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Facts about Israel and Palestine; Very inconvenient truths that the media cover up
Topic Started: Nov 23 2010, 09:46 PM (426 Views)
Fritz
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1. Palestine has never been a state. It has only ever been just a geographical area like Sahara, Antarctica (Sahara for the Saharans anybody?)
2. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any State other State other than of the 3 Jewish states that have existed over the millenia
3. The Palestine that Britain took over was 42,000 sq miles
4. Israel currenly has 8,000 sq miles of this (same as Wales) and has to defend itself against 1.25 billion muslims all indoctrinated from birth to kill them. (See last nights Panorama)
5. The name "Palestinians" was only ever applied to Jews in Palestine, NEVER to arabs until after 1967. A re-branding masterstroke that the Russians advised them to do, so that the sheeple in the Univerities (leftist seminaries) and our wonderful journalists could chant "Palestine for the Palestinians"
6. You may want to check out but during the 1940,s Britain had Palestinian brigades in Palestine that were wholly manned by jews, and the British army always at that time referred to THEM as Palestinians.
7. The arabs fought on the Nazi side at this time and only changed sides a few days before the defeat of Nazism (whose habits they retain)
8. The return of the European Jews (about 300,000) in the 20th century merely showed the existing dhimmi jews of the middle east and Israel how to regain control of the government of their state. This culminated in the re-founding of the state of Israel.
9. A jewish population has never been absent from Israel. The influx of European Jews in the 20th century merely facilitated the wresting back of control from the corrupt conquerors. And what did these conquerors give to mankind? The word baksheesh? New methods of fighting like Taqiyya and Kitman?


As long as the Muslims have huge amounts of petro-dollars there will many, who aspire to power and influence, who see merit in whatever muslims want. Truth is but a small weapon against the Vast corrupting influence of the oil money
Goodbye guys and gals. We gave it a try. Immigration worked with everyone else. Just not muslims. No hard feelings. Have a nice life, just have it somewhere else.
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hard hats on everyone.

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clee1970
Nov 23 2010, 09:51 PM
hard hats on everyone.

:D :D
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primalmana108
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Obviously OP doesn't understand nationalism and identity. it is irrelevant what we think is a nationality or identity, there exists people in the world who consider themselves Palestinians and were people that belonged to a country.

How can they be wrong ? That's like me telling you , you are just British because you were born on a piece of land and British people are just a mixture of Germans and Scandinavia, so you don't exist as a people and do not deserve a country because of that.
When Muslims invade this country, they will just say the same thing about the British.
Edited by primalmana108, Nov 23 2010, 10:08 PM.
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brianoflondon
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Sorry, I'm still writing on the other one... can't we stick to one of these damn threads at a time?

I'll come back here one some posts me the name of a 16th Century English, Jewish and non Jewish Palestinian Poet.

And yes, you, as Englishmen, can look at your nation, it's history and achievements and say to any other, so how many fcuking trains tracks did you build around the world? How many times did your nation or culture save the whole damn world from fascists? fcuk cultural relativism. Some cultures are more useful and good than others so why should we reward the retarded ones?
Brian of London has been actively occupying a very small slice of hideously over-occupied Tel Aviv since early 2009.


Islam is a giant bungee cord tying it's adherents to the 7th century.
They can pull themselves almost to the twenty first century but eventually the cord tightens and flings them back.
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primalmana108
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it is retarded and backward and a filthy way of life and living in slums and full of inbreds, but they still had it taken from them. If they want to live like that, and have that land , it is their right.



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primalmana108
Nov 23 2010, 10:07 PM
Obviously OP doesn't understand nationalism and identity. it is irrelevant what we think is a nationality or identity, there exists people in the world who consider themselves Palestinians and were people that belonged to a country.

How can they be wrong ? That's like me telling you , you are just British because you were born on a piece of land and British people are just a mixture of Germans and Scandinavia, so you don't exist as a people and do not deserve a country because of that.
When Muslims invade this country, they will just say the same thing about the British.
I DONT LIKE YOU MUCH
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brianoflondon
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primalmana108
Nov 23 2010, 10:36 PM
it is retarded and backward and a filthy way of life and living in slums and full of inbreds, but they still had it taken from them. If they want to live like that, and have that land , it is their right.



No. they only borrowed the house from us, fcuked it up and now they've lost their deposit and we've come home to live here. They can sleep on the couch but only if they stop with the loud bangs.
Brian of London has been actively occupying a very small slice of hideously over-occupied Tel Aviv since early 2009.


Islam is a giant bungee cord tying it's adherents to the 7th century.
They can pull themselves almost to the twenty first century but eventually the cord tightens and flings them back.
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primalmana108
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brianoflondon
Nov 23 2010, 10:42 PM
primalmana108
Nov 23 2010, 10:36 PM
it is retarded and backward and a filthy way of life and living in slums and full of inbreds, but they still had it taken from them. If they want to live like that, and have that land , it is their right.



No. they only borrowed the house from us, fcuked it up and now they've lost their deposit and we've come home to live here. They can sleep on the couch but only if they stop with the loud bangs.
HAHA I love that

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Fritz
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primalmana108
Nov 23 2010, 10:07 PM
Obviously OP doesn't understand nationalism and identity. it is irrelevant what we think is a nationality or identity, there exists people in the world who consider themselves Palestinians and were people that belonged to a country.

How can they be wrong ? That's like me telling you , you are just British because you were born on a piece of land and British people are just a mixture of Germans and Scandinavia, so you don't exist as a people and do not deserve a country because of that.
When Muslims invade this country, they will just say the same thing about the British.
You are confused about the exact meaning of 3 words
1. Nation e.g The English are a nation having distinct National characteristics, The French are a nation having distinct National characteristics, The Dutch are a nation having distinct National characteristics
2. State = a political entity. Your passport is issued by the British State, not by England which is the name of a Nation that is part of the British State
3. Country = A loose geographical term

So to take some examples.
1. Kurds are a nation and have distinct National characteristics but they have no State
1. The Basques are also nation and have distinct National characteristics but they have no State either
2. The Palestinians are NOT A NATION and have NO distinct National characteristics from the surrounding arabs of which they are part. They speak the same language, eat the same food, etc. The name Palestinians was only adopted by them in 1967. There is No Palestinian Nation nor has there ever been. Etymology and Archeology tell the same story. But they want a state and blackmail the world to get it.

HTH


Goodbye guys and gals. We gave it a try. Immigration worked with everyone else. Just not muslims. No hard feelings. Have a nice life, just have it somewhere else.
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brianoflondon
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Fritz
Nov 23 2010, 11:00 PM
So to take some examples.
1. Kurds are a nation and have distinct National characteristics but they have no State
1. The Basques are also nation and have distinct National characteristics but they have no State either
2. The Palestinians are NOT A NATION and have NO distinct National characteristics from the surrounding arabs of which they are part. They speak the same language, eat the same food, etc. The name Palestinians was only adopted by them in 1967. There is No Palestinian Nation nor has there ever been. Etymology and Archeology tell the same story. But they want a state and blackmail the world to get it.

HTH


All true, but maybe I had him with the house? :-)

No Surrender and back to the main fight now for England OK?
Brian of London has been actively occupying a very small slice of hideously over-occupied Tel Aviv since early 2009.


Islam is a giant bungee cord tying it's adherents to the 7th century.
They can pull themselves almost to the twenty first century but eventually the cord tightens and flings them back.
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pyrus
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primalmana108
Nov 23 2010, 10:07 PM
there exists people in the world who consider themselves Palestinians and were people that belonged to a country.
is that also true of, for example, native americans?

the world is littered with former countries or former civilisations

just because some people want to either resurrect an old civilisation, or in the case of so-called 'Palestine', create the country that they think should have been created, does that mean that these people have the right to supplant the current 'occupants'?

(of course, it's supplanting Israel rather than having their own country that supports the 'Palestinians' - it's not about gaining sovereign territory, it's about making sure the jews lose theirs)

((there is no Palestine, there are just people who call themselves Palestinians - the name is inappropriate - they are occupiers of Israeli lands))
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nemisis123456
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I love these threads :D
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primalmana108
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i dont know

so why are they blowing themselves up and at war then ?
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ignominius
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Read the Koran and you'll have the answer
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brianoflondon
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Because Muslims aren't supposed to live as subjects under another religion on "Muslim Land". Israel was once Muslim Land (Dar Al Islam). And what makes it the absolute worst (and why they're so pissed off they literally blow up) is that its the filthy, vile, stinkiest creatures that god made who are now running the place.

But don't worry Spain, when they've got Israel back, you're next.
Edited by brianoflondon, Nov 23 2010, 11:34 PM.
Brian of London has been actively occupying a very small slice of hideously over-occupied Tel Aviv since early 2009.


Islam is a giant bungee cord tying it's adherents to the 7th century.
They can pull themselves almost to the twenty first century but eventually the cord tightens and flings them back.
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tektwo
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As an Ex Israeli Soldier and new member I don't have much impartiality or clout on these boards. But from a purely self interest perspective (EDL and Western Civ), who would you rather see on top in this conflict. A country that supports Western Interests or a nation and culture that wants us back in the stone age.

The start of this conflict is irrelevant now, we are in a clash of ideal's. We are not at war with Religion but with ideology. Palestinians are not the enemy of Israel, Islamic Extremeism is.

We are all fighting the same battles. We all need to stick together.
"The true Islamic concept of peace goes something like this:'Peace comes through submission to Muhammad and his concept of Allah'(i.e. Islam). As such the Islamic concept of peace, meaning making the whole world Muslim, is actually a mandate for war. It was inevitable and unavoidable that the conflict would eventually reach our borders, and so it has." - Vernon Richards

Nizom, Novil, Ne'haveh Dugma VeNenaze'ah - We shall Innovate, Lead, Set an Example and Win. - My Paratrooper Unit Motto
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nemisis123456
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primalmana108
Nov 23 2010, 11:31 PM
i dont know

so why are they blowing themselves up and at war then ?
Because Israel is Islamic WAQF as far as cave dwelling murderers are concerned. The very notion of WAQF gives a religious obligation to Muslims to fight their jihad and claim "back" Muslim land.

This also applies to parts of Europe.

Israel has a right to exist.......

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Fritz
Nov 23 2010, 11:00 PM
2. The Palestinians are NOT A NATION and have NO distinct National characteristics from the surrounding arabs of which they are part. They speak the same language, eat the same food, etc.
I was under the impression that Palestinians and Israelis native of the area were the same race, Semites?
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VillaLoyal
Nov 24 2010, 12:03 AM
Fritz
Nov 23 2010, 11:00 PM
2. The Palestinians are NOT A NATION and have NO distinct National characteristics from the surrounding arabs of which they are part. They speak the same language, eat the same food, etc.
I was under the impression that Palestinians and Israelis native of the area were the same race, Semites?
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pyrus
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primalmana108
Nov 23 2010, 11:31 PM
i dont know

so why are they blowing themselves up and at war then ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VfhK-nTXww
(All about me: http://s1.zetaboards.com/EDL_The_Forum/topic/3771350/)

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Bleeding_Through
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tektwo
Nov 23 2010, 11:39 PM
As an Ex Israeli Soldier and new member I don't have much impartiality or clout on these boards. But from a purely self interest perspective (EDL and Western Civ), who would you rather see on top in this conflict. A country that supports Western Interests or a nation and culture that wants us back in the stone age.

The start of this conflict is irrelevant now, we are in a clash of ideal's. We are not at war with Religion but with ideology. Palestinians are not the enemy of Israel, Islamic Extremeism is.

We are all fighting the same battles. We all need to stick together.
Go to ramallah at night. Plenty of bars, palestinian christians and plenty of very moderate palestinians, just wanting to go about their business. Many of whom within the west bank in particular, believe in co-existance. I think partially it has become a war of ideology, particularly with Iran backed Hamas. But now what we can see is a split between Palestinians, in the moderate and extreme.
Would like to add, there is also a very hostile and extremist Jews in Israel and West Bank territories, mainly known as the settlers. If anyone cares to you tube "hebron settlers" you can see for yourselves. These people dislike christians just as much as muslims. The whole situation is a very complex and messed up one. As someone mentioned the red indians, they for example can't just start holy war against the U.S.A to get the land back, as its too late now. What does make it even more complex for the holy land, as it was under several rules including British and Ottoman rule. But those that claim there was no state of Palestine are wrong. Although under British rule, the state was known as Palestine, and was mainly inhabited by arabs (including jewish and christian arabs). Its like if one day the Italians came to England and said "we were here first in the Roman times get out." Then maybe give us the north east and south west to live in. We would be pretty pissed off. To deny that it is purely an ideological war is false in my opinion, territory has alot to do with it. But I myself cannot deny that ideology is now a big part of it. Unfortunately alot of Arab politicians particularly those with extremist views, mix islam with politics, which is like mixing petrol with fire. Would like to say just like I did on the other thread, any form of killing Israeli Civilians is wrong, it can never be right, never ever ever. But we also have to realise wrong has been done to the palestinians too. Perhaps us as living in England can make our own minds up, but its not as black and white as many make out. The situation is incredibly complex on many different levels.
One final note, if you ever speak to a Palestinian with connection to the Fatah political group, you will learn they hate islamic extremism and Hamas, more than the Israelis do. You never see the palestinian authority recipricating gestures from Iran for example. The PA- openly condemed 9/11 and 7/7. However one cannot deny that they arent too fond of the Israelis either, but at least are willing to go to the table, and arent shooting rockets onto peoples houses.
One final note, if you ever speak to a Palestinian with connection to the Fatah political group, you will learn they hate islamic extremism and Hamas, more than the Israelis do. You never see the palestinian authority recipricating gestures from Iran for example. The PA- openly condemed 9/11 and 7/7. However one cannot deny that they arent too fond of the Israelis either, but at least are willing to go to the table, and arent shooting rockets onto peoples houses.
Edited by Bleeding_Through, Nov 24 2010, 09:30 AM.
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Might enlighten certain people on this thread.

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

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Bleeding_Through
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Shelfside
Nov 24 2010, 10:27 AM
Might enlighten certain people on this thread.

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

to be fair. Pretty reasonable summary of the situation. I think a key part what was mentioned is that history is viewed differently dependent on perception. The whole situation is pretty fcuked up. I think the only way is a two state solution, which is agreed upon by most people except extreme muslims and extremist jews. The only problem is, even the moderates on both sides can't agree. My head hurts after reading all that. The strange thing is, the jews are themselves a divided nation just as the palestinians are divided. How on earth will this mess ever be sorted.
That is agree on the finer points of an agreement. So you have people on both sides that dont want to get around the peace table. And those that do can't agree.
Edited by Bleeding_Through, Nov 24 2010, 11:24 AM.
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brianoflondon
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Just an observation and you won't read this very widely about Israel because on the whole the media (even in Israel) is shockingly bad at measuring the mood of Israelis. While everyone still talks up a two state solution, the mere fact that people have stopped calling Eldad (who's hosting the event to talk about Jordan being THE second state) a complete loony tells you that many have realised it's not coming soon.

Of course it would be nice to have two states side by side in peace and blah blah blah but we look over the other side and see streets and squares being named after people who murdered children. Sure they back down when the world notices but 10 mins later when you're all watching X factor they're doing it again. I honestly prefer Hamas to Fatah: Hamas are intellectually honest and honorable. Their charter is pretty clear and they stick to it.

It's fine to believe in a two state solution if it gives you comfort, who am I to tell you Santa doesn't exist? Just know that he's not coming down the chimney this year, next year or probably for at least the next two generations of Palestinian children educated by Abbas and his cronies.
Edited by brianoflondon, Nov 24 2010, 11:42 AM.
Brian of London has been actively occupying a very small slice of hideously over-occupied Tel Aviv since early 2009.


Islam is a giant bungee cord tying it's adherents to the 7th century.
They can pull themselves almost to the twenty first century but eventually the cord tightens and flings them back.
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primalmana108
Nov 23 2010, 10:07 PM
Obviously OP doesn't understand nationalism and identity. it is irrelevant what we think is a nationality or identity, there exists people in the world who consider themselves Palestinians and were people that belonged to a country.

How can they be wrong ?
I consider myself a Meccan pagan idol worshipper.

How can I be wrong?

btw, can I have my Ka'bba back please? ;)
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pyrus
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Bleeding_Through
Nov 24 2010, 09:18 AM
But those that claim there was no state of Palestine are wrong.
I think the point is that there was not anything like the likes of Hamas want to create - as you said, even if a 'Palestinian' state were possible, it wouldn't be a restoration, as there have always been overlapping and competing claims to the land

I think that regardless of the history, regardless of the competing claims of the Israelis and the so-called 'Palestinians', the two-state solution is not going to work

Even if it did, one day, the road to get there would be far too long and bloody

Better to side with Israel now - reclaim the land piece by piece, and exile the rebels - end the war by eventually allowing one side to be victorious - the one side that's a friendly western democracy, and not a breeding ground for genocidal extremism (regardless of whether there actually a large number of 'moderates')
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KELTICBROTHER
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palestine is surrounded by rich arab nations
why dont they put a few quid in and help them with a few hospitals and stuff
or does it help their agenda to let the world see the palenstinians suffer
the americans give them loads .and they still hate the yanks
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primalmana108
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this is 'opinion presented as fact'
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BlueStar
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Militant Islam preaches ideological hatred of Jews and kuffar and global territorial expansion under Muslim rule.

There is no rational or cuddly peace and harmony compromise possible with Islam. Islam is not based on rationality nor does it favour compromise at all except as a temporary and staged means to achieve its own global hegemony.

Israel lives in a very tough neighbourhood. Islam wants to destroy Israel completely - it does not want to live side by side in peaceful compromise with it but to utterly wipe it and its culture from the face of the Earth.

The good thing in Israel's favour is that it knows this and takes action accordingly. It does so by celebrating and taking enormous pride in its cultural identity.

We too should take action accordingly.

Bleeding heart liberals who persist in seeking an amicable settlement in this matter and/or seek to accomodate militant Islam in our own country might just as well wish that Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy really existed because they're living in complete denial as to the brutal nature of the ideology that is militant Islam.

We can see that our country is changing around us. The only way to de-tooth militant Islam is to recognise and constantly point out its innate and unchangeable reality as a fascistic dogma and to be proud and vigilant in defence of our own indigenous English/western culture and heritage.

Not all cultures have the same worth. English/western culture is vastly superior in every possible way to the cruel backward culture that is militant Islam. We must shout this from the rooftops.

Once militant Islam gains a secure toe-hold in a free society its rapid demographic expansion nearly always ends up radically transforming such society from within.

If we are not constantly vigilant ourselves many will one day wake up and feel strangers in their own country - some already feel that way now.

There are notable historical exceptions - Spain rose up and overcame the widespread Islamisation of its country.

Israel presently stands up as a beacon of democracy and western values - despite the universal hatred of its jihadi neighbours.

The capital of the Christian Byzantine Empire, Constantinople, however, failed to withstand the constant jihadi onslaught against it and, as a result, the richness and complexity of its centuries old civilisation disappeared overnight. The fate of Constantinople, as we know was to be re-named as Istanbul.

If the fate of London is not eventually to be re-named as Londonistan I think we have to try to renew and revive a culture of patriotism in this country. Perhaps we should take a note out of Israel's book and be less tolerant towards those who would seek to undermine and relativise our culture in comparison to the vastly inferior ideology they would have us submit to.

The EDL at least provides us with an ideal opportunity to openly and often celebrate our English culture and heritage. Such celebration in and of itself pro-actively creates a strong challenge and counter-point to Islamo-Fascism whenever it dares to rear its ugly head.





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tektwo
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Bleeding_Through
Nov 24 2010, 09:18 AM
tektwo
Nov 23 2010, 11:39 PM
As an Ex Israeli Soldier and new member I don't have much impartiality or clout on these boards. But from a purely self interest perspective (EDL and Western Civ), who would you rather see on top in this conflict. A country that supports Western Interests or a nation and culture that wants us back in the stone age.

The start of this conflict is irrelevant now, we are in a clash of ideal's. We are not at war with Religion but with ideology. Palestinians are not the enemy of Israel, Islamic Extremeism is.

We are all fighting the same battles. We all need to stick together.
Go to ramallah at night. Plenty of bars, palestinian christians and plenty of very moderate palestinians, just wanting to go about their business. Many of whom within the west bank in particular, believe in co-existance. I think partially it has become a war of ideology, particularly with Iran backed Hamas. But now what we can see is a split between Palestinians, in the moderate and extreme.
Would like to add, there is also a very hostile and extremist Jews in Israel and West Bank territories, mainly known as the settlers. If anyone cares to you tube "hebron settlers" you can see for yourselves. These people dislike christians just as much as muslims. The whole situation is a very complex and messed up one. As someone mentioned the red indians, they for example can't just start holy war against the U.S.A to get the land back, as its too late now. What does make it even more complex for the holy land, as it was under several rules including British and Ottoman rule. But those that claim there was no state of Palestine are wrong. Although under British rule, the state was known as Palestine, and was mainly inhabited by arabs (including jewish and christian arabs). Its like if one day the Italians came to England and said "we were here first in the Roman times get out." Then maybe give us the north east and south west to live in. We would be pretty pissed off. To deny that it is purely an ideological war is false in my opinion, territory has alot to do with it. But I myself cannot deny that ideology is now a big part of it. Unfortunately alot of Arab politicians particularly those with extremist views, mix islam with politics, which is like mixing petrol with fire. Would like to say just like I did on the other thread, any form of killing Israeli Civilians is wrong, it can never be right, never ever ever. But we also have to realise wrong has been done to the palestinians too. Perhaps us as living in England can make our own minds up, but its not as black and white as many make out. The situation is incredibly complex on many different levels.
One final note, if you ever speak to a Palestinian with connection to the Fatah political group, you will learn they hate islamic extremism and Hamas, more than the Israelis do. You never see the palestinian authority recipricating gestures from Iran for example. The PA- openly condemed 9/11 and 7/7. However one cannot deny that they arent too fond of the Israelis either, but at least are willing to go to the table, and arent shooting rockets onto peoples houses.
One final note, if you ever speak to a Palestinian with connection to the Fatah political group, you will learn they hate islamic extremism and Hamas, more than the Israelis do. You never see the palestinian authority recipricating gestures from Iran for example. The PA- openly condemed 9/11 and 7/7. However one cannot deny that they arent too fond of the Israelis either, but at least are willing to go to the table, and arent shooting rockets onto peoples houses.
I have worked very closely with the Palestinian Authority during my military career. I believe in a two state solution, I believe that the settler's are wrong and that Israel cannot win this through force alone.

With that said you will find settlers who dislike Christians as much as they do Muslims, I have talked to them as well. Most of them are from Europe who felt like they were turned on by Europe. Some are just racist... Every culture has people who dislike other people, it is only human nature.

Fatah is a different group now then it was under Arafat. It is much different after the split with Hamas. People in the West Bank are more prosperous than most of the Middle East countries in the are. They get a ton of money from both Israel and the US.

Israel supplies Fatah with all it's weapon's, vehicles, uniforms, equipment and even training. I should know, I have done a lot of this training.

The Israeli people would knock these settlers out of the West Bank If they felt they had a serious partner for peace. The Palestinians have had many chances, and yes of course that sounds biased, but I have lived through it. Have you?

Israel is a nation surrounded by people who wish to destroy it... If you had rocket's, missiles and suicide bombers blowing you up would you respond tit for tat? Or would you level the perpetrators?

It's easy to be in another country and see these things on the news and think Israel is being to harsh, but try living under that stress, try seeing your kids living under that stress. You would not be happy and you would not be kind and politically correct.

Remember up until a few years ago the Palestinian authority was blowing up Israeli's also. It's only after Israel gutted the organization that this stopped.

Also, believe you me that if the shoe was on the other foot and the Palestinians had this supperiority over the Jews do you think they would be as kind? Have they been kind in the rest of the world? Have they even been kind to there own people?

History has taught Israel and Jew's lesson's, I only ask that you understand these lesson's and try to understand where we come from.
"The true Islamic concept of peace goes something like this:'Peace comes through submission to Muhammad and his concept of Allah'(i.e. Islam). As such the Islamic concept of peace, meaning making the whole world Muslim, is actually a mandate for war. It was inevitable and unavoidable that the conflict would eventually reach our borders, and so it has." - Vernon Richards

Nizom, Novil, Ne'haveh Dugma VeNenaze'ah - We shall Innovate, Lead, Set an Example and Win. - My Paratrooper Unit Motto
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From Melanie Phillips
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Israel's false friend
Wednesday, 24th November 2010

The Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne, is one of a (small) minority of Conservative Cabinet ministers – let alone if you include the LibDems in the Coalition – who is a staunch Atlanticist and well-disposed towards Israel. It is an open secret that his hawkish views on foreign affairs do not coincide with those of David Cameron. So it was to be expected that, as the guest of honour at the annual dinner of the Board of Deputies of British Jews last night, he would present himself as a friend of Israel. And he acordingly declared that Britain was a friend of Israel.

Methinks he did protest far too much. For his speech was full of easy platitudes. It was a kind of check-list of all the buttons that he knew he had to press to curry favour with that audience.

And then there was this

Like many, many people in this room we want to see the Israeli Government negotiate peace, and we urge upon them an end to settlement building, and an opening up of Gaza.

This paragraph negates Osborne’s professions of friendship and shows them to be cynical and false. The implication was that the Israelis were the ones preventing those negotiations – one of the great canards of the day. The fact is that you can’t negotiate peace unless there’s someone who wants to negotiate it with you. But the Palestinians don’t want peace with Israel. They want peace in place of Israel. They don’t want a two-state solution; if they did, there would be peace between two states tomorrow. Since the 1920s the Arab line has remained consistent: they want one state and Israel gone.

Recent polling bears this out: distressingly, a majority of the Palestinians support a two state solution but only as a route to one Arab state – in other words, Yasser Arafat’s genocidal ‘strategy of stages’ -- and two thirds do not accept that the Jews have the right to a state of their own. In other words, they want Israel gone.

Indeed, Mahmoud Aabbas has said repeatedly he will never recognise Israel as a Jewish state. It follows therefore that he remains intent on destroying it. That’s why his Palestinian Authority is still teaching Palestinian children to hate and to kill Jews. That’s why, only a few days ago, the PA published a ‘study’ saying the Western Wall of King Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem has nothing to do with the Jews but was always Muslim, claiming that not one stone dates from the time of King Solomon.

This is of course totally absurd, not least because evidence is being excavated in Jerusalem all the time dating back to the time of Solomon, David and other Jewish kings centuries before Islam was invented. The PA is constantly trying to deny evidence of the Temple because it give the lie to its wholly mendacious assertion that the Jews do not possess the sole historic claim to the land of Israel. This ‘study’ should therefore be bracketed with that other notable Palestinian contribution to scholarship, Mahmoud Abbas’s own doctoral thesis which denied the Holocaust.

So how can Israel possibly negotiate ‘peace’? The entire ‘peace process’ is a sick farce. Since it is patently not within Israel’s power to negotiate ‘peace’ with an enemy still hell-bent on destroying its very existence, the pressure on Israel to do so is actually pressure to surrender to genocidal violence and blackmail. This is the import of what George Osborne, friend of Israel, has said.

Next he urged on Israel canard number two: an end to settlement building. The British government holds that the settlements and the ‘occupation’ are illegal. This is totally untrue. The idea that if settlement building ceases, peace will be forthcoming is ludicrous. Even when settlement building stopped for almost a year, Abbas refused tro negotiate. When the settlers were forcibly removed from Gaza, the Palestinians did not start to build their state but responded by firing thousands of rockets at Israel. When more than 90 per cent of those territories was offered to the Palestinians to form a state of their own, they launched their terrorist ‘intifada’. The settlements are merely the stick being used by the Arabs, their patsy Obama and the enemies of Israel to destroy Israel. This is the import of the position that George Osborne, friend of Israel, has taken.

Worse even that that was his remark than he wants to see Israel ‘opening up Gaza’. First of all, the border with Gaza that really is sealed is the one controlled by Egypt; Israel lets through into Gaza thousands of tonnes of supplies every week. Gaza is only ‘closed’ by Israel to prevent arms and missiles from being brought in. So it follows that anyone who urges ‘opening up Gaza’ is urging that Israel should no longer be able to prevent arms and missiles from being imported into Gaza, thus exposing its citizens to the certainty of further and far greater carnage.

In other words, it should not be allowed to defend itself. And a country that cannot defend itself cannot survive against its enemies.

This is the import of what George Osborne, friend of Israel, has said. And then he dared wrap himself in the mantle of Israeli victims of Palestinian terrorist murder in order to protect himself from the disgusting import of the line he was parrotting.

Compare this speech with the magnificent one made by Canada’s Prime Minister Stephen Harper a week or so ago, in which he explictly linked the demonisation of Israel to the rise in Jew-hatred across the world and stated unequivocally that he stood with Israel against its enemies even at the expense of Canada's interests at the UN. That’s what a true friend of Israel says.

Whether or not Osborne actually believes the line he was mouthing last night, Britain is now a false friend of Israel -- and stands as a result on the wrong side of history.
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lionsingh
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"Whether or not Osborne actually believes the line he was mouthing last night, Britain is now a false friend of Israel -- and stands as a result on the wrong side of history."

NOT a very nice think to say about the UK !!
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lancashirelad
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Great Britain is what am concerned about, as for the middle east they should get it sorted once and for all, stop tip toeing around dragging it out, getting everyone else involved.
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Bleeding_Through
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tektwo
Nov 25 2010, 05:20 AM
Bleeding_Through
Nov 24 2010, 09:18 AM
tektwo
Nov 23 2010, 11:39 PM
As an Ex Israeli Soldier and new member I don't have much impartiality or clout on these boards. But from a purely self interest perspective (EDL and Western Civ), who would you rather see on top in this conflict. A country that supports Western Interests or a nation and culture that wants us back in the stone age.

The start of this conflict is irrelevant now, we are in a clash of ideal's. We are not at war with Religion but with ideology. Palestinians are not the enemy of Israel, Islamic Extremeism is.

We are all fighting the same battles. We all need to stick together.
Go to ramallah at night. Plenty of bars, palestinian christians and plenty of very moderate palestinians, just wanting to go about their business. Many of whom within the west bank in particular, believe in co-existance. I think partially it has become a war of ideology, particularly with Iran backed Hamas. But now what we can see is a split between Palestinians, in the moderate and extreme.
Would like to add, there is also a very hostile and extremist Jews in Israel and West Bank territories, mainly known as the settlers. If anyone cares to you tube "hebron settlers" you can see for yourselves. These people dislike christians just as much as muslims. The whole situation is a very complex and messed up one. As someone mentioned the red indians, they for example can't just start holy war against the U.S.A to get the land back, as its too late now. What does make it even more complex for the holy land, as it was under several rules including British and Ottoman rule. But those that claim there was no state of Palestine are wrong. Although under British rule, the state was known as Palestine, and was mainly inhabited by arabs (including jewish and christian arabs). Its like if one day the Italians came to England and said "we were here first in the Roman times get out." Then maybe give us the north east and south west to live in. We would be pretty pissed off. To deny that it is purely an ideological war is false in my opinion, territory has alot to do with it. But I myself cannot deny that ideology is now a big part of it. Unfortunately alot of Arab politicians particularly those with extremist views, mix islam with politics, which is like mixing petrol with fire. Would like to say just like I did on the other thread, any form of killing Israeli Civilians is wrong, it can never be right, never ever ever. But we also have to realise wrong has been done to the palestinians too. Perhaps us as living in England can make our own minds up, but its not as black and white as many make out. The situation is incredibly complex on many different levels.
One final note, if you ever speak to a Palestinian with connection to the Fatah political group, you will learn they hate islamic extremism and Hamas, more than the Israelis do. You never see the palestinian authority recipricating gestures from Iran for example. The PA- openly condemed 9/11 and 7/7. However one cannot deny that they arent too fond of the Israelis either, but at least are willing to go to the table, and arent shooting rockets onto peoples houses.
One final note, if you ever speak to a Palestinian with connection to the Fatah political group, you will learn they hate islamic extremism and Hamas, more than the Israelis do. You never see the palestinian authority recipricating gestures from Iran for example. The PA- openly condemed 9/11 and 7/7. However one cannot deny that they arent too fond of the Israelis either, but at least are willing to go to the table, and arent shooting rockets onto peoples houses.
I have worked very closely with the Palestinian Authority during my military career. I believe in a two state solution, I believe that the settler's are wrong and that Israel cannot win this through force alone.

With that said you will find settlers who dislike Christians as much as they do Muslims, I have talked to them as well. Most of them are from Europe who felt like they were turned on by Europe. Some are just racist... Every culture has people who dislike other people, it is only human nature.

Fatah is a different group now then it was under Arafat. It is much different after the split with Hamas. People in the West Bank are more prosperous than most of the Middle East countries in the are. They get a ton of money from both Israel and the US.

Israel supplies Fatah with all it's weapon's, vehicles, uniforms, equipment and even training. I should know, I have done a lot of this training.

The Israeli people would knock these settlers out of the West Bank If they felt they had a serious partner for peace. The Palestinians have had many chances, and yes of course that sounds biased, but I have lived through it. Have you?

Israel is a nation surrounded by people who wish to destroy it... If you had rocket's, missiles and suicide bombers blowing you up would you respond tit for tat? Or would you level the perpetrators?

It's easy to be in another country and see these things on the news and think Israel is being to harsh, but try living under that stress, try seeing your kids living under that stress. You would not be happy and you would not be kind and politically correct.

Remember up until a few years ago the Palestinian authority was blowing up Israeli's also. It's only after Israel gutted the organization that this stopped.

Also, believe you me that if the shoe was on the other foot and the Palestinians had this supperiority over the Jews do you think they would be as kind? Have they been kind in the rest of the world? Have they even been kind to there own people?

History has taught Israel and Jew's lesson's, I only ask that you understand these lesson's and try to understand where we come from.
Your view is quite fair, and I would say I agree with most of what you say. In fact from relatives I have in the West Bank, they are far from poor and generally have no ill will towards Jews. In fact the majority of them speak hebrew and do business with Israeli's. Their main problem is the settlers. As one day a group of them may just pull up in a car drunk and shoot up something. I agree completely about fatah and the shift after Arafat, I would also say the general population in the West Bank also.

The improved standard of living and relative peaceful situation does help also I feel, to try and bring normality to their lives. One issue with Fatah however, is they are still corrupt. Ive heard many a rumour about them stealing money from public funds, and there was one about how they all bought new mercs for the mp's while the people were literally starving. I think one of the reasons many voted Hamas in the elections. And I can agree with you in that If I was an Israeli, and someone killed my family in a car bomb, I would harbour hate and revenge, to say I woudlnt would be a lie.

Would also agree that history has taught Jews a lesson, and as someone one said "if the jews came out with guns from the very beginning, maybe the holocaust may not of happened." Those that came out with banners saying "hitler was right" were a disgrace. Same with the bnp denying the holocaust. But at times it seems the Israelis are merely repeating history in some of the questionable actions they have taken. But as I said previously the whole situation is too complex to be viewed as black and white or wrong and right.

I think a two state solution can work and I feel due to the current situation it is the only solution. Its either that or 1 Israeli state occupied by Israelis, or 1 state occupied solely by Palestinians. But the concept of that even if it ever became a reality would be so difficult to uphold. I dont think a two state solution will come now or in the next 50 or 60 years. But I hope in this time the palestinians and the muslim world in fact, finds their way. Or at least a way to operate in a modern world. Radical Islam is the number 1 threat to the entire globe and to muslims themselves. I would hope the likes of hamas and hizbollah etc would be wiped off the face of the planet one day.
Would also like to add, that in alot of these arab countries there is alot of indoctrination from being young. Alot of these kids are taught to hate jews, and that are indocrinated about Islam from the very beginning. Ask a small arab child if they like jews, the answer would most likely be no. Many an adult Muslim cannot comprehend the idea of darwinism or evolution. The idea to them seems absurd. They are taught from birth, "god made this god did that etc." Luckily in the west most of us are left to make up are own minds. Unfortunately Islamic schools set to destroy this process of free thought. Personally I dont agree with anyform of religious school. But its best we leave that one for another time.
Edited by Bleeding_Through, Nov 25 2010, 11:50 AM.
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lionsingh
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Spot the differnce between Nazis and nice Palistinians

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gzyeo1Z1I4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM0ZD6XfTfg&feature=related
Edited by lionsingh, Nov 25 2010, 12:11 PM.
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