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Just a thought.
Topic Started: May 30 2010, 09:43 PM (353 Views)
happy
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The main people who will help in fighting Islamic extremism in my eyes are the moderate Muslims. They are the ones who if they back anti extremist campaigns will really have a large influence (in my opinion).

Therefore, is it really appropriate that large sections of our members sing 'We all hate Muslims' that aren't racist, but are still surely going to actually discourage the moderate Muslims in joining our cause? I can't help but feel this campaign has the capacity to do great things but at the same time it risks being jeopardised and even being counter productive.
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I've never heard anybody sing 'we hate all muslims', do you have any evidence of this?

I think the 'moderates' are more scared of speaking out against the radicals than we are.
They would be accused of being apostates and be killed.
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happy
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TheBigCornishman
May 30 2010, 09:46 PM
I've never heard anybody sing 'we hate all muslims', do you have any evidence of this?

I think the 'moderates' are more scared of speaking out against the radicals than we are.
They would be accused of being apostates and be killed.
I apologise for the site, but http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-guardian-investigation 3 minutes in- sounds pretty loud.

I just think in order to combat the extreme Muslims we need to say to the other Muslims, we are here with you, we support you and will help you resist the extreme few.
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happy
May 30 2010, 09:49 PM
TheBigCornishman
May 30 2010, 09:46 PM
I've never heard anybody sing 'we hate all muslims', do you have any evidence of this?

I think the 'moderates' are more scared of speaking out against the radicals than we are.
They would be accused of being apostates and be killed.
I apologise for the site, but http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-guardian-investigation 3 minutes in- sounds pretty loud.

I just think in order to combat the extreme Muslims we need to say to the other Muslims, we are here with you, we support you and will help you resist the extreme few.
it won,t work..... a muslim will not turn on another muslim thats why thay dont do nothing.
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happy
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birmingham-loyal
May 30 2010, 09:52 PM
happy
May 30 2010, 09:49 PM
TheBigCornishman
May 30 2010, 09:46 PM
I've never heard anybody sing 'we hate all muslims', do you have any evidence of this?

I think the 'moderates' are more scared of speaking out against the radicals than we are.
They would be accused of being apostates and be killed.
I apologise for the site, but http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-guardian-investigation 3 minutes in- sounds pretty loud.

I just think in order to combat the extreme Muslims we need to say to the other Muslims, we are here with you, we support you and will help you resist the extreme few.
it won,t work..... a muslim will not turn on another muslim thats why thay dont do nothing.
I think that's very unfair, as I think the majority of Muslims do not want terrorism anywhere near the UK, and I would suggest that saying otherwise is going to scare people away who may support you...
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happy
May 30 2010, 09:43 PM
The main people who will help in fighting Islamic extremism in my eyes are the moderate Muslims. They are the ones who if they back anti extremist campaigns will really have a large influence (in my opinion).

Therefore, is it really appropriate that large sections of our members sing 'We all hate Muslims' that aren't racist, but are still surely going to actually discourage the moderate Muslims in joining our cause? I can't help but feel this campaign has the capacity to do great things but at the same time it risks being jeopardised and even being counter productive.
troll radars up- B-)

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My opinion:

If moderate Muslims have never come out and denounced the extremists, I cannot see them joining a group who are labelled racist, footy hooligans, knuckledraggers etc.
The people who come on here claiming they are a moderate Muslim have been given a fair crack of the whip in my eyes. You wouldn`t get the same deal off many other forums.
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happy
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clee39
May 30 2010, 09:54 PM
happy
May 30 2010, 09:43 PM
The main people who will help in fighting Islamic extremism in my eyes are the moderate Muslims. They are the ones who if they back anti extremist campaigns will really have a large influence (in my opinion).

Therefore, is it really appropriate that large sections of our members sing 'We all hate Muslims' that aren't racist, but are still surely going to actually discourage the moderate Muslims in joining our cause? I can't help but feel this campaign has the capacity to do great things but at the same time it risks being jeopardised and even being counter productive.
troll radars up- B-)

This is the problem you are going to have man.

I am anti extreme Islam, really, I despise it.

I am also very much anti racism, and anti discriminating against religious beliefs, therefore I would back the EDL in preventing extreme islam, yet when I start to question why you would also bring normal Muslims in to it I get accused of trolling?

I am genuinely undecided on the EDL as whether they are the right group for me and comments like that don't help your cause.
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happy
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MJ999
May 30 2010, 09:56 PM
My opinion:

If moderate Muslims have never come out and denounced the extremists, I cannot see them joining a group who are labelled racist, footy hooligans, knuckledraggers etc.
The people who come on here claiming they are a moderate Muslim have been given a fair crack of the whip in my eyes. You wouldn`t get the same deal off many other forums.
I most definitely read about an Islamic protest in Birmingham against extreme Islam that got well over 10,000 people.
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No offence but that is a naive view, muslims have far more in common with

other muslims, no matter what.
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The Lion of Vienna
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happy
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Ruby
May 30 2010, 10:00 PM
No offence but that is a naive view, muslims have far more in common with

other muslims, no matter.
The majority of Muslims I seem to know are not at all pro terrorist, however maybe the case is different down south.
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happy
May 30 2010, 09:59 PM
MJ999
May 30 2010, 09:56 PM
My opinion:

If moderate Muslims have never come out and denounced the extremists, I cannot see them joining a group who are labelled racist, footy hooligans, knuckledraggers etc.
The people who come on here claiming they are a moderate Muslim have been given a fair crack of the whip in my eyes. You wouldn`t get the same deal off many other forums.
I most definitely read about an Islamic protest in Birmingham against extreme Islam that got well over 10,000 people.
wheres the link,
i read the moon was made of green cheese.
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happy
May 30 2010, 09:58 PM
clee39
May 30 2010, 09:54 PM
happy
May 30 2010, 09:43 PM
The main people who will help in fighting Islamic extremism in my eyes are the moderate Muslims. They are the ones who if they back anti extremist campaigns will really have a large influence (in my opinion).

Therefore, is it really appropriate that large sections of our members sing 'We all hate Muslims' that aren't racist, but are still surely going to actually discourage the moderate Muslims in joining our cause? I can't help but feel this campaign has the capacity to do great things but at the same time it risks being jeopardised and even being counter productive.
troll radars up- B-)

This is the problem you are going to have man.

I am anti extreme Islam, really, I despise it.

I am also very much anti racism, and anti discriminating against religious beliefs, therefore I would back the EDL in preventing extreme islam, yet when I start to question why you would also bring normal Muslims in to it I get accused of trolling?

I am genuinely undecided on the EDL as whether they are the right group for me and comments like that don't help your cause.
how many moderate Muslims are in this country compared to Islamic extremists,surely they know who the extremists are and where they practice there hate...it aint rocket science is it.
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happy
May 30 2010, 10:01 PM
Ruby
May 30 2010, 10:00 PM
No offence but that is a naive view, muslims have far more in common with

other muslims, no matter.
The majority of Muslims I seem to know are not at all pro terrorist, however maybe the case is different down south.

That isn't what I said.
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HS will be here in a minute :D

he'll be twitching thinking somethings not right.
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I can see where Happy is coming from - muslim BOMBERS off our streets, absolutely. No surrender to the Taliban. Hell yeah.

But it is IMO not going to do the EDL any favours if we make the mistake of tarring all muslims with the same brush. Isnt that just what the media are doing with us as an organisation?

To say that muslims all have more in common with each other is - again IMO - wrong. Look at what happened the other day in Lahore, where moderate mulsims were slaughterd just for wanting to live a modreate and peaful existence. The so-called muslims who brutally attacked them, for being peaceful, were not their kindred spirits. WE have more in common with those poor souls :(

We need to rise above it, we need to make sure we do not give any cause for people to brand us racist and above all we do need to show the moderate muslims that we are their friends - not their foe.

So liong as we do that, we will continue to step further forward with success :)
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General Pershing
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Happy, I can smell a troll at a million miles! Why are you really here?
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WakeupEngland
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Not sure that I agree with some of the things mentioned on this thread but I certainly agree we could do without folks singing ''We all hate Muslims". This is just the sort of thing the Press like to get hold of and makes our claim to be non-racist look rather weak. Having said that , how do you stop it ?? Answers on a post-card please.
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clee39
May 30 2010, 09:54 PM
troll radars up- B-)

Right with you, it's sometimes like living in a paralell universe seeing these threads time after time from the 'enlightened'.
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General Pershing
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If anyone thinks 'moderate Muslims' would EVER side with the EDL then they're seriously deluded! ex-Muslim's yes, 'moderate Muslims' NO CHANCE.

Where were the moderate Muslims when extremists blew up London underground? Where were their protests? Where were the Moderate Mulsims defending their faith??????

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wasnt there a post earlier bout abdul been forced to move due to local muslims not liking him been EDL.
theyre a tolerant lot.
doesnt HS live in a predominantly muslim area and fear for his life?
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General Pershing
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clee39
May 30 2010, 10:22 PM
wasnt there a post earlier bout abdul been forced to move due to local muslims not liking him been EDL.
theyre a tolerant lot.
doesnt HS live in a predominantly muslim area and fear for his life?
Abdul is not a moderate Muslim. He's an EX-MUSLIM!! HUGE DIFFERENCE!!
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Thing is every chance has been and is still afforded to moderate muslims to speak out. If they do and when they do I will back them all the way as will the EDL I am positive.
I have a freind who is very anti extreamism and sharia law yet a muslim, he backs the princibles of the EDL but as yet is too scared to come to a demo ( I hope to change that ).
Thing is why is he scared, in a very sparse area of other muslims?
That I cannot answer I can only make a educated guess, one that is simple, he would be ostrosized for doing it.
Extreamists maybe a minority but the fear they have on others is far reaching and almost total in control.
If they all came out together in numbers maybe, but I liken it to our demos, if all members hit the streets the world would take note but we still havent passed 2kish on any given demo.
So a little slack for now because I do believe as our numbers grow, their fear will subside.
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There are many moderate muslims, but the problem is, in areas like Alum Rock, most of the younger generation there are anti-white, anti-non muslim and probably sympathize with Islamic terrorist groups.
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Maybe, but again thats a minority compared the the rest of the country, not one to be in any way ignored but.
I also think there is a mob or to put it blunt football style mentality, like that of the 70's early 80's where no matter you defend your turf.
Half these young muslims have no idea why they are fighting us they do so as they are told we are the enemy and you must defend your turf.
They believe we hate them full stop.
Drummed up by press uaf and swp frenzies. If they took some time out and looked at it many would probably agree with us as many like a drink smoke and a wager..and of course a bunk up so my guess is many would rather our freedom than sharia!
That is just my opinion obviously but it is worth looking at I believe.
So how do we stop the hate? Thats much harder to answer and I am not sure I can.
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Majority didn't condemn 9/11, Madrid Bombings, Beslan school siege and 7/7

How the f**k do you think we'll get them to support us?
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I never said we could I said they may not support sharia either.
I do believe as said they are too scared to stand up, you would be suprised at what terror can do to people. I have witnessed it, small but deadly scares the sihite out of people, NI a prime example.
Its not a new concept it has been going on for years.
Fear and intimidation is worth a batalion of men, if that wasnt the case then how would gangs exist, how would the mafia exist, how did and do the ira exist ect ect.
I do not back or make excuses, I abhore what happened but I have seen what fear does to people.
That said we in the EDL are lions, a different breed, I dont do fear I tackle it and so do many but not everyone is like that and that we must accept.
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clee39
May 30 2010, 10:22 PM
wasnt there a post earlier bout abdul been forced to move due to local muslims not liking him been EDL.
theyre a tolerant lot.
doesnt HS live in a predominantly muslim area and fear for his life?
Clee, I hope the person you speak of is okay? He is not in any danger is he? If so, there are organisations which can help him if he needs a safe haven.

Ooops! I meant to add, maybe we can have a sticky thread somewhere on the board with contact information on associations that deal specifically with helping people who are in danger in some way to do with Islam (ie violence, forced marriages, at risk, threatened honour killing, and apostasy (leaving islam) etc). I have spoken to a couple of the people myself. They know only too well the risks which some people within Islam are facing.
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dunkie
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HoopsOfEssex
May 31 2010, 02:12 AM
I do not back or make excuses, I abhore what happened but I have seen what fear does to people.
That said we in the EDL are lions, a different breed, I dont do fear I tackle it and so do many but not everyone is like that and that we must accept.
Well put HOEssex, all three comments are spot on. And fear is a very commanding power, especially as many of these folk have families (UK and overseas) that could suffer reprisals if they went out in support of the EDL or even other demonstrations against the extremists. Having seen the way violent islamists react, its 100 times more severe than how we 'non muslims' respond to threats or attacks, they go beserk. That same violence can quickly turn on their own who don't tow the line, such as those less violent muslim sects like the Ahmadi's. Even if an individual may want to make that big step, he would worry about his family getting acid thrown in their face.

I don't think the majority of muslim familes, or elders want full blown Sharia courts or extremists in their lives, they just have a tough path trying to deflect it.
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This is my view, not the EDL's

It's common knowledge that Islam wants to grow and take over societies, destroying their cultures and subjecting its people to Sharia Law and all the horrors that go with it, so if you subscribe to that system of belief then you're part of it. There is no place for a mythical moderate Islam within Islam, your are either for it or against it, events around the world and for the last 1500 years should show you this at least.

A Muslim that is against the Stoning and beheading of Adulterers and Homosexuals is like a Nazi against the persecution and gassing of Jews, because it is at the very core of their beliefs. So if the so called moderate Muslims subscribe to that Ideology whilst thinking they can water it down into something less, they are greatly mistaken. Those Muslims that left Islam did so because they understood this.

Do you think the Jews would be happy to see an increasing number of moderate Nazis moving to Israel? Do you think if Israel opened its boarders to the moderate Muslims it would have less problems?

If 50 percent of the UK's population was Moderate Muslims do you think life would go on as usual for the other 50 percent?
Islam is an ideology that is counter to everything we believe in here in the West. We are heading towards dark dark times my friends, and good people on both sides need to examine their ideas and beliefs to decide where they stand on this.

Islam is what it is and that's it, if you subscribe to Islam, yet think you can make it into something it's not then you are an enemy of Islam, and there are Islamic Laws ready to execute you when the time is right and that time will come if it's not opposed now.


So in my humble opinion on this issue, you are either for Islam or against it.

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It all sounds so easy peasy, expecting people to publicly stand up against Islam. Realistically it isn't though.

The huge build up of Islamic communities in this country and abroad has in fact made it more difficult for people to leave or stand up against radical Islam.

We have all witnessed how quickly Islamic communities have grown, making it a powerful hub. Towns now don't usually have one mosque, there will most likely be more than one mosque (as we well know ;) ). The more mosques erected the more tight knit and powerful they become, and the more difficult it will be for people to leave, speak out, denounce terrorism and aggressive, radical preaching (wahhabi for instance) etc.

Some people who actually have spoken out, or leave Islam, or convert (apostasy), do end up having to leave their community - not always for their own safety alone but for the safety of their family members too. Leaving Islam; speaking out; or siding with EDL can most likely result in being threatened and harrassed, even aggressively, and worse.

So, it is not so cut and dried as some people imagine. Wish it was.

It is a huge step for any muslim to undertake. The backlash against his or her family members is a very real possibility. Pressure can be put on the family members by the Iman of the mosque, or other mosque members, or members in the community, as well as the possibility of pressure/threats from relatives or friends back in their family's home country, ie Pakistan etc.

Apostasy and Honour Killings are real, and the threat is far greater than we can ever imagine. 1,000's of Honour Killings take place each year - some are arranged here and abroad, and the deathly deed carried out here, or the victim is taken back to another country, unaware of their fate.

People who are brave enough to stand by EDL do take a huge risk. Remember, Islam, is no ordinary passive loving understanding cult/religion we are dealing with - it is one of the most vicious and cruel.

Young women, men and children have been killed for less!

A small reminder of the wrath of Islam (imo Honour is the wrong word for such barbarism): Honour/Honor Killing: Islam's Gruesome Gallery
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Your Right fern, I can only imagine how difficult it is to be a Muslim and speak out against Islam, but it has to be remembered that the people giving them the problem are the so called moderate practicing Muslims not the extremists. If a Muslim girl has a Christian boyfriend, who do you think is more likely to kill her, A Muslim extremist or one of her own family?

I think the government and other organisations should help those who want to leave Islam en masse, to change their names and relocate, and anyone who threatens them should be removed from this country and sent back to the s**tholes they couldn't wait to get out of.

A Muslim can either support the ideology of Islam or leave it, not wish it could change into something it's not. i.e. a true " religion of peace" and then call themselves moderate Muslims.

If Islam was a religion and ideology that really taught peace and love for mankind I would be the first join it.

The sooner those Muslims who don't believe in this so called religion of peace are helped to leave it the better it is for both us and them. This I think is the only way this situation could resolve itself without the kind of war we saw in the former Yugoslavia happening all over Europe at sometime in the future. And believe me, war will come, because Islam and any other type of system or religion cannot peacefully coexist in the same space.
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fern
May 31 2010, 04:16 AM
A small reminder of the wrath of Islam (imo Honour is the wrong word for such barbarism): Honour/Honor Killing: Islam's Gruesome Gallery
That is a shocking list and no doubt just a small list of some of the those that we in the west are aware of.

It would be a good idea I think to get some placards made up with these pictures on. Press love placards and I think it would certainly draw some welcome attention toward 'honour killings'. Something that the press are reluctant to really get involved in.

I think this is one part of this cruel and disgusting death cult that we should be highlighting.

Edit: Several of these women's so called 'dishonour' was embracing the western culture "being too westernised" and others it was simply because their parents (almost always the male relatives) didn't agree with their choice of partner.

I really think we should champion this. I would gladly carry a big placard with all their faces on at a demo. Maybe hand out some leaflets if we could get some knocked up. Anything to draw more attention toward these wicked acts.
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General Pershing
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S.H.I.E.L.D
May 31 2010, 03:29 AM
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This is my view, not the EDL's

It's common knowledge that Islam wants to grow and take over societies, destroying their cultures and subjecting its people to Sharia Law and all the horrors that go with it, so if you subscribe to that system of belief then you're part of it. There is no place for a mythical moderate Islam within Islam, your are either for it or against it, events around the world and for the last 1500 years should show you this at least.

A Muslim that is against the Stoning and beheading of Adulterers and Homosexuals is like a Nazi against the persecution and gassing of Jews, because it is at the very core of their beliefs. So if the so called moderate Muslims subscribe to that Ideology whilst thinking they can water it down into something less, they are greatly mistaken. Those Muslims that left Islam did so because they understood this.

Do you think the Jews would be happy to see an increasing number of moderate Nazis moving to Israel? Do you think if Israel opened its boarders to the moderate Muslims it would have less problems?

If 50 percent of the UK's population was Moderate Muslims do you think life would go on as usual for the other 50 percent?
Islam is an ideology that is counter to everything we believe in here in the West. We are heading towards dark dark times my friends, and good people on both sides need to examine their ideas and beliefs to decide where they stand on this.

Islam is what it is and that's it, if you subscribe to Islam, yet think you can make it into something it's not then you are an enemy of Islam, and there are Islamic Laws ready to execute you when the time is right and that time will come if it's not opposed now.


So in my humble opinion on this issue, you are either for Islam or against it.

100% agree. Moderates will never side with the EDL, besides, they are totally irrelevant.

Our time and effort would be far better spent trying to recruit from the Hindu, Sikh, Jewish, Feminist, Christian, Gay and EX-Muslim population. These are the people who'll be affected by continued Islamisation and these are the people who just might side with EDL.

Anyone who thinks a Muslim (moderate or otherwise) would ever side with the EDL is really living in cloud cuckoo land.
Edited by General Pershing, May 31 2010, 08:35 AM.
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Muslim communities have spent a great deal of time over the last few years, with the help of our dhimmi government, harnessing yet more of their foot soldiers via many different channels. One is brainwashing and preparing their next generation of muslims, very young children, in their Islamic Faith Schools and mosques. Not content with that, they have now infiltrated our own school curriculum, which in effect embraces their religion, as well as a new initiative they have named Interfaith, under the umberella of Interfaith they have set-up specific groups of people, usually converts themselves, who are a driving force set out to gain more recruits through schools and meetings with other faiths, encouraging non-muslims to convert to Islam.

Good idea Scott, re adding the pics of some of the victims of Honour Killings.

Reaching out to those inside Islam won't ever be easy, Prime example is the outspoken Geert Wilders, a very brave man, and then there is Geller at Atlas Shrugs and Spencer at Jihadwatch, between them, rented advertising space on some of the buses in the USA with a flyer (below). Accusations of bigotry, racism and anti-muslim are all but some of witterings from the leftwing MSM this week, led by the nose by affiliates such as the front for The Muslim Brotherhood such as CAIR and their radical islamic cohorts. Oh the tangled web of Islam!

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Atlas Shrugs words regarding the flyer above:

One of the first projects that we’ve been working on for Stop the Islamization of America and the Freedom Defense Initiative organization that I started with Robert Spencer was a bus campaign to counter the dawah campaign of the Muslim Brotherhood.

For those of you curious as to why we created and organized a bus campaign to offer resources to Muslims who are desperate to leave Islam, I shall explain.

The bus campaigns that Muslim Brotherhood groups (CAIR, ICNA, ISNA) were sponsoring across the country
inviting conversion to Islam (dawah) were deceptive and injurious. It……….. So I developed the above bus ad with the help of the enormously talented Big Fur Hat to roll out nationwide, kicking off with South Florida.

Our pro-freedom campaign rolled out today on the following buses all over Miami — Route 3 (Biscayne Blvd and US1), Route 88 (Kendall Drive SW 88th Street, from the Dade and North Metro Rail station to SW 80th street)), Route 40 (Bird Road SW 40th Street), Route L (Hialeah along 79th Street Causeway, Collins Avenue to Miami Beach Convention Center), Route E (Collins Avenue), Route 11 (FIU Bus terminal to FIU South campus, West Flagler street ends at Government center Metro station) — split between curb side and street side.
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Karif-Chris
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happy
May 30 2010, 09:54 PM
birmingham-loyal
May 30 2010, 09:52 PM
happy
May 30 2010, 09:49 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deephttp://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-guardian-investigation 3 minutes in- sounds pretty loud.

I just think in order to combat the extreme Muslims we need to say to the other Muslims, we are here with you, we support you and will help you resist the extreme few.
it won,t work..... a muslim will not turn on another muslim thats why thay dont do nothing.
I think that's very unfair, as I think the majority of Muslims do not want terrorism anywhere near the UK, and I would suggest that saying otherwise is going to scare people away who may support you...
So how do you think islam has spread around the globe so fast, there will only be a few "extremists" but when they have bread or emigrated in enough numbers they wipe out everything that was there in the 1st place, look at history, it give a clear insight into what will happen to any county that muslims move to
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dunkie
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Scott_Lee
May 31 2010, 07:26 AM
I think this is one part of this cruel and disgusting death cult that we should be highlighting.

Edit: Several of these women's so called 'dishonour' was embracing the western culture "being too westernised" and others it was simply because their parents (almost always the male relatives) didn't agree with their choice of partner.

I really think we should champion this. I would gladly carry a big placard with all their faces on at a demo. Maybe hand out some leaflets if we could get some knocked up. Anything to draw more attention toward these wicked acts.
Great idea.

Its pathetic how our media avoid this problem and don't highlight it, fukkin crime to be honest. Imagine in reverse if there was an extreme christian sect that was killing members who didn't conform or meet their 'rules', front page news, every paper, every TV station. Yet they hide these stories....Do journalists fear they could be attacked? Editor control? Worried about people protesting outside their offices? Honour killings are much more widespread than anyone knows, media helps hide this for whatever reason.

Even here in Texas, right next to my office, 2 young girls left bleeding for an hour, alive after their father shot them for becomeing too westernized. As least the local Imam denounced their deaths somewhat.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/religion/stories/011208dnmethonorkillings.224909b.html

As I'm beginning to be educated by forum members (Ruby/Road Hog others), the problem in the UK has obviously grown far worse than when I grew up there, and in the US, there does not seem to be the depth of extremist infiltration yet for obvious reasons. As I've mentioned before, I have several good muslim friends, play cricket with them and have vibrant discussions about islam's threat, how they treat women etc. I even travel with work with this one guy, we go out in the evenings, he doesn't drink but smokes, I get sh*tty drunk and he hangs with me in bars etc, debating lots of stuff, he's a riot. We even go on websites with him trying to pick a wife. Point is, perhaps where fear is less, moderation is possible, where fear is high, less so. Either way, in my opinion, to put yourself out there as 100% against Islam, will not give you any chance of atttracting brave moderates or grow your membership into the general community. Just my opinion, may not be that of the EDL or the current plan of the EDL, your choice obviously.
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Having kept up to date with USA politics for a long while now, soz, but I have to totally disagree with you on this. Usa has a major problem, like us, with extremism and the expansionism of Islam:

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and in the US, there does not seem to be the depth of extremist infiltration yet for obvious reasons


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Well, with my own eyes, I don't see it here at the levels described by forum members about the UK. For clarity, I'm not saying it isn't here and growing. Point was purely related to moderation in areas where perhaps the threat is not as high. Violence in the UK from muslim communities against others and each other appears a lot higher that what we see here from the 6-8m muslims.
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fern
May 31 2010, 05:31 PM
Having kept up to date with USA politics for a long while now, soz, but I have to totally disagree with you on this. Usa has a major problem, like us, with extremism and the expansionism of Islam:

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and in the US, there does not seem to be the depth of extremist infiltration yet for obvious reasons


And using another Ruby statistic, latest count shows 843 mosques, so around 7,700 people per mosque. This shows be that we have a lower level of practicing muslims than the UK. (or they dont get planning permission! :huh: )
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Good post fern

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Maybe we should set up a division that deals with this. We can create an EDL website dedicated to offering advice and support to those wanting to leave Islam. We can also try and enlist the help of ex Muslims, and try to get funding from organisations that may support such and imitative. I am sure donations would be forthcoming from those organisations sympathetic with our cause from the United States, gawd bless em.

A group of us would need to put the time in though. It would comprise of a number of people willing to spend the time on their computer to make this work.
Not only we will we get the satisfaction of saving people from that cult, but it would be a wild hair up the Islamist arse. A win win situation.
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fern
May 31 2010, 05:31 PM
Having kept up to date with USA politics for a long while now, soz, but I have to totally disagree with you on this. Usa has a major problem, like us, with extremism and the expansionism of Islam:

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and in the US, there does not seem to be the depth of extremist infiltration yet for obvious reasons


Funnily enough I got the a similar response from an online friend in the US who said "it wont happen over here we wont allow it" despite my screaming at him "IT'S ALREADY f**kING HAPPENING OPEN YOUR f**kING EYES" he still wouldn't accept it.

Just like in Europe, there a lot of people in America who are in denial. But then why wouldn't they be when like us for so long, they too have been shielded from the truth and have been spoon fed bulls**t for the last decade or so by their state controlled media! :huh:
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Scott_Lee
May 31 2010, 05:44 PM

Just like in Europe, there a lot of people in America who are in denial. But then why wouldn't they be when like us for so long, they too have been shielded from the truth and have been spoon fed bulls**t for the last decade or so by their state controlled media! :huh:
I trust me own eyes and in Texas I don't see it, and imo thats why it isn't on the news. We have a 3.5% muslim population in Dallas and nothing like the issues described on this website about the UK, almost all are Sunni's and live in an area just north of the main city. Can't speak for other states, I know populations will be higher in NY etc
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dunkie
May 31 2010, 05:24 PM
dunkie:
in my opinion, to put yourself out there as 100% against Islam, will not give you any chance of atttracting brave moderates or grow your membership into the general community. Just my opinion, may not be that of the EDL or the current plan of the EDL, your choice obvious
Hello dunkie,

We don't need to attract brave moderates they can make their own group. In the same way that we have divisions of likeminded people within the EDL, there will be people who would rather form other organisations to suit their own perspective on how to deal with this Islamic problem. And if these groups can work together towards a common goal then even better.

I'll tell you this though, the people here would not of allowed the building of a Mega Mosque on a site where thousands of its citizens were slaughtered by Muslims. And only the EDL would have the balls to lead the way on this, while the moderates at best would muster the bravery to follow behind. This country needs the EDL because without them there would only be moderates, but with the EDL they can have the confidence to be "brave moderates". The main value of the EDL is that not only do they have the confidence to confront situations, but that confidence is passed on, and those that thought the battle against Islamic ideology was lost now rally round the EDL, some moderates included, because now they have hope.

But anyway the vast majority of English moderates are much like the Islamic moderates, you don't find millions of them protesting against the EDL views, because they secretly support them, without letting anyone else know they do, so they can keep their so called moral high ground intact while others do the dirty work.

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pmsl @ that voting gif
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Dunkie, the first Sharia Court was in Texas!!!

anyway, here are some foiled attempts of terrorism in the USA, and these are only the ones they tell you about!

Complete list of over 15,000 Islamic attacks across the world since 911 is here.

Long list of terror attacks thwarted by Bush admin since 9/11 – with the one below, indicates both numbers are slightly off but serve as a stark reminder of the growing threat facing America. Then there are the plots that are never publicly announced. 30 Terrorist Plots Foiled: How The System Worked:

Based on public information, the U.S. has foiled at least 30 terrorist attacks since 9/11. In two cases, the outcome was the result of sheer luck. The foiling of the rest was the result of good law enforcement and effective intelligence gathering and information sharing.

30 Terrorist Plots Against the U.S. Foild Since 9/11

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1. Richard Reid, December 2001. A British citizen and self-professed follower of Osama bin Laden trained in Afghanistan, Reid hid explosives inside his shoes before boarding a flight from Paris to Miami on which he attempted to light the fuse with a match. Reid was caught in the act and apprehended on board the plane by the flight attendants and passengers. FBI officials took Reid into custody after the plane made an emergency landing at Boston’s Logan International Airport.[1]

In 2003, Reid was found guilty on charges of terrorism, and a U.S. federal court sentenced him to life imprisonment.[2]

2. Jose Padilla, May 2002. U.S. officials arrested Padilla in May 2002 at O’Hare airport in Chicago as he returned to the United States from Pakistan, where he met with 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and received al-Qaeda instructions and training.[3] Upon his arrest, he was initially charged as an enemy combatant and for planning to use a dirty bomb (an explosive laced with radioactive material) in an attack against America.[4]

Prior to his conviction, Padilla brought a case against the federal government claiming that he had been denied the right of habeas corpus (the right of an individual to petition against unlawful imprisonment). In a 5-to-4 decision, the U.S. Supreme Court found that the case against him had been filed improperly.[5] In 2005, the government indicted Padilla for conspiring against the U.S. with Islamic terrorist groups.

In August 2007, Padilla was found guilty by a civilian jury after a three-month trial. He was later sentenced by the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida to 17 years and four months in prison.[6] Padilla continues to attempt to have his conviction overturned.[7]

3. Lackawanna Six, September 2002. When the FBI arrested Sahim Alwan, Yahya Goba, Yasein Taher, Faysal Galab, Shafal Mosed, and Mukhtar al-Bakri, the press dubbed them the “Lackawanna Six,” the “Buffalo Six,” or the “Buffalo Cell.” Five of the six had been born and raised in Lackawanna, New York.[8] These six American citizens of Yemeni descent were arrested for conspiring with terrorist groups. They had stated that they were going to Pakistan to attend a religious training camp but instead attended an al-Qaeda jihadist camp.

All six pled guilty in 2003 to providing support to al-Qaeda. Goba and al-Bakri were sentenced to 10 years in prison, Taher and Mosed to eight years, Alwan to nine and a half years, and Galab to seven years.[9] Mosed and Galab have since completed their sentences and have been released.[10]

Recent reports indicate that Jaber Elbaneh, one of the FBI’s most wanted and often considered to be a seventh member of the Lackawanna cell, has been captured in Yemen. It remains to be seen, however, whether he will be tried in the U.S., since the U.S. does not have an extradition treaty with Yemen.[11]

4. Iyman Faris, May 2003. Faris is a naturalized U.S. citizen, originally from Kashmir, who was living in Columbus, Ohio. He was arrested for conspiring to use blowtorches to collapse the Brooklyn Bridge, a plot devised after meetings with al-Qaeda leadership including Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.[12] The New York City Police Department learned of the plot and increased police surveillance around the bridge. Faced with the additional security, Faris and his superiors canceled the attack.[13]

Faris pled guilty to conspiracy and providing material support to al-Qaeda and was later sentenced in federal district court to 20 years in prison, the maximum allowed under his plea agreement.[14]

5. Virginia Jihad Network, June 2003. Eleven men were arrested in Alexandria, Virginia, for weapons counts and for violating the Neutrality Acts, which prohibit U.S. citizens and residents from attacking countries with which the United States is at peace. Four of the 11 men pled guilty. Upon further investigation, the remaining seven were indicted on additional charges of conspiring to support terrorist organizations. They were found to have connections with al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and Lashkar-i-Taiba, a terrorist organization that targets the Indian government. The authorities stated that the Virginia men had used paintball games to train and prepare for battle. The group had also acquired surveillance and night vision equipment and wireless video cameras.[15] Two more individuals were later indicted in the plot: Ali al-Timimi, the group’s spiritual leader, and Ali Asad Chandia.

Ali al-Timimi was found guilty of soliciting individuals to assault the United States and sentenced to life in prison. Ali Asad Chandia received 15 years for supporting Lashkar-i-Taiba.[16] Randall Todd Royer, Ibrahim al-Hamdi, Yong Ki Kwon, Khwaja Mahmood Hasan, Muhammed Aatique, and Donald T. Surratt pled guilty and were sentenced to prison terms ranging from three years and 10 months to 20 years. Masoud Khan, Seifullah Chapman, and Hammad Adur-Raheem were found guilty and later sentenced to prison terms ranging from 52 months to life.[17] Both Caliph Basha Ibn Abdur-Raheem and Sabri Benkhala were acquitted at trial.[18]

6. Nuradin M. Abdi, November 2003. Abdi, a Somali citizen living in Columbus, Ohio, was arrested and charged in a plot to bomb a local shopping mall. Abdi was an associate of convicted terrorists Christopher Paul and Iyman Faris and admittedly conspired with the two to provide material support to terrorists. Following his arrest, Abdi admitted to traveling overseas to seek admittance to terrorist training camps, as well as to having met with a Somali warlord associated with Islamists.

Abdi has since pled guilty to conspiracy to provide material support to terrorists, one of the four counts for which he was indicted. He was subsequently sentenced to 10 years in jail per the terms of a plea agreement.[19]

7. Dhiren Barot, August 2004. Seven members of a terrorist cell led by Barot were arrested for plotting to attack the New York Stock Exchange and other financial institutions in New York, Washington, and Newark, New Jersey. They were later accused of planning attacks in England. The plots included a “memorable black day of terror” that would have included detonating a dirty bomb.[20] A July 2004 police raid on Barot’s house in Pakistan yielded a number of incriminating files on a laptop computer, including instructions for building car bombs.[21]

Dhiren Barot pled guilty and was convicted in the United Kingdom for conspiracy to commit mass murder and sentenced to 40 years.[22] However, in May 2007, his sentence was reduced to 30 years.[23] His seven co-conspirators were sentenced to terms ranging from 15 to 26 years on related charges of conspiracy to commit murder and conspiracy to cause explosion.[24]

8. James Elshafay and Shahawar Matin Siraj, August 2004. James Elshafay and Shahawar Matin Siraj, both reportedly self-radicalized, were arrested for plotting to bomb a subway station near Madison Square Garden in New York City before the Republican National Convention.[25] An undercover detective from the New York City Police Department’s Intelligence Division infiltrated the group, providing information to authorities, and later testified against Elshafay and Siraj.[26]

Siraj was convicted and sentenced to 30 years in prison. Elshafay, a U.S. citizen, pled guilty and received a lighter, five-year sentence for testifying against his co-conspirator.[27]

9. Yassin Aref and Mohammad Hossain, August 2004. Two leaders of a mosque in Albany, New York, were charged with plotting to purchase a shoulder-fired grenade launcher to assassinate a Pakistani diplomat.[28] An investigation by the FBI, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, and local police contributed to the arrest. With the help of an informant, the FBI set up a sting that lured Mohammed Hossain into a fake terrorist conspiracy. Hossain brought Yassin Araf, a Kurdish refugee, as a witness. The informant offered details of a fake terrorist plot, claiming that he needed the missiles to murder a Pakistani diplomat in New York City. Both Aref and Hossain agreed to help.[29]

Aref and Hossain were found guilty of money-laundering and conspiracy to conceal material support for terrorism and were sentenced to 15 years in prison.[30]

10. Umer Hayat and Hamid Hayat, June 2005. Umer Hayat, a Pakistani immigrant, and Hamid Hayat, his American son, were arrested in Lodi, California, after allegedly lying to the FBI about Hamid’s attendance at an Islamic terrorist training camp in Pakistan.

Hamid was found guilty of providing material support to terrorists and providing false statements to the FBI.[31] He was sentenced to 24 years in prison for these acts.[32] Umer’s trial ended in a mistrial. He later pled guilty to lying to customs agents in his attempt to carry $28,000 into Pakistan and was sentenced to “time served.”[33]

11. Levar Haley Washington, Gregory Vernon Patterson, Hammad Riaz Samana, and Kevin James, August 2005. The members of the group were arrested in Los Angeles and charged with conspiring to attack National Guard facilities, synagogues, and other targets in the Los Angeles area. Kevin James allegedly founded Jamiyyat Ul-Islam Is-Saheeh (JIS), a radical Islamic prison group, and converted Levar Washington and others to the group’s mission. The JIS allegedly planned to finance its operations by robbing gas stations. After Washington and Patterson were arrested for robbery, police and federal agents began a terrorist investigation, and a search of Washington’s apartment revealed a suspicious target list.[34]

James and Washington pled guilty in December 2007. James was sentenced to 16 years in prison and Washington to 22 years. Patterson received 151 months, while Samana was found unfit to stand trial and was initially detained in a federal prison mental facility. He was later sentenced to 70 months in jail.[35]

12. Michael C. Reynolds, December 2005. Michael C. Reynolds was arrested by the FBI and charged with involvement in a plot to blow up a Wyoming natural gas refinery; the Transcontinental Pipeline, a natural-gas pipeline from the Gulf Coast to New York and New Jersey; and a Standard Oil refinery in New Jersey.[36] He was arrested while trying to pick up a $40,000 payment for planning the attack.[37] Shannen Rossmiller, his purported contact, was a Montana judge who was working with the FBI. The FBI later found explosives in a storage locker in Reynolds’s hometown of Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania.[38] Reynolds claimed that he was working as a private citizen to find terrorists.[39]

Reynolds was convicted of providing material support to terrorists, soliciting a crime of violence, unlawful distribution of explosives, and unlawful possession of a hand grenade. He was sentenced to 30 years in prison.[40]

13. Mohammad Zaki Amawi, Marwan Othman El-Hindi, and Zand Wassim Mazloum, February 2006. Amawi, El-Hindi, and Mazloum were arrested in Toledo, Ohio, for “conspiring to kill or injure people in the Middle East” and providing material support to terrorist organizations. The three men allegedly intended to build bombs for use in Iraq and verbally threatened attacks against President George W. Bush.[41] The investigation was begun with the help of an informant who was approached to help to train the group.[42]

In June 2008, all three were convicted of conspiring to commit acts of terrorism against Americans overseas, including U.S. military personnel in Iraq, and other terrorism-related violations. Amawi was sentenced to 20 years, el-Hindi to 13 years, and Mazloum to approximately eight years.[43]

14. Syed Haris Ahmed and Ehsanul Islam Sadequee, April 2006. Ahmed and Sadequee, from Atlanta, Georgia, were accused of conspiracy, having discussed terrorist targets with alleged terrorist organizations. They allegedly met with Islamic extremists in the U.S. and gathered videotape surveillance of potential targets in the Washington, D.C., area, including the U.S. Capitol and the World Bank headquarters, and sent the videos to a London Islamist group. Ahmed is said also to have traveled to Pakistan with the goal of joining Lashkar-e-Taiba.[44]

Both men were indicted for providing material support to terrorist organizations and pled not guilty.[45] In June 2009, a federal district judge found Ahmed “guilty of conspiring to provide material support to terrorists here and overseas.”[46] Ahmed was subsequently sentenced to 13 years in jail. Sadequee was also found guilty and sentenced to 17 years.[47]

15. Narseal Batiste, Patrick Abraham, Stanley Grant Phanor, Naudimar Herrera, Burson Augustin, Lyglenson Lemorin, and Rotschild Augustine, June 2006. Seven men were arrested in Miami and Atlanta for plotting to blow up the Sears Tower in Chicago, FBI offices, and other government buildings around the country. The arrests resulted from an investigation involving an FBI informant. Allegedly, Batiste was the leader of the group and first suggested attacking the Sears Tower in December 2005.[48]

All of the suspects pled not guilty. On December 13, 2007, Lemorin was acquitted of all charges, but the jury failed to reach a verdict on the other six. [49] The second trial ended in a mistrial in April 2008.[50] In the third trial, the jury convicted five of the men on multiple conspiracy charges and acquitted Herrera on all counts. On November 20, 2009, the five were sentenced to prison terms ranging from six to 13.5 years, with Batiste receiving the highest sentence.[51]

16. Assem Hammoud, July 2006. Conducting online surveillance of chat rooms, the FBI discovered a plot to attack underground transit links between New York City and New Jersey. Eight suspects including Assem Hammoud, an al-Qaeda loyalist living in Lebanon, were arrested for plotting to bomb New York City train tunnels. Hammoud, a self-proclaimed operative for al-Qaeda, admitted to the plot.[52] He was held by Lebanese authorities but was not extradited because the U.S. does not have an extradition treaty with Lebanon. In June 2008, Lebanese authorities released him on bail.[53] He is awaiting trial before a Lebanese military court.

17. Liquid Explosives Plot, August 2006. British law enforcement stopped a terrorist plot to blow up 10 U.S.-bound commercial airliners with liquid explosives.[54] Twenty-four suspects were arrested in the London area. The style of the plot raised speculation that al-Qaeda was behind it, but no concrete evidence has established a link.

The United Kingdom initially charged 15 of the 24 arrested individuals on charges ranging from conspiring to commit murder to planning to commit terrorist acts.[55] Eventually, in April 2008, only eight men were brought to trial. In September, the jury found none of the defendants guilty of conspiring to target aircraft but three guilty of conspiracy to murder.[56] The jury was unable to reach verdicts on four of the men. One man was found not guilty on all counts.[57]

18. Derrick Shareef, December 2006. Shareef was arrested on charges of planning to set off hand grenades in a shopping mall outside Chicago. Shareef reportedly acted alone and was arrested after meeting with an undercover Joint Terrorism Task Force agent. FBI reports indicated that the mall was one of several potential targets, including courthouses, city halls, and government facilities. Shareef, however, settled on attacking a mall in the days immediately preceding Christmas because he believed it would cause the greatest amount of chaos and damage.[58] Shareef was also found to have connections to convicted terrorist Hassan Agujihaad, who was charged with attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction and later sentenced to 35 years in prison.[59]

19. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, March 2007. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, captured in Pakistan in 2003, was involved in a number of terrorist plots and is one of the most senior bin Laden operatives ever captured.[60] He is being held at the U.S. military detention facility in Guantanamo Bay. In March 2007, Mohammed admitted to helping plan, organize, and run the 9/11 attacks and also claimed responsibility for planning the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center and the bombings of nightclubs in Bali in 2002 and a Kenyan hotel. He has stated that he was involved in the decapitation of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl and took responsibility for helping to plan the failed shoe-bomb attack by Richard Reid, along with plots to attack Heathrow Airport, Canary Wharf, Big Ben, various targets in Israel, the Panama Canal, Los Angeles, Chicago, the Empire State building, and U.S. nuclear power stations. He had also plotted to assassinate Pope John Paul II and former President Bill Clinton.

In December 2008, Mohammed and his four co-defendants (Ramzi Binalshibh, Mustafa Ahmad al-Hawsawi, Ali Abd al-Aziz Ali, and Walid Bin Attash) told the military tribunal judge that they wanted to confess and plead guilty to all charges.[61] The judge has approved the guilty plea of Mohammed and two co-defendants but has required mental competency hearings before allowing the other two conspirators to plead guilty. In November 2009, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder announced that Mohammed would be relocated to the United States to face civilian trial in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York, although this relocation has yet to occur.

20. Fort Dix Plot, May 2007. Six men were arrested in a plot to attack Fort Dix, a U.S. Army post in New Jersey. The plan involved using assault rifles and grenades to attack and kill U.S. soldiers. Five of the alleged conspirators had conducted training missions in the nearby Pocono Mountains. The sixth helped to obtain weapons. The arrests were made after a 16-month FBI operation that included infiltrating the group. The investigation began after a store clerk alerted authorities after discovering a video file of the group firing weapons and calling for jihad. The group has no known direct connections to any international terrorist organization.[62]

In December 2008, five of the men were found guilty on the conspiracy charges but were acquitted of charges of attempted murder.[63] Four were also convicted on weapons charges. The five men received sentences ranging from 33 years to life plus 30. The sixth co-defendant pled guilty to aiding and abetting the others in illegal possession of weapons and was sentenced to 20 months in jail.[64]

21. JFK Airport Plot, June 2007. Four men plotted to blow up “aviation fuel tanks and pipelines at the John F. Kennedy International Airport” in New York City. They believed that such an attack would cause “greater destruction than in the Sept. 11 attacks.” Authorities stated that the attack “could have caused significant financial and psychological damage, but not major loss of life.”[65]

Russell Defreitas, the leader of the group, was arrested in Brooklyn. The other three members of the group—Abdul Kadir, Kareem Ibrahim, and Abdel Nur—were detained in Trinidad and extradited in June 2008. Kadir and Nur have links to Islamic extremists in South America and the Caribbean. Kadir was an imam in Guyana, former member of the Guyanese Parliament, and mayor of Linden, Guyana. Ibrahim is a Trinidadian citizen, and Nur is a Guyanese citizen. The men pled not guilty to the charges and are awaiting trial.[66]

22. Hassan Abujihaad, March 2008. Hassan Abujihaad, a former U.S. Navy sailor from Phoenix, Arizona, was convicted of supporting terrorism and disclosing classified information, including the location of Navy ships and their vulnerabilities, to Barbar Ahmad and Syed Talha Ahsan, the alleged administrators of Azzam Publication Web sites (the London organization that provided material support and resources to terrorists). Abujihaad was arrested in March 2007 and pled not guilty to charges of supporting terrorism in April 2007. In May 2008, he was convicted by a jury and sentenced to 10 years in prison.[67] Both Babar Ahmad and Syed Talha Ahsan are being held in Britain on anti-terrorism charges and are fighting extradition to the U.S.[68]

23. Christopher Paul, June 2008. Christopher Paul is a U.S. citizen from Columbus, Ohio. He joined al-Qaeda in the 1990s and was involved in conspiracies to target Americans in the United States and overseas. In 1999, he became connected to an Islamic terrorist cell in Germany, where he was involved in a plot to target Americans at foreign vacation resorts. He later returned to Ohio and was subsequently arrested for conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction—specifically, explosive devices—”against targets in Europe and the United States.” Paul pled guilty to the charges and was sentenced to 20 years in prison.[69]

24. Synagogue Terror Plot, May 2009. On May 20, 2009, the New York Police Department announced the arrest of James Cromitie, David Williams, Onta Williams, and Laguerre Payen for plotting to blow up area Jewish centers and shoot down planes at a nearby Air National Guard Base.[70] The four had attempted to gain access to Stinger missiles and were caught in the act of placing bombs in the buildings and in a car. (The bombs were duds, because undercover agents sold the four defendants fake explosives as part of an ongoing sting operation). All four men have pled not guilty and are awaiting trial.[71]

25. Najibullah Zazi, September 2009 . Zazi, a 24-year-old Afghani, was arrested after purchasing large quantities of chemicals used to make a TATP bomb, the same type of weapon used in the 2005 bombing of the London Underground and the 2001 shoe-bomb plot. Zazi had traveled to Pakistan, where he received instruction in bomb-making and attended an al-Qaeda training camp. Zazi allegedly planned to detonate TATP bombs on the New York City subway.[72]

Najibullah Zazi’s father, Mohammed Wali Zazi, was also indicted for obstructing justice by helping his son cover up plans for his attack. Najibullah pled guilty and remains in jail, while Mohammed pled not guilty and has been freed on bail.[73] Zazi’s guilty plea was the result of a plea bargain, and he awaits sentencing on June 25, 2010, while Mohammed awaits trial.

At least three other individuals have since been arrested on allegations of traveling overseas with Zazi to receive terrorist training and making false statements to authorities.[74] One of them, New York religious leader Ahmad Afzali, has pled guilty to charges of lying to federal agents about informing Zazi that he was being investigated by authorities.[75] Zarein Ahmedzay has also pled guilty to conspiring to use weapons of mass destruction in the foiled plot.[76]


source atlas shrugs

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