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Questions about Magic and Melee
Topic Started: February 9, 2015, 9:02 pm (1,320 Views)
NTNP
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Now, I grant you, with our playerbase we're not going to be able to avoid overlap. A D&D party can usually, at the most, have around 5 to 6 completely unique character roles. A front line fighter, an offensive mage, a support/defensive/crowd control mage, a rogue, a healer, and a diplomat. And most of those will still overlap a little just because. We've got around 10-12 people who are regularly active in most RPs that come up. But still, if there were more clear limitations or people just stopped following the trends of spellswords, I think the overall balance and uniqueness of each character would improve. One problem I can immediately see that some people might have is the "uselessness" of characters like devoted healers and supporters. No one wants to be left out of the monster slaying, and I totally understand that. But even if the "position" doesn't sound as fun, as creative as all you guys are don't you think you could come up with a way to make those characters fun by focusing on their actual traits, actions, things like that, and making them entertaining characters rather than pieces on the board whose only purpose is to move to the next tile and take out the next enemy?


There is one issue here- everyone is a diplomat since almost ALL characters intend to talk and move the plot around, no one does stealth/skill based missions in their RPs for the most part with the exception of rare situations where it is stats (not some form of skills) that make all the difference. So that means in reality our group would be a frontline fighter, an offensive mage, a defensive mage and a healer (which is often deemed part of the defense mage’s bag). As such, in many RPs the real party composition is fighter, offensive mage and defensive mage. Now with the addition of a battlemage (part fighter, part offensive or defensive which means Paladins and the ilk would fall here too) that means realistically there are four real roles. Suddenly with that in mind, it makes more sense why we have the distribution we do.

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So. Sera's Fireball, Ammy's Black Needle. Darion's Jet Stream. Ritzea's Light Axe. They're all projectile damage attacks, yes. But let's look at their particular niches. Sera's attack fits her niche as a defensive mage - high setup, high impact. Ammy's fits hers as a quick, fine attack - likely gets an OHKO, passes on through. Darion's works to combine with his physical attacks - weakens and slows them to improve his damage. And Ritzea's works as a support - sets up a situation for others. In addition, keep in mind that these are more or less "bread and butter" abilities for mages. The equivalent for a melee fighter is "Sword slash" or "Jab". It's silly to complain how everyone's slashes and jabs are the same because they should be everywhere. But even then, the niches are different - Feng's basic attacks are going to be so different to Lee's.

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With regards to Infinite Ammo, you got it exactly right. No one's dickish enough to use their ultimate spells over and over. And if someone did? Everyone would be at that person's throats. There's no issues. There might be no rules, but if there were any rules, they wouldn't be broken in this current state. Would you rather a distinct Magic Meter in VoC? Giving them a limit that physical characters don't? I don't need to say how that's rather silly.
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I mentioned NTNP's RPs earlier, and how both of them used BOTH magic pools and stamina points. Physical characters should have limits too--but right now the reason I'm addressing magical limits is because they're nowhere near as existent.



I heard my name- So to clarify, basically it’s a simple MP system as opposed to a fatigue system as seen in Sin’s RP. Almost all of mine have them in some way. Basically any simple melee or magic attack (like say our fireballs, sonic blasts etc that are named usually but in mine aren’t) are considered free to use at will. Any named move has either a Stamina Point (physical moves) cost or a Magical Point (magical moves) cost, usually determined via a ranking system to narrow down on comparative abilities. They are very useful for ensuring someone doesn’t spam powerful moves or (as originally designed) make it where PvP fights last forever.

Now one complaint for most magic users is that their basic spam move (Angelo and Mark of the Hunted, Sera and Fireball etc) comes from the fact that they do not possess the ability to just make a basic spell that functions like Lee’s jab, Aran’s thrusts, Feng’s smash etc. This is why I advocate for magic users (or anyone else who chooses to use one/equip an item that makes it) has access to a simple magical attack. For example with Angelo- imagine if he had the option (for no cost) to use either slash with his katana or create a dark blast from his hands. For 3MP he could use Doppleganger, 2MP for Mark of the Hunted and 2SP for a dodging move. At any point, it gives me the option to use the magic attack or the physical attack but I would save the “big” moves for important moments instead of spamming Mark of the Hunted every turn. Now will this help alleviate the battle mage issue- probably not. But it does make it where you don’t see the same moves constantly that are stronger than what the melee people use each turn.

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For example, "fire barriers." Those are pretty popular spells, I'm not trying to call out anyone in particular. But whenever someone makes a fire barrier I always facepalm. Flames aren't solid. They can't stop projectiles. If you have the counter argument "the projectile is burned up before it reaches the person," then that implies those flames are so hot that they can, in a split second, disintegrate anything that comes near them. So why not just turn them on and WALK TOWARDS the enemy? On one side, you have mister swordsman who trained to parry, stab, and slash. On the other hand, you have mister mage who has Fire, Water, Earth, Wind, Heart, and everything else at his command--or else he has Fire alone, but he can fight with it, he can defend with it, he can heal with it, he can buff and debuff with it, he can fly with it, and he can support with it. It's way too much. I'm a fan of having single but versatile powersets, but that's just. Too. Much.


Yeah this was me about 10 years ago! But Jake got better after CoH1. His fire barrier became- keep stupid people from charging me and with the heavy armor ensured projectiles were useless. And walking towards the enemy was an active strategy to keep enemies at bay by the last version. I would like to say that in general I’ve gotten slightly better since then.


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Except for whenever any kind of puzzle or not-immediately-obvious situation comes up and the first reaction is "LET'S BLAST IT." Like it has been in numerous RPs in the past.


In my defense, I’m just as bad with a physical character too. A spell, an explosive, a cement truck, a cannon, an enemy’s stolen airship are all equal when you drop it onto the enemy base. Or drill/dig underneath the base. Or flood it by destroying a local damn or any number of ways to trivialize a puzzle by truly thinking outside of the box and not caring if everything around it is destroyed. After all, we are usually either after an indestructible plot trinket or after a boss hiding in their lair. Sure my way might involve digging for a little while for the prize/body in either case, but it is just as likely with a martial character as a magical one. Perhaps more so with a martial one if you let me have explosives early on.

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Being hard to access isn't a good feature, in my opinion. If your game is hard to the point that a large number of people can't play it, that's called a design flaw. In perfect honesty, I DON'T have fun with NT's stat system. I join because I find the setting intriguing and lets me use different characters than other RP's. NT was also the one to suggest I ditch the stat system for FA, and already I'm toying with ways of removing stats and limits ENTIRELY from an RP while still keeping it balanced and fun. It's not impossible, and it's certainly very possible if you get creative with the RP's mechanics and think of ways to prevent the Sue characters from happening.

It makes me sad that you don’t like my system, but very happy that you find my setting intriguing and it lets you explore different character designs. But the most important thing, to my eyes, is that stats should exist primarily for the admin/narrator. We are the ones who have to worry about balance. If stats help you get there, great you are like me. If stats hinder you toward that goal, then remove them.
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I think the point that Onime is trying to make though is that we've sorta hit a point in our RPs where you NEED magic to keep up. Not only that but it works in the reverse too, you need martial capabilities to keep up as well. If someone has 1 thing they do very well, what do they do when someone comes along who isn't weak to that one thing? Along with that, Magic for the most part is something with very low barrier to entry meaning pretty much everyone can have it. The systems basically lend themselves to making as Onime has taken to call them, Spellswords (yes you can have different names to specialize in certain things, but he has a point, they use spells and swords basically). There is no reason for most characters why you WOULDN'T just make a character know magic and be capable of melee combat. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, I feel like it's just sorta been causing, and sorry for bringing Magic the Gathering terms into this, a power creep. Over time our characters have been getting stronger and stronger as a result of "why not's" and "not wanting to be left behind". Or at least that's how I see it.


Story time! I had a character called Isadora, once upon a time. She was best known for being a manipulative bitch who managed to get both Matt’s and Oni’s characters to commit ritualized suicide to become her summons Final Fantasy 10 style. But let’s talk about her build for a moment instead. She used two types of magic: Summoning, where things the party had beaten became her pets to use and Buffs where she added her pet’s abilities to allies, creating say Ghost Twi’s character, Living Armor Matt’s character etc. But to the point above, she didn’t have any martial abilities, she couldn’t run well, she couldn’t hide well and couldn’t beat up a small dog in a fight. As such, anytime that Isadora was within 20 feet of a character, she got beat all to hell or had to run. By about half way through the plot, the admin (Onime at the time) started bringing her weapons with notes on them saying, learn how to shoot a bow! Try hitting things with the staff instead of selling it! Maybe a chainball might let you not lose to every melee centric foe! So needless to say, she was very difficult to plan for. On one end, she had a summon which did pretty well or made another character much stronger, but Isadora herself was often in a bad position. With that being said, most characters NEED some sort of martial abilities and magical abilities if they are going to do well on their own.

Now how did get Isadora to survive? Did she learn to use a sword and become a battle mage? No she never went anywhere alone again. Partially because as a character she blackmails others into helping her (and paying for everything, poor Matt) but mostly because on her own she would die to a stiff wind or any foe that got within 100 feet before her summon could deal with it. However, with how many of our RPs are set up, it is challenging to always have a party around you. Between the way we do missions (often multiple at once, with characters not sticking together), the types of foes we face (swarms like in VoC, boss battles that hit everything etc) and the types of challenges we need to do. While it would eb possible to use a character like this here again- it is very challenging and often inferior to everyone else.

Although on a personal level, if anyone baring BO lets me use Isadora with summoning or fusing again I will be very excited! Something about the idea of having a summon with say 3 moves and being able to combine it into any other RPer’s character and let them use both sets is a lot of fun and something I sorely miss. Plus I bet that Isadora could manage to get at least a few more slaves for her blackmaily, coerciony, flirty army of awe struck male heroes.
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Onime No Ryu
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So. Sera's Fireball, Ammy's Black Needle. Darion's Jet Stream. Ritzea's Light Axe. They're all projectile damage attacks, yes. But let's look at their particular niches. Sera's attack fits her niche as a defensive mage - high setup, high impact. Ammy's fits hers as a quick, fine attack - likely gets an OHKO, passes on through. Darion's works to combine with his physical attacks - weakens and slows them to improve his damage. And Ritzea's works as a support - sets up a situation for others.

In addition, keep in mind that these are more or less "bread and butter" abilities for mages. The equivalent for a melee fighter is "Sword slash" or "Jab". It's silly to complain how everyone's slashes and jabs are the same because they should be everywhere.
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I heard my name- So to clarify, basically it’s a simple MP system as opposed to a fatigue system as seen in Sin’s RP. Almost all of mine have them in some way. Basically any simple melee or magic attack (like say our fireballs, sonic blasts etc that are named usually but in mine aren’t) are considered free to use at will. Any named move has either a Stamina Point (physical moves) cost or a Magical Point (magical moves) cost, usually determined via a ranking system to narrow down on comparative abilities. They are very useful for ensuring someone doesn’t spam powerful moves or (as originally designed) make it where PvP fights last forever.

Now one complaint for most magic users is that their basic spam move (Angelo and Mark of the Hunted, Sera and Fireball etc) comes from the fact that they do not possess the ability to just make a basic spell that functions like Lee’s jab, Aran’s thrusts, Feng’s smash etc. This is why I advocate for magic users (or anyone else who chooses to use one/equip an item that makes it) has access to a simple magical attack. For example with Angelo- imagine if he had the option (for no cost) to use either slash with his katana or create a dark blast from his hands. For 3MP he could use Doppleganger, 2MP for Mark of the Hunted and 2SP for a dodging move. At any point, it gives me the option to use the magic attack or the physical attack but I would save the “big” moves for important moments instead of spamming Mark of the Hunted every turn. Now will this help alleviate the battle mage issue- probably not. But it does make it where you don’t see the same moves constantly that are stronger than what the melee people use each turn.

These both make the very valid point of a "default attack" not existing for mages. I can totally agree that having something very basic at your disposable, while MP costs only applied to bigger things, would be very useful. However, it would also need to be a very specific thing in my opinion. To clarify what I WOULDN'T want, look at the Avatar series. While that series is totally great, the characters tend to do lots of little things, and then finish with big impressive moves. Katara, for instance, would whip that little water stream around, throw some ice cicles, etc, THEN she would bring out the big tidal wave.

The reason I wouldn't want this is because, even on a smaller scale, Katara has access to a lot of stuff that, RP wise, would be too much. She could whip the water, she could throw ice, she could make a more condensed ball of water, she could use it to grapple or blast or stream. What I would prefer for an RP, is if that little Water Whip was her bread and butter attack, and then she could use the other things as named and more powerful moves.

But yes, I agree that this would be a good thing.

ALSO, as to the whole "each 'fireball' is different," when you explain it that way I do see more of what you and Niroth meant. I think one way to make that even more evident, though, would be with things like Status Effects that are somewhat unique to each element or spell type. For instance, if many types of Fire Spells caused Burn damage over time, whereas Lightning Spells caused Paralysis and Ice Spells caused Slow, each spell would more directly serve some different aspect of hindering the enemy beyond simple direct damage.

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Did you ever hear anyone say, "Man, Lee is incredibly weak, he'll be left behind the rest of the party if he doesn't get magic?" Yes, he was weaker than everyone else, but it was also narratively justified, and at least personally, there was always an expectation he'd grow rather strong. But you jump the gun and give him magic, make him stronger, then make a point about how if he didn't gain magic he'd be left behind. That's like me going to higher year uni class, struggling, then before I try and actually learn anything, cheat and then make a point about how cheating is necessary. You could have willingly decided to not give Lee such an artificial power up - but even before the power up, recall he had among the highest kills in the entire group.


The reason I had Lee learn magic beyond the whole Evil Ryu parallel is because, in-character, he noticed the same thing I did: so many people seem to be good at both magic and melee. So he thought he had to do the same thing to catch up. I've tried to make it more story focused, though, in that it's reflective of just one of the stages he'll grow through as a character. Right now, this being his first war, he's seeing a lot of carnage, a lot of scary things, a lot of negative things. The darkness he has been exposed to is changing him as a person. He'll need to "see the light" again at some point, perhaps even literally.

As for how powerful he seems despite going around saying "I suck" all the time, yeah that's pretty much my failing. On one hand I did want him to be a weaker character who grew over time. On the other hand I didn't want to feel completely useless and drag everyone else down. I'll talk more about characters feeling useless when I get to some of Garm's quotes later on.

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Options aren't everything. Competence is. Every character's building competence in their own niche. And think about this - in some way, all of those things I list is helpful in understanding and manipulating quantum mechanics in some form. If someone built up all those skills with the goal of being a theoretical physicist, are they a jack of all trades? Hardly. They're working towards being a theoretical physicist. It's just that all of those broad paint strokes are needed for that goal. Like how so many of our characters need some "basic fireball" attack before they can be a siege mage/deadly prankster/freezing striker/offensive support.


How does knowing swordsmanship and whatnot help one become a master mage, though? And what other kind of broad strokes are really necessary for that field? This seems to me like it would be hard to talk about from either of our standpoints, because since magic's not real we have no real idea of what kind of study should go into that field.

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To answer those questions for myself, I make "boring spellswords" because I've always been interested in the fantastic, which, for me, is the generic sword and magic spells that I never got to have. Those little things that keep me interested. For you, maybe they're boring. For me, they're an incredible world that I get to explore that I never get to otherwise, aside from maybe reading about it.

THIS is why I make "boring spellsword" characters. Maybe they're boring to read, sure, but I still want to write them. I like how they play out. And, even then! EVEN THEN! It's just a neat little thing for me! In the long term, I'd prefer to focus on the story, the narrative that I've been planning for my boring spellsword Volke, my stupid Mary Sue Spellsword Ritzea! It's just what interests me, and I'm sorry for using exclamation points!

I don't know how people treated you in the past about martial artists, but the few times I've seen you RP they were hilarious! Well-written! Funny! ADMITTEDLY, you had some magic here for your character that you probably forgot! But, y'know what? It was still good to read, and you're still a good roleplayer! Fuck those guys in the past who said that! otherwise. I meant to say otherwise here.

I know I, personally, don't ridicule people for making spellswords today. I know it's a valid point, when you brought up the whole "how is everyone good at both of those, I've been doing martial arts for 11 years!" I took that into consideration! But at the same time, I'm not focusing on the whole spellswords mechanic! I'd rather look at the narrative that we're all wonderfully writing, rather than scream at people for making unbalanced characters! That means I won't yell at Roth for making a sound-based melee fighter! I'll praise him for making Aria such an interesting character! Bridging the past to who she is now, and leading to the abilities she has now! I will yell at Yggdra for making Amaterasu such a weird character that doesn't fit in, not because she's blowing up people with one spell, but because it doesn't make sense to me!

What I'm saying is that no one here is making fun of anyone else's characters. If that happened in the past, we're all adults now! We can poke at people for fun, like how Kaze makes swollen tanks, or Yggdra making solely powerful characters, or Matt making a "generic hero"!


I agree, magic is part of what makes Fantasy fantastical. If I wanted to read stories about the real world, I'd just go outside and live in the real world. I've always been more entertained by the fantastic. The thing is, just like the real world, too much of the same gets boring. And I've just been kind of bored recently because, from my opinion, I've seen the same characters over and over. I guess that's just a personal problem for me, and more than a little bit of bitterness rising up from the past. I apologize, to everyone, for letting that leak out.

I wouldn't call Ritzea stupid or a Mary Sue. She's great as a character. What I have a problem with is that she doesn't stand out as much as I think she should, because she's so great, because there are so many other characters ALSO doing the spell thing. Not to say they copied you or that you were first, but it's like you're all crimpin' on each others' style in a way, you know?

Thanks for taking my ideas into consideration, not just you but everyone, and thanks for listening even when I got angry. I know I'm not the easiest person to deal with sometimes.

And yeah, I guess I really should just stop holding onto my grudges from the past. Sorry about that, again.

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I think the point that Onime is trying to make though is that we've sorta hit a point in our RPs where you NEED magic to keep up. Not only that but it works in the reverse too, you need martial capabilities to keep up as well. If someone has 1 thing they do very well, what do they do when someone comes along who isn't weak to that one thing? Along with that, Magic for the most part is something with very low barrier to entry meaning pretty much everyone can have it. The systems basically lend themselves to making as Onime has taken to call them, Spellswords (yes you can have different names to specialize in certain things, but he has a point, they use spells and swords basically). There is no reason for most characters why you WOULDN'T just make a character know magic and be capable of melee combat. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, I feel like it's just sorta been causing, and sorry for bringing Magic the Gathering terms into this, a power creep. Over time our characters have been getting stronger and stronger as a result of "why not's" and "not wanting to be left behind". Or at least that's how I see it.


This is pretty much hitting the nail on the head, thanks Garm.

This is a problem I constantly struggle with when I make melee characters. What if an enemy with a Null Phys barrier shows up? Normally, this would be where you admit your character's shortcomings, acknowledge that you can't do it all yourself, and then step back and let someone else step in. If it was just Lee and Ammy, Fighter and Mage, this would work just fine. Lee would handle up close and personal threats, Ammy would handle ranged fighting and things that physical attacks couldn't get through to.

But if Ritzea (just an example, not because I dislike her, see above) can hit the Null Magic enemy with her sword, and hit the Null Phys enemy with her fireball, then...what use are Lee and Ammy? If Lee and Ammy weren't present, that enemy would be defeated all the same. They become superfluous, unnecessary, maybe even unwanted. And no one wants that for their character. Those are the feelings that Yggdra and I, and probably me moreso than her just becasue I'm the one that brought this all up, are struggling with right now. Feeling like we're not helping anyone or serving any real purpose in the RP.

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When I made Veil of Chaos, one of the things that remained at the back of my mind was to keep a balance between melee and magic and I like to think I did it pretty well. I went with a battlefield style because one guy wielding a sword will be able to do what one mage wielding their magic can do in the same run of time. We're all adults here and I'm reasonably certain that the bulk of us understand that. I didn't feel the need to police every little thing because with the exception of only one person I can think of, we're all here to tell a story and have our characters evolve over the course of it.


Yes, it's definitely worked better than the honor system in the past. And, like was mentioned earlier, a physical fighter and a magic fighter can kill the same number of peons in the same amount of time with the same amount of difficulty. In that area, you have definitely succeeded. What I'm worried about is more the power levels when compared to higher tiered enemies or enemies geared towards defeating other "classes," and with too many characters seeming too samey. I don't have any problem at all with how your system is structured or how you're running it, and I'm sorry if I ever came off that way.

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With something like this, it just sparks conversations, brainstorms and everything else because there's more to do. One person might start on about where they want to take their characters next. They might want to build up vitality so they can take more damage in a fight before retreating. Do I do it by levelling up and devoting more points into that stat? Do I learn a new ability to help in that regard? Do I look to spend more gold on items that will increase durability? Can someone else learn a skill to help me out? What combo attacks can we do? If you're heavier than I am and able to take more damage, should you lead the charge while I hang back and attack from afar?

Each topic breeds a new idea and in all honesty, watching you guys go back and forth with my RP being the root of it all, it feels good. It feels like I'm watching my children grow up and that's why I do this and why I spend as much time here as I possibly can. I'm proud of my work and I'm proud of how it brings everyone together like it does and allows us to have fun. So many conversations and discussions about what's going on, what's to come and what you all can do to improve the characters you've created is just fantastic.

When I designed the stats and the items and all of that stuff, it was to promote discussion and customization because those are things that I am attracted to when I'm looking for something fun to do. If I start playing a game that doesn't let me change my appearance or customize my character(s) at all, it won't keep my attention for very long. All of the games I play the most have thousands of hours in to them because I'm able to do that stuff so when I make RPs, I always try to implement as much customization as possible because, as far as I know, we all enjoy it.


I completely and utterly agree with this. This is another reason I like status, because of that VISUAL sense of progression in addition to the general sense of it you get by going through the story organically. And I totally agree and understand the point about wanting people to have fun, be creative, and enjoy something you've created that brings us all together.

Once again, I wanna urge people to give Sin a big hand of applause and thanks for making VotM, VoC, her other RPs, and for working so hard to make things enjoyable for us.

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Not every character has to be a high-level badass for everyone to have fun. Sometimes it's enjoyable to play the underdog who always gets their butt kicked. Sometimes it's fun to play the tactician who sits back and observes. Sometimes it's fun to play the hard-headed daredevil who charges in head-first without a care in the world.


Yes, this is also what I'm getting at. I feel like the reason spellswords are so common is because people aren't considering the more varied roles they could be playing, in addition to the "gameplay advantage" they get by covering both fields.

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Writing this has been excruciating because I can only use two fingers on my left hand. :|

Sorry for making you respond to this, Sin. Hope you feel better soon, and thank you for all your hard work with the RPs and the site in general! I really, really appreciate it and I'm sure everyone else does too!

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There is one issue here- everyone is a diplomat since almost ALL characters intend to talk and move the plot around, no one does stealth/skill based missions in their RPs for the most part with the exception of rare situations where it is stats (not some form of skills) that make all the difference. So that means in reality our group would be a frontline fighter, an offensive mage, a defensive mage and a healer (which is often deemed part of the defense mage’s bag). As such, in many RPs the real party composition is fighter, offensive mage and defensive mage. Now with the addition of a battlemage (part fighter, part offensive or defensive which means Paladins and the ilk would fall here too) that means realistically there are four real roles. Suddenly with that in mind, it makes more sense why we have the distribution we do.


This is true too. Making sure that an RP or a stat system is going to have a variety of situations and applications beyond just fighting and talking is a must-do for everyone who admins an RP or wants to admin one. But as said before, finding the place of traditional, Zelda style puzzles is hard, and because we see it so woefully little, I think MGS style stealth missions are probably hard to place too.

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In my defense, I’m just as bad with a physical character too. A spell, an explosive, a cement truck, a cannon, an enemy’s stolen airship are all equal when you drop it onto the enemy base. Or drill/dig underneath the base. Or flood it by destroying a local damn or any number of ways to trivialize a puzzle by truly thinking outside of the box and not caring if everything around it is destroyed. After all, we are usually either after an indestructible plot trinket or after a boss hiding in their lair. Sure my way might involve digging for a little while for the prize/body in either case, but it is just as likely with a martial character as a magical one. Perhaps more so with a martial one if you let me have explosives early on.


My only real problem with this is that sometimes it's frustrating to watch a system you worked so hard to develop be broken down by a brainless brute force method. Like when I design dungeon puzzles and everyone just wind-jumps across the bottomless pit instead of triggering the bridge by figuring out the switch combination. Yes, thinking outside the box is good. But also, sometimes people fail to consider the implications and consequences of these things. I know it's not always fun to bring MUH REALISM into an RP, but I mean really, would YOU trust the kind of hero who goes around dropping literal bombs all over the place in the hopes of blowing up a wall, going into a house and smashing pots, etc?

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Story time! I had a character called Isadora, once upon a time. She was best known for being a manipulative bitch who managed to get both Matt’s and Oni’s characters to commit ritualized suicide to become her summons Final Fantasy 10 style. But let’s talk about her build for a moment instead. She used two types of magic: Summoning, where things the party had beaten became her pets to use and Buffs where she added her pet’s abilities to allies, creating say Ghost Twi’s character, Living Armor Matt’s character etc. But to the point above, she didn’t have any martial abilities, she couldn’t run well, she couldn’t hide well and couldn’t beat up a small dog in a fight. As such, anytime that Isadora was within 20 feet of a character, she got beat all to hell or had to run. By about half way through the plot, the admin (Onime at the time) started bringing her weapons with notes on them saying, learn how to shoot a bow! Try hitting things with the staff instead of selling it! Maybe a chainball might let you not lose to every melee centric foe! So needless to say, she was very difficult to plan for. On one end, she had a summon which did pretty well or made another character much stronger, but Isadora herself was often in a bad position. With that being said, most characters NEED some sort of martial abilities and magical abilities if they are going to do well on their own.

Now how did get Isadora to survive? Did she learn to use a sword and become a battle mage? No she never went anywhere alone again. Partially because as a character she blackmails others into helping her (and paying for everything, poor Matt) but mostly because on her own she would die to a stiff wind or any foe that got within 100 feet before her summon could deal with it. However, with how many of our RPs are set up, it is challenging to always have a party around you. Between the way we do missions (often multiple at once, with characters not sticking together), the types of foes we face (swarms like in VoC, boss battles that hit everything etc) and the types of challenges we need to do. While it would eb possible to use a character like this here again- it is very challenging and often inferior to everyone else.


The way you solved that is EXACTLY how I wish we solved more things in RPs--by WORKING TOGETHER. Isadora manipulated/befriended people to make up for her weaknesses! I don't remember suggesting she get a weapon, but if I did I'm glad you ignored it. Now, I can totally see a cleric using a shield and mace as like, a backup last resort. But if, in addition to their holy spells, they're whirling it around like they've used it for 10+ years and solely devoted their time to learning every tactic and technique associated with it and doing lots of pushups to be able to swing it easily, maybe they shouldn't actually be a Cleric.

Characters who are more distinct give more options to let EVERYONE shine, AND to interact with each other while they're doing it! It would be completely different from the "everyone for themselves" mentality that seems to pervade everything right now.
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For instance, if many types of Fire Spells caused Burn damage over time, whereas Lightning Spells caused Paralysis and Ice Spells caused Slow, each spell would more directly serve some different aspect of hindering the enemy beyond simple direct damage.


That limits creativity. Limits options. Decreases the ability to create niches. So you want a mage that focuses on holding a line? Well, you basically have to use Ice because they bring in slows! As it does, each spell does directly serve a different aspect for a different niche - just keep your eyes open and you'll see them all.

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How does knowing swordsmanship and whatnot help one become a master mage, though? And what other kind of broad strokes are really necessary for that field? This seems to me like it would be hard to talk about from either of our standpoints, because since magic's not real we have no real idea of what kind of study should go into that field.


No one's goal is to be a master mage. Your point's clear, but I've already answered that issue here - each skillset's (weapons and spells, if it may be) working towards that niche.

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This is a problem I constantly struggle with when I make melee characters. What if an enemy with a Null Phys barrier shows up? Normally, this would be where you admit your character's shortcomings, acknowledge that you can't do it all yourself, and then step back and let someone else step in. If it was just Lee and Ammy, Fighter and Mage, this would work just fine. Lee would handle up close and personal threats, Ammy would handle ranged fighting and things that physical attacks couldn't get through to.


Teamwork. And, again, when was the last time that an enemy has had some special Null Phys barrier? And when was the last time that the only possible way to participate was by handling that enemy?

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I know it's not always fun to bring MUH REALISM into an RP, but I mean really, would YOU trust the kind of hero who goes around dropping literal bombs all over the place in the hopes of blowing up a wall, going into a house and smashing pots, etc?


Then ensure those actions have consequences. As seems to be happening for, say, Angelo right now.

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Characters who are more distinct give more options to let EVERYONE shine, AND to interact with each other while they're doing it! It would be completely different from the "everyone for themselves" mentality that seems to pervade everything right now.


Isn't that what's happening now? Everyone's doing their own unique thing. But you talk about how everyone's the same, and also, how Lee's weaker than everyone else, and also... doesn't stand out, because he's so weak, because he's not the same spellsword as everyone else? I'm finding it difficult to understand the main line you're taking in this discussion.
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I really don't have much else to add to this after my piece was said, so lemme just point out that even though Ritz might not actually stand out to you because of her ability to fught in melee with a sword and ranged with magic, it's the abilities she has that differentiates her and others. Effectively, sure, she'll be blowing up baddies with either a wave of fire or a beam of lightning if not stabbing them with a sword, but she'll also allow for some unique support that others could capitalize on. it's her niche, and it's supposed to demonstrate the sidelines character she should be, not taking the glory but giving it to other characters that she'll write about. If she has to step in and help another character's story by saving their life, then she has the tools for that too. And, finally, the anguish that happens when a flag, like in a story, is unfinished, then it's like all the plans and emotions that were used to make that flag (foreshadowing and whatnot) suddenly wash up and blow up. That's her entire fighting style, worked into her own story and bio. Why, then, does she have a sword? She's trying to follow in her father's footsteps (not to mention learn what kind of person he was), who was a heroic mercenary. And heroes prefer swords! So, looking up to her father, she learned how to use a sword when she was younger. She still uses one now because she worships her dad still.

Another example: Volke and his wind magic. Other than fitting the archetype of a thief, he's mainly imitating what a hero might have in a story or video game: a spinning attack, a razor wind sword beam, and a finisher involving flashy lights and lightning. Then I added "Medvind," letting him jump into the fray and inspire teamwork by following up others attacks. Just like a hero would, jump right in and let his allies back him up in his quest for glory. He's doing this because he thinks it'll let him be a hero, which is why he too started with a sword (now on his father's dagger)

So, yes, there's overlapping ideas between these two, but they're to fit a theme or backstory or desire that they want in their lives. Maybe that does end up with using magic, but it's never the fact that they can use it and other things, but what they do with them, or what they represent to the character.
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That limits creativity. Limits options. Decreases the ability to create niches. So you want a mage that focuses on holding a line? Well, you basically have to use Ice because they bring in slows! As it does, each spell does directly serve a different aspect for a different niche - just keep your eyes open and you'll see them all.


How does adding more status effects--more options--limit creativity and options? Not everyone has to use them, but having them makes a bigger difference between "Fireball" and "Fireball that takes the shape of a spear or something." Maybe the fire spear decreases the defensive ability of what it hits to symbolize "piercing through." Just having "cool moves" isn't enough to make the character truly unique if the cool moves don't do anything. Ritzea's flags are an example, because even Persona's said that they've become pretty superfluous--though this isn't necessarily his fault, as other players including myself haven't made much of an effort to make use of them I guess.

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And, again, when was the last time that an enemy has had some special Null Phys barrier? And when was the last time that the only possible way to participate was by handling that enemy?


It's a staple of RPs, just like the RPGs they're often drawn from, to have multitudes of different enemies with different abilities. As for participation, I'm not saying I couldn't handle not being able to take out that enemy. If Lee has to step back and let Ammy use a magic spell on an enemy that's immune to brute force, that's fine. Ammy, in turn, would eventually run up against something immune to her magic and let Lee handle that. But if Ritzea can handle both enemies because she has magic and melee, then why are Lee and Ammy even there other than to serve as comic relief or some other "less important" narrative role?

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I'm finding it difficult to understand the main line you're taking in this discussion.


I don't know why, I keep trying to make it as clear as possible but I guess I just can't find the right words or something. And every time I or Garm or someone else tries to simplify it you just throw it back and say it's not good enough and you don't know where we're going with the discussion anymore. Look man I wasn't on debate team or anything, I just know I'm having less fun and not as interested in reading other people's characters because they're so similar and they all make my character feel useless.
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How does adding more status effects--more options--limit creativity and options? Not everyone has to use them, but having them makes a bigger difference between "Fireball" and "Fireball that takes the shape of a spear or something." Maybe the fire spear decreases the defensive ability of what it hits to symbolize "piercing through." Just having "cool moves" isn't enough to make the character truly unique if the cool moves don't do anything. Ritzea's flags are an example, because even Persona's said that they've become pretty superfluous--though this isn't necessarily his fault, as other players including myself haven't made much of an effort to make use of them I guess.


I assumed you meant for all Fire spells to have a burn, all Ice spells to slow, etc. Assumed wrong.

What you're saying (the potential for secondary effects), though, is exactly what happens now, then. Darion's "Fireball" freezes an enemy. Ritzea's "Fireball" slows people and allows follow up damage. Sera and Ammy's "secondary effects" are atypical, but still there - Sera's creates large AoE damage, Ammy's does a pierce. What's the issue there?

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It's a staple of RPs, just like the RPGs they're often drawn from, to have multitudes of different enemies with different abilities. As for participation, I'm not saying I couldn't handle not being able to take out that enemy. If Lee has to step back and let Ammy use a magic spell on an enemy that's immune to brute force, that's fine. Ammy, in turn, would eventually run up against something immune to her magic and let Lee handle that. But if Ritzea can handle both enemies because she has magic and melee, then why are Lee and Ammy even there other than to serve as comic relief or some other "less important" narrative role?


Is it really a staple? When was the last time this all happened, then? It seems you're complaining about Lee's inability to handle an enemy that doesn't even, or won't even exist. Imagine if Persona complained, out of nowhere, about Ritzea's inability to win a martial arts contest because they could appear in an RP. What would you think? "Why the hell would there be a martial arts contest in an RP and, if there was, why would Ritzea have to participate?" That's exactly what I'm left wondering now.

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I don't know why, I keep trying to make it as clear as possible but I guess I just can't find the right words or something. And every time I or Garm or someone else tries to simplify it you just throw it back and say it's not good enough and you don't know where we're going with the discussion anymore. Look man I wasn't on debate team or anything, I just know I'm having less fun and not as interested in reading other people's characters because they're so similar and they all make my character feel useless.


You say you're a good writer. You do arts. Your whole stick is about being able to show others what it is you have inside your head. Use that.

From what I understand, though, your argument mainly falls along two lines:

1) In combat, everyone's characters are boring and superfluous because they're all spellswords
2) In combat, Lee feels useless because he's not a spellsword.

Am I right about that?
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Onime No Ryu
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Dreaming Sun
February 12, 2015, 1:51 pm
From what I understand, though, your argument mainly falls along two lines:

1) In combat, everyone's characters are boring and superfluous because they're all spellswords
2) In combat, Lee feels useless because he's not a spellsword.

Am I right about that?
Yeah pretty much.

Well since this conversation hasn't gone anywhere other than me apparently being super wrong about everything, I guess I'll shift the subject desperately in an attempt to get SOME positivity for myself out of this.

If everyone still has unique characters even though they all do the same thing, and everyone still fulfills unique niches while all doing the same things, and everyone still has equal weaknesses and strengths while all being useful and being able to do everything themselves without needing anyone else, then what's wrong with me and the way I'm doing everything? Why am I not satisfied, and what could I do to fix the issue of my characters being totally superfluous, unnecessary, and feeling like they're behind everyone else no matter what actual level they're at because of their inherent disadvantages? What could I do to fix my problems?
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That's for you to answer. From the beginning, then? If you're usually satisfied, and right now you're not satisfied, well.

What do you normally find so satisfying about your characters?


Never mind. Shiny gives the better advice.
Edited by Dreaming Sun, February 16, 2015, 1:42 pm.
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The solution seem pretty obvious from the sidelines.

1. Acquire swords
2. Learn non-self-buff magic
3. Tie swords to fists or something to maintain martial arts flavor

Join them.
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Maybe find satisfaction in your character beyond combat effectiveness? Nicolas was pretty weak in combat, and he's still one of my all-time favorite characters.
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I'm not saying you're super wrong, just saying that I don't look at it the same way you do. I prefer to look at it with a more narrative perspective, and you look at it in a more gameplay oriented perspective. If you want my opinion on Lee, then he's the naive martial artist that was thrust into war when he wasn't even planning to, and suddenly finding himself very effectual despite the impracticality of his fighting in a war. He does what he does well: protect his friends, get stronger, hit hard. It's a different angle to everything that everyone else does, like you said, and I know it's a reflection of you, personally, which is always a great thing to read. Lee's already a great character in my eyes, if a little "main character-y," which isn't a bad thing! Just means he has more focus on growth than others.

And, well, if Lee's specializing in one specific thing, then I feel like he'd have an easier time deal with physical things. Sure, you mentioned Ritzea could sword things if they got close, but... well, I know it'll be late, but I'm thinking she's going to stop growing Strength, and that this is the peak of her physical growth. And she definitely won't be as effective in sword-ing people as Lee would punching. She'd be too slow or weak in front (low Dex and Vit), only have a bit of power (moderate Strength at best), and be more suited to support (Higher Magic, plans for better Charisma). Lee, on the other hand, will end up being decently fast, extremely durable and strong... It's finding his niche and sticking with it, all while writing a great character that you're already doing.
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February 16, 2015, 1:40 pm
That's for you to answer. From the beginning, then? If you're usually satisfied, and right now you're not satisfied, well.

What do you normally find so satisfying about your characters?
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Maybe find satisfaction in your character beyond combat effectiveness? Nicolas was pretty weak in combat, and he's still one of my all-time favorite characters.


I enjoy telling stories and developing characters, but I ALSO highly enjoy the combat part of RPs, and I don't want to be completely useless at it when Quadratic Mages and Linear Fighters goes into effect later on, or like right now where my character doesn't seem to fit into anything or have anything that makes him "unique" gameplay wise. I enjoy both gameplay and story, and sticking to one or the other isn't my style.

Lee, even as a character, is supposed to be an examination of martial arts and the meaning behind them--were they simply tools for murder, like other fighting methods throughout history from stone to bronze to iron, or is there something more to "the way of the fist?" How can he do that if he sucks at fighting so much? It would just come off as "Oh, he's only good at theory stuff, just a useless philosopher. He can't do squat in a REAL battle."

For Shiny's answer, I did do that, way back when. In CoH Tai had both magic and martial arts because, why the hell not, everyone else had magic and swords and airship fleets. And to this day Tai is probably remembered for nothing else besides being super fucking OP. So OP that all my characters afterwards were tainted with it and I got banned or ragequit from other RPs because of flame wars with people over whether or not I was godmodding, breaking rules, etc etc.
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February 16, 2015, 1:55 pm
Dreaming Sun
February 16, 2015, 1:40 pm
That's for you to answer. From the beginning, then? If you're usually satisfied, and right now you're not satisfied, well.

What do you normally find so satisfying about your characters?
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Maybe find satisfaction in your character beyond combat effectiveness? Nicolas was pretty weak in combat, and he's still one of my all-time favorite characters.


I enjoy telling stories and developing characters, but I ALSO highly enjoy the combat part of RPs, and I don't want to be completely useless at it when Quadratic Mages and Linear Fighters goes into effect later on, or like right now where my character doesn't seem to fit into anything or have anything that makes him "unique" gameplay wise. I enjoy both gameplay and story, and sticking to one or the other isn't my style.

Lee, even as a character, is supposed to be an examination of martial arts and the meaning behind them--were they simply tools for murder, like other fighting methods throughout history from stone to bronze to iron, or is there something more to "the way of the fist?" How can he do that if he sucks at fighting so much? It would just come off as "Oh, he's only good at theory stuff, just a useless philosopher. He can't do squat in a REAL battle."

For Shiny's answer, I did do that, way back when. In CoH Tai had both magic and martial arts because, why the hell not, everyone else had magic and swords and airship fleets. And to this day Tai is probably remembered for nothing else besides being super fucking OP. So OP that all my characters afterwards were tainted with it and I got banned or ragequit from other RPs because of flame wars with people over whether or not I was godmodding, breaking rules, etc etc.
Oddly enough I read that last paragraph as "This is why we shouldn't compete with the extremist knight templar who is gearing up to be the series end big bad nor the guy that the author decided was the current embodiment of Link within the narrative." Of course, I will admit having a bit of fun regarding Tai. My personal character even got the chance to burn down his home town with hell fire, so I'd say that we were all too OP by the end. Or we went too long. Or maybe it was just that no one was smart enough to establish ground rules first. But first and foremost, I blame BO.
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I'm going to be completely blunt here because a) you can take it and b) i've tried being implicit long enough through this entire thread.

Lee had something completely unique about him. He was a sole martial artist, a Badass Normal surrounded by people who fought with more than just their bodies. That was Lee's whole unique thing.

Now, let me look at, say, the last two pages of VoC, and compare the "original" character kill counts and their classes.

Feng, 62, Phys
Sera, 59, Mag
Xenon, 52, Phys
Aria, 52, Mix
Angelo, 50, Mix
Lee, 49, Mix
Darion, 49, Mix
Aran, 46, Phys
Eduardo, 38, Phys
Amaterasu, 29, Mag
Volke, 27, Mix
Ritz, 25, Mix

Of the five people who have higher kill counts than Lee, only two of them used mixed magical/physical setups. One of them would be completely justified IC if his kills were higher, because he's a prince. Additionally, the current highest kill count is purely physical. Additionally, Lee is 16. Additionally, I recall you telling me one time how Lee would handle pretty well against Odellus, because he was the strongest in the party. Additionally, Lee probably did the flashiest thing in the last battle EXCEPT FOR SOME OF ARIA'S STUFF I GUESS SORRY NIROTH, and you explicitly seemed to emphasise how he was the fastest and the very first character back.

One more fact. Back when Lee got his darkness magic, let's look at the kills:

Xenon, 52, Phys
Angelo, 50, Mix
Lee, 45, Phys
Aria, 42, Mix
Aran, 42, Phys
Darion, 42, Mix
Ed, 33, Phys
Sera, 33, Mag
Ritz, 25, Mix
Volke, 21, Mix
Ammy, 16, Mag

Now we've got a whole lot of data points. Let's try and make a story out of it.

You make a character. Made to be a martial arts specialised. A 16 year old hero, a deconstruction of the shounen hero archetype, from what I recall. Starting off weak and trying to get stronger. By the time we come across the first boss, Lee has the third highest amount of kills in the RP. And you think he's weaker than everyone else, so you give him a magical buff. He quickly obtains mastery of this magic, uses extraordinarily flashy moves with it, and in general, is the hammiest, most over the top character in the entire RP, except for maybe Angelo. The only difference is that Lee's power and hamminess is completely unjustified.

And then. You decide to talk about how weak Lee is. You give him a buff because he's so "weak" when he's one of the strongest characters, and then you complain that he's so weak because he's solely a martial artist, when he really isn't.

So:

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Lee, even as a character, is supposed to be an examination of martial arts and the meaning behind them--were they simply tools for murder, like other fighting methods throughout history from stone to bronze to iron, or is there something more to "the way of the fist?

Lee, having gone from a martial artist hero philosopher shounen deconstruction, to a generic moody DARKNESS shounen hero, has completely failed at this concept. In order to examine martial arts and his meaning, perhaps you should use a martial artist who actually primarily puts focus on martial arts.

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How can he do that if he sucks at fighting so much?

1) Although he really should, Lee does not suck at fighting so much. Compare his kills to the average.
2) Make a character who justfiably shouldnn't suck at fighting so much, maybe. Like a character who isn't 16 years old.


So. Let me put forward my final point, and you should seriously consider this. The facts show, time and time again, that Lee is not a weak character. On the other hand, you continually seem to perceive that he is. Have you thought that, maybe, you have a skewed perspective of what "underpowered" and "overpowered" means, and that everyone is shifting towards a "lower" average than you seem to think?
Edited by Dreaming Sun, February 16, 2015, 5:41 pm.
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Onime No Ryu
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I don't perceive Lee as being currently weak--I've actually been surprised multiple times that he's become as powerful as he is so quickly. But what I'm saying is that his strength is totally situational and that if he weren't around, literally pretty much anyone could step in for him because their strengths aren't so situational--the reason being that they have both magic and melee available to them. I'm also saying that his design, which I'm still totally into, is now beginning to seem pointless because it's starting to feel not only useless from a gameplay perspective but also inconsistent from a narrative perspective because magic is so common now that, if it's thought about logically, there doesn't seem to be any reason for anyone to do anything physical. Why not just have everyone float themselves around telekinetically and make objects appear in their hands instead of reaching for them? Why bother smelting metals when you could just conjure whatever weapon you want? That's honestly the kind of world I feel like VoC is becoming.

Magic is supposed to, in my opinion, be something kind of mysterious, and powerful, but not often employed with abandon because of all the limitations or dangers of using it. And...it's not. It's something literally everyone has. I mean it's acceptable that magic is more widespread in some ways because we're using RPG magic and not like, Gandalf style magic. But it still feels just way too easy.

But you're right again in that my perception is skewed. Being a fan of anime, which is so often hammy and over the top, my impression of what qualifies as dramatic and powerful and all of that theatrical stuff is probably way different from a lot of folks.

I guess it all comes down to my personal problems, and I don't really know how to fix those. Do you guys think Lee would benefit if I scrapped the magic somehow?
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Shiny
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If you want magic to be something mysterious and rare and powerful, maybe try proposing something along those lines for an RP? Cook up a premise that involves low/no-magic, see if there's interest, and then see how well it actually works for an RP/if it actually does anything to fix your complaints in practice/etc. if so? Like it's a totally valid preference to have, but so is having it be a common thing that's used pretty casually, and it sounds, from what I'm getting on the sidelines, like VoC skews more towards that side of things. So that's probably just an issue you're stuck with here by joining something built with a different view than yours re: how magic fits into things.
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