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A Dice Based Roleplay; Would you be willing to use this system?
Topic Started: September 1, 2013, 4:23 pm (1,931 Views)
Dreaming Sun
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If you want a 20% hit rate that doubles if double the dex, the formula is pretty easy. Calculate 20%*Attacker's Dexterity/Dodger's Dexterity. That's your percentage hit chance. So if they're both 42, then you get 20%*42/42 = 20%. If one is 372 and the other is 91, then you get 20%*372/91 = 81.75%. You would then roll 1d100, and, from there, if the roll is equal to or lesser than the value you calculated (rounded up, since you can't roll zero), you hit.

For absolute vs proportional differences, I feel absolute formulae are a lot more simple and have cleaner numbers, while proportional formulae allow much more variation. Your hit formula was a bit more simple than this, since you just add and subtract stuff, while this needs multiplication and division. However, if you say the chance of dodging is defender's dex - attacker's dex, then if the defender has 100 more dex than every hit misses. That's fair early since you aren't going to be that high, but later, it means the character is an invincible dodgetank to anyone who hasn't identically maxed dodge. On the other hand, using proportional formulae may reduce the viability of min-maxing stats, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing...

I'm too sleep addled to create a formulae now, but my idea for a good system would be to use many rolls. You know how rolling 2d6 most likely rolls a seven? Or how FE7 and later has a double RNG system that makes accurate attacks more likely to hit? My preference would be to use something like that: where the dodger must roll multiple dice and the sum/average is taken to determine whether you hit or not. I'll explain it better tomorrow, but basically it means you'll be punished for not putting a "minimum" of points in dex, you'll be well rewarded for "dabbling" in dex and going say, above average, and "maxing" dex is still a viable build path, although you won't autododge everything.
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Onime No Ryu
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So instead of rolling 1d20 to dodge, rolling 2d10 would be better?
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Dreaming Sun
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Pretty much. Or the FE route of rolling 2d100 and halving the result, which is what I'm inclined to pick.

So after a bit of thought, I may as well go with a simple formula, so this is my proposal.

Divide the Attacker's Dex by the Defender's Dex, multiply if by 50. Then roll 2d50. If the roll is less than or equal to the calculated value, there is a hit. Basically what this system does is:

If the attacker has 50% the dex, the chances are about 13%
If the attacker has 66% the dex, the chances are about 22%
If the attacker has 75% the dex, the chances are about 28%
If the attacker has 90% the dex, the chances are about 41%
If the attacker has 100% the dex, the chances are about 50%
If the attacker has 110% the dex, the chances are about 60%
If the attacker has 125% the dex, the chances are about 72%
If the attacker has 133% the dex, the chances are about 78%
If the attacker has 150% the dex, the chances are about 88%
If the attacker has 200% the dex, the chances are 100%

Basically, the advantage of this is that:
a) Autododges never happen
b) Dodgetanks are possible
c) "Dabbling" in dex is a viable buildpath
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Onime No Ryu
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I wonder if you could do that in a single line of code with the roll system?

Let's say Character A has 10 dex and Character B has 8.

And...

The roll system tells me "You appear to have a malformed roll. Please correct it and try again." I was trying to do "2d50+((10/8)*50), which I think is the mathematically written correctly but I guess either you can't do that complex an equation in the roll or else I've just done it wrong so that the code can't recognize it. Could someone who's better with BBC code give it a try?

But basically you'd end up with 10/8, which is 1.25, multiplied by 50 is 12 and 1/2, rounded to 13. So if this roll plus Character B's Dex bonus (+1) is equal to 13, Character B dodged.

[result]81&43:37,2d50,1,81&2d50+1[/result]
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Dreaming Sun
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I was thinking of sorta removing the mod system for dex because, while not particularly complicated, it does make the formulae a bit more unwieldy. In addition, it slowly approaches the auto-dodge/hit status again as dexterity increases.

I didn't expect to be able to do the full code here, but it's not particularly hard to solve. Everyone here can just use Google for a simple calc and compare it to [result]30&25:5,2d50,0,30&2d50[/result] to compare whether or not it hits. Though yeah, other than the mod thing, that's exactly what I had in my mind.

(well in my mind I wanted to go 2d100 and half it; it differs from 2d50 because you can't roll a 1 on 2d50, but can on (2d100)/2. But the former's a lot more simple)
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Onime No Ryu
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Dreaming Sun
September 7, 2013, 7:37 pm
I was thinking of sorta removing the mod system for dex because, while not particularly complicated, it does make the formulae a bit more unwieldy. In addition, it slowly approaches the auto-dodge/hit status again as dexterity increases.

I didn't expect to be able to do the full code here, but it's not particularly hard to solve. Everyone here can just use Google for a simple calc and compare it to [result]30&25:5,2d50,0,30&2d50[/result] to compare whether or not it hits. Though yeah, other than the mod thing, that's exactly what I had in my mind.

(well in my mind I wanted to go 2d100 and half it; it differs from 2d50 because you can't roll a 1 on 2d50, but can on (2d100)/2. But the former's a lot more simple)
I think if it's only slowly approaching the auto-factor, that might be okay. We probably won't be able to have a perfectly perfect system with only four stats, basic math, and a few dice rolls, but the key here is to have something that works for as long as an RP will last--which will probably be, under this system, around 20 or 30 levels I think, at least to start with--and is simple enough that everybody can use it with no problem. If the system still has issues further on, they may not even matter cause I doubt we'll reach level 99 that fast.

So with this, do you think we've fixed Dexterity enough to move on to other problems?
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Dreaming Sun
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Looks fine to me. My only problem is that I don't know how to throw in a double RNG system into my super average damage output equation so I wouldn't be able to calculate an "optimum build", but that's probably for the better. Did you have any particular concerns in mind?
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DVD Player
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Okay, here's some input in terms of story and characterization and all those delicious feces.

Adding in the dice and mathematics helps balance the gameplay aspect of a roleplay; the battles and the leveling and the whosits and the whatsits. It helps keep things polished and flow nicely with minimal problems. But, in terms of story and interaction it does add a certain... detachment in the battles. On the complete opposite end of the spectrum; battles are totally cinematic and focus on creating a pretty fight and have the characters interact (this system most definitely has its faults, though). With the dice-roll addition and the math, it makes a more cinematic fight difficult and turns it into something more... video-gamey. I'm not saying these aren't fun, but it makes mid-battle interaction a little more... ham-fisted. It's like if you played a turn-based RPG except that in a regular battle there's a lot of dialogue and banter. It just doesn't work between the hard-boiled mechanics and the actual fight.

So here's some feedback on the story-flow end of things: because of the nature of the dice-rolls, it makes a more in-depth battle between two very competent RPers difficult (RPers who aren't afraid to puppet reasonably and take a few hits) as it requires a whole post for a single attack, rather than a post for several maneuvers or basic NPC battles that don't matter. For instance; if I entered an encounter with a Soulless in a very game-focused RP, I would have to do several posts back and forth for a single battle rather than a single post for the whole battle. Not to mention that it makes things a little more complicated when multiple enemies are attacking one player. It elongates any encounter and makes more cinematic moves difficult.

So here's something to consider: Dice-roll battles have to involve multiple posts, even if one person is involved. If there were a way to make this system more efficient somehow, it would work great for the literary flow of the battles.
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Onime No Ryu
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Dreaming Sun
September 7, 2013, 7:59 pm
Looks fine to me. My only problem is that I don't know how to throw in a double RNG system into my super average damage output equation so I wouldn't be able to calculate an "optimum build", but that's probably for the better. Did you have any particular concerns in mind?
Well, some questions have come up over the time we've spent discussing this the past few days.

With the current system, what is currently the best COUNTER to the Optimum build?

How do the other stats--Strength, Intelligence, and Vitality--fare over time compared to Dexterity? Since we've solved the Dex problem, have any of the other stats become overpowered, underpowered, or useless?

If weapons and spells use scaling dice as they upgrade--say, going from 1d4 to 1d6--but Armors only use absolute Physical Defense and Magical Defense values, does that present a problem?

Do you have any suggestions for an Experience system, or do you think Level Ups should just be awarded after players accomplish a task--like say, completing a quest, defeating a boss, etc.?

Also, do you think you can address the issues Niroth brought up?
Edited by Onime No Ryu, September 7, 2013, 8:12 pm.
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Dreaming Sun
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Quote:
 
With the current system, what is currently the best COUNTER to the Optimum build?
This makes no sense and slowly turns to my own mathematical insanity
So I hit a problem halfway through this calc, and that's with armour.

The damage of a hit is the attacker's roll (atm, between 1 and 4) plus his mod (1 or 2; for my optimum it's 1), less the armour (3 max), and their mod (0 to 2). My formula is stupid and gives negative values for when an armour is blocked so well, which is the vast majority of the time. Note that any setup with 3 armour, and a 2 mod, would block all possible magical attacks from a +1 mod enemy. And on the physical side, the defender could put in an early +2 mod, and with the +1 armour, block 75% of the attacks there too. He won't be able to do anything since they have no dex, but still.

Basically the overpoweredness to armour is that it is the "defensive" version of weapons. Defense mods are the defensive version of strength mods and cancel out, which make sense, and armour is the defensive version of weapons, which cancel each other out and are bad, because that means the average damage output tends towards zero, or pretty much, invincible. Easy fix though. Nerf armour amounts, buff weapon rolls, or pick a minumum damage.

Quote:
 
How do the other stats--Strength, Intelligence, and Vitality--fare over time compared to Dexterity? Since we've solved the Dex problem, have any of the other stats become overpowered, underpowered, or useless?

For the same reason as above, the "minor" offensive and defensive stat, as I've called it in my head (Int if you're a warrior, Str if you're a mage) is useless. You are unlikely to be attacking from it, and if you are, lv1 armour has the effect of 15 points in the stat. Vit and the "major" stat are pretty much the same; the ideal build is to put your major slightly above your Vit, to block attacks from that side.

Quote:
 
If weapons and spells use scaling dice as they upgrade--say, going from 1d4 to 1d6--but Armors only use absolute Physical Defense and Magical Defense values, does that present a problem?
Armour's a problem, as said above, if the value is so high. I like static effects so you don't have "critical critical hits" where armour rolls low and str rolls high, followed by "invincible" blows where armour rolls high and str rolls low.

Quote:
 
Do you have any suggestions for an Experience system, or do you think Level Ups should just be awarded after players accomplish a task--like say, completing a quest, defeating a boss, etc.?
I'm all for activity-based levels.

Quote:
 
Adding in the dice and mathematics helps balance the gameplay aspect of a roleplay; the battles and the leveling and the whosits and the whatsits. It helps keep things polished and flow nicely with minimal problems. But, in terms of story and interaction it does add a certain... detachment in the battles. On the complete opposite end of the spectrum; battles are totally cinematic and focus on creating a pretty fight and have the characters interact (this system most definitely has its faults, though). With the dice-roll addition and the math, it makes a more cinematic fight difficult and turns it into something more... video-gamey. I'm not saying these aren't fun, but it makes mid-battle interaction a little more... ham-fisted. It's like if you played a turn-based RPG except that in a regular battle there's a lot of dialogue and banter. It just doesn't work between the hard-boiled mechanics and the actual fight.

So here's some feedback on the story-flow end of things: because of the nature of the dice-rolls, it makes a more in-depth battle between two very competent RPers difficult (RPers who aren't afraid to puppet reasonably and take a few hits) as it requires a whole post for a single attack, rather than a post for several maneuvers or basic NPC battles that don't matter. For instance; if I entered an encounter with a Soulless in a very game-focused RP, I would have to do several posts back and forth for a single battle rather than a single post for the whole battle. Not to mention that it makes things a little more complicated when multiple enemies are attacking one player. It elongates any encounter and makes more cinematic moves difficult.

Agree completely. Like I've said a couple of times, I don't like dice-roll systems. They're easy to game and optimise (as I, a 17 year old high school student not doing the hardest math course show... Imagine what any math major could do with it?), and if you want to make it balanced enough where many builds become optimal, the fomulae overcomplicate themselves and it becomes unwieldy to use.

The best way to use a dice roll system I feel, however, is to not force it, simply. In other words, a dice system does not become necessary in an RP in which it's used. If I want to do a highly cinematic battle with someone where my strong character is defeated by a weak character for the development of these characters, I should be able to do that without having to pull punches in terms of attacks or dodges. Similarly, you don't want a fight with a Slime to take ten posts to do because they keep dodging. As Niroth says, it makes a story appear too much like a videogame, which could work for some people, but not all. So make it only necessary on key fights, while generic encounters and storyline battles can be done traditionally (with some sort of, "Ormond lost 3 vitality from this battle" note).

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Keith
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yeah idk what you want me to post but if you want to prevent exploitation the best idea is to use a bunch of really specific stats that each do one thing and one thing only as opposed to vague stats that do two or more things because the more things a stat does it becomes easier to break and tc to minmax as ds has shown
MAP OF HYRULE

BESTIARY

WORLD NOTES
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Onime No Ryu
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Dreaming Sun
September 8, 2013, 6:35 pm
Quote:
 
With the current system, what is currently the best COUNTER to the Optimum build?
This makes no sense and slowly turns to my own mathematical insanity
So I hit a problem halfway through this calc, and that's with armour.

The damage of a hit is the attacker's roll (atm, between 1 and 4) plus his mod (1 or 2; for my optimum it's 1), less the armour (3 max), and their mod (0 to 2). My formula is stupid and gives negative values for when an armour is blocked so well, which is the vast majority of the time. Note that any setup with 3 armour, and a 2 mod, would block all possible magical attacks from a +1 mod enemy. And on the physical side, the defender could put in an early +2 mod, and with the +1 armour, block 75% of the attacks there too. He won't be able to do anything since they have no dex, but still.

Basically the overpoweredness to armour is that it is the "defensive" version of weapons. Defense mods are the defensive version of strength mods and cancel out, which make sense, and armour is the defensive version of weapons, which cancel each other out and are bad, because that means the average damage output tends towards zero, or pretty much, invincible. Easy fix though. Nerf armour amounts, buff weapon rolls, or pick a minumum damage.

Quote:
 
How do the other stats--Strength, Intelligence, and Vitality--fare over time compared to Dexterity? Since we've solved the Dex problem, have any of the other stats become overpowered, underpowered, or useless?

For the same reason as above, the "minor" offensive and defensive stat, as I've called it in my head (Int if you're a warrior, Str if you're a mage) is useless. You are unlikely to be attacking from it, and if you are, lv1 armour has the effect of 15 points in the stat. Vit and the "major" stat are pretty much the same; the ideal build is to put your major slightly above your Vit, to block attacks from that side.

Quote:
 
If weapons and spells use scaling dice as they upgrade--say, going from 1d4 to 1d6--but Armors only use absolute Physical Defense and Magical Defense values, does that present a problem?
Armour's a problem, as said above, if the value is so high. I like static effects so you don't have "critical critical hits" where armour rolls low and str rolls high, followed by "invincible" blows where armour rolls high and str rolls low.

Quote:
 
Do you have any suggestions for an Experience system, or do you think Level Ups should just be awarded after players accomplish a task--like say, completing a quest, defeating a boss, etc.?
I'm all for activity-based levels.

Quote:
 
Adding in the dice and mathematics helps balance the gameplay aspect of a roleplay; the battles and the leveling and the whosits and the whatsits. It helps keep things polished and flow nicely with minimal problems. But, in terms of story and interaction it does add a certain... detachment in the battles. On the complete opposite end of the spectrum; battles are totally cinematic and focus on creating a pretty fight and have the characters interact (this system most definitely has its faults, though). With the dice-roll addition and the math, it makes a more cinematic fight difficult and turns it into something more... video-gamey. I'm not saying these aren't fun, but it makes mid-battle interaction a little more... ham-fisted. It's like if you played a turn-based RPG except that in a regular battle there's a lot of dialogue and banter. It just doesn't work between the hard-boiled mechanics and the actual fight.

So here's some feedback on the story-flow end of things: because of the nature of the dice-rolls, it makes a more in-depth battle between two very competent RPers difficult (RPers who aren't afraid to puppet reasonably and take a few hits) as it requires a whole post for a single attack, rather than a post for several maneuvers or basic NPC battles that don't matter. For instance; if I entered an encounter with a Soulless in a very game-focused RP, I would have to do several posts back and forth for a single battle rather than a single post for the whole battle. Not to mention that it makes things a little more complicated when multiple enemies are attacking one player. It elongates any encounter and makes more cinematic moves difficult.

Agree completely. Like I've said a couple of times, I don't like dice-roll systems. They're easy to game and optimise (as I, a 17 year old high school student not doing the hardest math course show... Imagine what any math major could do with it?), and if you want to make it balanced enough where many builds become optimal, the fomulae overcomplicate themselves and it becomes unwieldy to use.

The best way to use a dice roll system I feel, however, is to not force it, simply. In other words, a dice system does not become necessary in an RP in which it's used. If I want to do a highly cinematic battle with someone where my strong character is defeated by a weak character for the development of these characters, I should be able to do that without having to pull punches in terms of attacks or dodges. Similarly, you don't want a fight with a Slime to take ten posts to do because they keep dodging. As Niroth says, it makes a story appear too much like a videogame, which could work for some people, but not all. So make it only necessary on key fights, while generic encounters and storyline battles can be done traditionally (with some sort of, "Ormond lost 3 vitality from this battle" note).

So Armor is protecting too much and weapons aren't doing enough damage. Got it. Activity based levels, and agreement on the story aspect becoming an issue.

And to address Burnt's concern, I do have plans to add a few more stats to the mix now that I know a little bit more about how the system works out thanks to DS and the Beta Topic. I'm going to add Stamina and Mana so that physical/magical abilities can't be used over and over again, and I'm thinking of adding Defense and Resistance stats to replace or work with Armor Values, which will be adjusted, against Weapon values which will also be adjusted.

Now that we've seen a little of what this system is like, I'd like to ask something of everyone who has been interested in this topic:

Please scan this topic and the Beta Topic and take in what has been done/said so far, and think about what YOU want out of an RP. When you have done that, please answer the secondary poll I am about to append to the topic on Page 1. Thank you all for your feedback; you have all been a great help to the creative process.
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Onime No Ryu
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So, with 8 votes in the poll for Phase 2, it looks like most people are still in favor of the system, and a few folks want to see some more complexity added in. Now, I wanted to add some new stats, but I'm going to try and keep things from getting crazy complex. Here's my proposal for the stats now:

Main Stats:
Vitality - Your health points. The Modifier Points of this stat will go towards saving rolls that effect Status and Death.
Strength - Physical strength. The Modifier points of this stat will go towards the power of attacks and defense against physical attacks.
Intelligence - Mental strength. The Modifier points of this stat will go towards the power of magic attacks and defense against magic.
Dexterity - Speed and agility. The Modifier points of this stat are used to determine whether or not you dodge an attack.

Fuel Stats:
Stamina and Mana - These stats won't have any Modifiers. Instead they will be simple point pools that are used as a tradeoff for physical and magical abilities. Now, for my upcoming RP, I already have a very long list of abilities and what they should cost, but custom abilities could still be worked out.

Armor Stats:
Defense and Resistance - These stats won't have any modifiers either, but will be used statically to determine, in conjunction with your strength or intelligence modifiers, how much damage you take from either physical or magical attacks. Points in these stats will be granted by equipment.

In addition, the following change will be made to the formula:

HOW TO DODGE
Divide the Attacker's Dex by the Defender's Dex, multiply it by 50. Then roll 2d50. If the roll is less than or equal to the calculated value, there is a hit.

So what do you guys think? In reality it's not that big a change from before--the main thing that'll change is that I'll be nerfing equipment values a bit because, as DS pointed out, armor right now is a little overpowered, and that the way Dexterity determines a dodge has completely changed, but the formula still isn't that complicated.

Questions, comments, concerns, etc are all appreciated and encouraged!
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NTNP
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Could you go through the Dodge with an example with stats (ergo modifiers) to see how this version scales? I am thinking comparing the chances to hit/dodge with 1 DEX, 5 DEX, 15 DEX, 30 DEX and 50 DEX (with corresponding modifiers) would probably let us see how likely we are to hit.
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Dreaming Sun
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To about the units place, with the result being the hit rate, the first number being the attacker and the second being the defender:

1v5 = 2%
5v1 = 100%
5v15 = 6%
15v5 = 100%
15v30 = 13%
30v15 = 100%
30v50 = 18%
50v30 = 94%

Basically if your dex is double or half theirs, one of you are going to have screwed hit rates... which I probably should've thought more oh well. The numbers rapidly change as you approach equality:

30v40 = 29%
40v30 = 77%

But basically the point is that there's always a reason to put in points to dex now. But come to think of it, there may be too much reason to do so...
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NTNP
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See that is what I am thinking about too. Using just a 10 point buy system where someone invests 10 points into DEX from the start and adds the maximum amount of DEX per level up, how quickly would that unit become downright untouchable against standard enemies? Logically the 'best' stat distribution for something that lopsided would be max DEX with lowered defensive stats if (for the sake of argument) that 10 DEX against an opponent with 3 DEX would only have a true chance of hitting of around... what 20% or less at most? I think DEX is just too strong right now.

But that's assuming that the character in question rarely face other "max DEX" enemies (which would demolish a character with average or below average DEX). Realistically this system has a major issue with DEX being too strong. Perhaps we could change the system around a little to increase the innate accuracy of attacks to make dodge tanking a little less reliable. Of course we could all run dodging ninja fighters too I guess, that might be interesting as well where everyone can run headlong into gunfire and basically blink back and forth at super speed avoiding all damage too.

Hell, I take that earlier point back, if we change the planned use for this system and turn it into something anime themed where blinking at superspeed and localized teleportation is legal and normal, I so vote we use this system as is. I think everyone might enjoy that against the mundane folks with their pitiful, average DEX scores.
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Onime No Ryu
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I actually think that Dex isn't too strong--it's that the other stats may be too weak. Right now, as DS said, if you have double or more of the other person's dex, you pretty much get to autohit, while a person with half their opponent's dex is kind of screwed. But think about it--if someone else is twice as fast as you, you probably aren't gonna be able to hit them very often and they can blitz you before you know it.

What I think we need to do is balance it in accordance with the other stats. If a character with 30 dex has only a 29% chance to hit a character with 40 points in Dex, then that 30 Dex character needs to be capable of delivering a hit that can score heavy damage, so that while the 40 can hit him several times, it only takes one or two of the 30's hits to take the 40's Vitality down to zero.

It's like sparring in karate--the faster guy might get the points, but in a real fight you can take one of his wimpy love taps and return a gutbuster that'll turn his ribs into so much powdered calcium.

So how can we make Strength and Intelligence--the damage dealing stats--stronger in order to deal with Dex?
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NTNP
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Ninja dodging aside, I think the real question is what all do you want INT and STR to really do? If it is just a straight (increase the damage formula) we aren't really making things better, just decreasing the value of the defensive stats. Alternatively if you increase both then you are actually doing NOTHING because the value remains the same. Realistically a lot of has to do with about how many hits do you intend for each PC to be able to take? In some RPs, that number is relatively low around 3-4HKO. In others it is somewhere around 20HKO. Where do you want your numbers to fall?

Secondly, have you considered tying your offensive stats to something else? I personally like the idea of having the offensive stats tie into the cost of abilities and spells. What if your "stat" is equal to a reduction of the spell's MP cost or the ability's Stamina cost? A formula like stat x 2 = % reduction might work. Something like 10 STR reduces the cost for a power strike from 10 Stamina down to 8 stamina for example. By implementing a bonus like that to the system it might make it harder to justify having a single super high stat or choosing dump stats.
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Onime No Ryu
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That's a good idea.

I've also been thinking about maybe splitting part of Dexterity into a new stat, Agility, and have one of them determine the accuracy of attacks and the other determine the evasion rate of the player. One player rolls for accuracy, another rolls for evasion, and whoever has the highest value after adding in their Modifier points wins out.
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NTNP
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I wouldn't really split the stats. If you are going for making the total number of stats small, you probably should stick to that. Although one option for making DEX less powerful would be to allow STR and INT to have an influence on it. Maybe something like dodge and hit are determined by: DEX 75% and STR/INT 25% along with the other abilities associated with STR and INT? Also you could have DEX tie into another effect like environmental checks involving agility, climbing, stealth etc if you chose to go that route.
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Keith
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Onime No Ryu
September 12, 2013, 2:10 pm
That's a good idea.

I've also been thinking about maybe splitting part of Dexterity into a new stat, Agility, and have one of them determine the accuracy of attacks and the other determine the evasion rate of the player. One player rolls for accuracy, another rolls for evasion, and whoever has the highest value after adding in their Modifier points wins out.
yes do this

the more specific a single stat is the less convoluted calculations have to be for the sake of balance
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Systematic made by Phaede of the SZ..