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| Islamicsm; Islamicsm, Islamists, Islamism – SYMANTECS | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 18 2010, 09:29 PM (221 Views) | |
| albionuk | Oct 18 2010, 09:29 PM Post #1 |
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I note that on the EDL web site it talks about Islamic Imperialism, Islamists and Islamism. I have never heard the terms Islamists and Islamism before and presumed that the EDL had made up these words. A google search of these words reveals that they do exist along with Islamicism. How long these words have existed and who made them up I don’t know. There is only one Islam, there are no shades or variants, there is just Islam and it is NOT ‘moderate’. If there is someone here who doesn’t know that and who has any evidence or argument that says otherwise please tell me about it? It seems to me that the words Islamist etc., have been invented by someone hoping that they convince others that there are two interpretation of Islam, a moderate one and an extreme one, if that is the case show me the moderate one? The point I'm trying to make is that Islam is Islamist and Islamism, the latter two words are redundant so why were they invented? I can only conclude that these words were invented because some Muslim hopes that there are two interpretations of Islam or some non Muslim hopes that there are two interpretations or is too frightened to proffer the suggestion that Islam is – what it is. Edited by albionuk, Oct 18 2010, 09:43 PM.
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| 1Pat | Oct 18 2010, 09:51 PM Post #2 |
Kafir
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"Islam is Islamist and Islamism" to every EDL their simply all cnuts. |
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| Deleted User | Oct 19 2010, 05:38 AM Post #3 |
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It used to confuse the fcuk out of me too, but I think it goes a little something like this...
... Basically, Islam is at war with the infidels in 'Dar al-Harb' - no matter how Politically Correct the media try to put it - and the people who feel that they are commanded to do so, are Muslim. I personally believe that there are some people who know fcuk all about Islam, have never read any of the Qur'an, and have no plans to, but - for some reason - they choose to refer to themselves as "Muslim". These people are not really Muslims, they are Agnostics. |
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| lan-astaslem | Oct 19 2010, 06:30 AM Post #4 |
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Islam is islam the rest is how we in the west like to think about islam Any Mohammedan will tell you that islam is islam |
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“One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory.” – Houari (Mohamed) Boumedienne, President of Algeria, 1965 – 1978, in a 1974 speech at the UN
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| brianoflondon | Oct 19 2010, 06:42 AM Post #5 |
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I'm with Lan, vast array of pointless terms to confuse and confound the misinformed multitudes. |
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Brian of London has been actively occupying a very small slice of hideously over-occupied Tel Aviv since early 2009. Islam is a giant bungee cord tying it's adherents to the 7th century. They can pull themselves almost to the twenty first century but eventually the cord tightens and flings them back. | |
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| lan-astaslem | Oct 19 2010, 07:04 AM Post #6 |
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Islam thrives on confusion and chaos Thailand is a good example Edited by lan-astaslem, Oct 19 2010, 07:11 AM.
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“One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory.” – Houari (Mohamed) Boumedienne, President of Algeria, 1965 – 1978, in a 1974 speech at the UN
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| albionuk | Oct 19 2010, 11:58 AM Post #7 |
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I agree with all the comments posted here. I can only reiterate what I said above, I understand why some Muslims might invents words in the hope that there are two interpretations of Islam and why some ignorant non Muslims might do the same, what I can’t understand is why the EDL shies away from the fact that there is only one Islam and it is Islamist, Islamicism, Islamism; it’s all the same thing the latter three expressions are simply a smoke screen. Why are the EDL using these words, who are we trying to protect? |
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| ignominius | Oct 19 2010, 12:09 PM Post #8 |
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Infidel
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As I see it...Islam is Islam. However, a muslim that just wants to be part of society , worship allah in his own particular way, but has no interest in imposing Islam on the rest of us ...then there are those muslims that wish to impose islam on us are Islamists. The problem is that we confuse being muslim with Islam. The two are related and mutually dependent, but there are shades of muslim but only one black and white Islam. Islam is the universal constant...muslims are variables. I hope that makes some sense |
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| Deleted User | Oct 19 2010, 12:16 PM Post #9 |
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Islamism is a very important word. There is a distinct difference between Islam and Islamism. The former is the religion itself practiced by Muslims. Islamism is effectively using jihad and stealth jihad to impose Islam on an unwilling population and aims for a world caliphate. It is very important to distinguish the difference between the two and to use the word Islamism. As nobody can argue against you if you say you are against being forced into a Muslim caliphate against your wishes. However if you say that you're against Islam and by association, against Muslims, you're on a sticky wicket. It may seem subtle to some, but there is a very big difference. Islamism is not a new word, it's been used for some time. This article is over 12 years old. http://www.danielpipes.org/954/distinguishing-between-islam-and-islamism |
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| albionuk | Oct 19 2010, 12:41 PM Post #10 |
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Taking aside the hadith, sunnah and any other difficult baggage, as a minimum, to call yourself Muslim, you must believe that the Qu’ran is the immutable word of God and you must believe that for every word in the Qu’ran. Consequently every Muslim is, by definition, is Islamist. For a Muslim not to be defined in terms of Islamist they must say something like “I believe that the Qu’ran is the word of God and that if I do not adhere to it’s teachings I will fry in hell but I choose not to adhere and will take my chances.” That would (IMHO) opinion reduce the worlds population of 2 billion Muslims down to 2 dozen. |
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| Deleted User | Oct 19 2010, 01:12 PM Post #11 |
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If you say you are against Islam/Muslims, you then go on the backfoot having to defend yourself. If you say you are against Islamism, then it is very hard to argue against that. Why give yourself the extra work, don't give the Marxists/Muslims extra ammunition. |
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| Deleted User | Oct 19 2010, 01:41 PM Post #12 |
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Agree with Road hog, it's a trap set by the left, if you are against Islam then you are against all Muslims, which is seen as being extreme. Arthur. |
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| dave34 | Oct 19 2010, 04:25 PM Post #13 |
Newbie
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It is always important to acknowledge not everyone who calls themselves a muslim is going to go through the Koran play by play but adhering to what is in the Koran is what being a muslim is. As far as i can tell what the west calls "radical Islam","Islamism","militant Islam","Islamic extremism","political Islam",or "Wahhabism" is muslims following exactly what is in the Koran,and these phrases allow us to cling onto the "minority of violent extremists who have hijacked a peaceful religion" fantasy. |
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| albionuk | Oct 25 2010, 08:58 PM Post #14 |
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I hear what you say and understand where you are coming from but I am not sure it is sustainable. At some point in time this question must reach centre stage and someone must sit across the desk from a Muslim and say “we are against militant Islam and only militant Islam and we want to support moderate Muslims purge Britain of militant Muslims.” What follows will be a debate and I don’t believe it is possible to sustain an argument that asks Muslims to not follow the Qu’ran i.e. be moderate. Has anyone from EDL joined a Muslim forum as a member of EDL and posted the policy of EDL as something like “we are against militant Islam and only militant Islam and want to support moderate Muslims purge Britain of militant Muslims” and been able to carry that debate forward to anything like any kind of success? Why don’t you try it and see what response you get? Of course you will get the vitriol but you will learn a lot. Before you ask – why don’t I try it, I would love to (I really would) but I have been or am a member of most of these fora and they capture your ip address when you join so if I joined under another name they would know it was me; And I would also find it difficult to pursue an argument around the concept that there is a ‘moderate’ Islam. |
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| pete | Oct 25 2010, 09:25 PM Post #15 |
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I used to think that because there are gay muslims, that they must be moderate muslims too.However, as time as passed and there seems no indication of moderate muslims making themselves heard, or taking any sort of stand,I have resigned myself to the fact that they are either too afraid or are simply part of the overall objective to islamise the world. Sad really. |
| No Surrender. | |
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| 1Pat | Oct 25 2010, 11:36 PM Post #16 |
Kafir
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I would like to offer an observation in this discussion if I may. The perception of Islam as a “religion” or “way of life”. Islam, as a religion: Like all other religions Islam is not open to scientific rigor and is therefore both subjective and faith based. Arguably unlike more evolved faiths, Islam follows a 1400yearold text written by one psychopathological individual and demands to be taken literally. Therefore compared to other more allegorical / interpretative based religious texts the “Koran” and those who follow are extreme by definition as suggested by Albion. Islam, as a way of life: Does not tolerate or conform to other cultures and objectively by any modern political definition, Islam is a Fascist ideology. Therefore compared to Western values, all who follow are extremist by definition, as Albion suggests. Either as a “religion” or “way of life” Islam is extremist, however in order to publically critique Islam in the West, an objective position is required. Only attack Islam via its Fascist ideology and its observable effects, we know the evidence is there. Go down the religious route and the message can and will be blurred / lost by the politic and religious mafia. Focus on the Fascist content of Islam. |
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| albionuk | Oct 26 2010, 01:52 PM Post #17 |
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I agree that we should focus and the fascist/racist aspect of Islam and regardless we should but I can’t see how you can separate Islam as a religion from Islam as an ideology because Muslims know full well that Islam is more than just a religion they believe and celebrate the fact that Islam is a complete plan for every aspect of how Muslims should lead their lives. I have struggled long and hard for a good argument for why Islam should not be called a religion and should be called an ideology but it’s not simply an ideology it is a political and social ideology and a religion it is all those things and like I say Muslims present that fact as something to celebrate certainly not something to hide. There is no way of separating the religion from the ideology (if there is tell me). There are Muslims who want to get on with their lives, live well and prosper who would love to shed the baggage but the best argument they can come up to ditch everything but the Qu’ran. They are called Qu’ran only Muslims and argue that anything other than the Qu’ran (principally the hadith and sunnah) are not obligatory. But that still leaves the Qu’ran and that itself includes instruction not just on religion but also on political and social ideology. I spent years trying to argue with Muslims that they do not need to adhere to the more extreme teachings of Islam and failed. Now I argue with the wahhabi’s, that they should adhere strictly to Islam and that includes hijrah. They don’t like that, they don’t want to leave the comfort and security provided by the west. Ah but, they cry, “we can’t migrate to a Muslim land because they don’t operate true sharia law” or “they won’t let us in.” Migrate to Somalia or north west Pakistan I reply, they’ll let you in and they operate sharia law; it’s then that the thread gets closed or deleted!! |
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| 1Pat | Oct 26 2010, 02:40 PM Post #18 |
Kafir
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When a belief system and its doctrines are visibly enforced it is no longer a question of blind faith but a political ideology, in this case” Fascist”. Islam is no longer just inhabiting the minds and lives of its own followers but insists on the wider community. Therefore it is definitely not a religion but a Politically Fascist movement and should be treated as such. |
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| lan-astaslem | Oct 26 2010, 03:44 PM Post #19 |
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Patriot
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Of course they don,t like it because you are revealing their hypocrisy Hijrah: Migration for the Cause of Allah 1 Migration from the lands of disbelievers to the lands of Muslims was mandatory in the time of the Prophet , and it is still obligatory till the Day of Judgement. The obligation which the Prophet (peace be upon him) lifted after the conquest of Makkah was that of taking up residence near him. Whoever accepts Islam while living among those who are at war with mohammedans must leave to make his home among the mohammedans 2. It is obligatory to leave the lands of the Bidah(innovation). Imam Malik said: "None of you may remain in a country where the mohammedans are cursed'. 3. It is obligatory to leave a place where forbidden practices are rife since it is mandatory for Muslims to demand observance of the Law. In this regard, Ibn Taymiyyah said, "The state of a place reflects the state of a person. It is possible to be sometimes a mohammedans and at other times a disbeliever; sometimes sincere and at other times hypocritical; sometimes good and pious and at other times rotten and corrupt. Thus, a person becomes like the place of his abode. The migration of a person from a land of disbelief and profanity to one of faith and probity is an expression of repentance and of his turning away from disobedience and perversion to belief and obedience. This is so until the Day of Resurrection." 4. One must flee persecution and oppression. This is to be counted as one of the many blessings of Allah that he has given His license, to whoever fears for himself and his own safety, to go and find some sanctuary for himself. The first to do this was Abraham,~ who, when he was threatened by his own people said: (I will emigrate for the sake of my Lord), (29:26). Then there was Moses: (So he escaped from there, vigilant and fearing for his life, and said "My Lord deliver me from these oppressors" ), (28:21 ). 5. In times of epidemic, people were required to leave the city and remain in the hinterland until the threat of disease had passed. The exception to this is in times of plague. 6. If one fears for the safety of his family or the security of his property then he must also flee since security of one's possessions is like the safety of one's person. |
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“One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory.” – Houari (Mohamed) Boumedienne, President of Algeria, 1965 – 1978, in a 1974 speech at the UN
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