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The Offence Test
Topic Started: Oct 25 2010, 10:43 PM (220 Views)
Quiet_Man
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Kafir
Good article in the Canada Free Press

Quote:
 
"For Muslims, the Offence Test will serve to determine, whether they can live outside the Muslim world. For now, they are failing the test, and failing it badly. Muslim immigration has not spread tolerance, but intolerance, not love but fear, and not knowledge, but ignorance. It is up to Muslims themselves to reverse that trend, by either passing the Offence Test and proving that they can tolerate being offended by the variety of views and images in a multicultural society, or disengaging from a non-Muslim world whose freedoms and perspectives they cannot learn to tolerate. The choice is simple enough, and the choice is theirs"


It's a damned good read
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”

George Orwell
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Deleted User
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There are so many things that offend Muslims that it's impossible for them to remain in the West and not be permanently enraged, as the following list shows: http://amboytimes.typepad.com/the_amboy_times/2007/02/the_list_of_thi.html
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NickM
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If one thinks about how a free society operates, then clearly the idea that someone being offended by something said by another person cannot serve as a criteria for the state (as John Stuart Mill put it) visiting harm upon an individual.

Here's a slightly different way of looking at this: I've just been watching an excellent American TV series called 'The Cleaner'. It's about a guy who helps addicts. Anyway, you'd better believe that almost every addict will be 'offended' by someone else telling them that the principles they live their life by are poisonous, and that the way they're living is harmful to themselves and to the people around them. They'll rant and rave, and think (and say) how dare this person say something like that to me? Who do they think they are, telling me that my life's based on lies and deception, and that all I can ever do if I keep this up is hurt people and damage everything around me?

I know. I've sat there and had someone tell me that. I didn't like it one bit. But I can tell you now, more than ten years later, that the guy who said that to me was telling me the truth, and he did me the biggest favour anyone ever could. The truth matters. And even if you're 'offended' when you hear it, that's too bad. Sometimes you need to hear the truth, and that's all there is about it.

One of the things sometimes said about the EDL and like groups/bloggers etc is that they are somehow (it's never clearly stated, this) against all Muslims. In my own opinion, nothing could be further from the truth. Human beings who happen to be 'Muslims' are in many ways like human beings who happend to be 'addicts'. Both need to hear the truth, and their being 'offended' by it is neither here nor there. The disctinction between the doctrines of Islam and the human beings who have to live according to those teachings could not be clearer. I would like the doctrine - the teachings of Islam to be found in a set of books (and that's all it is) to be examined, discussed and criticised - in accordance with the principles found in John Stuart Mill's 'On Liberty' and if any Muslims who are willing to engage in that discussion find themselves offended by what's said, I care not a jot! It could certainly be argued that they are religious 'addicts' and just like anyone else suffering from an addiction, they need to be told the facts of life.

For their own good, and for the good of everyone around them. Now if one takes that on board, and thinks about that analogy, how on earth could anyone persist in saying that someone engaged in that project is 'anti-Muslim' or whatever? No one would say that someone working in a rehab facility is 'anti-addict'. Obviously they'd be understood by all and sundry to be helping the human beings who come through their doors. They want them to understand that their 'stinking thinking' has got them into trouble, is harmful to everyone and is ultimately based on bullsh1t. They'll walk out of there 30 days later with a chance to live a happy, healthy life as a normal human being.

If you're helping someone who's suffering from an addiction, whether it's drug based, alcohol based or religion based, then to say that makes you 'against addicts' or even that you're a 'racist' is obviously the height of absurdity. By telling someone else the truth (to the best of your ability) in order to give them the opportunity to live a better life, you are helping them. And that's the name of the game here.
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waspish
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A brilliant post... but sureley it would have been much easier to post a list of things that DONT offend muslims, this would be covered in three words OTHER MALE MUSLIMS simplz.
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AQH
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Cool link from Bamiyan, excellent post NickM..
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leicester-lad
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waspish
Oct 26 2010, 01:44 PM
A brilliant post... but sureley it would have been much easier to post a list of things that DONT offend muslims, this would be covered in three words OTHER MALE MUSLIMS simplz.
allah
halal
other muslims

thats about it :D
RANGERS F.C
CHELSEA F.C
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Deleted User
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and killing people.
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Wigone
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SOmetimes other muslims do offend them if they aren't muslim enough.
They don't like it up 'em.
Don't tell them your name Pike.
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1Pat
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The more that offends Islam the more Islam offends.
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truplayaz
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They are also offended amongst them selves... the 100's plus sects


Then you have the huge division of sunni, shia, , sufi , aymedia (hoever u spell it)

The truth is if they ever conquer the world, which will not happen... their will never be peace even still.

as they will fight amongst them selves. mohammed had said out of 73 sects only 1 sect will be accepted to their paradise :D and they dont know which one it is... :D

That is why their so many mosques getting bombed in pakistan, they fight their own brothers, but different sect divisions...etc
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TodeSLichT
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@NickM - welcome to the forum! A triumphant post as well! Spot on there.
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NickM
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Well, thank you. It wasn't a bad effort for ten to four in the morning! I really think that's a useful way to frame the project though. If you're helping the human being before you who is suffering from the strange malady that we've been taught to call 'Islam' then you're not against the person, you're for the person.

The more I look around at what's happening just now, the more I'm beginning to think that the first obstacle before the EDL, Pamela Geller et al is the way the media and the state are behaving towards the truth. The media talk about the EDL, those are the words in the article, but I think that their real problem is the truth. Real life. They just can't deal with it, and want to silence anyone who even suggests that there is a reality beyond their politically-driven worldview.

I tend to take for granted that people rely on the truth, and that the truth has value. And in real life, that is indeed the case. I worked as an engineer for several years, and if I went out to a job, I needed the truth to do my job. Actual facts. I couldn't make up a theory and pretend that was the problem. If the facts said otherwise, then after I'd implemented my made-up theory, the engine in front of me still wouldn't run! I could push the started button and turn it over a much as I liked. In real life, the truth matters. We couldn't do our jobs or live our lives without it.

The arguments John Stuart Mill presents in 'On Liberty' in favour of thought and expressioin are embedded into my thinking. I spent a fair bit of time studying that particular text at university. My background in engineering gives me a understanding of the world that relies on the truth, then. The world can't work without it. And my later studies of Mill gave me an understanding of how important the freedom of thought and expression is in the pursuit of truth.

The people trying to discredit the EDL and Pamela Geller however, seem to have no understanding of these basic concepts. Every one of us who actually goes out and works for a living knows perfectly well how important the truth is. We all rely on it to do our jobs. To actually get things done. This doesn't happen with journalists though. They can produce an article every day, get a pat on the back from their editor, and go home at the end of the month with their wages, without ever relying on the truth. And as anyone familiar with Mill would tell you, that mindset, especially within the 'free press' is not only damaging to the individuals afflicted by it (and it is), it will damage the society in which we all live.

So maybe we need to clear the ground first. Okay the EDL, Pamela Geller et al have something to say, and there are truths that we think need to be expressed here. But maybe, first of all, we need to remind people of why free speech is a good thing.
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