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| Tommy's 20,000 Researchers; Gathering credible (water tight) info for Tommy to take with him into interviews | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 6 2010, 10:05 PM (509 Views) | |
| Brownyboy35 | Dec 6 2010, 10:05 PM Post #1 |
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Thought Tommy did well once again in the Asian Networks "interview" can't be easy when absolutely everyone is just trying to trip you up, and lifting random quotes from tens of thousands of threads, written by absolutely anyone, but he did well none the less. Was reading a thread about it earlier and Homo Sapien made a good point. He basically said what a help it would be if Tommy went in armed with factual documentation re recent atrocities carried out in the name of Sharia law. Well i've just been thinking, he's got literally thousands of like minded, and very determined individuals on here every day, posting links left, right and centre, so why not help build a dossier for him to be able to pick out certain (relevent) and above all factual parts to take into interviews with him. I think Tommy's strongest point is he's down to earth, and very passionate about what he's saying (clever too) so i'm not suggesting he walks in with a brief case and just keeps pulling out fact after fact, but if you state a fact and the other person calls you a liar or says you're making it up and you pull out the source(s) it came from, you've proven that they in fact don't have a clue what's really going on. Now i'm not sure how it would work, maybe a seperate site for it to be compiled on, available for all to see, and pick over (we can't have anything but the exact truth, else it'll fall on it's arse. If anyone does decide to pick up and run with this, i'd suggest that any story first of all comes from a very credible source, and possibly in fact definitely from more than one, multiple sources. Maybe have different agendas too, Sharia law, Halal meat being served without proper labeling, hate filled quotes from so called moderates etc, you get the picture anyway. What do you think? NS (please excuse the spelling) |
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| Peter de Montaigu | Dec 6 2010, 10:11 PM Post #2 |
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I think it's a great idea. The problem would be how to organise and manage so much information so it can be referenced quickly. Needs to work like a wiki. |
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| Brownyboy35 | Dec 6 2010, 10:17 PM Post #3 |
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Yeah i know, how about if it's just limited to the last 6 or 12 months for a start, might keep the amount of traffic down. you'd have to put links up for every story of course, but it's just the layout like you say. I've got an idae but not sure how to impliment it. Hopefully someone will come up with something, or maybe someone will point out that it's unworkable, and that's that. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 6 2010, 10:34 PM Post #4 |
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Here's a start: http://crombouke.blogspot.com/2010/01/everything-you-need-to-know-about-islam.html |
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| Malbekh | Dec 6 2010, 10:44 PM Post #5 |
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A spokesperson would not go too far wrong by reading Geert Wilders on the subject. |
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| billy-no-mate | Dec 6 2010, 11:01 PM Post #6 |
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Bamiyan... i followed a link from you to that site a few weeks ago. I was rooting in it for hours. I had just 3 hours sleep before work because of it. The idea of a factual document is a good one but in an interview situation would it seam as if Tommy was reading a script or something and didn't know his stuff. He does a bloody good job as it is. It aint broke, don't try to fix it. |
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There are those who sit and await their fate, others stand against this hate, NO SURRENDER we all shout, lets get this bloody ISLAM out. | |
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| Brownyboy35 | Dec 6 2010, 11:10 PM Post #7 |
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I'm not saying he should just read out quotes, but he could have back up for if he got pulled up on things, for instance when he was trying to get a word in edgeways with Georgr Galloway and he said something related to university's and Galloway said which ones and when he couldn't reel them off he called him a liar. i know that's basic research and anyone can do that, but he hasn't got a highly paid team tp help him uncover facts, so i'm suggesting we do it for him. I think it'll give him more clout when going into these things, alongside his own style of course. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 6 2010, 11:12 PM Post #8 |
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That blog is amazing, well what I've read from it is! |
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| Deleted User | Dec 6 2010, 11:21 PM Post #9 |
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I think the trick is to stick to only a few subjects, swat up on them beforehand and then try to steer the interview your way. |
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| billy-no-mate | Dec 7 2010, 12:54 AM Post #10 |
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Shouting down the opposition is allaways way of doing things. Its his show. Tommy can expect this kind of interview from time to time, But still I thought he came out of it shining. I listen to radio 2 a lot (its an age thing!) When vine is interviewing he has an ear piece and is instructed secretly, I assume allaway has the same. Tommy is a likeable guy, thinking on his feet, with his love of this country in his heart. Admirable qualities that the public like. Every interview he does is practise for the next. Peterpedant, resplendent in his festive hat makes a good point. Nobody can remember it all and try to steer it your way, difficult at best. Would allaway have waited for Tommy to find the right page in his notes to prove his facts? I don't think he would. But if Tommy was linked via an earpiece to a panel of clued up EDL well.... |
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There are those who sit and await their fate, others stand against this hate, NO SURRENDER we all shout, lets get this bloody ISLAM out. | |
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| roger_bates | Dec 7 2010, 01:17 AM Post #11 |
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As well as knowing key facts, training for debates but putting yourself in the other person's shoes is the best thing to do. I do it all the time at work to ensure I have the answers to questions that come up. So for instance if you quote events that have happened in other countries under sharia law, the interviewer will say well that's not gonna happen here. The response is then that there are already 85 sharia law courts in the uk etc |
| Visit my website - How to be Politically Correct www.makemepc.com | |
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| Deleted User | Dec 7 2010, 01:43 AM Post #12 |
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Tommy understands the issue. The only conversation I've ever had with him was about this subject. The implementation is part of the issue. Having the right material, and having it properly organised and abstracted is important. I think that a single file with less than 40 pages is enough (including a handful of choice photographs). In today's interview you could see the disbelief on Tommy's face - the muslim was either totally ignorant or flat-out lying. I don't think Tommy ever anticipated that he would be given an open goal like that. The funny thing is that next time they will line up a "more informed" muslim. But we need to start getting some of our learned colleagues lined up for that match. I know who I would pick. But please don't discuss names here. They should not be given an advance warning of who we will be pitting against them. The tectonic plates are shifting. I believe EDL is moving into a totally different arena now. |
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| Deleted User | Dec 7 2010, 01:44 AM Post #13 |
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tommy needs to do what politicians do .... read up on some key facts before heading into a interview .. these facts regarding islam need to be recent and relevant to the interview ... all politicians get 'crib notes' prior to interviews which will tell them roughly what way the interview will flow .. tommy needs to have sight of these, then he has to do some 'notes' to have to respond ... Roberta had the same issue on the radio, she was good, but missed a fantastic opportunity on their when asked to quote a bit off the koran, she needs to have several koran phrases in front of her, and some recent backup facts about those ... small things like this will put them both in better light and make the islamist squirm ... good job none the less guys keep it up |
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| Mahihkan | Dec 7 2010, 04:17 AM Post #14 |
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I think you should stay away from arguments and quotes from the Koran, you should be able to make your case without it. Stick to relevent facts and actions. Letting them lead you into arguments about the Koran is want they want. |
| AUT PAX AUT BELLUM | |
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| bio | Dec 7 2010, 08:58 AM Post #15 |
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I disagree with you on this point. There is a lot of evidence that islamist extremists have connections on international level, as well as financial, educativae and other support from all over the world. So I don't believe that it's a good idea to confine the problem to a local scope. |
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| brawlad | Dec 7 2010, 09:29 AM Post #16 |
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I agree with homo sapiens that the edl is moving into a new arena. It needs to get cleverer about presenting its case. My suggestion would be, as a first step, to sharpen the focus of the edl, to prepare a clear simple statement of what it is in favour of & what it is opposed to & why. The emphasis should be on positives rather than negatives, on being pro rather than anti. First item could well be the principle of one law applying to everyone equally. Reasons - this is the basis of a united country & cohesive society. Then facts about sharia which demonstrate its tendency to set up an alternative law, its difficulties in accepting secular law, etc. And so on. In this way the learning & preparation work for spokespersons would be manageable & the message would be clear & simple enough to get across to viewers in short interviews. Quite apart from helping with getting the message across, it would also make clear targeted goals & concrete demands, eg abolition of 'sharia tribunals' in the uk, open labeling of halal meat, etc. |
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| Ryder | Dec 7 2010, 09:42 PM Post #17 |
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The way to implement this idea is really quite straightforward: It relies on a database of facts. Each fact has keywords associated with it. Each fact is also cross referenced against other facts contained in the same database... for example... Keyword 9/11, 9th September Fact: (Undisputed details of 9/11) Cross Referenced with: Muslim light aircraft pilots licenses acquired last year (Office of National Statistics). Any database of this sort can be formatted to be displayable on a web page for people to pick over the details of any proposed queries. Moreso, however, a simple app for iphone would be simplicity itself to create that would enable the user to search for relevant information and browse it by simply entering a search term and providing a catalog of terms and entries that are relevant according to their tags and references. The important thing would be that each Fact would have to be researched and once considered rpoven would have to be closed in much the same way as a thread oin this forum can be closed. Otherwise the fact itself will become obscured in endless debate... something we are all guilty of. To expand this idea into real costs... Developing the database itself would be the most costly aspect: around 40 hours programming time including debugging. lets say £1000-£1500 Then the app for iphone... say about 20 hours so £500-£750 Hosting for the database and required web pages would usually be estimated at around £120.00 annually Hence a facility llike this...tailored to be used on the move would cost up to £2250.00 to create. Unless you get some willing volunteers who are a bit good with programming. Edited by Ryder, Dec 7 2010, 09:47 PM.
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| nabzy68 | Dec 7 2010, 10:03 PM Post #18 |
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i agree tommy needs to have more info available,he needs to think and act like a politician when being interviewed.he needs to be able to take the upper hand in a debate.(not knocking him in the slightest.).but i think he needs to be able to appeal to a more diverse public.not saying turn up in a suit but he needs a bit of practise with his body language as well.slouching on the couch made the muslim seem to be looming over him almost looking down at him. imagine its a job interview and you really want to impress.still thats my tuppeny worth.got to go know. keep up the good work |
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| roger_bates | Dec 7 2010, 11:18 PM Post #19 |
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I agree with this. When you give quotes, the argument then moves in 3 ways: 1. "You've taken it out of context" 2. "The translation from arabic is not correct" or "you don't speak arabic" 3. Choice quotes from the bible to 'prove' that christinaity is just as bad I tend to stick to the general point that people are carrying out attrocities (terrorism and sharia law) and they are inspired by the Koran and words and deeds of mohammed. When they respond that these people are misinterpreting it, I respond that that is one of the problem with islam, the fact that it is so easily open to interpretation with such devastating consequences I definately think that setting up some sort of file of key points and tactics for debates is the way forward. There are lots of people here who have been there and done that with debates with muslims that can help. Edited by roger_bates, Dec 7 2010, 11:19 PM.
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| Visit my website - How to be Politically Correct www.makemepc.com | |
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| Brownyboy35 | Dec 7 2010, 11:25 PM Post #20 |
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I agree about not quoting "that book" but having hard facts to back up points made during interviews, stick to bullet points etc, and he needs to learn to swerve loaded questions, politicians do it absolutely everytime they're asked something. |
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| PLUMBER | Dec 7 2010, 11:44 PM Post #21 |
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Tommy needs to take a lot af standard replies in to interveiws with him. Al the accusations about being a right wing racist group ect, should be quickley put down. He also needs coaching in the art of giving interveiws. hes up against people who are well schooled in the art. Hes doing a great job, with a bit more practise he will get better. Its very important that we win the properganda war. Tommys got balls, armed with the right info when he gos into interviews will make him a formidable force. We know how evil islam is, the public needs to shown the truth. |
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| sceptic | Dec 8 2010, 02:53 AM Post #22 |
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It's not for me to put words in anyone else's mouth, but my advice, for what it's worth, would be this: Keep Koranic scripture to a minimum (to those seeking sustained examination of theological niceties, refer them to the works of, e.g. Bernard Lewis [eminent Princeton scholar], Ibn Warraq, Christopher Hitchens, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Robert Spencer, Sam Harris, Wafa Sultan). Admit openly that you yourself haven't read everything these people have written, but, you've read enough to know that there is a real problem with Islam and western secular liberalism. What problem? Point out that the "Golden Rule" (the idea that we should treat other people the way we ourselves would like to be treated) is ABSCENT in the Koran. This principle is to be found in many different religions and ideologies, but Islam isn't one of them. Be aware of the principle of "abrogation" in Islam (the notion that when two apparently contradictory things are said, the later one is to be followed over the earlier one). Many Muslims are fond of quoting the "let there be no compulsion in religion" passage, but later passages make clear that the infidel is to be fought. The proscribed penalty for apostasy (leaving the religion) in Islam is death. This is not compatible with the freedom to think for oneself and freedom of conscience. Also be aware of a quotation by Ignazio Salone (not Churchill) which is very prophetic - "The fascists of the future will be called anti-fascists". However, as I said, I would leave these types of issues to others. Rather than taking the bait of what "Islam" really is, I would stress the most basic and important values of secular liberal democracy and thereby force any critic to take sides between these values and other conflicting values, whatever they are (in this case Islam). e.g. Free Speech. Islam means "submission". We must keep our hard won freedom to be able, without molestation, to examine, ridicule, or reject ANY ideology or religious belief, as long as we don't promote violence. Islam does not allow this. This is a problem. We believe in equality of the sexes. Whatever St. Paul says in the Bible, our laws and values reject the notion that a man is necessarily superior to a woman. Again, this is incompatible with Islamic teaching and Sharia Law. We believe in secularism. We believe that religion is essentially a private matter between a believer and his/her God. Religious text are NOT a source of laws and policies and we don't have priests and theologians as rulers. Islam is a totalitarian ideology, it does not recognise, as Christianity does, the separation of Church and State. This goes back to Jesus saying - “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”. Islam doesn't accept this separation. Point out that, e.g. an 2006 ICM opinion poll found 40% of British Muslims backed introducing shariah in parts of Britain. If any critic tries to pretend that there is not a real conflict here, ask them to explain a very simple and everyday observable phenomenon. Why do the overwhelming majority of Muslims refuse to socialise with infidels in any meaningful way? The basics are clear, we have two very different values at work: modern, free, liberal democratic secularism, and, on the other side, a defence and increasing promotion of Islamic values. These two value systems are simply incompatible and cannot exist in harmony. In other words, it's Islam that has the problem with modern liberal democracy and free speech. Most of us really don't care about Islam, just as we don't really care about communism or fascism. Islam has to adapt or reform itself in order to be compatible with modern free liberal democratic society, or, alternatively, Islam will increasingly change and dominate our society. This is what many of us can see is actually happening in a thousand ways and we oppose this. |
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| Brownyboy35 | Dec 8 2010, 08:22 AM Post #23 |
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Lots of good points very well made, especially the last paragraph. how i would have loved Tommy to have posed any of those questions, or made any of those statements!! |
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| totherarf | Dec 8 2010, 08:54 AM Post #24 |
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Quoting the "book of peace" is an excelent idea! Point 1 .. Is any part of the book not valid? Can you pick and choose parts to suit your purpose ..... and if you can/ can't why do the immans do it (insert quote of suitable imman ) Point 2 .. The translation has been verified by Arabic speakers and dictionaries as well as being confirmed by an Imman! ..... were they wrong/ lying? ... and if so why? Point 3 .. The Christian church has an episcaple set up (Vicars, Bishops, Arch Bishpos, .... etc) who provide a check against any wayward teachin claiming to be "official christianity" .... What is to stop me setting up as an imman (with my 5 followers) and claiming equil authority as any other imman? |
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| lancastrian | Dec 8 2010, 09:42 AM Post #25 |
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I will volunteer to assist with the database programming side - I've 30 years IT experience including database admin. |
| Outlaw sharia law | |
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| Battle of Lepanto | Dec 8 2010, 10:12 AM Post #26 |
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I think he did a grand job and should carry on what he is doing. He'll never get an easy ride in interviews like that. Even if he could quote the Koran like Robert Spencer (jihadwatch.org) they'd still give him the runaround, and you'll never get an honest debate with an Islamist. I don't think there is anything to be gained by trying to be an expert on TV. Anyway, what's there to discuss with some of these people? Better a shrug of the shoulders and the brick sh!t-house approach. Edited by Battle of Lepanto, Dec 8 2010, 10:13 AM.
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ANTI-JIHADIST FREE-THINKER | |
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| S.W.A.T. | Dec 8 2010, 05:31 PM Post #27 |
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Good idea. maybe top points could be arranged/indexed on a small laptop or a palm held puter. as we cant afford a prompter yet ![]() I think Tommy surprises a lot of people who know little about the EDL and have not heard Tommy speak before. i mean, no offence to the middle classes but your average uni student type has a stereotype image of us and are probably expecting a semi illiterate half drunk knuckle dragger to approach the microphone amd let loose with a barrage of hate fuelled rhetoric. and are then surprised that Tommy delivers our point of view in an intelligent - articulate and thought out manner. plus anyone who goes up against that terrorist empathissing stalinist G'allahway gets my vote. |
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"A MANS MORAL WORTH IS ESTABLISHED ONLY AT THE POINT WHERE HE IS READY TO GIVE UP HIS LIFE IN DEFENSE OF HIS CONVICTIONS".... HENNING VON TRESCKOW | |
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| roger_bates | Dec 8 2010, 07:48 PM Post #28 |
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I'm not saying the 3 points are valid or they can't be argued against, but when you've got a 5 minute interview and maybe 1 or 2 opportunities to respond to a point before the next question is asked, you need to deliver crisp, headline grabbing facts. Edited by roger_bates, Dec 8 2010, 07:50 PM.
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| Visit my website - How to be Politically Correct www.makemepc.com | |
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| made in England | Dec 8 2010, 08:05 PM Post #29 |
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Regarding Tommy being armed with unlimited ammo, what does he expect to gain from this?, or rather how will the Muslims especially the radicals react? because the last think we want now is for the Islamic extremists to disappear and go underground for the next two or three decades for our children to contend with when they make a reappearance but only ten times stronger. We must flush them out and eradicate the threat in a humanitarian way as possible, repatriation is the only answer, the middle East which they so fondly scream about is a huge place, tens of thousands squares of miles of empty space to turn into whatever they see fit. |
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"Our ancestors took this land. They took it and made it and held it. We do not give up what our ancestors gave us. They came across the sea and they fought here, and they built here and they're buried here. This is our land, mixed with our blood, strengthened with our bone. Ours!" Nations which go down fighting rise again, those who surrender tamely are finished Midsomer the last great bastion of Englishness ....Brian True-May Werian se Angelcynn | |
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| Valteron | Dec 8 2010, 09:01 PM Post #30 |
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There are a lot of good points here, but I think sceptic has some of the best. I have experience with media, and I can tell you that what you need most going into an interview is a lot of short, snappy quotes. Tommy does a great job. He is a handsome, sincere-looking lad whom people tend to like at first sight. I would agree that while he should not come on in a suit and tie (it is not really him, is it?) he might try a jacket and jeans and open-neck shirt (smart casual). It is not necessary for Tommy to have 1000 references from the Koran on flash cards. But preparing maybe 10 general lines and then one or two short examples for every major topic (sexism in Islam, anti-semitism, etc.) would be a good idea. All Tommy would need to do is rehearse these lines with a few friends acting as opponents and he would go into these interviews like a killing-machine robot! One or two specific references to the Koran is enough to show the audience he is not talking out of his arse. For example, "Surah 4, verse 34, clearly says that men are in charge of women and have a right to beat them as a form of discipline." THE IMPORTANT THING IS THAT LINES BE REALLY SHORT. NO LINE SHOULD TAKE MORE THAN 10 SECONDS TO SAY. Here are a few good lines. The first is actually a shortened form of what sceptic said. This is the secret. Take a much longer argument, and keep condensing it until you have a line of 10 seconds or less that hits like a punch! 1. It's Islam that has the problem with democracy and free speech, attacking authors, film-makers and cartoonists. Islam has to adapt to modern free society, because we will not surrender these rights. (9.6 seconds) 2. Why do I need to speak Arabic to tell you what the Koran says? Muslims quote the Koran in English anytime it suits them. I can find the Koran in English on any number of web sites. (8 seconds) 3. I have to be a Muslim to say what Islam is about? You aren't a member of the EDL, but you seem to have plenty of opinions about US! (6.5 seconds) Here is a line that Tommy used in the BBC debate. Note how effective it was. 4. It's already there. Was 9/11 our fault? Was 7/7 our fault? It's all these madrasses teaching (hatred). We are a symptom of the problem. Don't deal with us. Deal with the problem. (8.6 seconds) I think Tommy is already an effective spokesperson if he just polishes the technique. |
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| sceptic | Dec 9 2010, 01:19 AM Post #31 |
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The thing to remember is that very many people (in the media and in positions of power) want to shut you up, and the best way to marginalise you is to demonise and misrepresent you to the general public. The usual way of doing this is to: 1.Portray the EDL as simply violent thugs. 2.Portray the EDL as ill-informed. 3.Portray you as "Islamophobic" i.e. "racist". Remembering that the mass media is the only source of information most people will have about the EDL, the best way to counter these 3 tactics is: 1. Stress, in words and deeds, non-violence. 2. Stick to the most basic facts about the secular, liberal, democratic values that you support. Stress what you're for rather than what you're against. Your for: free-speech, the freedom to examine, discuss and criticise other points of view (as long as it doesn't promote violence); equality between the sexes; secularism (keeping religion out of politics), freedom of conscience, social integration between people of all backgrounds, religions, and colours. Given that you're for these things, it should be blindingly obvious why you have a problem with radical and political Islam. You never emigrated to a Muslim, totalitarian, theocratic society, so you see no good reason why you should agree to live under one here. It's a disgrace that many in power seem to want us to live in an increasingly parallel society, which is really a form of apartheid. I thought apartheid was universally agreed to be evil? It's Islam and many Muslims who have a problem with the laws and customs that exited in this country well before mass Muslim immigration occurred. Less "multicultural", politically correct lies, more "when in Rome do as the Romans do", and one law for all! 3. Point out the obvious, that Islam is not a race!!! It's a point of view about the world, like a thousand others, and there is no reason whatsoever why it should receive special treatment and be immune from criticism. Also add that the term "Islamophobia" is a hollow slur simply designed to silence debate. A phobia is an irrational fear, but there is nothing irrational in someone who values free speech and equality of the sexes to be suspicious of Islam. It's no coincidence that there isn't a single Islamic country on earth as free and liberal as most western nations. valteron, I agree with your previous post! especially point1. Well put. Edited by sceptic, Dec 9 2010, 01:29 AM.
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| Mahihkan | Dec 9 2010, 05:11 AM Post #32 |
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When they mention killing in the old testament a good retort They also mention animal sacrifices, but we don't do that anymore. |
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