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| Why the 'Peaceful Moderate' Muslim 'Majority' is Irrelevant | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 25 2010, 07:42 AM (2,003 Views) | |
| studio | May 27 2010, 03:34 PM Post #151 |
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To be honest keef, it took longer than i thought it would... |
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| ignominius | May 27 2010, 03:35 PM Post #152 |
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Keef , serious discussion. You compare the bible to the Koran and say they are the same. Which clearly say's a) you've never read the bible or b) you are employing a tactic of lying. The bible is not the same as the Koran. The Koran is specifically about killing and killing jews and christians. Where is the equivalent in the bible. The only mention of killing as commanded by Yahweh is a descriptive historical event. Yeshua's last miracle was to heal the ear of the soldier who's ear was cut of by Peter (or Cephas if you prefer). Yeshua's last act before he died was to forgive people. 'Father forgive them for they no not what they do'. Muhammed on his death bed cursed Jews and Christians. Yeshua commanded everyone to love their neighbour as themselves and to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Muhammed had killed anyone who mocked him , Muhammed personally led at least 23 raids on peaceful Meccan caravans stealing, looting, enslaving, and killing. Yawheh says that he is not a man to lie, Allah says he is the best of deceivers. I could go on. Then the so called stories that Muhammed plagiarised off the Jews and Christians. The story of Noah is so different fromthe bibilical story it's a completely different tale. And it can't make up it's mind who was saved on the Ark and who wasn't. What about the story of Abraham and Isaac. The story in the bible makes it quite clear who was to be sacrificed. The Koran doesn't know. The Story of Esther. The chief villain is a man called Haman. In the bible the events are well known and take place in Persia. According to the Koran they take place in Egypt some 4 or 5 hundred years earlier. Then ther is the stories concerning Moses. Apparently the Eqyptians were employing crucifixion 1000years before it was actually invented. again we could go on. The bible is about reconciling man with God. The Koran is about forcing men to submit to God whether they want to or not and usually by the most violent methods. So no the bible and the Koran are not essentially the same, they are diametrically opposed that is why Muslim apologists have had to make up claims about the authenticity of the Bible flying in the face of both secular and Judeo-Christian scholars who can prove otherwise. The same cannot be said of the Koran. Islamic scholars refuse to allow scrutiny of the earliest koran known found in the last few years in a mosque in Yemen. Why? what are they frightened of? Bible Scholars have permitted the close and exacting scrutiny of biblical documents and have passed the inspection. So getting back to your position on say gays. According to the Koran the sentence for being gay is to be thrown off a high mountain. The bible doesn't ordere the killing of homosexuals (and before the atheists try to point me to Deuteronomy - the law given there was for the Jews living in the promised land) it doesn't apply to Christians or to modern jews today. As to the reformation of Christianity, the reformation was actually about interpreting the bible in it's true light and not according to man's interpretation. That is why Christianity remains peaceful today without forced conversion that occurred under the Catholic church during the middle-ages. (and the so-called religous wars of the 16th century were actually political wars that used religion as it's excuse.). Islam was spread by the sword in 400years of rapid expansion - Christianity was spread by word of mouth over the same span i.e. from the death of christ until Constantine was about 400 years later. There is no getting around verses like 9:5 and 9:29 and 9:129 verses taken from almost the last revealed Surah - all commandments to kill the non-beleivers and apostates for all time in all places. |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 03:59 PM Post #153 |
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thats because of that over 40's thread! |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 04:00 PM Post #154 |
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well said cant add to that. |
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| studio | May 27 2010, 04:05 PM Post #155 |
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thought you were slipping up ![]() I think that a troll is somebody who comes on to just shout s**t and cause mayhem. Keefriffhard (Which guitar player is that in reference to?) has just put a counter argument forward. That's exactly what we need. He has been polite and his arguements rounded. He has used conjecture where it has been used at him, and countered fact with fact. Its good reading. I also think that he is dispassionate with his reasoning, and that's always a bonus.. Pass the popcorn, my hole is very comfortable today
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| lankyboy | May 27 2010, 04:10 PM Post #156 |
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A good post mate, which neatly sums up exactly how I am feeling at the moment. |
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| keefriffhard | May 27 2010, 04:10 PM Post #157 |
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Right but why is that a reason to jump up my arse? All i asked was is violence REALLY the answer? If you think it is as you've stated well good for you, go ahead, i was just having a discussion, don't presume to know what i'm thinking or where i'm coming from unless i've said so.
I wasn't saying they were the same, actually i was responding to your saying that they were COMPLETELY different, which they're not in fact the fundamental difference really is in two things, a) muslims don't believe Jesus is the son of God b) Muslims believe in another prophet. Most of the rest is EXTREMELY similar, same prophets (bar none) same stories about them, same basic moral outlook, same lots of things.
This is part of the criticism of most abrahamic religions though, i mean, wasn't God pissed with jews for the whole thing with Moses and the golden calf and seeking rebellion against God under the mount and being left in the wilderness for 40 years or something? i'm not sure exactly, my memory is sketchy on these things. And Christians cite jews as, as Lenny Bruce said (my all time favorite jew) those who killed our Lord (who was also a jew) "and there should be a statute of limitations on that crime On a personal level i think its all crap but we're talking about scripture here.
Thats simply not true. There was i think a whole 13 year period in Mecca where Muhammad was 100% docile in the propagation of his word even in the face of abuse and attack.
First of all, Allah, God, Jehovah are essentially names for the same entity just a Yawheh, Isa and Jesus are...secondly the best of decievers means that...OK, an evil person believes he is right in his wrongdoings, God punishes the wicked and is omniscient and so, in effect, is decieving that person i.e. he is responsible for what makes that person blind to the truth, in an overall sense. There's similar parts of the bible and if you'd like i can dig them out for you. It basically means like...hypocrites think they are decievers and have one over the noble but they don't because you can't decieve God/Allah or whatever.
He knew all of this stuff and managed to write it down despite being an illiterate Arab? Where was he gettin it all from?
I've not seen them do so and, at least in my younger days, i was privy to quite a fair few such debates and two things struck me most of all...firstly, neither side has a proper understanding of each other faith and secondly, they seemed to...only have an awareness of their position in relation to the other, as opposed to what they stand of independent of enmity or conflict.
As far as i was aware, homosexuality was not allowed according to the bible...why was it not allowed for the jews in the promised land? And hows it MY position on gays? When did i say i had something against gays?
Barring the aforementioned forced conversions...and what about the crusades? Anyway, my point isn't that Islam or Christianity is better, my point is these are aincent religions from aincent times that, in my opinion at least, are not compatible with the modern world unless you alter them beyong recognition and if you're gonna do that its as good as starting from scratch. But if we're gonna allow em, as we should being a tolerant society, we have to understand this and not demonise one when the other has, when looked at closely, just as despicable tenets in some quarters. The entire Old Testament is almost intolerable for modern society, as is the Qu'ran. |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 04:15 PM Post #158 |
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S.H.I.E.L.D:previouse post. Homophobia is not specific to Islam on that we can agree, but Islam is both a religion, and a political ideology with its own written law, and that law is used time and time again to execute homosexuals. Christianity may be a religion (not one that I would ever subscribe too) but it does not have the political Ideology and system of law that Islam has. keefriffhard:answer. Right, so if we agree its not specific to Islam and its only been within the last century or so that homosexuality has been legal in this country is it not something that would best be pursued by educating, dialogue, common understanding rather than declaring some sort of secular holy war? I think you'll find Christianity has a very specific ideology and system of law sir. S.H.I.E.L.D:answer Western democracy and society is always developing new laws and striving for a better more equal system, homosexuality was both embraced and vilified in the past, until we arrived at the point of equality we find ourselves in today. Islamic Law hasn't changed since Its inception, and still seeks to slaughter Homosexuals among others. Unlike the early Muslims the early Christians did not constitute a political entity or state, and so they had no responsibility for framing or administering laws. What they found, however, especially those of them who lived outside Palestine, was that in the Roman empire there was a system of law owing nothing to revelation, and yet roughly in accordance with the ethico legal parts of the Mosaic law. When the Roman empire became officially Christian in the early fourth century, it already had a system of law which was in general acceptable to Christians, and there was no need to create a new system of law based solely on the Mosaic law as modified by the teaching of Jesus. Living in the Roman empire made it clear to Christians that sound human reason, apart from revelation, could reach a satisfactory system of law. Thus in medieval Christendom and in modern Western Christendom until the present century, although the laws of the various states were expected to be in accordance with biblical teaching, it was not considered necessary to show how a particular law was derived from scriptural texts S.H.I.E.L.D:previouse post. There is no point in trying to compare Christianity to Islam because they are two completely different animals, and quite honestly most people in the West couldn't care less about Christianity other than its cultural attachment to present day secular society. Which is why Christmas is more a festive event than a religious one. Therefore you should compare Islamic Law in this case to British Law not Christianity. keefriffhard:answer. No they're not they have umpteen glaring similarities and their scriptures tell most of the same storys. Right, so the only way you can tolerate a faith is when it doesn't behave like a faith? S.H.I.E.L.D:answer. The contrast between the Islamic belief: that all laws should be based, on God's commands and the Christian readiness to accept sound human reason as a source of law parallel to revelation is one of the greatest differences between the two religions, and raises the _question whether it is possible for Muslims to cooperate in the field of law with Western democracies whose laws developed as a result of Christians acceptance that sound human reason is a good basis in which to develop a system of law. S.H.I.E.L.D:previouse post. If an Illiterate cockney said he was visited by an angle and then began to write a new holy book with its own political ideology and law, which included a penalty of death for Pakistanis for being, well, Pakistanis, how would you feel about this? keefriffhard:answer. quite amused to be honest Quite apart from anything else, i'd be interested to see an illiterate man write a book. I can't see Puffin picking it up.S.H.I.E.L.D:answer. It has been part of the Muslim’s belief, based on traditions, that Prophet Muhammad was illiterate. God says in verse 29:51 that the Quran itself is the only miracle of the prophet. By alleging illiteracy for him, traditional Muslims were trying to make the claim even "more miraculous," for a book of such literary quality was sent down through an illiterate man. Well you right it's not good enough for Puffin but the Muslims seem to like it. Do you understand the parallel now? S.H.I.E.L.D:previouse post. If you saw a growing population of these new believers who at best say nothing against these laws and at worst promote them would you feel safe? If you could feel the contempt of those people against you because not only are you not one of them, but a Pakistani, and considered less than human, would you welcome these people? If you saw whole areas filled with the people of this cult with their newly built temples, many of which preach hatred against the non believers and Pakistanis, would want to stay in that area or leave? keefriffhard:answer. have you ever been to a mosque? S.H.I.E.L.D:answer. Yes I have been to a Mosque, but just in case you haven't, here is some additional information for you. The leading preacher of a hard line Islamic sect which controls almost half of British mosques delivers a message filled with anger at non-Muslims Click here to read more Hamza 'preached of duty to kill non-believers [url=Ha http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hamza-preached-of-duty-to-kill-nonbelievers- mza 'preached of duty to kill non-believers]Click here to read more[/URL] Mosque 'has 20-year history of extremist recruitment' Click here to read more Birmingham Muslim Cleric Hate Click here to read more S.H.I.E.L.D:previouse post. If they tried to build one of their temples on a site where extremist elements of their religious political Ideology killed thousands of non believers just to rub your nose in it, would you say "well why not, after all they are the religion of peace?" keefriffhard:answer. How can you pass judgement on another motive like that? Maybe its just a house of prayer...just because MLK was shot by a white fundamentalist Christian should they start tearing down churches where he died? Of course not. S.H.I.E.L.D:answer. I don't remember reading anywhere that James Earl Ray was a "white fundamentalist Christian" but one thing I can tell you for sure is that Martin Luther King was a true Christian minister who stood for equality and justice for all peoples, which is both very Christian and not very Islamic. And my guess is, he would love the idea of a Christian church built on the place he was killed, and so would all his followers. Regarding James Earl Ray, In 1997, King's son Dexter met with Ray, and publicly supported his efforts to obtain a retrial. Loyd Jowers, a restaurant owner in Memphis, was brought to civil court and sued as being part of a conspiracy to murder Martin Luther King. Jowers was found legally liable, and the King family accepted $100 in restitution, an amount chosen to show that they were not pursuing the case for financial gain. Dr. William Pepper, a friend of King in the last year of his life, represented Ray in a televised mock trial in an attempt to get him the trial he never had. Pepper later represented the King family in a wrongful death civil trial against Loyd Jowers. The King family has since concluded that Ray did not have anything to do with the murder of Martin Luther King. S.H.I.E.L.D:previouse post. The reality is this, people are beginning to wake up to the fact that political Islam is barbaric and Horrific. Democracy is not perfect, but at least it is in a constant phase of development, and has contributed more to this world then Islam could ever comprehend. Islam was fortunate to have taken over some of the greatest Civilisations in ancient History, Persia and Egypt, also it had access to the greatest works of ancient Greece and Rome lost to Europe after the fall of Rome, and finally when the Islamic Turks conquered Constantinople. And yet with all the advantages they had, with all the knowledge gained from the crem de la crem of the Ancient world, including the vast amounts of oil under their desert sand and Allah on their side, Islam as managed to plunge itself back into the dark ages. keefriffhard:answer. People are not bound to live as presedent prescribes, thats why Greeks, Turks, Romans all have contributed something of themselves to the world of culture. Muslims are responsible for a great many contributions to contemporary culture too as i'm sure you're aware. S.H.I.E.L.D:answer. I would say that most of what Islam contributed to world was due more to the fact that it had absorbed peoples and knowledge from the great Ancient civilisations like, Egypt and Persia who's cultures were ultimately destroyed by the Muslims. Think of the great things those cultures may have given to the world if they still lived. If Islam failed to conquered them it would have quickly developed into backward ideology of a desert people. It was from these great people and civilisations that Islam had a spark of enlightenment, a debt that Islam repaid by destroying the cultures of those countries and leaving them with various degrees of the barbaric systems they have now. Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post |
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| Battle of Lepanto | May 27 2010, 04:24 PM Post #159 |
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To KEEF No one is going after all Muslims. Your powers of debate are somewhat lacking, your analogies of David Copeland absurd. ISLAM is a violent death cult - the very antithesis of the Judeo-Christian ethic. Superficially there may seem to be some similarities but under the surface they have nothing in common. It is an immoral belief system. Nothing you can say will change that. Eventually its free practice in the West will have to come to an end. |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 04:31 PM Post #160 |
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it wont be when HS gets on no offence intended to anyone |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 04:35 PM Post #161 |
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Hahahah That killed me |
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| Battle of Lepanto | May 27 2010, 04:43 PM Post #162 |
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Like what exactly? Wasn't Averroes a convert? The number system comes from Sanskrit not Arabic and the Koran adds nothing to our understanding of mankind. It certainly adds nothing to the Bible and Gospels - in fact it is the antithesis of them as I said above. No, Islam has not made that cultural contribution which so many like to claim, and it certainly hasn't added anything ethical. The idea that Islam kept alive the light of knowledge and science during the Dark Ages is a total exaggeration. Or can you enlighten us as to the wonderful contribution of Islam? Islam destroyed the cultures it dominated - Hindu and Persian in particular. Any artistic or poetic period in Islam's history was the appropriation of other cultures. |
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| keefriffhard | May 27 2010, 04:53 PM Post #163 |
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But this is exactly my point, its not been legal in this part of the world for very long at all and although the laws of Islam haven't changed as yet, the attitudes of its believers has and this is the first step because eventually, law moulds itself to the will of the people, its inevitable. Thats not to say we should sit back and do nothing, we should say our piece...i just don't believe aggression is the way.
the money shot is in bold ![]()
So one says follow God...and the other says its OK to follow sound human reason...as long as its parallel to revelation...so where's the difference? There isn't much of one, is there?
I was aware of that, thank you...whats your actual point with that paragraph though? That Muhammad was in fact literate or...?
the reason i was asking is because you seem to be inferring that they are some sort of assembly lines for evil when i've been to a number of mosques and all i got was bored. I can cite Roman Catholic institutions where child molestation goes on but you don't see me running down the Catholic Church...the responsible should be bought to book and the innocent should be left alone. And to say Islam has offered and contributed nothing to human history is just ridiculous and i'm sure a person of your wealth of knowledge on human history must know that that isn't true. In the field of science alone muslims have made some pretty big contributions...astronomy, the arts, industry etc I'd have to read up on them and refresh my memory as i've not given a f**k about such things for the last 12 years of my life but its there and i'm sure you're aware of it. Simply in bringing civilisation to arabia, a culture that would bury daughters at birth, Islam has been invaluable. The James Earl Ray analogy was a bit of a clusterf**k on my part but it was an offhand example at best.
Powers of debate are lacking? You'll have to excuse me, my analogies are getting a bit off kilter, you'll have to excuse me, i've been on here two days and i've made nearly 100 posts, all of the specific and categoric and pointed, i've put up with all manner of abuse despite being perfectly polite and respectful and i've not left one sensible post directed towards me, you'll have to excuse me if i make a mistake or two at this point. And i marvel at a person passing judgement on my powers of debate while at the same time making nothing but blanket statements. "nothing you can say can change that" there's an avenue for ripe debate if ever i saw one
Any logical reasonable human being would fall over laughing at your claim here. Even if they knew NOTHING about Islam they'd still, by virtue of sheer logic, be aware that that volume of people through that much time couldn't possibly have made no contribution to society, its just impossible and non-sensical but to be honest, at the moment i'm too tired to go digging around listing every single muslim achievement for human advancement, you'll have to excuse me, as i've said before its been me against the world for the last 2 days and 100 or so posts.. Edited by keefriffhard, May 27 2010, 05:06 PM.
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| ENUFisENUF | May 27 2010, 04:56 PM Post #164 |
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Keef has argued well and politely but has, it would seem, intentionally missed the entire point at the same time. It is Islam and muslims who must adapt to their adopted country, not the other way round. How many centuries does it take for these droplets of moderate muslims protesting against their brothers to become a monsoon? Why is it so noble to spare ones' enemies? What, other than a romantic poet's vision, does this achieve? The EDL is narky about Islam because we have watched this country and Europe bend over backwards to accomodate it in the name of tolerance only to have their face rubbed in it at every trun. We have sat silently by as mad mussies protest violently over cartoons. We have said nothing as mussies burn literature, perform honour killings, genital mutilation and polygamy. We have sat on our hands as British Common Law has allowed sharia courts to be established in Britain. We have listened over and over and over again to muslims talking about the good of the ''MUSLIM COMMUNITY'' when they should be talking about the good of the entire community. They see themselves as a seperate entity to the general community and talk about community cohesion, there is not even a pretence at assimilation. It is self imposed apartheid. We have watched happy multi ethnic communities turn into muslim ghettoes. We have seen the rise of street jihadis in the form of muslim youth gangs. We have seen the disproportionate crime rate the muslim community is responsible for. We have seen multiple daily Islamic terrorist acts across the globe. We have experienced terrorism on our shores and have thwarted many other potential acts. We are told that we do not understand the qur'an when we quote one of the many hundreds of passages of intoilerance and hate. We are told we don't interpret the words correctly and then, in the next breath we are told that the word of god as seen in the qur'an cannot be altered by man. We are told over and over that Islam is the religion of peace yet we see daily that it isn't. All we ever get are excuses and unrealistic hand wringing platitudes. The time for listening and tolerance has been and gone, the time for action is now. |
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“Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.”-Thomas Jefferson | |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 05:05 PM Post #165 |
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Your confidence in my abilities is once more unfounded. I referred to the BBC survey in post 26, and it wasn't taken up I linked to it in post 96 and it was ignored I referred to it being ignored in 112 Keef is still ignoring it and claiming people's opinions can't be measured. There is no hope of any progress in this debate. He is a wind-up merchant. I'm guessing he and Studio are in cahoots. Studio probably brought him here. I salute the rest of you and your preparedness to go round and round in circles with someone who keeps basing the force of his argument on his personal experience. You might as well be arguing with someone over whether or not Marmite tastes good. |
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| Battle of Lepanto | May 27 2010, 05:08 PM Post #166 |
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KEEF There is no debate to be had. Only how to deal with the problem that the West now faces. I suggest that you discuss with your co-religionists how best to bring Enlightenment to the muslim world, or how you neutralise the 'extremist' and dominant theories of the clerics. I am indeed aware of how difficult that will be, and you have my sympathies. Advances in astrology/science/maths were built upon the steps made by the cultures that Islam then decimated. They had nothing to do with Islam as a belief system. Besides which there have been no contributions, if you wish to call them such, since the 9th or 10th Century. Can you give me something more recent? You seem quite big on claims but offer no examples: neither of 'moderate' voices of Islam or, now, of the great contribution made to humankind. That's is why I question your debating powers. You have provided me no evidence for your claims. Just smileys as far as I can see. Edited by Battle of Lepanto, May 27 2010, 05:22 PM.
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| keefriffhard | May 27 2010, 05:11 PM Post #167 |
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give us a chance, blimey i'm going f**kin blind here, how am i a wind up merchant, by giving an opposing view? I suppose its simpler when its just a bunch of self congratulatory backpatting, you might as well just talk to yourself in a mirror... And i love this amateur sleuth bit everytime i disagree on here, whats so impossible to comprehend about the fact that someone has an opposing view? Post 26, 96 and 112 yeah? i'll have a peek...excuse me if i've missed a spot Mother Hubbard, i've been taking a lot on as i'm sure you've noticed. |
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| Battle of Lepanto | May 27 2010, 05:12 PM Post #168 |
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Well said. |
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| Battle of Lepanto | May 27 2010, 05:17 PM Post #169 |
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I think most people know that these 'debates' just go round and round in circles. We've all seen it all before. And 'self-congratulatory backpatting' isn't what goes on here. The nature of the problem is discussed in detail as well as how best to deal with it. People come and go, if they don't think it's for them. This isn't a forum for 'interfaith' dialogue and mutual understanding. It's gone beyond that now. Edited by Battle of Lepanto, May 27 2010, 05:19 PM.
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| lancashirelad | May 27 2010, 05:22 PM Post #170 |
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Keef you rabbit on like some mad professor, why dont you try a simple experiment. Wear a t-shirt with 'i dont like Jesus' on in London, Manchester or Liverpool see what reaction you get, then try the same thing in any Islamic country with 'i dont like Mohammed' t-shirt on and compare the response, maybe this may answer some off the questions youd like an answer to. |
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| keefriffhard | May 27 2010, 05:22 PM Post #171 |
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Right, i wasn't aware of that, i didn't know it was just a "get Islam" free for all, i thought there might be some sort of human discussion and debate from opposing perspectives, i was completely unaware that what i'm doing here is something thats frowned upon. @HOMOSAPIEN: I've just read that statistic, i find that shocking. Its very difficult to argue with a statistic but i do genuinely find that quite shocking and...i can't really say its something i've encountered in my travels. What was the stat again? young muslims are 3x more extremist or 3x more likely to be extremists or...?
Well what do you want me to do, not reply to the people who respond to my posts? Edited by keefriffhard, May 27 2010, 05:24 PM.
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| Battle of Lepanto | May 27 2010, 05:24 PM Post #172 |
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No need to go to a Muslim country to judge the reaction. Just try the 'I don't like Mohamed' T-shirt in London, Birmingham and Manchester. |
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| lancashirelad | May 27 2010, 05:27 PM Post #173 |
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Aye Tv 175 your right there pal. |
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| ENUFisENUF | May 27 2010, 05:27 PM Post #174 |
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lol, yes, wear a ''I don't like Mohammed'' t-shirt in east london for an evening and keep the ambulance service number on speed dial. |
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“Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.”-Thomas Jefferson | |
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| Battle of Lepanto | May 27 2010, 05:31 PM Post #175 |
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It's not a "get Islam free-for-all" either. That's rather intellectually dishonest of you. There is a threat, it gets discussed. There is little debate to be had with apologists for Islamists, or indeed Islam in general. And whilst some people here may take occasional interest in going over aspects of the debate with people of other views, I suspect that ultimately no one gives a f**k whether you reply or not. Edited by Battle of Lepanto, May 27 2010, 05:33 PM.
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| Battle of Lepanto | May 27 2010, 05:37 PM Post #176 |
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But you were quite right to reduce the matter to such a simple experiment. This country has a long, painful, bloody and glorious history in the fight to establish freedom of conscience for Englishmen and women. - going back many, many centuries. That we should have permitted such an intolerant faith to flourish in our midst - one which imposes religious intolerance on Englishmen and women - is a total betrayal of that history. Edited by Battle of Lepanto, May 27 2010, 05:39 PM.
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| keefriffhard | May 27 2010, 05:45 PM Post #177 |
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Right, sorry, so its not a get Islam free for all but debate is pointless? Right, OK, got'cha
Well they must give a little bit of a f**k otherwise they wouldn't address me unless they've got even less to do with their time than me (which would be shocking LOL) |
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| ignominius | May 27 2010, 06:01 PM Post #178 |
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Kreef you are wrong wrong wrong. Isa is the not the same name for yeshua. There is a perfectly good arabic equivalent to the Hebrew/Aramaic name, but Muhammed chose Isa which is Esau and nothing to do with yeshua. Muhammed had several people killed who mocked him its right there in the sirrat The apostle said, "Who will deal with this rascal for me?" Whereupon Salim b. Umayr, brother of B. Amr b. Auf, one of the "weepers", went forth and killed him. Umama b. Muzayriya said concerning that: You gave the lie to God's religion and the man Ahmad! [Muhammad] By him who was your father, evil is the son he produced! A "hanif" gave you a thrust in the night saying "Take that Abu Afak in spite of your age!" Though I knew whether it was man or jinn Who slew you in the dead of night (I would say naught). (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasulullah (The Life of Muhammad), translated by Alfred Guillaume [Oxford University Press, Karachi, tenth impression 1995], p. 675) That was one man who mocked Muhammed. What about an old women who was tied between two camels and torn apart. What about the poetess and mother murdered in front of her children even as she was feeding one, at the command of the perfect man, Muhammed - all because she mocked him in a poem? When the apostle heard what she had said he said, "Who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?" Umayr b. Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her. In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he [Muhammad] said, "You have helped God and His apostle, O Umayr!" When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, "Two goats won't butt their heads about her", so Umayr went back to his people. These are from Islams own sources...so the truth is Muhammed murdered people he didn't like. Can the same be true of Yeshua of course not. Which one is a better role model for society, a man who can stand being mocked and has his detractors killed or a man who is mocked but forgives them. As for the name Yahweh, when God Revealed himself to Moses he told moses his sacred name....I AM or I AM Always - which translated from English into Hebrew is Yahweh. Is Allah the sacred name of Yahweh, no it's not. It is either a contraction of Al-Ilah the God or it's an actual name , the same name as the principle pagan god of the Arabs in Mecca. As for Muhammed being peaceful whilst in Mecca, in his first few years as a 'prophet', he amassed a mere handful of followers. Not nearly enough to strike back at the Meccans who mocked him. After his relocation to Medina, he became a powerful warlord. Once he was strong enough he not only took over Mecca but exacted his revenge on those who had mocked him. The facts are against you in this arguement Keef old friend. |
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| ENUFisENUF | May 27 2010, 06:03 PM Post #179 |
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Kafir
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There are none so blind as those who will not see, Keef. Debate is pointless because it goes round and round in circles and ''your side'' ignores the points made by ''our side''. Just like with all religions, ''your side'' uses circular arguments, thought terminating cliches and strawman arguments but very little rational debate. It often can not supply evidence to back its assertions either. You keep failing to address salient points and, instead, rely on emotive appeals to some retarded version of decency. If you have time, can you comment individually on the problems I have outlined in my above post? |
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“Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.”-Thomas Jefferson | |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 06:05 PM Post #180 |
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Being rude and being a troll are two completely different things. You are on the troll radar. |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 06:06 PM Post #181 |
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Keefriffhard,[naz] or what ever your name is, nothing you said about your childhood adds up. Like I said before I've lived next door to Muslims, so I know some things about them. If you really were brought up by Muslim parents, there is no way on Gods earth you would have turned out the way you have. I also noticed when you turned up, secular Muslim made an appearance also. Could be a coincidence and another thing I think your white and full of s**t. Your trousers must be bursting at the seams. I think we are over feeding you way too much. Goodbye from me.
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| ignominius | May 27 2010, 06:17 PM Post #182 |
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Forget trying to compare Islam and Christianity the two are chalk and cheese. Instead focus on Islam alone in the debate. Ask yourself some salient points. Is it right that freedom of thought and choice are banned in Islam. If Islam is true and Allah is the one true God of the Arabs, why must he kill people who decide that they don't want to follow him any more. The apostates as they are known. If Allah already has a unpleasant future in eternity having their skin burned off them and boiling water poured down their throats for this people surely there is no need to have them murdered. Indeed how can man know that Allah doens't decide to change the Apostates beliefs and have him come back to Islam/Submission? Has not the accolyte committed a huge sin taking the life of someone that Allah has decided may well go to paradise. According to the Haddith and the Koran , Allah has very little interest in his creation, but he is interested enough to have them all worshipping him. Does he want them worshipping because they actually believe in Allah and his benificents or because they are forced to do so with the threat of decapitation. Would a true god want forced worship? If he wanted all men and women to worship him why did he give humanity free-will. Surely it would be better to have given them no will at all, but that they obeyed every command without question? Try answering those questions honestly, mull over them and then decide if Islam is really a religion of a god named Allah or whether it's the creation of a clever but warped individual who had malignant narcissist disorder. Ask yourself does Allah spend any time in paradise with those who have won a place their through blowing people up, or whether he spends all his time in hell having fun torturing the souls of unbelievers. Would a pure God who has no evil want to spend his time torturing? |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 06:38 PM Post #183 |
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Hope this helps explain some of it ![]()
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| General Pershing | May 27 2010, 07:00 PM Post #184 |
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My sentiments exactly. Way too much! |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 07:26 PM Post #185 |
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I wasted a fair bit of my precious time reading keefs post last night. He or she is so full of hypocrisies, one wonders where to start, but hey, I have better things to do with my time than waste it on someone with an alter ego. (No offence meant when I write he/she, it is because I am not convinced keefy babe is in fact a male. At times keef's posts come across as being quite effeminite, just my opinion of course.) Do I believe this poster to be genuinely who he/she says he/she is? Nah, certainly not. There are more holes in his/her story and and mostly nonsensical narcissistic ramblings than a flipping tea strainer. Do I believe he/she comes from a muslim family? Nah! I see nothing whatsoever in his/her postings which give credence to his/her story. If you have time to waste, then keep feeding this persons ego, bfn. |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 07:27 PM Post #186 |
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Are you a fooking idiot? You think I WANT violence on the streets of England? I don't presume anything you are thinking. To be quite honest I couldn't give a fook. I told you I'm not bending any more. I'm not bending or going to piss my time away going around in circles defending my feelings about what I have seen happen over the last 25 years. I have bigger trolls to harpoon. Later. |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 07:30 PM Post #187 |
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your right again pal, these people come on here then conveniently ignore the facts you put before them.they dont seem to be able to drop the preconcieved ideas they have. they dont seem to expect a coherant argument with links and facts, it stumps them. |
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| Bro | May 27 2010, 07:31 PM Post #188 |
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@ Scott_Lee , Thanks mate that made me giggle lots.
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| Battle of Lepanto | May 27 2010, 07:54 PM Post #189 |
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Kafir
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It was Private Eye's spoof lefty, Dave Spart, from Neasden University, formerly World of Leather. Edited by Battle of Lepanto, May 27 2010, 07:56 PM.
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ANTI-JIHADIST FREE-THINKER | |
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| General Pershing | May 27 2010, 07:57 PM Post #190 |
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f**kin' hell, mind me never to start another topic about moderate muslims on this place again, it's been a bit of roller coaster since our new pal Keefer showed up. I don't think I've heard so much drivel since the Muslim cleric in this video: |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 08:27 PM Post #191 |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 08:52 PM Post #192 |
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It's lovely and quiet. I thank you all for your patience. I'm sure Keef Richards will be back. His average posting rate yesterday was 1 per hour. That went up to 2 per hour today. I doubt he's reached his climax yet. Although he might have cramp in his hand. Any longer and he risks going blind. Strange coincidence how he and Studio both have musical names. Could they be related? |
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| ENUFisENUF | May 27 2010, 08:57 PM Post #193 |
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Kafir
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I'm just a little surprised that a bloke allegedly raised in a pakistani muslim household names himself after a drug abusing, womanising, alcoholic rocker. Still, the Stones at their drunkest still sound better than the best Pakistani music....it's all whang, clang,screech, twang, blang, blurt with a drum tempo that would cause epilepsy. |
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“Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.”-Thomas Jefferson | |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 09:20 PM Post #194 |
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f**kin' hell, mind me never to start another topic about moderate muslims on this place again, it's been a bit of roller coaster since our new pal Keefer showed up. I don't think I've heard so much drivel since the Muslim cleric in this video: haha class
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 09:21 PM Post #195 |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 11:39 PM Post #196 |
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S.H.I.E.L.D:previous post. Unlike the early Muslims the early Christians did not constitute a political entity or state, and so they had no responsibility for framing or administering laws. What they found, however, especially those of them who lived outside Palestine, was that in the Roman empire there was a system of law owing nothing to revelation, and yet roughly in accordance with the ethico legal parts of the Mosaic law. When the Roman empire became officially Christian in the early fourth century, it already had a system of law which was in general acceptable to Christians, and there was no need to create a new system of law based solely on the Mosaic law as modified by the teaching of Jesus. Living in the Roman empire made it clear to Christians that sound human reason, apart from revelation, could reach a satisfactory system of law. Thus in medieval Christendom and in modern Western Christendom until the present century, although the laws of the various states were expected to be in accordance with biblical teaching, it was not considered necessary to show how a particular law was derived from scriptural texts[/quote] keefriffhard:answer. the money shot is in bold ![]() S.H.I.E.L.D:previous post. The contrast between the Islamic belief: that all laws should be based, on God's commands and the Christian readiness to accept sound human reason as a source of law parallel to revelation is one of the greatest differences between the two religions, and raises the _question whether it is possible for Muslims to cooperate in the field of law with Western democracies whose laws developed as a result of Christians acceptance that sound human reason is a good basis in which to develop a system of law. keefriffhard:answer So one says follow God...and the other says it's OK to follow sound human reason...as long as its parallel to revelation...so where's the difference? There isn't much of one, is there? S.H.I.E.L.D:answer to above 2. The money shot is this: "it was not considered necessary to show how a particular law was derived from scriptural texts" as is the case with Islamic Law. Example: Let's say the bible says homosexuality is wrong. The law makers then depending on factors like national culture, social evolution, and politics of the day will, use what they see, as logic, and sound reasoning to pass laws regarding in this case Homosexuality. This system has continually evolved over the years to the point where homosexuality in law in this country is no longer a crime. Under Islamic law the system has evolved over the years from stoning homosexuals to death to err, stoning homosexuals to death. Let's say the bible says adultery is wrong, The law then depending on factors like national culture, social evolution, and politics of the day will, use what it sees as logic and sound reasoning to pass laws regarding Adultery, so This system has continually evolved over the years until Adultery at this point in time it is no longer a crime. Under Islamic Law the system has evolved over the years from stoning Adulterers to death to, well err, stoning Adulterers to death. Let's say for arguments sake that the bible says you marry a six year old child and have sex with her when she is 9 years old. The law then depending on factors like national culture, social evolution, and politics of the day will, use what it sees as logic and sound reasoning, to pass laws regarding in this case marriage and sex with a child. This system has continually evolves over the years until the age of consent became 16 years (in order to protect the child) and likewise regarding marriage. Under Islamic Law the system has evolved over the years from marrying a child and having legal sex with her to, err well mm, marrying a child and having legal sex with her. do you see the difference now? S.H.I.E.L.D:previouse post It has been part of the Muslim’s belief, based on traditions, that Prophet Muhammad was illiterate. God says in verse 29:51 that the Quran itself is the only miracle of the prophet. By alleging illiteracy for him, traditional Muslims were trying to make the claim even "more miraculous," for a book of such literary quality was sent down through an illiterate man. keefriffhard:answer. I was aware of that, thank you...whets your actual point with that paragraph though? That Muhammad was in fact literate or...? S.H.I.E.L.D:asnwer Well let's have a look at what I originally wrote again and see if you still can't work it out. what follows is a previouse post to my post above. If an Illiterate cockney said he was visited by an angle and then began to write a new holy book with its own political ideology and law, which included a penalty of death for Pakistanis for being, well, Pakistanis, how would you feel about this? If you saw a growing population of these new believers who at best say nothing against these laws and at worst promote them would you feel safe? If you could feel the contempt of those people against you because not only are you not one of them, but a Pakistani, and considered less than human, would you welcome these people? If you saw whole areas filled with the people of this cult with their newly built temples, many of which preach hatred against the non believers and Pakistanis, would want to stay in that area or leave? If they tried to build one of their temples on a site where extremist elements of their religious political Ideology killed thousands of non believers just to rub your nose in it, would you say "well why not, after all they are the religion of peace?" Can anyone other than me understand the point I'm making here or is keefriffhard just wasting my time? S.H.I.E.L.D: privious post Yes I have been to a Mosque keefriffhard:answer the reason I was asking is because you seem to be inferring that they are some sort of assembly lines for evil when I've been to a number of mosques and all I got was bored. S.H.I.E.L.D:answer. I wasn't inferring anything, all I said was I've been to a Mosque, and gave you factual information about the many Mosques that are being used to spread hated of homosexuals, Jews and non Muslims, in this country. none of which you commented on. keefriffhard:said I can cite Roman Catholic institutions where child molestation goes on but you don't see me running down the Catholic Church...the responsible should be bought to book and the innocent should be left alone. S.H.I.E.L.D:answer. I can do the same thing regarding the Roman Catholics so what? but can you produce countless videos and news paper articles where the priests preach child molestation in church to their congregation? I can produce countless videos and news paper articles online where imams preach child abuse, killing of Jews Homosexuals and non Muslims. Even Mohammed had sex with a 9 year old girl. If he was alive now he would be on the sex offenders register, served a prison sentence, and be seen as the vilest of human beings. But of course it's not really child abuse because they were married. The way It seems to me, is that if catholic priests converted to Islam married a few children, then they could abuse the children all they liked because under Islamic law it's ok. Nows good time look at the money shot again remember? "It was not considered necessary to show how a particular law was derived from scriptural texts" as is the case with Islamic Law So if the priests decide to convert to Islam then marry a few children in an Islamic country. what does Islamic law do to prevent child abuse from happening? well err.. nothing because the answer can be derived from the scriptural text, and we all know what that answer will be. Here in the west they would go to jail period, along with Mohammed. keefriffhard:said. And to say Islam has offered and contributed nothing to human history is just ridiculous and I'm sure a person of your wealth of knowledge on human history must know that that isn't true. In the field of science alone Muslims have made some pretty big contributions...astronomy, the arts, industry etc I'd have to read up on them and refresh my memory as I've not given a f**k about such things for the last 12 years of my life but it's there and I'm sure you're aware of it. Simply in bringing civilisation to Arabia, a culture that would bury daughters at birth, Islam has been invaluable. S.H.I.E.L.D:answer. I didn't say Islam contributed nothing to the world, I gave you the reasons behind what they gave and I quote. "I would say that most of what Islam contributed to world was due more to the fact that it had absorbed peoples and knowledge from the great Ancient civilisations like, Egypt and Persia who's cultures were ultimately destroyed by the Muslims. Think of the great things those cultures may have given to the world if they still lived. If Islam failed to conquered them it would have quickly developed into backward ideology of a desert people. It was from these great people and civilisations that Islam had a spark of enlightenment, a debt that Islam repaid by destroying the cultures of those countries and leaving them with various degrees of a barbaric system they have now." We Lost 2 of the most magnificent cultures in the history of mankind and what did we get? Islam. 1.5 billion people and not a Nobel prize amongst them. A hand full of Jews have contributed more to mankind then the Islamists will ever achieve, because Islamic culture is so retrograde that even god can't help them. The Jews were persecuted for thousands of years, wandering around the world slaughtered like animals and yet the human race will always be indebted to them. you will find more brains in Golders Green, then in the whole of the Arab world. To quote you "Simply in bringing civilisation to Arabia, a culture that would bury daughters at birth, Islam has been invaluable" And now they just marry them off at 10 or 12 years old, to some old man, or stone them to death, cut their heads off, or make them into second class citizens, who walk around in a tent. Personaly I think they would have been better off buried at birth then to live such a life. How many Muslim daughters are killed today by their own families? so called honar killings. keefriffhard:said. The James Earl Ray analogy was a bit of a cluster**k on my part but it was an offhand example at best. S.H.I.E.L.D:answer. your entire post is a clusterfuuk on your part, you have not contributed anything of real value in this debate. you have done nothing more than tie peoples time up. I am really sorry to say that you posted nothing with even the slightest depth. If I answered your post as you have answered mine, Id tie your time up all day and gain nothing. and I for one can no longer be bothered to communicate with you anymore. as you do not offer the mental stimulation and challenge that can keep me interested further. |
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| studio | May 27 2010, 11:51 PM Post #197 |
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Come on Clee39, I thought you saw the picture. Do I really look like a Pakistani? ![]() H_S ... another try to call me a Muslim? |
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| Deleted User | May 28 2010, 12:57 AM Post #198 |
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Nope, I have no interest in whether you are a muslim or not. Your as irrelevant. But please don't leave - your contribution to the movement has been inestimable. Even those I've debated with on anti-EDL sites who ended up agreeing with the EDL's position never bothered to join. They're not interested in standing up against islam. They were only interested in standing up against the EDL. I'm going to love hearing how many moderate muslims turn out for the One Law for All demonstration, compared to the EDL demo. We will have positive proof then of how irrelevant moderate muslims are to the work ahead. |
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| Deleted User | May 28 2010, 01:20 AM Post #199 |
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How arrogant of you to think that I'm so petty I would go and edit it. It wouldn't cross my mind to do that. If I made an asinine statement like the one you attributed to me, I'd apologize. I'm man enough to do that. The only edits I make are to correct spelling or missing/extra words. But I guess you're judging me by what you would have done in this situation. Even though I'm a fairy, my ego is strong enough to not worry about such things. I've been back through 4 threads concerning the BNP. I cannot find any post by me at that date and time. if you'd go back and find that post and copy & paste the specific sentences, then we can see what I said, and I can apologize for having been so stupid for saying such a thing. Or you can apologize for your character assassination. Either way, the world will be a better place. I'm actually hoping that I am the one who will apologize. I shall seem like a nicer person :-) People fail to understand the beauty of apologizing. |
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| Deleted User | May 28 2010, 01:58 AM Post #200 |
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Homosexuality in Islam is punishable by death so please spare us your sickening appeasing drivel. These lads, their only crime was being a Homosexual. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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1:22 AM Jul 11
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Feliz Navidad (Gold) created by Sarah & Delirium of the ZNR








and another thing I think your white and full of s**t. Your trousers must be bursting at the seams. I think we are over feeding you way too much. Goodbye from me.







1:22 AM Jul 11