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A Dice Based Roleplay; Would you be willing to use this system?
Topic Started: September 1, 2013, 4:23 pm (1,933 Views)
Keith
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GUYS I ROLLED A 69 ON A 1D10 PLEASE HELP ME

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Keith
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OH GOSH NOW IT ROLLED ANAL SEX SOMEONE PLEASE MY SON IS WATCHING THIS

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Edited by Keith, September 2, 2013, 6:32 pm.
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Onime No Ryu
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September 2, 2013, 6:24 pm
So admins can still get into their own posts and everyone else's posts just like usual. Maybe you could make it where if someone screwed up too badly on their post (like you know, didn't notice someone else had posted and done something that devalidated their post) that he or she could send it to the admin of that topic as a PM and get it edited in? Or for that matter just delete the post and go over it again?
Considering that admins aren't around all that often, I think it'd be easier to just let them make a second post saying "Here's the piece that I missed."

Also, in response to Burnt, I can't figure out how you did that so I think all I can do is ask you to...not to do it? :/

guis i'm trying to make gud gaim y u gotta break mah system
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Keith
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Keith
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Onime No Ryu
September 2, 2013, 6:32 pm
NTNP
September 2, 2013, 6:24 pm
So admins can still get into their own posts and everyone else's posts just like usual. Maybe you could make it where if someone screwed up too badly on their post (like you know, didn't notice someone else had posted and done something that devalidated their post) that he or she could send it to the admin of that topic as a PM and get it edited in? Or for that matter just delete the post and go over it again?
Considering that admins aren't around all that often, I think it'd be easier to just let them make a second post saying "Here's the piece that I missed."

Also, in response to Burnt, I can't figure out how you did that so I think all I can do is ask you to...not to do it? :/

guis i'm trying to make gud gaim y u gotta break mah system
dont worry the secret is safe with me

and anyone who bribes me sufficiently

but im not a cheap hooker im an expensive hooker so fear not

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Keith
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Edited by Keith, September 2, 2013, 6:56 pm.
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DVD Player
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My two cents:

I quite enjoy the stat system, as it gives players and idea of what they can or cannot dodge, who's stronger than who, etc. etc. It makes god-modding harder to get away with by a lot because you can clearly see what a character is better at than the other. However, there are things that can be done to further remove the possibility of god-modding, and that involves giving a better idea of how hard a certain character's attack is to dodge or parry; but it really boils down to the admin explaining how these stats compare to each other in a battle and the RPers paying attention to these stats.

With that said, I'm still kinda skeptical about keeping track of HP, MP, and other dice-roll stuff. Granted, I RP for the story and character interaction where battles take a seat behind that. I don't so much RP for the game-aspect, which is focused on with the inclusion of those mechanics. I dunno; I don't really want to go into an RP with a great idea for a character's personal plot-line and have that all thrown out the window because I screwed over in a fight or something. Not that I'm trying to justify god-modding or miracle-dodges; I'm just saying it's a little easier to have a character not-die from an NPC encounter or something when HP isn't a physical number, as in being near-death or something. "Pokemon don't die, they faint!" (except pikachus). But this thinking is all derived from wanting to RP for the story/character aspects, and really this all boils down to personal opinion. My only other issue is that it complicates things in an RP; so if a way to simplify the system and make it accessible is made, that would be fantastic.

That being said, I do have my issues with the system, but if it's simple and easy to access (and doesn't involve textbooks of character creation or ways to explain how all the modifiers and stats work) then it's probably being done right and I'd join that RP anyways.
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Onime No Ryu
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September 3, 2013, 9:47 am
My two cents:

I quite enjoy the stat system, as it gives players and idea of what they can or cannot dodge, who's stronger than who, etc. etc. It makes god-modding harder to get away with by a lot because you can clearly see what a character is better at than the other. However, there are things that can be done to further remove the possibility of god-modding, and that involves giving a better idea of how hard a certain character's attack is to dodge or parry; but it really boils down to the admin explaining how these stats compare to each other in a battle and the RPers paying attention to these stats.

With that said, I'm still kinda skeptical about keeping track of HP, MP, and other dice-roll stuff. Granted, I RP for the story and character interaction where battles take a seat behind that. I don't so much RP for the game-aspect, which is focused on with the inclusion of those mechanics. I dunno; I don't really want to go into an RP with a great idea for a character's personal plot-line and have that all thrown out the window because I screwed over in a fight or something. Not that I'm trying to justify god-modding or miracle-dodges; I'm just saying it's a little easier to have a character not-die from an NPC encounter or something when HP isn't a physical number, as in being near-death or something. "Pokemon don't die, they faint!" (except pikachus). But this thinking is all derived from wanting to RP for the story/character aspects, and really this all boils down to personal opinion. My only other issue is that it complicates things in an RP; so if a way to simplify the system and make it accessible is made, that would be fantastic.

That being said, I do have my issues with the system, but if it's simple and easy to access (and doesn't involve textbooks of character creation or ways to explain how all the modifiers and stats work) then it's probably being done right and I'd join that RP anyways.
The idea of how hard a character's attack is to dodge or block is represented by their strength modifier and the attack dice of their weapon/spell. The higher those numbers go, the higher you'll need to get your armor and dexterity rolls to avoid or block them, thus making it hard because there are more low numbers than high numbers when you reach a certain point.

Keeping track of things may be difficult at first, but I believe that if we do a few beta tests and figure out the most efficient way to do things, it'll be more than feasible. Also, I don't plan to have characters die immediately when they reach zero Vitality. Reaching zero Vitality will mean that your character is knocked unconscious, but not dead. To kill a character, you'll need to reduce them to a negative number--possibly -10, like in DnD, or maybe even a negative of their Vitality score--and have them STAY like that without being healed. There will be Reviving and Healing spells as well, which might be difficult to use in the case of the Revive spell, but will be able to bring back a dead character either temporarily or permanently.

Making it simple and easy to access is definitely a goal, and your feedback is appreciated. I hope you'll participate in upcoming tests of the system and the RPs that we choose to use it in.
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DVD Player
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Mdl. No. 00X "Burrito"
Okay, that's good to hear.
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Primera Espada Yggdra
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Now I've read through the comments and I will say that through past experience, a dice system makes things more fair, but it can also a double edged sword. In battle, stats make a difference. However, as stated in previous posts, those that are lucky with their rolls can overwhelm other players, especially those with a similar number of stat points. But that's all a part of the dice system. Things like these happen.

As for trying to edit posts that have a dice roll, I don't think admins can edit those posts as well. As stated before, it prevents cheatings. Of course, if someone made a mistake in their post unrelated to the dice app, it will prove to be a little problamatic. Double posting is probably the only solution.

Furthermore, I will admit the dice system can be a bit of a handful at first, therefore, I suggest that practice/beta tests should take place so not only can the system be tested, but players can try to get used to it.

But at the end of the day, it all comes down to preference.
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Onime No Ryu
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Thanks for all the feedback, guys! I'd like to get some more votes, but considering I've bugged everyone on the site this may be it for now.

Are there any other questions I need to answer? What kind of situations would you guys like to see come up in a beta test of this system other than simple fights?
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NTNP
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Offer up a reward (a bonus stat, better starting magic etc) to the person that can break your character creation system the hardest. People like myself and Kaze will be front runners but you'd be amazed at some of the impressive "over powered" builds you can create at level 1 and (for a further beta test) around level 5-10. It's always nice seeing someone outsmart the GM and create an unkillable wall of death early on (kaze) when we are in the beta test... but the opposite isn't true when we have already started the narrative.
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Onime No Ryu
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The Beta Test is now up in RP Ideas under the title Dream In Essence.

There will be a reward for whoever can "break" the system the hardest in terms of STAT POINT MANIPULATION. We already know about the dice roll screwiness so please don't cheat the dice rolls during the beta test. I haven't decided what the reward is but it will probably be something along the lines of having an extra level, spell, or weapon at the start of my next RP.
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Dreaming Sun
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I don't even know


tl;dr, some combination of stats and items that allow you to hit 7/7/1/8 or 7/1/7/8 is the best starting build on average.
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Onime No Ryu
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That in depth analysis is really great, DS! I'm bad at math so I don't understand all of it, but you pointed out two good starting points--the optimal build for early game, and the fact that at later levels every attack will become an auto-hit. Now, I have a few questions:

Can you explain some of your points without the math aspect?

If players gain 3 stat points at every level up, can you determine how long it will take them at minimum to become auto-hitters?

Can you better explain how/in what ways the optimum build IS optimum?

Can you point out the WORST build as well as the best?

If you haven't already, can you participate in the Beta Test?
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Dreaming Sun
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... I was really sleep addled when I did that so basically with less math:

There are three factors that help you do more damage. They are:

a) Hit Rate. If you hit twice as often, you do twice as much damage.
b) Damage per hit. If each hit does twice as much damage, you'll do twice as much damage.
c) Turns survived. If you survive twice as much damage, you'll do twice as much damage.

So basically, all I did was create equations for all three (which you provided; I just put them into symbols so... I find it easier to handle. Also there are mathematical/physical reasons why I had to pick "turns survived" instead of vitality so yeah), multiply all three together, and that should be your total average damage output. I then checked if the equation was correct by using characters with identical stats and equipment on one another; as you'd expect, two identical characters would fall, on average, at the exact same time so the formulae follow that check. And then I kept on substituting in stat allocations until one could do "maximum" damage to a 5/5/5/5 (Vit/Str/Int/Dex) character. (Sidenote: On the playtest thread which I was using, that's the order of the stats. In this thread, however, the order is Str/Int/Vit/Dex; at least one of them should be changed). So on average the character with the above setup should almost kill the 4th 5/5/5/5 character before dying.

If a character evenly distributes stats, autohotting would occur at 25/25/25/25. So ignoring weapon changes, which should have a noticeable effect, it would take 80/3 or basically when you're level 28. After that point, if the attacker wants a 5% chance to dodge, they need to increase their dex to 30. The attacker, however, can nullify this by increasing their dex to erm... 26. At that point, it is incredibly inefficient to further throw some stats into Dex. My proposal is to throw in a scaling factor; so the possible dice roll changes as a function of your dex, starting lower and ending higher so that dodge isn't OP early, and is still noticeable at the end.

Basically, this build is optimum because, again, doubling health and your damage stat would double your total damage. You can simply multiply it together; basically, you keep all the stats that are "important" close together so that you can have a huge square. So say, 7*7*7 is bigger than 1*1*19. It relies on the multiplicity on the stats.

The worst build is any build with 1 total dex. If anyone has 5 or more dex, they will never hit.

Possibly.

Amendment to my previous post
tl;dr loose ends. 7/7/1/8 is still ideal.
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Onime No Ryu
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._.

Either I can't brain today or I'm just dumb because a lot of that is still flying over my head. But what I basically got is that Dex is going to be the game breaker stat here, and that at higher levels, a person who has higher dex still can't dodge because 1 point of dex makes more of a difference to "accuracy" than it does to "evasion."

There are a few weapon and armor stats in the beta test topic if you'd like to include those and see if there are any changes, DS.

Do you have any proposals as to how we could fix the system so that it's more fair, or at least fix the Dexterity problem?
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Dreaming Sun
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I used the armour/weapons in the topic for the calcs. I'm just not sure what the weapons and armour at say, level 10 or level 30 would be, so I can't forecast that far. For the dex fix:

Quote:
 
My proposal is to throw in a scaling factor; so the possible dice roll changes as a function of your dex, starting lower and ending higher so that dodge isn't OP early, and is still noticeable at the end.


I'm not sure at exact numbers, but say that every 10 dex points you can roll another dice. The roll starts lower than 20 and keeps going higher. I'm unsure what you want the "average" hit to be, but if you tell me I should be able to fix up a formula for you.
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Onime No Ryu
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Well, right now the roll is 1d20+Modifier.

If we use that suggestion and say that every 10 dex points you can roll an extra 1d4, where does that put us?
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Dreaming Sun
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It should be the same early game assuming you still roll the 1d20.

Lategame, let's say, when someone has 50 dex, to hit:

H(1) >= 0.2H(2) + (1-20) +5(1-4)
50 >= 10 + (1-20) + 5(1-4)
40 >= (1-40)
100 >= (1-100)

That's a... really lucky number I picked. But basically, what that's saying is that you've postponed the autohitting phase until everyone hits 50 dex. Still autohitting, but autohitting much later.

Basically, what I want to know is at what rate you want attacks to hit. If two people have identical stats, do you want them to hit 80% of the time? 50% of the time? Do you care about proportional differences (aka, double the dex?) or relative differences (15 more dex?) and with that difference, how much do you think hit rate should change?
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Onime No Ryu
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Dreaming Sun
September 6, 2013, 12:38 pm
It should be the same early game assuming you still roll the 1d20.

Lategame, let's say, when someone has 50 dex, to hit:

H(1) >= 0.2H(2) + (1-20) +5(1-4)
50 >= 10 + (1-20) + 5(1-4)
40 >= (1-40)
100 >= (1-100)

That's a... really lucky number I picked. But basically, what that's saying is that you've postponed the autohitting phase until everyone hits 50 dex. Still autohitting, but autohitting much later.

Basically, what I want to know is at what rate you want attacks to hit. If two people have identical stats, do you want them to hit 80% of the time? 50% of the time? Do you care about proportional differences (aka, double the dex?) or relative differences (15 more dex?) and with that difference, how much do you think hit rate should change?
Well, if it's just putting off the autohitting until later, it's kind of doing what all games naturally do, isn't it? I mean, if you grind to max level in pretty much any RPG, you're going to absolutely demolish most things unless it's one of those really hard RPGs with bonus bosses that take the piss out of everything. Maybe it's not so bad that autohits will at some point occur, but rather that the Dexterity stat is a little unbalanced right now and needs to be fixed?

Well, if you have two characters who have all 5s in every stat, I would imagine they'd both hit at about a 50% rate. Would I be right or wrong? Is that expectation of hit rate bad or good? How would it effect hit rates beyond that point?

I'm not even sure how to answer the rest of your questions because all this math is making my head hurt.
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Dreaming Sun
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Autohitting later on is fair enough. The problem is that it makes putting further points in Dex useless (or just abouts) beyond a certain threshold, and in a game where you can select your stats, having a "useless" option isn't always great.

For 5dex vs 5dex, to hit:

5 >= 1 + (1 to 20)
4 >= (1-20)
20 >= (1-100)

20% hit rate. Whether it's good or not depends on the RP/players.

As for the other questions, basically. Look at Fire Emblem damage calcs: Str - Def = Damage. That checks absolute differences. I can't think of an example on the top of my head, but you also have calcs that have proportional differences. So say, if your strength is double their defence, you might do two damage. If it's triple their defence, you might do three damage. For hit, which do you think is better?

Basically, which do you think should be more likely to dodge? A 15 dex character being attacked by someone with 5 dex, or a 330 dex character being attacked by someone with 300 dex?
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Onime No Ryu
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I've seen several games where, when building characters, there's a stipulation "don't put points into this beyond X value" because that stat stops being effective at that point. I'm thinking that this is probably bad, as it limits the "uniqueness" of character builds because at some inevitable point, everyone will end up having the same Dexterity score. If adding extra dice doesn't fix it, is there any way to fix it otherwise?

I think the 15 Dex character should dodge the 5 dex character more easily than the 330 character should dodge the 300 character, so what does that mean I need to do?
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Dreaming Sun
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So that means what you're mainly looking for is the relative differences between them; the formulae are a bit more complicated that way. Basically, though, to keep dodge relevant you reduce/remove the effects of the initial die (here, the 1d20) and increase the chances of the dex-based rolls. And here, the amount of rolls would be some function of Dex(Defender)/Dex(Attacker). For actual numbers, what do you think is a good hit rate for a 5dex vs a 5dex? 15dex vs 5dex, and the reverse? Should 15dex vs 5dex be the same as 150dex vs 50 dex?
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Onime No Ryu
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So how would reducing the 1d20 to a 1d10 effect things?

I think that 20% hit rate from earlier is probably okay, considering that starting out weak is the usual thing and that putting two people of equal ability against one another probably won't happen very often.

For 15 vs 5 dex, I think that the character with 15 should be three times more likely to land a hit and to dodge a hit, whatever that percentage would be (I'm assuming 60% but I'm not sure considering how the formulae might change things). And yeah, I think a 150 vs a 50 dex would have the same odds considering they're just going up by an equal factor of ten. Am I right or wrong? Would the opposite of what I've suggested be better, because if so I'd definitely use that.
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