please don't assume that just because you can't be married in the religious sense means that you can't be together in an emotional or spiritual sense. Anti-gay-marriage people, being gay is not considered a sin, it is the sexual act of it that is considered sinful, and a lot of the time a persons sexuality is not a choice (so if you're going to use that as an argument, then just sit down and shut the fuck up, 'cause I don't want to hear it).

........and I think I pissed a few people off with that last sentence... *prepares for the shit-storm*
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Cloud
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Who you calling chocobo head...

As Mimi, Tenken, Link and myself have stated...marriages were not always religious, and in some places still aren't, religion did not invent the concept of marriage. If I do fall in love with a woman (or a man and the laws in this country change) I would want a civil marriage like Tenken, not a religious one. So yes, something that is legally the same as a marriage, and you know, is called a marriage. If 'unions' and marriages were the same in all but name...are you worried about the name? Different still isn't equal. If the law was changed to allow gay marriage, I wouldn't care if the churches reserved the right to still say no, I wouldn't be going to them anyway.

...I agree with you strongly that sexuality isn't a choice, and that love is love...which is why I then get very confused that sex to you is then wrong? Sex is meant to be an important part of an relationship, even in religious marriages, you know, union of body and spirit, having children, something like that at least.

Hate to tell you, but, if the bible is going to say that homosexual intercourse is wrong, it might as well say being homosexual is wrong, humans are sexual beings and most humans that truly love each other are probably going to have sex eventually...just saying. Also, not your last sentence that will piss people off I think...but just about everything else will.
Edited by Cloud, May 20 2011, 04:57 AM.
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Simmons101
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The Tracer of Blue Pegasus
Quote:
 
...I agree with you strongly that sexuality isn't a choice, and that love is love...which is why I then get very confused that sex to you is then wrong? Sex is meant to be an important part of an relationship, even in religious marriages, you know, union of body and spirit, having children, something like that at least.


Ah, well let me explain. On a personal matter, when I take a step back and think of homosexual intercourse the idea just....doesn't sit well with me. It's not that I'm biased, but theres something about the idea that twists me the wrong way, and I cant' shake the feeling. But if people wish to do it, it's their choice and I've got no problem as long as they don't make a fuss over it. Also, I personally believe that you can be in love with someone without having to share intercourse with them; but admittedly, thats probably my naivety speaking.

I'll admit, sex is something special to be shared between two people who are deeply in love, but there's something different about two people of the same sex doing it. I guess it's the fact that a man and a woman are built to satisfy eachother simultaniously with their reproductive organs, or maybe it's something else. Honestly, I'm constantly building my opinion on the subject, and it may change over time; this is just the conclusion that I've arrived at so far.

Also, the passage in the bible I mentioned earlier, about same-sex intercourse being an abomination; I'm trying to follow the bible as much as possible, but not to the point where I take everything literally. So while I don't believe that it means that homosexuals who have sex are going to hell, I DO believe that it means that it is sinful in some way.

Also, you mentioned how sex is an important part of a relationship, and mentioned children; that's not something that really helps the argument in this case. Yes, having and raising children is one of the most important part of marriages, but two people of the same sex cannot concieve a child, can they? I have no opinion on the point, but I wanted to throw that out there.

And finally, your statement about marriages not always being religions;.................this is news to me. I'm genuinely interested, because I've never heard this argument before.

So if not from the church, where did marriage begin?
Edited by Simmons101, May 20 2011, 05:08 AM.
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Cloud
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Who you calling chocobo head...

Well, for what's it worth gay people do the same thing everyone else does in bed, we sleep. We're not sexual deviants that need more sex or something, and it's flattering but a little disturbing you'd think about two guys going at it. :P (Sorry, I mean this in a light-hearted kind of way.) If it makes you more comfortable on the issue, don't think about two males having sex (or females, though, I find many straight guys seem to think two females are awesome...not hypocritical at all...).

I'm going to be as frank as possible, but also try to be as medical as possible to keep this PG-13... Between Oral Sex, Anal Sex, Mutual Masturbation for a short undescriptive list there is no problem, err, satisfying each other. Considering how densely innervated the prostate gland is, (which is still part of the reproductive system), it is possible for two male to, err, 'satisfy each other simultaneously with their reproductive organs'. You also say 'built'...this implies a creator...ah...nothing about the human body was 'designed'. If it was designed...well, for starters I would think vaginal tearing and urogenital infections would be less common...

As for the children argument...gay couples can still adopt, and should infertile straight people be unable to marry? "I'm so sorry, it turns out you can't carry children... While you're still reeling in emotional shock, your marriage is annulled!"

As for marriage, it probably started as a way for a male to ensure he was the father of a child. Marriage was to secure exclusive sexual access, in a sense, access to women is institutionalised by marriage so to moderate the intensity of competition; marriage has probably developed out of a primeval habit. Obviously this isn't what it is now (or shouldn't be) but that is how it started. Many Chinese weddings, and heck, many royal weddings in the past, were also purely political, to gain power. Ancient Greek weddings had no ceremony and inheritance was the most important thing. In modern times, civil marriages aren't a new concept either, which have the same legal standing as marriages, just not religious.
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Tenken
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Hoennese and proud!

I can tell you for a fact that the concept of marriage in Japan did not begin from a religious standpoint but from a civil and spiritual sense; not technically religious as the original ones were done so the souls of the two people in question were bound together so they could be closer in this life. Of course socially stuff was still pretty terrible for women but marriages from where I was raised were not originally religious. In fact my parents had a traditional Japanese ceremony (not a more current one wherein they do a more Western ideal) in that they married before an appointed government official simply to bind their souls together and be one.

That is the idea behind it, there are still the typical legal documents and whatnot.
But basically, in at least one country were marriages not always considered religious nor begun from a Christian standpoint - those kinds of marriages originated in the Middle East and Europe but it's only through Western Culture in modern times that they've evolved to the point they are now where civil union is accepted in ~80% of the globe (the numbers are sketchy).

However before 1971 homosexuality was considered not a sin or an abomination but a mental illness in Japan and it wasn't until then that they recognised such partnerships as being healthier for those involved than forcing them not to. In fact homosexuality is basically a complete nonissue there these days and while same-sex marriage isn't accepted the recognised government stance is that same-sex marriage is legal from anywhere else in Japan (so you could get married in Nepal for example and then move back and you'd be legally counted as married) but they do not practise it in Japan yet.

Legislation is underway.

As for the idea of fornication being a heavy sin I posit that the idea of homosexual sex is not in itself fornication; there is no impregnation and no chance of a child being born from the union, so how is it fornication when that word in itself means "to procreate"?

*not flaming or poking fun, just simply curious"
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THEPUNK101
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Leah
expired
Edited by THEPUNK101, Aug 15 2011, 07:29 PM.
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Cloud
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Who you calling chocobo head...

...My last name is Brown, I'm Timothy David Brown. You can have your choice of Tim, Timmah, Timmy, Cloud, Cloudy, Spike, Spikey, Blond, Blondie, Strife, Emo-kid, Kotarou or Kota (with or without '-kun' to any of them). If you want to know not well, how's yours?

Me saying David is bi, and me saying Jesus had schizophrenia, are my own interpretations of the bible, and are no more correct or incorrect then yours. I say David is bi because of how I read 1 Samuel and 2 Samuel, and I say Jesus is schizophrenic because while I believe Jesus was a real person that said some amazing things (using historical documents that are not the bible), I do not believe he was the son of God, and I think the most likely explanation, at least to me, is that he had schizophrenia. So, for David being bi, I'll provide some specific verses from 1 Samuel and 2 Samuel, though; we're going to interpret them differently. As for Jesus being schizophrenic, I point to every verse where he claims he's the son of god. Again, you're not going to agree with my interpretation of the bible though.

Was David Gay?


I already know you're already going to say that they were just really good friends, as I said, we're going to interpret it differently and neither of us are probably changing our mind on it (though if you have a very strong argument I'll like to hear it).


And...geez...it's either because you're 14, or a good little Christian boy, or both, but, I can tell you, most humans are sexual creatures (with of course the exception of asexual people), by telling me that homosexual 'activity' is sinful...you might as well be telling me my existence is sinful. Which to be honest would be way more then a little hurtful if I was still Christian. As is it honestly does make me angry, I'd like to think I'm a pretty good person and Ghost and Link would be willing to testify for that. Though, can you clarify what you mean by 'activity'? If it's intercourse, just say that, if you mean more than that, then where is the line drawn? Openly loving someone, kissing someone, just checking them out?

As for trying to say you're not calling my existence sinful? You can't have your cake and eat it too; "Yes a relationship with Jesus is about love. What you do is forgiven only what you for him remains. However when the Holy Ghost you will be changed and actually try to be good if you really love him." "Also I know gay people too I respect them and love them even though they are wrong." Okay, see, being told I'm not good, that I'm wrong, is rather hurtful when it was for something that God gave me! I was born this way so either your God is a sadistic jerk, or maybe you're wrong on this issue and you should actually ask yourself what Jesus would do instead of blindly following a book. Did Jesus (not anyone that wrote the bible, just Jesus) ever say being homosexual was wrong? Would he condemn people like that?

Prayer does NOT work in every situation, believe you me if it did the lives of my suffering relatives would be much better off... Interesting fact on fasting though, when you're starving your body produces ketone bodies. One of these is very similar to some of the drugs that make you high and you can smell the acetone coming out of the person, which accounts for any good feelings or 'saintly smell' you might get from fasting.

As for anything that Paul wrote in the bible...Jesus didn't say most of what Paul wrote...and I'd rather believe Jesus then Paul.

And...how have I said being gay is a disability...Link and Tenken have both shown it's not, and hey, in my case, I get to be bi-winning~! (Okay, lame joke was lame.) Sexuality is not a disability any more then eye colour is...
Edited by Cloud, May 20 2011, 09:01 AM.
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Drame
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^- what Cloud wrote, but then again some people would rather be blinded by their own light and use a book for directions. Than just face the world as it is :P

Oh and yes i did debate, i used sarcasm as my tool for the post. And if you cant handle sarcasm gtho sadly, a debate isn't a friendly side by side discussion necesarrily if i want to use some heavier weaponry to make him say something that is useful to me. Then thats how its going to work.

Now if i where trying to be insulting i would be saying something like this:
"Jesus is a figment of your imagination whose origin is an ancient work of fiction. But I'm wasting my time telling you this because you're probably dumb enough to believe in the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus too. If you have the intellectual capacity, bother to actually READ your bible. If you get through the Pentateuch (if you even know what that is) and still think that God is good, you need to go to Hell yourself. God is either Useless, Wicked, Non-existent or worthless. Pick one." see? Thats meant as more hurtful, and im not denying i've trolled before, frankly thats too much fun not too. But that doesn't mean i dont give the new ones who have hadn't had a chance to show themselves to have their head stuck totally in a book to say what their oppinions are, and further debate them. Dont like it? Too bad go out of the debate then :P.
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Dragonmimi
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D-Class
OK argument about the bible.
If you truly have faith in God, you do not need to refer to every rule in the bible. I am a personal fan of this quote:
"That which you hate do not do unto others"
Which basically means treat every person with unbiased respect in my opinion

Secondly if you ARE going to chant bible rules, swallow all the rules whole. INCLUDING the ones that say you cannot wear clothing of mixed materials (ONLY cotton OR polyester NOT both) and you cant eat meat and dairy products within two hours of each other (and 'unclean' animals like pigs are RIGHT OUT).

Thirdly religion has NOTHING to do with this AT ALL. a marriage between two people is a legally recognized partnership and has no forced connection to the church. I see NO reason as to why two people of different sexes can get married and two people of the same sex can't, that's just homophobia no matter how religiously you dress it up.

there is NO EXCUSE to treat people differently just because of the way they were born, no matter what your religion or religious text says.
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