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A Question of Arms
Topic Started: February 18, 2013, 9:54 am (1,839 Views)
Onime No Ryu
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I'll be your Undertaker this evening
Weapons and armor. The bread and butter of the player in the battle against evil. In the last topic, A Question of Stats, the majority of you guys voted to have weapons and armor take an effect on your stats. You also voted to use my stat system, a simplified, card game style point system that makes battles much less likely to erupt in the usual BS and arguing that they usually do.

The question now is, how do we make weapons and armor fit into that equation? Obviously, weapons and armor will offer bonuses, such as "Attack +1" and "Resist 1/2 Fire Damage" and things like that. But how do we go about OBTAINING, and then switching between, better sets of weaponry and armor?

Should weapons and armor be solely rewards from battle? Should there also be a shop system? A crafting system? How do we determine how much money weapons should be worth? Should there just be an overall tier system, such as "Rusty Weapon, Iron Weapon, Steel Weapon," or should there be individual weapons like "Iron Cutlass," "Steel Battleaxe," and things like that? How do we determine how much money, weapons, armor, or crafting materials enemies drop?

Should weapons fall into general classes, like "Greatsword," "Lance," and "Bow?" If so, how many classes should there be? Do we want to sacrifice player ability to make/use unique or different weapons for simplicity's sake and ease of use for this system, or should every player be able to custom create weapons somehow?

There are a lot of questions to answer this time, and some of them might be rather tough. Let's stick with it, guys, and try to find something we can all be happy with.
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Kazemitsu
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Assassin
Hm...I've been playing a lot of monster hunter and like the idea of a crafting system. I'm sure a lot of people will be like "but I don't want to keep track of all those items!" Well if you keep track of them you'll eventually build your 'ultimate weapon/armor'. Although having enemies drop bits and pieces of armor or a weapon would be realistic, like if you didn't destroy their shield you can use that, or a pauldron, etc. It'd make the group actually have to rag to their tag :p

The class system....don't need it. Lets say you trained all your life to use a broadsword. You can use a shortsword, broadsword, arming sword, and bastard sword. All single handed double edged straight blades. Although a bastard sword can be used with two hands if someone wanted, but it's normally single handed. The player should stick with that type of weapon, because they don't know how to use other weapons like a lance or a bow. Same goes for a lancer trying to use a sword, would probably cut his arm off or stab himself in the foot.

I wouldn't go with the weapon tier system though. A rusty weapon isn't exactly dull all the time, it just has rust on it. A good polish and cleaning and you got yourself the iron/steel weapon back. If metal is to far gone you throw it into a scrap heap, since you'd be better off using your hands than something that will fall apart without the help of your enemies.

Dunno if I missed anything, but that's my 3 cents :p
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NTNP
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Obtaining:
I feel like given the situation is rather bleak, that weapons should be relatively hard to acquire and thus make it where each weapon is generally unique. One thing with a setting like this is that maybe you might want to consider providing fewer weapons but making them inherently unique and with a bit of lore associated with them? Instead of making it where if you throw a rock that you'll hit a sword, make it where most of the swords are in the hands of the legion and "locked" onto them using some sort of enchantment or something. Instead have it where the few weapons, armors etc that aren't standard issue are- in fact- rather unique and powerful. Like say early on, we might learn about a grove where an ancient axe said to have cut down the first tree in the time long forgotten is enshrined. When we get there and arrive at the grove, we find a huge two handed axe with exquisite craftsmanship, 3 slots for spheres and a natural affinity (say +3 attack) against plants. Boom, a unique item has been born and vastly more interesting than the steel axe bought from a shop with +3 versus plants. Make them rare, make them tailored to the setting and make it where when we get the things that they are treated as treasures. Sorta like imagine if the only "weapons" in ToS were radiants. All the others were "mook only" because the first thing the evil emperor does is install a "Binding" sphere on his gear making anyone else who tries to use them become cursed and injured. So the few weapons that do exist are generally very important, rare pieces that we have to work to obtain. This will also allow for a great deal of customization as I'll get into below.

Classifying:
I feel like if you go with this "all weapons, armor etc are unique and one of a kind" thing that classifications cease to matter.

Function:
If you go with the rare but powerful weapons idea, I feel like one thing that should be included is the ability to craft it to your liking. Lets make a few hard and fast about these rare, unique weapons and armors. First they are masterworks, comparable to the best things that we can forge today either due to value, function or form. Secondly they are created from a similar substance as the Mystspheres themselves, thus making these works unable to be "cursed" by the evil emperor and requiring his mumbo jumbo to use. Which, by the way, as a genre savvy evil emperor making it where the common folk could only rebel with their cloths and pitchforks against a trained legion is a great idea. And lastly that all weapons and armors naturally possess at least 1 pre-existing 'customization' on them. Your purple, ominous spear inflicts poison strike. The golden gauntlets produce lightning when you punch. The Sea Walker's Boots let you stride across the water etc. And that all of these items can be further customized via a form of "crafting."

Personal Suggestion:
If you went with me this far, why not take it a step further? What if instead of having these rare weapons and armor reforged and crafted when we get drops instead the weapons and armor themselves change naturally? Say after so many fights, events etc against certain creatures, bosses etc that each weapon and armor had the option of "changing" to accommodation the user's style since they are made from Mystsphere crystal? After cutting through an entire highly armored legion for half a story line, the "axe that chopped down the first tree" might have the option of gaining one of the following effects at the player's choice: Manslayer (+2 against human foes), Piercing (+4 against armored enemies) or Duelist (+2 DEF against human foes). To show this change, the very "natury" looking axe might take on a more metallic look and the axe head itself might become larger and heavier to show that it now excels in cutting down men as well as plants.

To me this unique look at weapons and armor just sounds cool since we are using a stat system anyways. Plus the idea of an evil overlord that makes the vast majority of the weapons and armor in a setting locked into his soldiers only just seems like an awesome way to ensure that he remains in control.
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Onime No Ryu
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I'll be your Undertaker this evening
NTNP
February 18, 2013, 12:14 pm
Obtaining:
I feel like given the situation is rather bleak, that weapons should be relatively hard to acquire and thus make it where each weapon is generally unique. One thing with a setting like this is that maybe you might want to consider providing fewer weapons but making them inherently unique and with a bit of lore associated with them? Instead of making it where if you throw a rock that you'll hit a sword, make it where most of the swords are in the hands of the legion and "locked" onto them using some sort of enchantment or something. Instead have it where the few weapons, armors etc that aren't standard issue are- in fact- rather unique and powerful. Like say early on, we might learn about a grove where an ancient axe said to have cut down the first tree in the time long forgotten is enshrined. When we get there and arrive at the grove, we find a huge two handed axe with exquisite craftsmanship, 3 slots for spheres and a natural affinity (say +3 attack) against plants. Boom, a unique item has been born and vastly more interesting than the steel axe bought from a shop with +3 versus plants. Make them rare, make them tailored to the setting and make it where when we get the things that they are treated as treasures. Sorta like imagine if the only "weapons" in ToS were radiants. All the others were "mook only" because the first thing the evil emperor does is install a "Binding" sphere on his gear making anyone else who tries to use them become cursed and injured. So the few weapons that do exist are generally very important, rare pieces that we have to work to obtain. This will also allow for a great deal of customization as I'll get into below.

Classifying:
I feel like if you go with this "all weapons, armor etc are unique and one of a kind" thing that classifications cease to matter.

Function:
If you go with the rare but powerful weapons idea, I feel like one thing that should be included is the ability to craft it to your liking. Lets make a few hard and fast about these rare, unique weapons and armors. First they are masterworks, comparable to the best things that we can forge today either due to value, function or form. Secondly they are created from a similar substance as the Mystspheres themselves, thus making these works unable to be "cursed" by the evil emperor and requiring his mumbo jumbo to use. Which, by the way, as a genre savvy evil emperor making it where the common folk could only rebel with their cloths and pitchforks against a trained legion is a great idea. And lastly that all weapons and armors naturally possess at least 1 pre-existing 'customization' on them. Your purple, ominous spear inflicts poison strike. The golden gauntlets produce lightning when you punch. The Sea Walker's Boots let you stride across the water etc. And that all of these items can be further customized via a form of "crafting."

Personal Suggestion:
If you went with me this far, why not take it a step further? What if instead of having these rare weapons and armor reforged and crafted when we get drops instead the weapons and armor themselves change naturally? Say after so many fights, events etc against certain creatures, bosses etc that each weapon and armor had the option of "changing" to accommodation the user's style since they are made from Mystsphere crystal? After cutting through an entire highly armored legion for half a story line, the "axe that chopped down the first tree" might have the option of gaining one of the following effects at the player's choice: Manslayer (+2 against human foes), Piercing (+4 against armored enemies) or Duelist (+2 DEF against human foes). To show this change, the very "natury" looking axe might take on a more metallic look and the axe head itself might become larger and heavier to show that it now excels in cutting down men as well as plants.

To me this unique look at weapons and armor just sounds cool since we are using a stat system anyways. Plus the idea of an evil overlord that makes the vast majority of the weapons and armor in a setting locked into his soldiers only just seems like an awesome way to ensure that he remains in control.
I agree that the weapons should be hard to acquire because of the setting, but if every weapon is at the level where it can be considered a legendary item or something, there are two problems that immediately come to mind. One is that they'll be too powerful. Two is that they won't come often enough to really serve any point, because unless there are hundreds of legendary artifacts, it'll be a long time until most players can get them.

It seems to me that the point of having weapons that improve your stats is to not only provide a way of increasing your stats via some other manner than just the Myst and Mod Spheres, but also as a kind of reward that players can get for their work crafting, fighting, etc. And while legendary weapons are certainly a reward, they're pretty much a one time only reward. That won't necessarily give players the satisfaction that the stat arms seem to be designed for.

Think about it like a video game. You overcome a challenge, you get a reward. Since doing exp would be a shitload of trouble I haven't even offered that as an option--my idea was for Myst and Mod Spheres to be the reward. But if you don't get those rewards rather frequently, the reward loses its value. It's like "I played 100 hours and I only got this T-shirt." Sure, it might be a T-shirt of +5 Defense and 100% Fire Resistance, but it's just one thing compared to one hundred hours spent playing.
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NTNP
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Onime No Ryu
February 18, 2013, 1:09 pm
NTNP
February 18, 2013, 12:14 pm
Obtaining:
I feel like given the situation is rather bleak, that weapons should be relatively hard to acquire and thus make it where each weapon is generally unique. One thing with a setting like this is that maybe you might want to consider providing fewer weapons but making them inherently unique and with a bit of lore associated with them? Instead of making it where if you throw a rock that you'll hit a sword, make it where most of the swords are in the hands of the legion and "locked" onto them using some sort of enchantment or something. Instead have it where the few weapons, armors etc that aren't standard issue are- in fact- rather unique and powerful. Like say early on, we might learn about a grove where an ancient axe said to have cut down the first tree in the time long forgotten is enshrined. When we get there and arrive at the grove, we find a huge two handed axe with exquisite craftsmanship, 3 slots for spheres and a natural affinity (say +3 attack) against plants. Boom, a unique item has been born and vastly more interesting than the steel axe bought from a shop with +3 versus plants. Make them rare, make them tailored to the setting and make it where when we get the things that they are treated as treasures. Sorta like imagine if the only "weapons" in ToS were radiants. All the others were "mook only" because the first thing the evil emperor does is install a "Binding" sphere on his gear making anyone else who tries to use them become cursed and injured. So the few weapons that do exist are generally very important, rare pieces that we have to work to obtain. This will also allow for a great deal of customization as I'll get into below.

Classifying:
I feel like if you go with this "all weapons, armor etc are unique and one of a kind" thing that classifications cease to matter.

Function:
If you go with the rare but powerful weapons idea, I feel like one thing that should be included is the ability to craft it to your liking. Lets make a few hard and fast about these rare, unique weapons and armors. First they are masterworks, comparable to the best things that we can forge today either due to value, function or form. Secondly they are created from a similar substance as the Mystspheres themselves, thus making these works unable to be "cursed" by the evil emperor and requiring his mumbo jumbo to use. Which, by the way, as a genre savvy evil emperor making it where the common folk could only rebel with their cloths and pitchforks against a trained legion is a great idea. And lastly that all weapons and armors naturally possess at least 1 pre-existing 'customization' on them. Your purple, ominous spear inflicts poison strike. The golden gauntlets produce lightning when you punch. The Sea Walker's Boots let you stride across the water etc. And that all of these items can be further customized via a form of "crafting."

Personal Suggestion:
If you went with me this far, why not take it a step further? What if instead of having these rare weapons and armor reforged and crafted when we get drops instead the weapons and armor themselves change naturally? Say after so many fights, events etc against certain creatures, bosses etc that each weapon and armor had the option of "changing" to accommodation the user's style since they are made from Mystsphere crystal? After cutting through an entire highly armored legion for half a story line, the "axe that chopped down the first tree" might have the option of gaining one of the following effects at the player's choice: Manslayer (+2 against human foes), Piercing (+4 against armored enemies) or Duelist (+2 DEF against human foes). To show this change, the very "natury" looking axe might take on a more metallic look and the axe head itself might become larger and heavier to show that it now excels in cutting down men as well as plants.

To me this unique look at weapons and armor just sounds cool since we are using a stat system anyways. Plus the idea of an evil overlord that makes the vast majority of the weapons and armor in a setting locked into his soldiers only just seems like an awesome way to ensure that he remains in control.
I agree that the weapons should be hard to acquire because of the setting, but if every weapon is at the level where it can be considered a legendary item or something, there are two problems that immediately come to mind. One is that they'll be too powerful. Two is that they won't come often enough to really serve any point, because unless there are hundreds of legendary artifacts, it'll be a long time until most players can get them.

It seems to me that the point of having weapons that improve your stats is to not only provide a way of increasing your stats via some other manner than just the Myst and Mod Spheres, but also as a kind of reward that players can get for their work crafting, fighting, etc. And while legendary weapons are certainly a reward, they're pretty much a one time only reward. That won't necessarily give players the satisfaction that the stat arms seem to be designed for.

Think about it like a video game. You overcome a challenge, you get a reward. Since doing exp would be a shitload of trouble I haven't even offered that as an option--my idea was for Myst and Mod Spheres to be the reward. But if you don't get those rewards rather frequently, the reward loses its value. It's like "I played 100 hours and I only got this T-shirt." Sure, it might be a T-shirt of +5 Defense and 100% Fire Resistance, but it's just one thing compared to one hundred hours spent playing.
Think more the fable system of weapon acquirement. While the items themselves are rare and unique, they aren't legendary. Most of the items we find have a single attribute, a unique appearance and 3 slots. Rarer ones might possess 2 innate abilities, improve multiple attributes, have 5 slots and already have owners (which must be impressed or slain to get) and then the legendary ones might get as high as 4-5 abilities, increase all or multiple attributes and have lore lasting back centuries.

With the evolving weapon idea, basically our basic ones or intermediates could even provide a chance to craft gains into them via development during the story based on their own actions rather than choice. Admittedly, if you aren't a huge fan I'll keep it for myself later on since really this could work for any of my fantasy RPs too. Plus who wouldn't want to get loretastic weapons and armor instead of the mundane sort that have to be crafted?
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Garm0099
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Marksman
The only problem I can foresee with acquiring weapons is the problem that plagues almost any world where there is treasure. Really the problem only affects people who uses somewhat exotic weapons. When you think about it, what are the most common weapons? Most likely longswords, greatswords, and maybe the occasional axe or lance. This may seem fine but it proposes problems for people who use weapons like halberds, hammers, curved swords etc. I don't know, it probably isn't a problem to anyone but me. And even if you were to do the obvious work around for this problem which is only give weapons that the group uses, it still brings up the odd question of why are people leaving weapons around that we use.

So really its not a problem with the system itself, but more with logistics so eh, take it with a grain of salt.
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Kazemitsu
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Assassin
It's fine to have all these lore riddled weapons...but a lot of people don't care about that. They care about the numbers and that's pretty much it. If you have a normal weapon that does one more damage point over the other weapon with 5 free slots instead of 3 filled and 2 empty they're going to go for the 5 free and one more damage.
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Onime No Ryu
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I'll be your Undertaker this evening
Garm0099
February 18, 2013, 6:56 pm
The only problem I can foresee with acquiring weapons is the problem that plagues almost any world where there is treasure. Really the problem only affects people who uses somewhat exotic weapons. When you think about it, what are the most common weapons? Most likely longswords, greatswords, and maybe the occasional axe or lance. This may seem fine but it proposes problems for people who use weapons like halberds, hammers, curved swords etc. I don't know, it probably isn't a problem to anyone but me. And even if you were to do the obvious work around for this problem which is only give weapons that the group uses, it still brings up the odd question of why are people leaving weapons around that we use.

So really its not a problem with the system itself, but more with logistics so eh, take it with a grain of salt.
This is one of the problems I foresee. We'll have all these weapons and shit and then someone will be like "but i use THIS weapon and I'll have to design a hundred more weapons for them to progress with.
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Garm0099
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Marksman
I like lore and stuff on my weapons though lol. I mean when you think about it, what does your character know actually? When you give specific numbers like +1 and stuff like that, it sorta makes the player metagame a bit. To your character using your example, all they know is that this weapon has 3 slots, the other 5, and when you strike with the 3 slot weapon, it also hits with fire. I don't know, but I say keep lore in :D
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Onime No Ryu
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I'll be your Undertaker this evening
Since our stats are as such:

LIFE
ATTACK
DEFENSE
SPEED

I'll probably have you guys start with 7 stat points to distribute. Using that as a base to build off of, if you guys could come up with weapons and what their values could be that'd be great--I already have some ideas for the usual stuff, arming swords, longswords, greatswords, axes, spears, etc, but with the sheer size of this shit it's gonna take a while.

You guys could especially help by coming up with these "legendary" weapons.
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oniskieth
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The Silver Light
Onime No Ryu
February 18, 2013, 9:54 am
You also voted to use my stat system
Liiiieeeessssss
Katherine's Approval
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Kazemitsu
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Assassin
Why're we going with the lore thing? It seems like it'd just complicate things. Also, a small question, why 7 sp? Why not 8? >.> seems like it'd help players balance if they wanted 2 in each slot. Just wondering.
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Onime No Ryu
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Kazemitsu
February 18, 2013, 10:51 pm
Why're we going with the lore thing? It seems like it'd just complicate things. Also, a small question, why 7 sp? Why not 8? >.> seems like it'd help players balance if they wanted 2 in each slot. Just wondering.
I actually want to prevent Mario type jack of all trades characters, because we had way too many of those in ToS. Even though a lot of people dropped out, we had characters who were good at magic, combat, and healing. In this RP, since using magic is so much easier and people will have a lot more abilities, I want to at least encourage specialization in SOME aspects.
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Kazemitsu
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We had healers? Aside from Adil I don't really remember anyone healing XD But true we did have a shitton of battlemages.

Life: 2
Attack: 2
Defense: 2
Speed: 1
:p
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NTNP
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You should probably increase the base number of stats to help differentate things a little bit. Realistically the "most" someone could have in a single stat is like 4 with everything else being for shit.

LIFE 1
ATTACK 4
DEFENSE 1
SPEED 1

To make something more reasonable, you would basically be reduced to only have a single point differentating the best and the worst verisons which doesn't really tell you very much. Like for example I'd like to run a defense x speed ultimate defender based character. As it stands I have something like this:

LIFE 2
ATTACK 1
DEFENSE 2
SPEED 2

Double the number of stat points you are giving here and we can make something a little more unique though since that difference of 1 to 2 really doesn't look that good. Lets take it from 7 to 14 and see if you can't see the difference here:

LIFE 3
ATTACK 1
DEFENSE 5
SPEED 5

See, now that looks significantly better. You can tell that this character is focused on survival rather than merely just a 'little' better and rounded. So yeah, having a slightly higher number of base stats will really help with differentiation.
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Onime No Ryu
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Yeah, I realized that another problem would be that with those few stats, you'd all die after like two hits. So maybe I'll boost it a little more. As long as it's not divisible by 2 or 4, it should force a little bit of specialization...so maybe triple that instead of double it, for 21 stat points?
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Primera Espada Yggdra
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The Kitty Cat, Mew!~
Here's my opinion. I think weapons and armor should not only be rewards from battle, but they should be sold in a shop system as well. A crafting system doesn't sound like a bad idea. I think the more powerful an equipment is, the higher the price should be. Regarding a tier system of weapons, I really don't have an opinion on that. However, I think that weapons should fall into different categories. The number of classes is really up to you, frankly. I also believe that custom weapons should be aloud, although you should make some rules on them.
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MagiusNecros
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GILGAMESH FAN KING
Refer to this. May help.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleMartialandExoticWeapons
Arch-Necromancer of the Gilgamesh Army- “I am who I am. The pain of others, I do not feel. The sorrow of others does not touch me. Death feeds me. Death pleases me. I am the essence I consume. You fools will become corpses here, because I wish it to be.”

Curse: Cursed with hourglass eyes that show how life slowly dies before him
Wields: Living sword Ragnarok and the Staff of Magius
Signature move: God's End
Overlimit: Ultimate Spellchain(Flare, Holy, Meteor, Grand Cross, Almagest, Dimension Zero, Big Bang)
Transformation: Turns into a great black dragon
YT Account:http://www.youtube.com/user/MagiusNecros?feature=mhee
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Garm0099
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Marksman
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons more of a selection over there. I don't know if there would be many shops in a setting like this, and the ones that are there would have really high prices as supply is low and demand high probably. And crafting given the same thing I have a feeling the only thing we would be able to make is Damascus steel, which although not bad, isn't the best either. I say stick to low availability arms and armor personally with drops only happening occasionally, and maybe finding the occasional magic weapon.
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Onime No Ryu
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I'll be your Undertaker this evening
Well, since it looks like no one wants to help create the weapons, we're probably going to have very few of them to go around because my list is slow coming. Thanks for the reference lists, though, Mag and Garm.

Would you guys like some sprites to go with the weapons, or would you prefer a text description? Cause these are some sprites I worked on for a little bit just to try it out:
Spoiler: click to toggle

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Kazemitsu
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Assassin
I'd like sprites and some text description. Not bashing your art stuff, but the spear head should be longer, like having a dagger blade on the tip of a staff.
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Shade
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Scout
Text.
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Onime No Ryu
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I'll be your Undertaker this evening
Here's a list of ONE HANDED SWORDS and their stats so far. Let me know if anything is unbalanced, overpowered, under powered, etc.

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oniskieth
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The Silver Light
I think a sabre should have more defense then a rapier.
Katherine's Approval
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Onime No Ryu
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oniskieth
February 20, 2013, 9:59 pm
I think a sabre should have more defense then a rapier.
Any particular reason why? The Rapier had a larger hilt covering most of the time and was faster, better for parrying. A saber was a bit thicker and thus slower.
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Systematic made by Phaede of the SZ..