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Loyality and Fidelity
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Topic Started: Nov 30 2010, 07:42 PM (3,064 Views)
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Marcus
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Dec 3 2010, 02:05 AM
Post #21
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A woman don't have but one time to cheat on me, and it's over.
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LastMan
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Dec 3 2010, 03:06 AM
Post #22
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- shutupalready
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- shutupalready
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- tayter80
- Nov 30 2010, 07:42 PM
I was having a conversation with my grandmother over the past holiday weekend about faithfulness. Some years ago my grandfather had an affair with a woman who had his child. I always wondered how my grandmother could have stayed with him after such a betrayal. I finally ask her about it and she basically said this, yes it hurt her, but never once during that time did she feel that she had lost my grandfathers love or loyality to her. She told me that faithfulness may come and go in a relationship, but once you no longer have loyality to one another the relationship is over. This got me to thinking, is loyality more important than fidelity in a relationship? Can you even seperate loyality from fidelity?? What do you guys think...
It's all a matter of conditioning. For many cultures plural marriage is acceptable, and was the way of life for our foreparents prior to slavery and life in captivity. It is a part of our collective genetic make-up, which is why it is so common with black men. Living in a society which forbids plural marriage causes men to do what comes natural, in secret. Men living in societies where plural marriage is acceptable, don't have to "sneak around" so-to-speak. Many believe that monogamy is an unnatural way of life forced on them because they happen to, by no choice of their own, live in a society that forbids polygyny. It's quit possible that he maintained love and loyalty to both.
Are you only supportive of polygyny or are you ok with polyandry as well. Just wondering because many men use this as an excuse for cheating. Saying it is in their nature, but then when a woman desires more than one man, they do not like it. Is it not natural here? Do not marry and pledge a commitment like that if you desire to be with more than one person. So simple, yet some cannot grasp that. I still have to ask how LOYAL you are being if you step out on a marriage. What are you being loyal to when you betrayed trust and were not faithful to ALL of your commitments. One time stepping out maybe but repeated affairs, I think not. Loyalty by definition is being faithful to one's oath, commitments, or obligations.
First of all, I didn't state that I was "supportive" of either. I merely sought to provide an answer to the question posed. I too believe that one should hold to vows of whatever sort. I can however reconcile the notion that he could remain loving and loyal to both women despite having not remained "faithful" to his vow. As it regards polyandry, it's a cultural practice that is very rare and extinct in most cases. That is a practice, in my opinion, that is steeped in confusion as it makes determination of paternity nearly impossible.
I apologize if I misinterpreted what you said. Are we good now? But in polyandrous societies, determining paternity was not necessary to them as they raised the children in a collective society and did not care. And it is not as rare in some societies as we think. And with DNA testing now, that is essentially not a problem. Absolutely we're good. You are correct in that paternity was not an issue in those societies, otherwise that would've persented a problem from the outset. However in the greater worldview, paternity has always been a prominent issue. In fact in most societies of antiquity the names of boy children were after a particular "god" of their choice, such as Nebuchadnezer, named after the "god" Nabu, or Amenhotep, named after the "god" Amen (Amen Ra). The prominence of paternal societies overwhelmed maternal ones causing the disappearance of most maternal ones. And you are right that it is not as rare as we may think. Because just as polygyny is practiced by some men in secret, polyandry is also practiced by some women in secret. And DNA testing, as you mentioned, has already proven vital in determining paternity for the many women that practice that "lifestyle".
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Mister J
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Dec 3 2010, 12:13 PM
Post #23
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- Dec 2 2010, 01:28 AM
Mister J I see faithfulness and loyality as being the samething. That's fine, Marcus, you're entitled to do that. This question boils down to a matter of values and personal inclinations, anyhow.
Rather than look at the topic only from the point of my own values and inclinations... I tried to address what the OP's grandmother may have meant by her remarks.
Perhaps the OP will return to her thread and shed more light on the question raised. Particularly, her own perspective.
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kennyinbmore
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Dec 4 2010, 02:36 PM
Post #24
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- tayter80
- Nov 30 2010, 07:42 PM
I was having a conversation with my grandmother over the past holiday weekend about faithfulness. Some years ago my grandfather had an affair with a woman who had his child. I always wondered how my grandmother could have stayed with him after such a betrayal. I finally ask her about it and she basically said this, yes it hurt her, but never once during that time did she feel that she had lost my grandfathers love or loyality to her. She told me that faithfulness may come and go in a relationship, but once you no longer have loyality to one another the relationship is over. This got me to thinking, is loyality more important than fidelity in a relationship? Can you even seperate loyality from fidelity?? What do you guys think... Believe it or not tayter, I had this exact conversation with my grandmother over 30 years ago. My grandparents were married for 62 years before my grandfather passed away. Apparently he had several affairs during the course of the marriage. Her exact words to me once were, "I don't mind if he has another woman from time to time as long as he takes care of the family." I believe with women of that time that opinion was pretty common. Women generally didn't work and their husbands were the bread winners. Flash forward to 1975 when I was 10 years old and my mom divorced my dad when he was caught cheating the second time. She worked and didn't need his income. It's one of the reasons divorce rates are so high in our time. women today now have options that women in our grandparents time didn't really.
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Damn Right
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Dec 4 2010, 03:20 PM
Post #25
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- kennyinbmore
- Dec 4 2010, 02:36 PM
- tayter80
- Nov 30 2010, 07:42 PM
I was having a conversation with my grandmother over the past holiday weekend about faithfulness. Some years ago my grandfather had an affair with a woman who had his child. I always wondered how my grandmother could have stayed with him after such a betrayal. I finally ask her about it and she basically said this, yes it hurt her, but never once during that time did she feel that she had lost my grandfathers love or loyality to her. She told me that faithfulness may come and go in a relationship, but once you no longer have loyality to one another the relationship is over. This got me to thinking, is loyality more important than fidelity in a relationship? Can you even seperate loyality from fidelity?? What do you guys think...
Believe it or not tayter, I had this exact conversation with my grandmother over 30 years ago. My grandparents were married for 62 years before my grandfather passed away. Apparently he had several affairs during the course of the marriage. Her exact words to me once were, "I don't mind if he has another woman from time to time as long as he takes care of the family." I believe with women of that time that opinion was pretty common. Women generally didn't work and their husbands were the bread winners. Flash forward to 1975 when I was 10 years old and my mom divorced my dad when he was caught cheating the second time. She worked and didn't need his income. It's one of the reasons divorce rates are so high in our time. women today now have options that women in our grandparents time didn't really. But isn't marriage about being faithful to your spouse, when Tiger Woods cheated on his wife she divorced him and you can't blame her for doing that, because he broke their marriage vows.
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negroplease
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Dec 4 2010, 04:54 PM
Post #26
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- kennyinbmore
- Dec 4 2010, 02:36 PM
- tayter80
- Nov 30 2010, 07:42 PM
I was having a conversation with my grandmother over the past holiday weekend about faithfulness. Some years ago my grandfather had an affair with a woman who had his child. I always wondered how my grandmother could have stayed with him after such a betrayal. I finally ask her about it and she basically said this, yes it hurt her, but never once during that time did she feel that she had lost my grandfathers love or loyality to her. She told me that faithfulness may come and go in a relationship, but once you no longer have loyality to one another the relationship is over. This got me to thinking, is loyality more important than fidelity in a relationship? Can you even seperate loyality from fidelity?? What do you guys think...
Believe it or not tayter, I had this exact conversation with my grandmother over 30 years ago. My grandparents were married for 62 years before my grandfather passed away. Apparently he had several affairs during the course of the marriage. Her exact words to me once were, "I don't mind if he has another woman from time to time as long as he takes care of the family." I believe with women of that time that opinion was pretty common. Women generally didn't work and their husbands were the bread winners. Flash forward to 1975 when I was 10 years old and my mom divorced my dad when he was caught cheating the second time. She worked and didn't need his income. It's one of the reasons divorce rates are so high in our time. women today now have options that women in our grandparents time didn't really. This is exactly what I was trying to hit on in my very first post to this topic.
People yearn for yesteryear and talk of how families stayed together and feminism ruined everything and marriages do not last.
But who really wants to stay in a marriage where you are constantly cheated on and disrespected if you do not have to.
These were not successful marriages, they just looked so surface wise while the truth was swept under the rug.
Unfortunately that means that children may grow up without both parents in the home, but maybe some should think about that before stepping out on your marriage.
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Mister J
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Dec 4 2010, 09:01 PM
Post #27
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- tayter80
- Nov 30 2010, 07:42 PM
I was having a conversation with my grandmother over the past holiday weekend about faithfulness. Some years ago my grandfather had an affair with a woman who had his child. I always wondered how my grandmother could have stayed with him after such a betrayal. I finally ask her about it and she basically said this, yes it hurt her, but never once during that time did she feel that she had lost my grandfathers love or loyality to her. She told me that faithfulness may come and go in a relationship, but once you no longer have loyality to one another the relationship is over. This got me to thinking, is loyality more important than fidelity in a relationship? Can you even seperate loyality from fidelity?? What do you guys think...
Believe it or not tayter, I had this exact conversation with my grandmother over 30 years ago. My grandparents were married for 62 years before my grandfather passed away. Apparently he had several affairs during the course of the marriage. Her exact words to me once were, "I don't mind if he has another woman from time to time as long as he takes care of the family." I believe with women of that time that opinion was pretty common. Women generally didn't work and their husbands were the bread winners. Flash forward to 1975 when I was 10 years old and my mom divorced my dad when he was caught cheating the second time. She worked and didn't need his income. It's one of the reasons divorce rates are so high in our time. women today now have options that women in our grandparents time didn't really.
This is exactly what I was trying to hit on in my very first post to this topic. People yearn for yesteryear and talk of how families stayed together and feminism ruined everything and marriages do not last. But who really wants to stay in a marriage where you are constantly cheated on and disrespected if you do not have to. These were not successful marriages, they just looked so surface wise while the truth was swept under the rug. Unfortunately that means that children may grow up without both parents in the home, but maybe some should think about that before stepping out on your marriage. But neither of you offered a prescription for sucessfully functioning in an American-styled, 21century 'marriage'.
It's not enough to note that divorce rates are much higher because women have lots more financial means to take care of themselves...
So phuckin', what?
Men can (and, in fact, DO) counter that change in the female's options by covering his azz with some options of his own. For example, many are, indeed, thinking to themselves that, 'today's females are not nearly as dedicated and committed (for reasons already mentioned)... therefore, he can't put all his "eggs" in these 'bishes' "basket, either... that he needs to make back-up plans, to minimize the damage, in case the 'bish' bail-out on him'.
How 'bout that?
And then she, now, will attempt to counter HIS move with another one of her own, that she thinks will cover HER azz...
Do you see where this trend is going?
So, somebody needs to have enough character, integrity and adulthood to negotiate and come to terms on what two (or more) grown-azz people would accept in their relationship... AND, what they are inclined to do when the terms are not being met.
Can I get a witness?
Edited by Mister J, Dec 4 2010, 11:07 PM.
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negroplease
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Dec 5 2010, 12:08 AM
Post #28
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- Mister J
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- kennyinbmore
- Dec 4 2010, 02:36 PM
- tayter80
- Nov 30 2010, 07:42 PM
I was having a conversation with my grandmother over the past holiday weekend about faithfulness. Some years ago my grandfather had an affair with a woman who had his child. I always wondered how my grandmother could have stayed with him after such a betrayal. I finally ask her about it and she basically said this, yes it hurt her, but never once during that time did she feel that she had lost my grandfathers love or loyality to her. She told me that faithfulness may come and go in a relationship, but once you no longer have loyality to one another the relationship is over. This got me to thinking, is loyality more important than fidelity in a relationship? Can you even seperate loyality from fidelity?? What do you guys think...
Believe it or not tayter, I had this exact conversation with my grandmother over 30 years ago. My grandparents were married for 62 years before my grandfather passed away. Apparently he had several affairs during the course of the marriage. Her exact words to me once were, "I don't mind if he has another woman from time to time as long as he takes care of the family." I believe with women of that time that opinion was pretty common. Women generally didn't work and their husbands were the bread winners. Flash forward to 1975 when I was 10 years old and my mom divorced my dad when he was caught cheating the second time. She worked and didn't need his income. It's one of the reasons divorce rates are so high in our time. women today now have options that women in our grandparents time didn't really.
This is exactly what I was trying to hit on in my very first post to this topic. People yearn for yesteryear and talk of how families stayed together and feminism ruined everything and marriages do not last. But who really wants to stay in a marriage where you are constantly cheated on and disrespected if you do not have to. These were not successful marriages, they just looked so surface wise while the truth was swept under the rug. Unfortunately that means that children may grow up without both parents in the home, but maybe some should think about that before stepping out on your marriage.
But neither of you offered a prescription for sucessfully functioning in an American-styled, 21century 'marriage'. It's not enough to note that divorce rates are much higher because women have lots more financial means to take care of themselves... So phuckin', what? Men can (and, in fact, DO) counter that change in the female's options by covering his azz with some options of his own. For example, many are, indeed, thinking to themselves that, 'today's females are not nearly as dedicated and committed (for reasons already mentioned)... therefore, he can't put all his "eggs" in these 'bishes' "basket, either... that he needs to make back-up plans, to minimize the damage, in case the 'bish' bail-out on him'. How 'bout that? And then she, now, will attempt to counter HIS move with another one of her own, that she thinks will cover HER azz... Do you see where this trend is going? Can I get a witness? Never said I had a solution Mister J. Merely pointing out that those who keep trying to hype the facade of successful marriages of the earlier generations are really fooling themselves. But whatever works for these people more power to them, cheating is unacceptable in my opinion and in no way indicates a successful relationship to me.
I can agree that people need to possess character and integrity and work out negotiations for what they will accept in their marriage or relationship.
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Black Republican
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Dec 5 2010, 03:16 AM
Post #29
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If people can do anything they want to in a realationship, then why even bother getting married?
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tayter80
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Dec 7 2010, 12:16 AM
Post #30
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It's not about letting your spouse do whatever or whomever they like Black Repub., It's about if you can forgive your spouse if he/she makes such a huge mistake and they are truly remorseful about it. I agree with SUA and Kenny about how marriages a couple generations ago weren't as successful as we like to think they were(I've seen many bitter older couples growing up)but my grandparents situation was not about "as long as he is taking care of me and my kids, it's OK". This affair happened when both my father and uncle were grown and out of the house, so there were no young kids to think of. My grandmother could've easily just left, but she chose not to. Instead she wanted to work on her marriage as did my grandfather. They did what they needed to do to fix whatever was broken, something most couples don't do today.
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