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RP and Writing Discussion: Dark Themes and Characters
Topic Started: April 25, 2013, 6:38 am (578 Views)
Dreaming Sun
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I'm sure we've all had characters that are simply lighthearted idiots to tell a joke or twenty or have some overly dramatic fights. Others, of course, may have characters on the other end of the spectrum; "darker" characters that more seriously examine "darker" themes and, perhaps, how they relate to this real world we all live in. Most characters lie at some point between this spectrum. What I want to ask today, is at which point do most of your characters or RPs fit on this spectrum, and why?

First, though, we would have to define "darkness". A simple definition that I've seen around quite a bit is that a "dark" theme is a theme that is sad or otherwise negative, and a "dark" character is a character who harms others, or is, or was, greatly harmed. I however, don't feel that's a suitable definition, since, by that definition, a kid's story about a superhero stopping a supervillain from exploding the entire world would be considered a pretty "dark" storyline. After quite a while of thought, I believe the best definition for a concept to be "dark" would be that it has the invokes a powerful, long term, negative response in the reader. So, a villain who simply kills a character, I would not consider very dark. However, if said villain is described in a way that we can see his ideologies and methods for killing, and relate to it, the reader can be brought to disgust, and thus, the villain can be said to be quite "dark". Of course, if the author has the reader create sympathy in this villain, then the reader would feel confused and doubting themselves, and so, I would also call that "dark". Using an older character of mine as an example, I had a character Relean, whose father was a mercenary and got killed, and so, Rel turned psychotic and begins to hear voices in his head. A character talking himself is not necessarily dark, since you could say he's talking to some magic stone or something, or it's just a random quirk of his. And a character with real mental issues aren't necessarily dark either; check out some comedies and you'll see. However, I'd call Rel one of my darkest characters because he, I hope, invokes fear, and confusion, and disgust, while you learn more about his mind and what can be. This would be my definition, and feel free to argue.

But which one should be used?

They both have their advantages and disadvantages; neither is right. What I feel is that darker characters have much more of a long term impact on readers; they're what the reader remembers. One would be more likely to remember, and be impacted by, say, the journey and gradual moral devolution of a Sophia, then, say, John's rampage through a jungle just because he can. On the other hand, darker characters tend to give less immediate enjoyment exist for a reader, or a writer. You're more likely to remember John creating an explosion to sever the leopard's head from its body and throw it at the nearest burglar, then you are to remember the way Sophia reacted to an older friend appearing, compared to the same friend appearing several pages beforehand. Having dark characters and light characters both have their own. Darker themes are also much more difficult to do. If your character's best friend dies, and this is supposed to be a dark scene, but that's never happened to you or anyone you know, you're at a heavy risk of offending those that it did happen to, so being careful is absolutely necessary.

Most of my characters, I feel, lean on the darker end of the spectrum. I like my characters being realistic, with realistic thoughts and emotions, and so, shrugging off their village being destroyed or their parents killed is something I usually cannot stomach. Part of what interests me about RPing is viewing how different people and characters react to situations; in order to actually do this, I need to have the characters be accurately impacted by events, and I would need to show this to the reader. Thus, you'll find most of my characters have darker themes. Mostly, you'll see failed ambitions and falls from grace in my characters, along with pinches of death and mental illnesses. I have had rather lighthearted characters, but I've lost interest in them pretty easily, just because they always feel... the same?

So, what about everyone else? How dark do you actually write your characters? And why? Which types do you prefer reading, and why? What would you even define a "dark character" to be? Here's a chance to discuss it.
Edited by Dreaming Sun, April 25, 2013, 6:39 am.
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Onime No Ryu
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I'll be your Undertaker this evening
I tend to not like too much "darkness" in general because most people don't do it right. In my view, "darkness" comes more from absolute realism than it does from making a concentrated effort to be negative. Absolute realism reminds the reader of all the flaws of humanity, society, and the very world we live in, and I, especially in recent years, have always believed that our world is an absolutely shitastic place full of things and people that exist for the sole purpose of beating you down and taking all your dreams away from you. But when someone's trying to be as dark as possible, most times they just come across as emo and gory and grimdark just for the sake of it, without actually adding anything to the character, the story, or the narrative. There are, of course, exceptions to this, but I haven't seen that many of them. The darkest stories I've read, that made me the most depressed, were all stories heavily rooted in realism, or at least carrying those realistic themes and applying them to non-realistic things.

I also don't really like darkness because, like I said, the real world is full of it. If I wanted to be depressed I'd just go live life and wait for the next beat down that's always around the corner to make me question whether or not I want to put myself into a mental institution again. Stories are, to me, meant to entertain, teach, and communicate. The real world doesn't want to communicate with you, everyone's too busy with their own lives to worry about insignificant little me or you. The real world doesn't want to teach you, because there's nothing to teach. One of the most shocking things any person ever experiences in life is realizing that they're an adult now and they still don't know a damn thing about life. The real world certainly doesn't want to entertain you, because it's much more fun to watch you wallow in despair.

In stories, you can communicate thoughts and feelings and ideas by expressing them in concrete form as words. In stories, you can teach by sharing the experiences of the characters, so that even someone who will never know such an experience can relate to it. And in stories, you can entertain by letting the reader escape this shit-filled real world and go somewhere else where the sun shines a little brighter. So to me, making a story "dark" is not only pointless, it's cruel. If I wanted to read about someone who never wins, who suffers endlessly, I'd just go live my own life. I want to read about heroes overcoming the odds, about courageous individuals who can rise up against any challenge, about people who are happy and who can make other people happy. Because I'd like to believe, just for a little bit, until the next wave of problems rolls in and tries to drown me, that it's possible.

Thus, I don't usually make dark characters, not without giving them--as Riku calls it--a road to the dawn. The darkness is a challenge for them, a challenge to be overcome and defeated. Certainly, there's something to be said for "the dark backstory," as long as it's not so overly done and overly emo as to be annoying. It helps to establish relations to the reader, lets the reader further immerse themselves in the possibility that someone like them can overcome problems like these. And of course, the villain has to be "dark" in order to drive readers to hate them, and to teach that people who act like the villains do are bad people and need to be stopped. Can you imagine if all the bad people in the real world were rounded up and executed one by one in the most painful way possible to set an example to anyone else who might think of doing that? We might actually have a chance in the world then. But that can't ever happen, you see, at least not outside the pages of a book.

Even when I do write dark characters, they don't tend to be too dark because if there were, there'd be no hope for them, just like there's no hope for those of us here in the real world. I prefer reading characters who aren't that dark at all, most of the time. Every once in a while I change it up just for a change of pace, but most times, I'm perfectly happy with the eternally optimistic, never backs down, stupidly courageous shonen hero. Everyone loves to hate on shonen because it's so formulaic and predictable and the good guys always win. These people, in my opinion, haven't reached the point where they no longer have any shields from the real world. If they have, they'd realize that these little pinpricks of light--the idea that "good will always triumph" and "friends and family are important" and "hard work can overcome challenges" are the only thing keeping this world, and some people in it, from being swallowed by evil.

I would define a good "dark" character to be a character who has to overcome both inner and outer struggles. The inner struggles, however, have to be just as strong as the outer. Momentary doubt and fear don't count. Deep seated hatred--the kind of hatred that becomes the very point of existence, for instance, a hatred that turns your entire life's goal into something like revenge--and things that depend on the character themselves, such as guilt and self-loathing and hypocrisy, those are the kinds of inner struggles that, once overcome, will actually make the character better and wiser. If they're just emo little twats who never actually overcome their struggles because their struggles are isignificant or stupid to begin with, they are definitely not a good character.



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NTNP
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First, let me start by saying that I am using TvTropes as my reference for this post so any questions regarding the terminology presented in the "" lines is a way of me citing one of the articles on their site. With that being stated, lets begin.

I'll first say that you are making an assumption that a "dark" character is a lot of things. You are saying that a dark character exists on the "serious" side of the serious versus silliness scale, also you seem to also make a link to the "idealism versus cynicism" scale as well. This is even more present in Onime's response. With that being said, I define a dark character as "an individual whom causes the reader to explore a more primal, potentially negative, emotion directly or indirectly." As such, someone like batman is a "dark" character because he forces us to explore the ideas of death, rebirth, pain, suffering and fear. However, the same can be applied to other characters as well depending on the writer and the storyline without creating a "dark" character. For example, Superman is often considered a "light" character. However in the hands of the correct author, he can be used to explore dark themes as well without he himself becoming part of the darkness.

So I would add the addendum that a "dark" character possesses negative aspects, traits or personality that make them inherently incompatible with the current system being provided for characters within that setting. For example, a "dark" character in a middle ages setting could be anything from a murderous rapist to a man with a deep seated hatred for his current position in the world. But the main point is, that his opinion and that of the general population (and ideally the reader) causes a conflict.

As far as which I prefer, I tend to rely more heavily on darker characters. Some of my more famous characters often explored darker themes such as ambition, pride, personal glory, prejudice, self-doubt and intolerance. In some settings, they were villains but most of the time they were player characters whom I intended to think and belief differently than I do.
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Green
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I can't really say anything that hasn't been said already, but I think of a dark character as a character with something more closely resembling our own humanity. As humans we all have flaws and the world may not treat us right sometimes. A character with flaws, who is not always living a life full of rainbows and sunshine, is a character I would consider dark. As for my characters, well, I tend towards the darker side. The darkside is just more fun.
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NTNP
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Hmm, I wonder if it would be interesting listing our dark characters and analyzing them in a setting like this...
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Dreaming Sun
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I guess that recurring point of realism is another reason why I prefer using darker characters; most of my characters are inspired from what I see in real life, and it's very difficult to create a highly idealistic, lighthearted point of view of a character when you're basing their actions on real world expectations and criticisms.
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If I wanted to read about someone who never wins, who suffers endlessly, I'd just go live my own life.
I can't really agree; just because a character is dark, they don't necessarily always have to lose. A feeling of catharsis at the end of a storyline or character arc is always important when writing, and if the character undergoes loss after loss after loss, the reader won't receive that. I feel a good dark character does have their own wins and their own loses; however, the losses and wins have to be analysed, explicitly or implicitly, to show that the character can both gain and lose from each of them.

I feel in fact, that that's a risk in making a dark character that lighthearted characters don't. I think everyone's seen the sort of character that are dark for darkness's sake, emo and depressed about everything, murders throne in just for the sake of making a gritty, silent character, who never wins because real life is like that. People do win in real life, and dark characters have to win in some situations to make the reader maintain interest, I feel. I also feel that dark backstories in particular (though all backstories, in fact) absolutely must add something to the character. Having a backstory where murder exists for the sake of murder can be quite offensive, and it just... creates a whole lot of inconsistentency, especially with the more serious nature darker characters tend to have.

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With that being said, I define a dark character as "an individual whom causes the reader to explore a more primal, potentially negative, emotion directly or indirectly." As such, someone like batman is a "dark" character because he forces us to explore the ideas of death, rebirth, pain, suffering and fear. However, the same can be applied to other characters as well depending on the writer and the storyline without creating a "dark" character. For example, Superman is often considered a "light" character. However in the hands of the correct author, he can be used to explore dark themes as well without he himself becoming part of the darkness.
The paragraph where NTNP says everything I attempted to say so much better ;~;

However, I can't really agree with the idea of conflict with a general population. Say... Othello as an example. I'd call Othello a rather dark-ish play, elaborating upon the effects of jealousy, and manipulations, and analysing misplaced trust in its events. It creates a sense of disgust and awe for Iago's ability to manipulate, and also causes them to be disappointed with how easil others, and arguably, the audience, has been influenced into agreeing with his stance. However, there is no incompatibility in the situation. Most of the audience would be able to sympathise with both Iago and Othello, while both Iago and Othello act in many ways that a "general population" would. And yet, both Iago and Othello (particularly the former) come our as dark characters,

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A character with flaws, who is not always living a life full of rainbows and sunshine, is a character I would consider dark.
B-but what about a Mary Sue who's bad at math and fails her math test would she be dark? : D

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Hmm, I wonder if it would be interesting listing our dark characters and analyzing them in a setting like this...
Yesssss do it.
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I wouldn't consider that dark because Mary Sues don't have flaws generally.
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Winters
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Oh goodie, is it time for interpretation already?

Quite honestly, I have to say that I disagree with a lot of what you're all saying. I don't particularly consider a character who happens to have flaws "dark." That's what I call realistic. It would be "dark" under my definition if their flaws outweighed their positive aspects to the point that it begins to bend what I call realistic.

In essence, what I'm describing is what TvTropes would describe as the "sliding scale of idealism and cynicism." If you go too far to the idealistic side, you would get an unrealistic world which could possibly be described as borderline utopia, or what you might call a "Mary Sue." However, if you go too far down the cynicism side, you also arrive at an unrealistic world where seemingly all traces of ideals and virtues are gone: dystopia. The real world is neither of these extremes, but rather somewhere in the middle, and depending on our perspective we can see it trending towards one side of the scale or the other.

Additional, I fail to understand why things such as death and fear are inherently "dark." Particularly if I'm going by what I consider light and dark, they are both simply normal aspects of life.

Of course, my perspective on the whole topic might be warped. What I usually consider to be dark is perhaps a little more extreme than what others might feel.
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Dreaming Sun
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Green
April 26, 2013, 1:29 pm
I wouldn't consider that dark because Mary Sues don't have flaws generally.
Flaw could arguably be her bad at being math. But either way, I get what you're saying.

Winters
April 27, 2013, 12:26 am
Additional, I fail to understand why things such as death and fear are inherently "dark." Particularly if I'm going by what I consider light and dark, they are both simply normal aspects of life.
Just because it is a natural part of life, it doesn't mean it can't be inherently dark. Death tends to bring about grieving and a whole slew of negative emotions on the side. Good dark characters and settings, I'd say, remind the reader of this point of their lives, and question their actions and what I've done. "Have I don't the right thing? Is this character doing the right thing? I'm worried and scared and digusted". That would be what I feel a dark character should do.
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THE Man
We should try and merge all these definitions to create our universal definition. Not sure if it would work with a few definitions, but we should give it a crack.
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