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| Ireland's Catholic schools ban full Muslim veil; Ban on Muslim girls covering their faces with a full veil. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 24 2010, 10:11 PM (392 Views) | |
| Deleted User | Sep 24 2010, 10:11 PM Post #1 |
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Ireland's Catholic schools ban full Muslim veil Roman Catholic secondary schools in Ireland have imposed a ban on Muslim girls covering their faces with a full veil. By Simon Caldwell Published: 3:24PM BST 24 Sep 2010 Teachers have been told in guidelines that Muslims would not be permitted to wear the niqab, the garment covering the entire body except for slits across the eyes. The guidance, circulated in Ireland by bishops among more than 450 schools this week, said that although staff should respect the religious rights of non-Catholics, it was "unsatisfactory for a teacher not to be able to see and engage properly with a pupil whose face was covered". "No pupil or staff member should be prevented from wearing a religious symbol or garment in accordance with their tradition, for example, the hijab [headscarf] for Muslim girls and the turban for Sikh boys," said the document called "Guidelines on the Inclusion of Students of Other Faiths in Catholic Secondary Schools". "Freedom of religious expression is a basic human right and is in keeping with the Catholic understanding of its identity as being a universal Church," the guidelines say. "On the other hand, the wearing of a full veil over a girl's face [niqab], for example, is a more challenging issue." The guidelines advise teachers to explain the prohibition in the presence of the head or senior teacher to parents of any pupils who wanted to wear the veil. Staff are told that they would be right to demand that a pupil's mother remove her own veil during such a meeting as long as no men are present. The guidelines also recommend that parents are made aware of uniform policy before children arrive at schools. In many cases, they say, uniform policy would involve an obligation to wear the school's crest on a blazer even if this included an image of a cross or other Christian symbols. The guidelines were published after a number of head teachers asked the bishops for advice on how to work with pupils from other religions while maintaining their Catholic ethos. Their publication signals the hardening across the European Union towards the wearing of the veil, with France the latest country to forbid the practice. In Britain, Catholics schools have already strongly discouraged the wearing of the veil and last year a Muslim teacher was prevented from visiting St Mary's Catholic College in Blackburn, Lancashire, because she refused to take off her niqab. Months earlier, a Muslim mother was turned away from a parents' evening at Our Lady and St John Catholic Arts College, Blackburn, for the same reason. The Irish guidelines, like those published in England and Wales in 2008, also recommend that places be set aside in schools were Muslim pupils can pray daily. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/8023079/Irelands-Catholic-schools-ban-full-Muslim-veil.html |
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| Wigone | Sep 24 2010, 10:16 PM Post #2 |
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A Blackburn college has done this too http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1314793/UK-sixth-form-college-bans-veil-security-reasons.html |
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They don't like it up 'em. Don't tell them your name Pike. | |
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| ENUFisENUF | Sep 24 2010, 10:21 PM Post #3 |
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Kafir
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for fcuk's sake....religion is the cause of all the sh1t in the world today. Catholics screaming about protestants, protestants screaming about catholics, muslims screaming about jews, jews screaming about muslims, muslims screaming about catholics, catholics screaming about muslims, jews screaaming about christians, christians screaming about jews, baptists screaming about mormons, mormons screaming about baptists. I'm fcuking sick of it!!!!!!! Take the religion out of it and what would we have? A few wars based on resources and territory. We would never have had the bosnian conflict, the Irish troubles, the middle east sh1t fight, the crusades, the inquisition, the dark ages, the witch hunts, the holocaust, half the conflicts in africa etc etc etc Yes, we humans thrive on war and killing, but take the imaginary skydaddy away and we would just fight for tangible reasons. There's only ONE positive about religion of any flavour ... it keeps the population down.. |
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“Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.”-Thomas Jefferson | |
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| UK-Jack | Sep 24 2010, 10:22 PM Post #4 |
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Kafir
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Another small step of hope. NS |
Patriotism is love and devotion to one's country![]() Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society. Aristotle All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke | |
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| Deleted User | Sep 24 2010, 10:28 PM Post #5 |
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Humans since the dawn of time have had a supernatural belief process, some may not agree with it or find it to be the right way but it's just the way it is. Human nature so to speak. Humans need to believe there is something far greater than them. |
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| ENUFisENUF | Sep 24 2010, 10:39 PM Post #6 |
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Kafir
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I agree to an extent. Humans have been ignorant of how the world works for a very long time, so yes, in that respect our ignorance is made to feel less ignorant by blaming everything on a higher being. BUT, in the last 200 years we have come a long way. We have grown our collective intellect immensly. Now we know better we no longer have the need to blame everything on a higher being. I am educated in science and I don't automatically think there is a higher being involved. Does this mean I am not really human? Religion is cultural, not bioogical. Some say there is an evolutionary advantage for believing in a higher being but I disagree. There may have been a cultural/societal advantage, but not an evolutionary advantage. Evolutionary advantage relies on experience, ie if a twig snaps in the darkness be aware, there could be a leopard out there. If the reindeer come late this year be aware, it could be a cold winter etc etc etc. These things rely on observation and understanding. We just used an imaaginary being to answer questions we had no answers for. Now we have many answers we never believed we could have. |
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“Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.”-Thomas Jefferson | |
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| TodeSLichT | Sep 24 2010, 10:46 PM Post #7 |
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I'm afraid that i'm with Enough... There is something far greater than humankind, it is called the universe. You don't even need a capital letter either; how cool is that? Religion -> OUT! |
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| Deleted User | Sep 24 2010, 10:56 PM Post #8 |
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Let's hope they stick to their guns, otherwise, it's all downhill. (poor Ireland.....I have such fond childhood memories there, never thought it would come to this, sob - (these scum bastids, causing all this never ending grief and enjoying every minute of this slow bloodless war you *&^£"!s - not content with running roughshod over here are now sinking their tentacles in NI too)) There's only ONE positive about religion of any flavour ... it keeps the population down.. Since when. Islam has no intention of keeping their population down, quite the opposite. The aim of Islam is not to decrease the Islamic population but to increase it. |
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| Buster | Sep 24 2010, 11:06 PM Post #9 |
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True but their is no world violence like muslim world vilolence. |
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| Deleted User | Sep 24 2010, 11:09 PM Post #10 |
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Ireland will soon find out what this ban does to the peace on their streets sadly enough. |
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| GKC | Sep 25 2010, 05:41 AM Post #11 |
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Sep 24 2010, 09:21 PM for fcuk's sake....religion is the cause of all the sh1t in the world today. Catholics screaming about protestants, protestants screaming about catholics, muslims screaming about jews, jews screaming about muslims, muslims screaming about catholics, catholics screaming about muslims, jews screaaming about christians, christians screaming about jews, baptists screaming about mormons, mormons screaming about baptists. I'm fcuking sick of it!!!!!!! Take the religion out of it and what would we have? A few wars based on resources and territory. We would never have had the bosnian conflict, the Irish troubles, the middle east sh1t fight, the crusades, the inquisition, the dark ages, the witch hunts, the holocaust, half the conflicts in africa etc etc etc Yes, we humans thrive on war and killing, but take the imaginary skydaddy away and we would just fight for tangible reasons. There's only ONE positive about religion of any flavour ... it keeps the population down.. Umm.. Isn't the EDL's motto: In hoc signo vinces?!! |
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| The Brown Trout | Sep 25 2010, 06:54 AM Post #12 |
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Well it's a start, there should be a blanket ban on this garment fullstop. It has never been relevent to our culture to look like a pillar-box, why do so many come from other lands to escape persecution, then practice what they came to escape from? |
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No-one, not one, gives you the right to tell anyone, not anyone, what to believe in, As long as I've got a hole in my arse, I will fight for that right. | |
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| GKC | Sep 25 2010, 04:22 PM Post #13 |
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Umm.. Isn't the EDL's motto: In hoc signo vinces?!! |
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| English Angel | Sep 25 2010, 05:40 PM Post #14 |
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Kafir
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What he said!
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| Xboxgen | Sep 25 2010, 05:56 PM Post #15 |
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why would a Catholic School have a Muslim student? I can't figure that one out. |
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| ENUFisENUF | Sep 25 2010, 09:46 PM Post #16 |
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Kafir
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In hoc signo vinces means, basically ''with this as your standard you will have victory'' The christians hijacked the saying ages ago to back their cause. In fact Constantine (who rewrote the bible with the council of nicaea) was not even a christian, he was a pagan. But he was also a diplomat who saw the christians as a force to be reckoned with in hi Roman empire. The modern bible we all read and adhere to is a mish mash of pagan beliefs and christian beliefs. Constantine saw the christians as a big presense but he also recognised that many Romans were still pagans. So he cleverly gathered a group of scribes and scholars together to dilute christian belief with pagan belief. How clever was he???? Very clever, we all read that version of the bible today as though it was the real McKoy, when it is far from it. Saturnalia is now called Christmas. Saturnalia was introduced around 217 BCE to raise citizen morale after a crushing military defeat at the hands of the Carthaginians. Originally celebrated for a day, on December 17, its popularity saw it grow until it became a week long extravaganza, ending on the 23rd. Efforts to shorten the celebration were unsuccessful. Augustus tried to reduce it to three days, and Caligula to five. These attempts caused uproar and massive revolts among the Roman citizens. Saturnalia involved the conventional sacrifices, a couch (lectisternium) set out in front of the temple of Saturn and the untying of the ropes that bound the statue of Saturn during the rest of the year. A Saturnalicius princeps was elected master of ceremonies for the proceedings. Besides the public rites there were a series of holidays and customs celebrated privately. The celebrations included a school holiday, the making and giving of small presents (saturnalia et sigillaricia) and a special market (sigillaria). Gambling was allowed for all, even slaves. Saturnalia was a time to eat, drink, and be merry. This pagan holiday was homogenised into the christian fairytale. Yet we all believe that the christians were the original and best. My argument remains, if people only researched and questioned what they believe we wouldn't be in the sh1t state we are today. END OF RANT,,,,,, for now ;-) |
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“Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.”-Thomas Jefferson | |
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| Wigone | Sep 25 2010, 10:56 PM Post #17 |
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The modern bible we all read and adhere to is a mish mash of pagan beliefs and christian beliefs. Constantine saw the christians as a big presense but he also recognised that many Romans were still pagans. So he cleverly gathered a group of scribes and scholars together to dilute christian belief with pagan belief. How clever was he???? Very clever, we all read that version of the bible today as though it was the real McKoy, when it is far from it. I hope to God that we don;t get a rehashed version fo the Koran with bits of Chritianity in it to appease us infidels. Just think about it.
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They don't like it up 'em. Don't tell them your name Pike. | |
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| GKC | Sep 26 2010, 02:58 AM Post #18 |
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Its very interesting just how ill-informed you are my friend regarding Biblical criticism. The Bible has hands down the most reliable manuscript record of any ancient work. Even the most liberal scholars such as those involved in the Jesus Project admit that that none can attack the Bible based on corruption of text. Please point out to me examples of this mish-mash of Pagan/Christian beliefs, from the Bible. The Koran is a Christian heresy by definition. Please stick to an area about which you have an iota of knowledge, for this is certainly not one of them. ἐν τούτῳ νίκα which was Latinized to in hoc signo vinces does mean basically in this as your standard you will conquer, and when placed by the cross as does EDL the meaning is clear. By the way the The Council at Nicea's main purpose was with settling Christological issues which resulted in the Nicene Creed, it had nothing to do with "re-writing" the Bible or as I believe you mean establishing the canon. If there is no ultimate meaning behind everything, and all things(all, language can have no meaning, there can be no mind, no right/wrong, you can't have your cake and eat it to) are the result of some great accident, then how would we ever have found out that there is no meaning? Edited by GKC, Sep 26 2010, 03:19 AM.
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| ENUFisENUF | Sep 26 2010, 01:12 PM Post #19 |
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Kafir
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GKC, where are the gospels of Thomas and Mary Magdalene? Where in today's bible are the bits about a young mischievous Jesus turning his friends into goats for a laugh??? Before the Romans the Egyptians used to worship Horus. Guess what. Horus was born on 25th December to a virgin mother. He died and rose from the dead three days later. The writers of the bible used many pre christian myths and included them in the ible so as to make the early christian converts more comfortable with this new religion. I have already shown you Saturnalia. It's not my job to do the research for you, try doing some for yourself. If you read about the origins of the Abrahamic religions from an unbiased source you will see that what I say is true. Don't bother reading christian history from a christian source, they have a clear agenda. As for the bible being unadulterated, that's gotta be the funniesrt thing I've read for a while. The earliest gospels were written decades after Jesus's death, then there were others written 120 years after his death, yet we are supposed to believe that what these gospels say about Jesus are absoilutely true. Aside from the fact there are no records whatsoever in Roman archives that tell of a Jesus who was crucified by the powers that be, there are also no records in ancient Egypt that mention Jewish slaves, an exodus or thousands of egyptian caavaalry being swamped by a Moses tidal wave. The gospel of Thomas is the only gospel I have respect for. It tells of a Jesus who was a man, not a god. It tells of a Jesus who said that we are ALL the sons of God, not literaally but figuraatively. Thomas speaks of a Jesus who was almost Spinozan in his aattitude. A jesus who dodn't claim to be god but who claimed to admire and respect all life on the planet as a wonderful thing, not divine, just awesome. But, Thomas, despite his gospel being some of the earliest, has not been included in the bible we know today. I wonder why? |
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“Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.”-Thomas Jefferson | |
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| GKC | Sep 26 2010, 01:45 PM Post #20 |
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I am very sorry my friend but these type of criticisms smack of bad internet surfing and really give credence to the saying a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. As for research, my degree is in ancient language, Greek and Latin and Classical, Biblical studies,so I have done my fair share. The gospel of Thomas is not a connected narrative of the events of Jesus' life but a collection of 114 sayings attributed to Jesus, mostly intro'd by 'Jesus said'. These were allegedly revealed in secret to Thomas, but no one today believes this claim. Most have a patently Gnostic flavor, for example: Peter says to to them"Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life' Jesus replied, 'I myself shall lead her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling males.For every woman must make herself male to enter the kingdom'. Clearly there is NO support in either the Old or New Testaments for such claims, though certainly in the gnostic heresies. And this is the apocryphal book you have 'respect for'? Seems many Muslims could put this belief to good practice. The Gospel of Mary is more Gnoticism, not even worth going into here. No where in the Bible does it state that Christ was born on Dec. 25th, it is our tradition to honor his birth on that day and every day. The Christian religion, as presented in the NT is a fulfillment of the OT, a crowning if you will and realization of the 'Jewish' system and history, there is no more "jewish' book than this concerning the Jewish Messiah, as Jesus said 'lo, in the volume of the Book I come'. If a few decades time, discounts the validity of an historical text I think we'll see we must throw out 90% of our historical scripts, not to mention that they are eyewitness accounts which we believe divinely inspired. I think if you don't come up with something valid I will end our dialogue, as these adolescent objections can be resolved by reading the basic texts and criticism 101, even reputable skeptics. God Bless, In hoc signo vinces, DEUS VULT. |
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| ENUFisENUF | Sep 27 2010, 10:23 AM Post #21 |
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Kafir
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GKC, you say my posts smack of bad internet surfing. I disagree. I don't google, I read books. There are many books on the emergence and the origins of christianity. I say your posts smack of faith that what you believe must be true, despite the evidence against it. You never answered my claims about there being no record of a Jesus in Roman archives, despite the fact the Romaans were known to be fastidious record keepers. I can find out what a centurion paid for a slave in 20 AD but nothing about a messiah who was such a concern for the Roman powers that be that they had him crucified. We'll have to agree to disagree, but please don't accuse me of not knowing what I am talking about, I have researched the subject very well indeed for many years. |
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“Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.”-Thomas Jefferson | |
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| lancashirelad | Sep 27 2010, 10:31 AM Post #22 |
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Well Eire needs to be on its guard, having only a very small population it wouldnt take much of an influx for them to loose there way of life to the special ones, look whats happened to England our population is huge compared to Eires and look at the sh1t weve to put up with. |
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| GKC | Sep 27 2010, 01:39 PM Post #23 |
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i did not mean to insult you, Enuf, but the claims made regarding the apocrypha (Thomas , Mary) you must then know represent an early heretical sect of Christianity post dating the canonical works. It is a great mistake to conflate any other world faith, esp. the 'leaders' of such with Christ, as the comparisons can't be supported, not to mention earlier systems which might represent 'shadows' of truth as all men have naturally(Horus, fertility cults etc.). As to Roman texts, we do have Tacitus(reliable you must admit), Josephus, and Suetonias. But the Gospels and Epistles are, we so often forget, historical records themselves, as scholars agree whether secular or religious. Shortly, there was no great reason why the Empire should take great notice of a supposed 'Jewish rabble-rouser' being crucified along with 2 common thieves, if you see my point. He was crucified to prevent a greater disturbance from occurring, and that was the reason given to Pilate by the Jewish leaders. So you see it really was to keep word from getting out to Rome, that He was crucified. It wasn't until after the resurrection that Christianity gained any appreciable following, and then we do have many and diverse voices. Please forgive the tone of my last post, but it frustrates me to hear someone, obviously intelligent, not give reason and logic a chance to bring you to the conclusion which so many have come, that Christ is the Way, Truth, and Life. Other's before, Pagans, did certainly have echoes of truth and would therefore show similarities of form etc., but since the time myth became historical fact no pagan has been taken seriously. Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. God Bless brother, I have also studied Philosophy, Lit., comp. religion, as an atheist for most of my adult life and wasn't until 7yrs. ago I awoke. I only say that without God we have no right and wrong, no beauty, no diff.. from worms and no right to claim superiority to them or for that matter the Muslims as without an authority all is opinion. We can agree to disagree, keep studying as will I. God Bless |
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| stormcrow | Sep 27 2010, 01:44 PM Post #24 |
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uh oh !!!!religion rears its head again.do we need to stock up on the popcorn and drink or is this gonna be a short battle. realy think its time we had a section for religion as these topics are starting to get tedious and now has no relevance to the original topic.which was the banning of the veil in irish catholic schools. |
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| GKC | Sep 27 2010, 04:38 PM Post #25 |
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Point well taken, Stormcrow. Will do so in future, bit too over-zealous |
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| Revolutionary101 | Sep 27 2010, 04:42 PM Post #26 |
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Awesome ![]() One step at a time... Next lets ban em from Town Centres. |
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