| Welcome to Espada of Alexandria. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| A Question of Evil | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: February 14, 2013, 1:27 pm (940 Views) | |
| Onime No Ryu | February 14, 2013, 1:27 pm Post #1 |
|
I'll be your Undertaker this evening
|
Good vs. Evil. The primary conflict of almost every one of our RPs, especially the fantasy ones. In most of our RPs, we're fighting to either defeat a Big Bad, or to stop some kind of apocalypse from happening. Stop the demon invasion from another dimension! Defeat the evil kingdom trying to conquer us! Stop the big bad from summoning the ultimate monster! So on and so forth. Usually, our characters are not alone in their battles. They often have the aid of their home kingdom or some other ally. A lot of times there's a powerful "guide" character who can one shot a boss or something but happens to hold themselves back for some reason. But having this aid always raises some kind of question. Why doesn't the king send out the entire royal army to do this job? Why would the king trust a team of rag tag heroes instead of an elitely trained unit of soldiers to perform this task? How did the big bad not already get defeated if the king, guide character, or knights of the army are so powerful? It's hard to justify this without giving some flaw to the bad guy. THe villain always has to be smug and overconfident, he always has to be lazy and sit back on his throne while sending his less competent minions to do something. HIs henchmen have to be borderline retarded and make mistakes no logical person would make. So what if we just got rid of all that shit? The Big Bad is a magnificent bastard who tries his best not to make mistakes, and he trains and educates his peons and monsters just like any king would train their soldiers. Why doesn't the king send out the entire royal army to do this job? Because they already tried that! That was the first and most logical response...but the big bad's army was either more powerful, was led better, or was just plain lucky. They won, they killed the king and all his knights, there is no more royal army. Why would the king trust a team of rag tag heroes instead of an elitely trained unit of soldiers to perform this task? Because there is literally NO ONE left. All the powerful magi? Executed. All the best soldiers and the famous generals? Put to work as slaves in the big bad's most secure underground mines, not only to get rid of them, but to humiliate them and the people who idolized them. How did the big bad not already get defeated if the king, guide character, or knights of the army are so powerful? Because the big bad was more powerful, or smarter, or luckier, or found a secret weapon that overcame and killed all those guys. Basically, a setting where the world isnt IN DANGER...the danger has already come and gone, and the world is left in ruin. A crapsack place where you're lucky just to survive another day, to get a crumb of bread to eat. This kind of world would answer a lot of those questions that pop up about every RP, and would solve a lot of the things that "don't make sense." But would it be fun to play in? THat's my question to you. Would you enjoy an RP that used this Evil World as a setting? |
![]() |
|
| Shade | February 14, 2013, 1:38 pm Post #2 |
|
Scout
|
Oh, I think I would immensely enjoy a much darker setting such as the one you described, and honestly, a change of setting like this might be better for us all rather than a change in genre. A genre shift means nothing if we keep utilizing the same tried and true "rag-tag" band of heroes who nearly always save the day despite their quirks and disagreements. However, you'd have to be careful not to overdo the darkness of the setting. If it's too bleak, no one's really going to want to keep going, because it's not getting better. Somewhere, a line would need to be in place that still allowed the characters to have heroic moments, or happy moments, despite how grim the world around them is. And, if the world truly is in ruin, perhaps our characters shouldn't have "plot-armor" just because they're our creations? Make it so that they could easily die, and teamwork would be an absolute necessity. That would get RPer's to work together, and from there that might serve to keep them in the story, because no one wants to write alone without someone else interacting with them. And, that would also force character development, which is usually lacking in our other stories. If done correctly, I think a darker setting, regardless of the genre, would have quite the chance of success. |
![]() |
|
| Kazemitsu | February 14, 2013, 2:13 pm Post #3 |
|
Assassin
|
That sounds insanely interesting to me. It's like a small apocalypse happened. That's my view on it, except you can actually fix it. |
| |
![]() |
|
| Onime No Ryu | February 14, 2013, 2:23 pm Post #4 |
|
I'll be your Undertaker this evening
|
In regards to being careful about how dark it is, I agree. We'd need to make sure that the good guys were actually accomplishing something, otherwise there's no point. But at the same time, it certainly shouldn't be easy for them to do so. The question is, how do we find a difficulty that we can be satisfied with without raising the question of "If it was this easy the whole time, why didn't anyone try it before?" To lack of plot armor, I don't know if that would work or not. The thing about dying in other games is that it can always be attributed to something the player did wrong. They didn't dodge at the right time, they hit the wrong button, etc. Not to mention that there is a numerical system in place that calculates the chances of getting hit, of hitting any enemy, how much damage you do, and all of that. When you lose in a game and die, it's not something you can argue. But if we start killing off people in our RPs there's going to be a SHIT TON of arguing over whether it was justified, whether it was an auto hit, etc etc. Hell, as I think about it, I realize that fighting in RPs just doesn't actually work unless it's done in a manner that progresses like a story rather than a fight in a video game. Otherwise it's all just instant dodges and auto blocks and no hits ever land anywhere. We need to start discussing battles beforehand and actually working out what would make the best story before we write it or something. Forcing people all into one group can be good or bad depending on the people and how free roam the RP is. I don't really know what else to say about it. |
![]() |
|
| Reikakou | February 14, 2013, 5:33 pm Post #5 |
![]()
"Alcohol is humanity's friend. Can I abandon a friend? "
|
That is actually cool. A flawless big bad is the bane of anyone who’ll try to be a hero. And it doesn’t necessarily be a post apocalyptic world. The big bad might be a well intentioned extremist who, after conquering the entire world with might, wits and luck, he was able to somehow build a utopia for the people. Like a caste system or something which seems to be a perfect system at a first glance, but rotten in its very core. Our PCs role is to point out that rotten core and start a revolution of sorts by gaining support of more and more people along the way. Amassing strength that far exceeded the armies by the late rulers of the divided world when the big bad launched his conquest. And depending on the outcome of every battle that our PCs engage, we will come very closer or farther in defeating the big bad, Or if the heroes do not make it in time, the real apocalypse will happen. Meaning, a bad ending. So that every action and decisions every PC makes will count. Just my two cents. |
![]() |
|
| Garm0099 | February 14, 2013, 5:35 pm Post #6 |
|
Marksman
|
I like the idea of a darker setting personally. It's always seemed like a fun idea to write for something where "Life is shit, the world is shit and when you win, it is slightly less shit." |
![]()
| |
![]() |
|
| Onime No Ryu | February 14, 2013, 8:41 pm Post #7 |
|
I'll be your Undertaker this evening
|
He's not necessarily flawless, he's just not an idiot or lazy like most of our big bads kind of HAVE to be in order for their stories to work. Even if it's never directly examined or pointed out, the biggest flaw I can see our big bads usually having is being lazy, and sitting back on their thrones when any logical person would be taking steps to prevent a rebellion and crushing the heroes at the first opportunity. As for the rest of this, especially the idea of a well intentioned extremist building a corrupted utopia...no offense, but I don't think that's what we're going for here at all. I think Garm put it pretty well--everything is shit. I'm thinking miles of burned farmland, cities left in ruin. And as for not making it in time, that's already happened. The idea here is that the big bad has already won. Evil has triumphed. But there is still a chance for a new beginning, if heroes will rise to the challenge. But I think you guys are really getting what I want to go for here--a world where the actions of PCs will actually amount to something, instead of just maintaining the status quo. |
![]() |
|
| NTNP | February 15, 2013, 4:13 am Post #8 |
|
Admin
|
It sounds like you are wanting to make 4 major changes to your standard type of RP Onime, so lets take a look at them from the top: 1. The Setting: An after the end setting is always somewhat difficult to handle. In this one, you are imagining a setting after the great war has been lost, the land is in shambles, the majority of those who resisted are dead and the world is now attributing to "dystopia justifies the means" where the main focus seems to be making the big bad (and those he chooses) as rich, happy and comfortable as possible while making the rest of the world suffer in punishment. This decision in itself is huge, because suddenly a lot of character designs stop working. This is especially true, depending in how far back the war was. Basically our setting has become "you are in the evil kingdom (pre-empire), where the upper class (villains) live comfortably and anyone else is disposable without a second thought. Dead bodies line the streets, every city has gallows still warm to the touch. We are in hell and any who would have been heroes before are dead." This is a huge change, all made by the will of a single man... 2. The villain: You are finally deciding to put out a reasonably strong, intelligent and capable villain who has already accomplished his goals. There are some downsides to this decision. First of all, you are deciding to make the game a lot harder on those playing. Most of the time you use the idea of the sorting algorithmic of evil. From weakest and stupidest enemy to strongest, most capable enemy. By deciding to have your villain possess a brain you are basically choosing to make that formula null and void. As you said, once the heroes get noticed, he'll send in his elites. Using a game play example, imagine if at Lv.8, after the first serious victory, the BB sent out his Dragon (Lv.60) with a miniboss squad (4 of them, Lv. 35 each) and a detachment of high level mooks (30s) to demolish the hell out of the threat. Obviously this means that the way that our characters act to try and save the day would need to change. 2. The way to victory: Most of the time, the answer in our RP is to hit the bad guy until he stops doing evil, rest a while, if we see anymore evil hit it, rest again, talk some, go explore a dungeon, go hit the bad guy until he stops doing evil, fight another PC etc. In a world with a reasonable villain, reasonable response to danger and a little common sense that wont work well. I described above what a "reasonable" villain would do if he noticed a particular group was causing him trouble. So chances are instead we would need to change how we do things. We would need to make it where our goals are more reasonable (and smaller, less significant initially) in order to avoid the notice of the authorities. It would also probably mean that our characters themselves would have to gauge the pros and cons of trying to help people. It would become a much more objective based game, where making bad decisions could have consequences. 4. Reasonable Consequences: The last area to change (and brought up above already) is the consequences of our actions. You said before that you wanted a more reasonable game, which means that you'll have to punish idiotic behavior reasonably. One way (other than killing them in battle, which is usually a no-no) is by having certain responses result in reasonably bad consequences. If you hear that the rebel leader has been captured and is being held in the local general's castle before execution and you decide to go rescue him, that is fine and dandy. The castle itself is stocked with about 100 servants, 50-100 soldiers, probably 5 named characters and the general himself. If you choose to sneak in by dressing up like a guard, break into his room in the middle of the night and then escape out the window using a rope to a waiting horse in the middle of the night it might work. If you start a fire in town, forcing the majority of the soldiers to go out and try to stop it, then you might have a chance to fight your way upstairs, get the rebel leader and get back out before the majority of the guards and named characters return. Hell, maybe 6 on 1, you might even be able to kill the general. But going this way, chances are some of the guards that survived will be able to say who you are and what you looked like. Now the Emperor is aware of you, and his hunters will be coming for you soon... making just existing in the world a lot harder. But what happens if the party chooses to just bum rush the castle (like usual) and try to take out the 50-100 guards stationed there? I think this would be a good time to use that intelligence you are granting people to cause them to enter into an unwinnable battle of attrition. Offer up the chance to escape once, when it becomes clear shit has hit the fan, and then if the party doesn't get it, have the battle keep going and the bigger, stronger named enemies stationed in the area start showing up alongside the general. Suddenly the fight is looking closer to 6 on 60, there is no way to win here. We are given the option to surrender (thus triggering the option of a prison escape, if we are lucky) or keep fighting to the death and having our story end here. To make a setting, plot and narrative like this work you have to create internal rules and follow them. Using ME for example, my rules were: 1. You are skilled but weak, you must use your brains to try and survive. 2. Teamwork is a required since the world is dangerous. 3. Certain enemies should not be fucked with until you are ready or have a plan. 4. If you get into a fight with a stronger opponent, you get 2 chances to escape. 5. There will be deaths. If you fail to make reasonable decisions you will die. That is the nature of the game. Make a set of those rules for yourself, post them to the community, and then see who will agree. |
![]() |
|
| Onime No Ryu | February 15, 2013, 6:51 am Post #9 |
|
I'll be your Undertaker this evening
|
As far as characters getting punished goes, what I usually do is look for a specific statement in a character's post saying that they dodged, jumped out of the way, rolled to the side, etc. If they didn't do that and there's an attack they might get hit by, they're going to get hit. But how many hits should they take, or how big should the hit be, to determine whether or not they die? How long should I let those "battles of attrition" go on before I finally just kill them? And how can I make these deaths feel proper and deserved, so that players aren't so prone to argue or whine or try to BS their way out of it? Maybe players should keep track of their own HP the way I've been keeping track of Boss HP in Tales of Scion? Start at 100%, and then based on what's going on decide how much damage they take? I usually took off about 2-5% for regular attacks depending on how effective they were (using a blunt attack on an armored opponent, for exampe) and around 5-10% for "special" attacks like artes and spells, and 10-20% for attacks that were especially effective, like using Fire on a plant based enemy. Then of course as Syncro artes got more powerful, the percentages did too. If we had stats in this RP I fear it would make a lot of people not want to do it, especially if we had a lot of dice rolling to do to keep track of things, but that's another way to get a purely numerical set of health that we can keep track of. I feel like just relying on the honor system isn't enough, as we're all prone to have bad moments. |
![]() |
|
| oniskieth | February 15, 2013, 12:27 pm Post #10 |
![]()
The Silver Light
|
I feel like relying on the honorable system is perfectly fine, but there has to be someone who is constantly bringing down the hammer. No exceptions, no special treatment to friends. If someone charges headfirst into a storm of arrows with just their sword raised while wearing a g string and moon boots they should probably go lay down with a foam around their mouth for the remainder of the battle. If you do stats do like...a 3/5 system. Don't let people change it later on. They'll pick their main attributes at the start, and the only real purpose of the numbers will be reference. "Oh, he says he got back up after that attack? Not with 2 endurance and no armor!" Edited by oniskieth, February 15, 2013, 12:29 pm.
|
|
Katherine's Approval
| |
![]() |
|
| NTNP | February 15, 2013, 1:13 pm Post #11 |
|
Admin
|
I think an HP total might be a necessary evil, realistically for any combat based RP. If we use a percentage, that is fine. If we use hard stats that is fine. We just need something concrete for reference. And don't fear the stats. If the system is well designed, it doesn't scare people away. Look at most of my RPs, a lot of people joined them in spite of the stats... or perhaps because of them, since it gave everything a sense of stability. But honestly, breaking ties with the honor system is probably a necessary evil. |
![]() |
|
| Onime No Ryu | February 15, 2013, 1:16 pm Post #12 |
|
I'll be your Undertaker this evening
|
Well, so far it looks like most of the folks out of our number of "people who actually RP" are happy with this idea. So I'll continue planning with these ideas in mind. Thanks for your feedback everybody! |
![]() |
|
| oniskieth | February 15, 2013, 1:17 pm Post #13 |
![]()
The Silver Light
|
Please remember that we are all "Lazy fuckers." You know someone won't do it. |
|
Katherine's Approval
| |
![]() |
|
| Keith | February 15, 2013, 6:13 pm Post #14 |
|
Mage
|
Late to the party, but I also like the idea of a setting where the bad guy has already won and the world has been or is in the process of being reshaped as they see fit. Another idea I'm fond of is one where things are gray enough that you can't really label people as good or evil - they're just people with their own motivations trying to see them to fruition, but I think this would be pretty hard to pull off. Also, Spoiler: click to toggle
|
|
MAP OF HYRULE BESTIARY WORLD NOTES
| |
![]() |
|
| Primera Espada Yggdra | February 16, 2013, 6:07 pm Post #15 |
![]()
The Kitty Cat, Mew!~
|
So a world where the villain has already won? Well, not necessarily a victory, but the goal has been accomplished. It sounds interesting and I do remember seeing those scenarios in TV shows and movies. I can already picture in my mind, imagining what this scenario would look like. Actions by the roleplayer that will affect the ending. Reminds me of what I was doing in CVM. I think a scenario that takes place in a dark time would sound like a good idea. |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Because... My Imagination When talking with you. - Person A | |
![]() |
|
| MagiusNecros | February 18, 2013, 1:47 pm Post #16 |
![]()
GILGAMESH FAN KING
|
Could be interesting. Especially if I can play as a monster. Preferably a Death Knight or Dullahan. Tried using it in another RP, let's just say the roleplay didn't last long. Since it wasn't supposed to be dark in atmosphere at all. |
|
Arch-Necromancer of the Gilgamesh Army- “I am who I am. The pain of others, I do not feel. The sorrow of others does not touch me. Death feeds me. Death pleases me. I am the essence I consume. You fools will become corpses here, because I wish it to be.” Curse: Cursed with hourglass eyes that show how life slowly dies before him Wields: Living sword Ragnarok and the Staff of Magius Signature move: God's End Overlimit: Ultimate Spellchain(Flare, Holy, Meteor, Grand Cross, Almagest, Dimension Zero, Big Bang) Transformation: Turns into a great black dragon YT Account:http://www.youtube.com/user/MagiusNecros?feature=mhee
| |
![]() |
|
| Rasen | February 26, 2013, 10:25 pm Post #17 |
|
My response to this basically boils down to "just write a smarter story." Clearly you understand the problems with some RP setups, but you can fix those gaps in logic without throwing out the format altogether. There are plenty of fantasy stories that don't have a godlike mentor or an overcompetent big bad, but there's ways to justify their actions even if you use them. For example, maybe the big bad is locked away somewhere, relying on his band of followers to engineer the means for his escape. Another option is to make the story world more complex. Instead of focusing everything on one huge central conflict, maybe make a world that's full of problems and adventures for the heroes to tackle. |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
![]() Our users say it best: "Zetaboards is the best forum service I have ever used." Learn More · Register Now |
|
| « Previous Topic · RP ideas · Next Topic » |













.png/revision/latest?cb=20090324215003)













5:59 PM Jul 10