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| Why the 'Peaceful Moderate' Muslim 'Majority' is Irrelevant | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 25 2010, 07:42 AM (2,004 Views) | |
| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 01:21 AM Post #101 |
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Bet you would if given half the chance
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 01:25 AM Post #102 |
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Keef Please remember: "The views posted on this board are not necessarily the views of the English Defence League. Posts which fall foul of the rules run the risk of being deleted by EDL moderators. Please take the time to familiarise yourself with these before posting. The fact that a post remains on this board does not constitute an endorsement of the views expressed. The EDL will not ever surrender our English values to Militant Islam and Sharia Law." This message board is used for wide ranging discussion and debate and people air different views that are not neccesarily the official views of the EDL. Just because some people question the validity of the term "moderate muslim" it doesn't mean the EDL does. Many opposing views are expressed on here and i think that keeping PC out of discussions as much as possible is important. Whoever you are, you will find some people that agree with some of your views here. Everybody will also find someone to disagree with here too. That is what makes this place great. |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 04:28 AM Post #103 |
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![]() Hello Keefriffhard, I would just like to comment on the above. Homophobia is not specific to Islam on that we can agree, but Islam is both a religion, and a political ideology with its own written law, and that law is used time and time again to execute homosexuals. Christianity may be a religion (not one that I would ever subscribe too) but it does not have the political Ideology and system of law that Islam has. There is no point in trying to compare Christianity to Islam because they are two completely different animals, and quite honestly most people in the West couldn't care less about Christianity other than its cultural attachment to present day secular society. Which is why Christmas is more a festive event than a religious one. Therefore you should compare Islamic Law in this case to British Law not Christianity. If an Illiterate cockney said he was visited by an angle and then began to write a new holy book with its own political ideology and law, which included a penalty of death for Pakistanis for being, well, Pakistanis, how would you feel about this? If you saw a growing population of these new believers who at best say nothing against these laws and at worst promote them would you feel safe? If you could feel the contempt of those people against you because not only are you not one of them, but a Pakistani, and considered less than human, would you welcome these people? If you saw whole areas filled with the people of this cult with their newly built temples, many of which preach hatred against the non believers and Pakistanis, would want to stay in that area or leave? If they tried to build one of their temples on a site where extremist elements of their religious political Ideology killed thousands of non believers just to rub your nose in it, would you say "well why not, after all they are the religion of peace?" The reality is this, people are beginning to wake up to the fact that political Islam is barbaric and Horrific. Democracy is not perfect, but at least it is in a constant phase of development, and has contributed more to this world then Islam could ever comprehend. Islam was fortunate to have taken over some of the greatest Civilisations in ancient History, Persia and Egypt, also it had access to the greatest works of ancient Greece and Rome lost to Europe after the fall of Rome, and finally when the Islamic Turks conquered Constantinople. And yet with all the advantages they had, with all the knowledge gained from the crem de la crem of the Ancient world, including the vast amounts of oil under their desert sand and Allah on their side, Islam as managed to plunge itself back into the dark ages. Today ordinary Infidels in the West are beginning to reflect the hostility and contempt back towards Islam, the attitudes of people like Homo Sapien towards Islam is a direct consequence of Islam's attitude towards him, as it is with the rest of us. Any decent human being would stand with this man, and protect him from homophobes, bigots, and anyone else who would harm him. How many of those decent human beings do you think would be practising mainstream Muslims? |
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| BeanLaden | May 27 2010, 04:34 AM Post #104 |
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S.H.I.E.L.D Great post
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| studio | May 27 2010, 08:29 AM Post #105 |
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Your the one who used it as an argument on here in favour of voting BNP. That aside, do you honestly think that a secular or moderate Muslim would want anything to do with you? You say such a person can not exist, that if your a Muslim who reads the Koran and visits the Mosque you can not be moderate. Holding your bbc survey above your head you proclaim that as some Muslims support Al Quieda, all Muslims must be fanatics, after all they are all Muslims... I think Keef made a valid point. When they have pushed Islam off the shores, who will be next on the list? I dont think it will be the hippy's, commies or crusties that have to worry.....
I will carry on wanting the removal of islamists and saying no to Sharia Law. And you can beat your chest with 'more EDL than thou' but I will do my bit. I wont pay for somebody to go to Newcastle this time, its turning islamaphobic in here. Maybe after Newcastle we can set the EDL boundaries up, and if necessary the MODs can make sure that all EDL related places sing from the same hymn sheet... but thats for another day. |
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| studio | May 27 2010, 08:30 AM Post #106 |
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Shield, maybe not stoning, but 14 years imprisonment in a Christian country for being Gay, yes.. |
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| brummieblue | May 27 2010, 08:47 AM Post #107 |
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There have been some excellent very interesting posts on here, SHIELDS is one of best, alas, for some the wheels are spinning but the cat has cornered the hamster. |
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| Battle of Lepanto | May 27 2010, 09:06 AM Post #108 |
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@ KEEFRIFFHARD Christianity and Judaism have passed through an Enlightenment. Since the 1640s Christians began to 'interpret' the Bible and not take it word for word. Islam has not passed through any such revolution and until it does there will always be a problem trying to accommodate the religion in secular liberal democracies. Islam, far from progressing and becoming enlightened, is in fact regressing. It is going backwards - beyond even its period of relative progress in the 9th century. |
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| Battle of Lepanto | May 27 2010, 09:08 AM Post #109 |
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This is England. |
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| keefriffhard | May 27 2010, 10:18 AM Post #110 |
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People draw parrallels between the EDL and nazi thugs too, i would've thought you'd be a bit more wary of how groups are portrayed, especially since you're subject to such misrepresentation yourselves.
How do you expect a religious organisation to get involved in a group with the world 'secular' in their title for chrissakes?
Right so that would make the existence size and actions of moderate muslims VERY relevant because they are part of how you define your enemy.
Right, so if we agree its not specific to Islam and its only been within the last century or so that homosexuality has been legal in this country is it not something that would best be pursued by educating, dialogue, common understanding rather than declaring some sort of secular holy war? I think you'll find Christianity has a very specific ideology and system of law sir.
No they're not they have umpteen glaring similarities and their scriptures tell most of the same storys. Right, so the only way you can tolerate a faith is when it doesn't behave like a faith?
quite amused to be honest Quite apart from anything else, i'd be interested to see an illiterate man write a book. I can't see Puffin picking it up.
have you ever been to a mosque?
How can you pass judgement on another motive like that? Maybe its just a house of prayer...just because MLK was shot by a white fundamentalist Christian should they start tearing down churches where he died? Of course not.
People are not bound to live as presedent prescribes, thats why Greeks, Turks, Romans all have contributed something of themselves to the world of culture. Muslims are responsible for a great many contributions to contemporary culture too as i'm sure you're aware.
On the contrary, i think its progressing...especially here in the west and i've provided reasons and explanations, not just absolute statements with no reasoning to back them up. |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 10:31 AM Post #111 |
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If you are going to try and paint me as an ignorant and racist person please quote me and provide a link to the asinine remarks you are attributing to me. I've got an idea of exactly which post of mine you are referring to, and my point was almost the opposite of what you are saying. It speaks volumes about your intentions that you would want to twist that post into the opposite of what I said. I'll apologize if I made the asinine remark you are attributing to me. And if not, then you can apologize for your attempt at character assassination. I've painted you into a corner with your "most muslims are moderate but I'm too scared of them to go on a demo" (that's paraphrasing). It seems you're even too scared to attend your local division meetings. Despite your claims to have loads of muslim friends, you haven't managed to convince one of them to attend an EDL division or demo, or even join a discussion here or on FB. In fact, as far as I can see, it doesn't look like you even discuss EDL with them - despite your 1000 or so posts on this forum. Your personal failure to step out from behind your keyboard to engage with the political realities is a reflection on you and your beliefs. If you believed in this moderate majority, you'd be engaging with them on the issues that concern you so much in this echo-chamber. While you're resorting to character assassination, I'm busy engaging with muslims about EDL, attending demos, setting up new Divisions, attending divisional meetings, liasing with other counter-jihad organizations, getting other people to join EDL, and many other practical issues related to this cause. And the all whilst living cheek-by-jowl with your "moderate muslims", more and more of whom go round dressed like the SS. If we sat around waiting for you and your hoardes of moderate muslims, we'd be governed by sharia by the time you got from behind your keyboard. I'm just glad that people like you are a minority in this movement. As far as I can see you are one of the people who come here merely to clog up discussion. That's why I spend most of my time on FB where it is easier to tune people like you out, and get on with organizing practical things. So continue to paint me as a racist, whilst I go to bed each night with my asian boyfriend. |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 10:34 AM Post #112 |
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No, you haven't. You've provided your opinion. I've provided statistical evidence that completely contradicts your opinion. You just chose to ignore it. |
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| keefriffhard | May 27 2010, 10:40 AM Post #113 |
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What statistical evidence? And anyway, you can't measure the changes in peoples hearts minds and attitudes in statistics? |
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| studio | May 27 2010, 10:51 AM Post #114 |
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May 06 4.06 pm i think. Could not work out how to cross edit or i would have. Now go and edit it, took me 2 mins to find it as i remembered it. I dont think your racist, just too near the centre to see all the picture. Nice chest banging old bean ;-) |
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| Battle of Lepanto | May 27 2010, 10:57 AM Post #115 |
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Oh I am sure the numbers are progressing (immigration and conversion in the West) - but that isn't what I meant. Islam is regressing intellectually. The very tenets of Islam do not permit (as Judeo-Protestantism did, for example) for the ingredients necessary for an enlightenment. This current phase of Islamic resurgence and expansion is not a 'progressive' one intellectually, but profoundly regressive. Islam is going backwards. An example: there is not one university in the Muslim world considered to be in the world's 'top 500'; there are 8 times more universities in India than there are in the entire Muslim world etc etc etc etc The Muslim world is closing its mind, closing schools, closing universities, denying access to education to women. Until Islam has an enlightenment it will ever be so, backward, ignorant and of no contribution to human progress. Edited by Battle of Lepanto, May 27 2010, 11:00 AM.
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 11:05 AM Post #116 |
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You may not be able to measure what is in the heart or mind, but you can definately look up and down your street, areas, and town centres and guage the changes easily enough! Where I live, the changes are mostly negative. |
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| Room 101 | May 27 2010, 11:08 AM Post #117 |
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"secular Muslims" yes I agree that is what needs to come about. A shift from Absolut Literal interpretation of the Muslim Qur'an to an understanding that its just like all other faiths a Cultural activity that's must reside within secular law and Government. There is a very good reason why country's like the USA have a constitution that puts into law separation of state and Religion. Its what most Muslim's find so hard to come to terms with and way on the most part they tolerate any secular state they are in wile holding the belief that one day it will become an Religious state basest on the Islamic faith. ITS FUNDAMENTAL to the Teachings of Islam, The WHOLE of the EARTH will become one Islamic state, no ifs no buts, the Qur'an says so and the god talked about with in it "Wills it to be so" All Muslims are told this from day one, Be a good Muslim and your actions will make this come about, my those actions be peaceful or not. The end state for the Muslim Faith is not a tolerant multicultural state under the rule of secular law and government, its the absolute removal of all other forms of governance and culture!! Only Islam will remain, god after all wills it. SO DO YOU GET IT NOW!!! Until that core teaching and belief changes then Islam will always be working to one end and one end only that of a 100% Islamic Earth. When the warlord/holyman Muhammad ibn ‘Abdullāh started to teach this Doctrine of long term intolerance (and make no mistake that is watt it is) he was seeking to lay down the foundations of a Empire to counter the Eastern roman one, He had to as at one point in time he was fighting for his and his Followers lives. His vision was a Utopia based on his own beliefs here on Earth, But its the Vision of a 6th Century man, born onto a deeply misogynistic culture, where children when sold and slaves kept. But time waits for no man and Humans have moved on. Our WORLD is not "HIS" world or his scribes and offspring's world, they made the book know as the Qur'an today, it was they who put down the views of this man into text. Think on this would you follow the Little red book of Mao Tse-Tung? It has more earthly prominence than the Qur'an! Note I say Earthly because once you start saying to the rest of mankind "the God/s are on your side" then you really are not playing with a full deck any more, to any one sighting god as the guiding hand behind their actions, they have just done a basic simply abdicate all responsibility. You have seen the Islam Posters "GOD WILLS IT SO" I'm sorry to upset your 6th century feelings but we have moved on to A Government of the PEOPLE for the PEOPLE! wonts is so here in the 21st century no room in the inn for gods, sorry, your gods are no longer needed for human civilization, we crafted batter tools for that. Let me make a prediction, you see the age of enlightenment means some thing, it has meant we have knowledge without the need of a divine supplies, knowledge that works, knowledge that has changed us and the world around us, knowledge that saves more lives then banding over and praying to any shrine, Effigy, Compass Direction, book or place. ever has. Science My delusional friend has no need for the supernatural, its not about faith its about facts, its not about Belief in the Ethereal but it's about belief in Empirical Evidence. So here is my prediction, one day soon Cognitive science will find that part of the brain where belief in religion and gods lives! and when it dos we will find a way to pull apart each and every neuron of a Fanatical's mind, we ill end there faith in hate for ever!! We will pull it out like pulling a bad tooth and then put in its place a better and safer human, a modern human and when we are done we will send them back into the community they came from. To make it to a safer and better place for the them, there family's and rest of modern mankind. To the Fantastical's I say this "Enjoy your movements now, for it will not be long before you and your actions will just be foot note in human history, a topic for scientific research and nothing more" Sweet dreams or maybe not... Yours Skaffin Edited by Room 101, May 27 2010, 11:26 AM.
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"You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world.” O'Brien - 1984 | |
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| keefriffhard | May 27 2010, 11:12 AM Post #118 |
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But the solution to that is not to attack it surely. There ARE changes and they ARE taking place and its within the muslim community in the Western World. The problem is that its happening among people that aren't very politicised but neither is the majority of the general public, not everybody wants to jump on bandwagons, hold up banners and wave flags...in fact, the vast majority don't. I've found, more often that not that ideology is followed close behind by agenda whereas most people just wanna get along and have a good time in life. |
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| Battle of Lepanto | May 27 2010, 11:25 AM Post #119 |
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Learning about the nature of the threat to western liberal traditions from Islam and defending oneself against it, is not attacking it. And whatever changes that are needed for Muslims to drag themselves into the light of reason must come from an enlightened approach to the holy texts. That is NOT happening. It is only from that that an opening of the mind can come. The changes you claim (but don't describe) can only be cosmetic. Wanting 'to get on with life' is not enough - and it's what this thread was all about. Edited by Battle of Lepanto, May 27 2010, 11:26 AM.
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| studio | May 27 2010, 11:35 AM Post #120 |
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Sorry Skaffin, do you think i am muslim? More anarchist, but beleive in the right of and individual to hold religious ideas without fear of prosecution or persecution up to the point that you want to impose that religion on me. Thats my stance. |
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| General Pershing | May 27 2010, 11:35 AM Post #121 |
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![]() This is a response to the moderate's allegation that all the vile and violent acts of terrorism and violence are not representative of true Islam and come from a mis-understanding of the Quran. What a load of balls! One should observe that if Christians or Buddhists or Hindus or Jains or Sikhs or Jews were in that position, they would not respond similarly. They would be ashamed. They would wish to stop those of their colleagues who were 'misguidedly' doing these things. The muslim is not peturbed by these acts however, because they do not matter so much, because they are being done to the sub-standard kafir. They also don't matter because any perceived slight to a muslim is ranked far higher than any rights of the kafir. Keefer, you're a bulls**t merchant, probably sitting a mosque somewhere, being paid to come on here and try deflect us or divide us. You can't and you won't. You come here and stand up for terrorists and make excuses for them. You are warped, obviously by a warped upbringing! Edited by General Pershing, May 27 2010, 11:37 AM.
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| keefriffhard | May 27 2010, 11:36 AM Post #122 |
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Right but there's a huge difference between that and dehumanizing vast cross sections of society based on their religious beliefs. Members of my own family fought in WW2, as muslims, under the British Empire for the western traditions that i am being accused of being a threat to on this forum, despite categorically claiming that i don't believe in the muslim religion, whereupon i am called a spy and a traitor by certain parts of this forum...couple this with the notion that the impartial or non-participant are irrelevant smacks of an inherent predudice.
Sure it is, you're just not looking for it, there are groups, there are moderate muslims, jesus, there are even cross-sections of the muslim community itself that the extremist rally against, doesn't that tell you something?
Its a change that i myself have seen, as a member of a muslim family, occuring throughout the communities i am aware of where the younger generations are essentially losing the rigidity of the Islam that their parents held in favour of a more loose approach and in umpteen other cases, almost a total abandonment of it. I mean i know people, scores that i can name offhand in my local muslim community who are muslims by name only, know next to nothing about the religion and can't even perform the prayers cuz they don't know how. This is happening all across England and the west and these are the people to look to to bring Islam into the 21st Century, not all revolutions are bloody, changes in attitudes are reflected in behaviour, in the way people relate to other people, it doesn't have to be about blood and guts.
You can't tell people how to live..
Oh don't be ridiculous! you want me to be ashamed for something i didnt do? Edited by keefriffhard, May 27 2010, 11:41 AM.
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| Battle of Lepanto | May 27 2010, 11:39 AM Post #123 |
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I don't think he's a Muslim, or Pakistani. Sounds like an English lefty. |
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| keefriffhard | May 27 2010, 11:42 AM Post #124 |
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Naz Khans the name, born in Luton, family from Kashmir in Pakistan
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 12:05 PM Post #125 |
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Hello Studio If by this you are referring to the Malawi gay couple sentenced to a maximum of 14 years in prison I think you will find this is to do with Malawi culture and law . The minister of information, Leckford Mwanza Thotho, declared to local media immediately following the couple's arrest in December that they had broken the law. He went on to say "Our laws are very clear. We do not tolerate homosexuality in this country and these two have to undergo court process and be brought to book,". He also said " the verdict proves homosexuality is against Malawian culture". Yet article 20 of Malawi's Constitution, the supreme law of the land which Malawi's president, Bingu wa Mutharika is sworn to uphold, states that "discrimination of persons in any form is prohibited and all persons are, under any law, guaranteed equal and effective protection against discrimination on grounds of race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, nationality, ethnic or social origin, disability, property, birth or other status". Chapter four of the constitution also demands that human rights and freedoms shall be respected and upheld by the executive - the president and his cabinet, the legislature and the judiciary and all organs of the government. This is a typical example of a broken democratic system which ends up as a typically African Tinpot form of government, and even though measures are in place within the country's constitution to safeguard people against all forms of discrimination and inequalities they are ignored. On the other side of the coin, a fully functional, healthy, well oiled Islamic system of government would have had this gay couple brutally slain. And there would be no shortage of main stream Muslims ready to cast the first stone. Former colonial power Britain, the United States and Ireland expressed "deep disappointment" at the ruling, Along with South Africa which is the only country on that continent that recognises same sex marriages. No mention of any Islamic country expressing "deep disappointment" Thirty-eight out of 53 countries criminalise consensual gay sex, which is punishable by death in some nations, according to Human Rights Watch. The following countries have laws that ban homosexual sex: The countries with an * do not consider female/female sex illegal. • Afghanistan • Algeria • Angola • Antiqua and Barbuda • *Bangladesh • Barbados • Belize • Bhutan • Botswana • *Brunei • Burundi • Cameroon • *Cook Islands • Djibouti (unknown status) • Dominica • Eritrea • Ethiopia • *Gambia • *Gaza • Ghana • *Grenada • Guinea • *Guyana • *India • Iran • *Iraq • *Jamaica • *Kenya • *Kiribati • *Kuwait • Lebanon • *Lesotho • Liberia • Libya • *Malawi • *Malaysia • Maldives • Mauritania • *Mauritius • Morocco • Mozambique • *Myanmar • *Namibia • *Nauru • Nicaragua • *Nigeria • Oman • *Pakistan • *Palau • *Papua New Guinea • Qatar • *Saint Kitts and Nevis • Saint Lucia • Saint Vincent and the Grenadines • Sao Tome and Principe • Saudi-Arabia • Senegal • *Seychelles • *Sierra Leone • *Singapore • Solomon Islands • Somalia • Sri Lanka • Sudan • Swaziland (female/female-unclear) • Syria (female/female-unclear) • *Tanzania • Togo • *Tonga • Trinidad and Tobago • Tunisia • Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (plans to repeal the law) • *Turkmesistan • *Tuvalu • Uganda • United Arab Emirates • *Uzbekistan • *Western Samoa • Yemen • *Zambia • *Zimbabwe Is there any Muslim country not on this list? if so it's probably a mistake on my part. If you want to do meaningful comparisons, compare typical contemporary Western Democratic countries with those of Islamic ones. All this bollocks of trying to compare Christianity which has little place in today's secular society with Islam, is both pointless and meaningless, as is comparing third world tinpot African democracies with contemporary Western democracies ![]() |
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| Battle of Lepanto | May 27 2010, 12:06 PM Post #126 |
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To Keef: Those Muslims you say are slowly losing their religion are SILENT about what is done in the name of Islam. That isn't progress. No solutions can be looked to from them I'm afraid. As for groups and individuals: Taj Hargey in Oxford, for example? He's roundly abused by apparently mainstream Muslim organisations. The same goes for any other Muslim group or individual - and I'm struggliing to name any of significance - who stick their head above the parapet. As for re-examining holy texts: it most definitely is NOT happening. Al-Azhar University is becoming more and more literalist as time goes by, if that is possible. All over the Muslim world clerics with a hardline attitude to Islam are imposing their grip on the minds of their subjects. As for this forum: there are people from many different backgrounds, with a plurality of views. Some people have a greater understanding of the issues than others, some are more angry than others, some are more rational than others, some are wilder in their solutions than others, some are discussing these matters for the first time in their lives and are learning to distinguish between a belief system and an individual. Perhaps you should, too. I find many aspects of Islam disgusting and the antithesis to everything I believe in and everything which I believe this country is. My problem is with the belief system and if necessary with the people who follow those abhorrent aspects of it, not those wanting a quiet life. But I think it their duty to speak up, too, if they want to enjoy the rights afforded to all in this country. There can be no rights without duties. And the moderators and posters here do a pretty good job in chasing people off whose views are beyond the limit. Edited by Battle of Lepanto, May 27 2010, 12:08 PM.
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| keefriffhard | May 27 2010, 12:14 PM Post #127 |
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Still doesn't make them participants or "irrelevant" anymore than any silent law abiding get-on-with-life cross sections of society are and these are the same people being dragged through the mud because the actions of extremists.
So they are there, by your own admission.
And yet there's Egypt, one of those countries where the populus are considered very dilute muslims by a lot of the muslim world.
Its a shame so many on her can't afford this sort of rationale to their understanding of the different divisions amongst muslims. |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 12:22 PM Post #128 |
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Yes, it's progressing, it's progressively becoming more pious and extreme, and violent. |
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| Battle of Lepanto | May 27 2010, 12:25 PM Post #129 |
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KEEF: The silent Muslims can and will be seen by many as being complicit, the same way German civilians were seen as silently complicit in what happened in their country 1933-45. The fact that the very few dissenting voices in the Muslim world (and you notice I mentioned only one name - care to give me a few others?) are abused and effectively silenced by fellow Muslims isn't much cause for hope or celebration, welcome though they may be. They are the exceptional voices which prove the rule, as it were, that most Muslims have remained silent about Muslim atrocities. Egypt is one step away from falling into the hands of the Muslim Brotherhood. Egyptian society is becoming increasingly intolerant. Take the gross mistreatment of Coptic Christians for example, persecution that is rapidly gaining pace. And take the hijabisation of university students in what was ONCE considered to be a 'moderate' Islamic society. As for the Great British general public: their awareness of all things Islamic started with the disgusting spectacle of the book-burning of Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses - something which is routinely defended by Muslim organisations to this day. I'm afraid to say that many people equate Islam with intolerance. It's not up to the non-Muslim to learn more about Islam. It's up to Muslims to enlighten themselves and their religion. Until that happens, nothing will change, and Islam will rightly be considered a threat and incompatible with Western traditions. And Muslims who keep silent will continue to be considered irrelevant or complicit. Edited by Battle of Lepanto, May 27 2010, 12:28 PM.
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| Battle of Lepanto | May 27 2010, 12:35 PM Post #130 |
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What divisions? where are they? Who are they? We don't see or hear them. That's the whole point to this thread, and in fact to the EDL. If there were Muslim groups doing their duty to this country and defending its tolerant traditions from threat, the EDL would perhaps not exist. If British Muslims won't do it, then Englishmen will. |
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| keefriffhard | May 27 2010, 12:37 PM Post #131 |
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Monsoons begin with a few droplets Google it, they're out there.
I'm not denying that problems exist, i just don't think attack is the way to deal with it.
I think both are essential.
The same divisions there are in any cross section of society, extreme, moderate, liberal, conservative, participative, non participative, subversive. You seem able to gloss over the inconsistencies and inequities of the different ideas and attitudes that make up the EDL, i admire that attitude, i think its key to a proper grasp of anything...why does that mode of thinking not extend to your assessments of Islam? Edited by keefriffhard, May 27 2010, 12:41 PM.
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| Battle of Lepanto | May 27 2010, 12:52 PM Post #132 |
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KEEF: I believe you are wrong: it is not essential that non-Muslims learn more about Islam. This is what we are always told. Then we are provided with 'teachers' who tell us that Islam is the greatest thing, even greater than sliced bread. But I am glad you see the need for a Muslim Enlightenment - which should take about 500 years at this rate, if not longer. Monsoons start with a few droplets? Care to name any of those droplets? It's not for me to go looking for them. It is not my duty, but yours to provide them. I suspect you cannot although I want to hope otherwise. I'm aware of a few secular groups but they carry NO weight with Muslims. Egypt? No one is attacking Egypt. But we are free to attack Islam as a belief system if we so choose. And in my view it warrants attacking with words, and with force if necessary. And you claim that there are the same differences amongst Muslims? I don't believe it. Not when it comes to matters of religion. There may be those who follow aspects of it and not others, but that doesn't make for the plurality of voices you suggest. Certainly not in the Muslim world. Edited by Battle of Lepanto, May 27 2010, 12:53 PM.
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 01:00 PM Post #133 |
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In your opinion only. We've all tried sitting back and letting the powers that be deal with the situation and where exactly has that got us ? No more sitting back I'm afraid, other people only use the time to organise and further exploit this country. |
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| General Pershing | May 27 2010, 01:40 PM Post #134 |
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Well said cutter. Don't let people like this distract us from the truth and from our duty to wake up our fellow countrymen! |
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| keefriffhard | May 27 2010, 01:44 PM Post #135 |
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Its not for me to provide them at all, why? See this is a ridiculous notion that people are bound to defend other people on the basis or being of them same faith (which i'm not) or the same nationality, its totally unfair and unreasonable, its like getting mugged by a black man and then going to work and asking all the black people you know to account for anothers actions. If you're aware of a few secular groups, there's your answer. They don't carry weight with muslims well its a work in progress, isn't it? But on the one hand you're saying its not there and on the other you're saying it is but everythings not all worked out yet well these things take time..
is Al-Azhar Uni not in Egypt?
Very solid basis for a declaration of war there mate
If you like. Hope it works out for you.
Nice one blackjack, well done on ignoring my post in that other thread as well, you were getting quite out of your seat too, whats the matter hero, gets a bit uncomfy when someone calls you out a little, doesn't it? Carry On General, Matron would be proud
Edited by keefriffhard, May 27 2010, 01:48 PM.
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 02:10 PM Post #136 |
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Keef, Keef, Keef, what you are doing here is ignoring one simple fact. We are a tolerant society in the UK… Normally. BUT, because of Islam we are becoming less tolerant. Let me give you an analogy. If you own a dog and every day you kick that dog, then one day it bites you, is it the dogs fault? No, it’s the owners. How does this work in terms of Islam. Well we have opened up our country, welcomed Islam in but Islam attacks our values at every turn. So now when we stand up to it and “bite back” Islam gets all upset. I’m using very simplistic language so hopefully my comments cannot be misunderstood. Ok, its not the best reaction but you can only push people so far. I can understand why you are trying to justify the behaviour of Islam but it will not wash here. Only when Islam and Muslims start to understand that THEY are responsible for their actions will things start to improve. |
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| keefriffhard | May 27 2010, 02:23 PM Post #137 |
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But thats precisely it i'm not trying to justify their behaviour, i think you'll find i've categorically condemned the behaviour of extremists and ANYBODY that would endanger and in many cases end human life, i think its despicable abhorrant and foul but at the same time i don't think aggression is the way to deal with these sorts of situations, especially when you don't have a discernible enemy. I mean, what do you really suggest, just charging the streets and kicking the s**t out of every muslim you see? I don't see where all this Geeing up is leading, you get people all riled up, all bolstered, take em out in the streets en masse and with nothing to expend all their pent up energy and you're just asking for trouble, its where mob mentality takes over and rational reasonable thought no longer applies. THAT my friend, is dangerous. Also, i don't see any actual plans being put forward by any one as to what is to be done. I've seen a lot of identifying of the problem but i've not seen anyone as of yet saying, in a straightforward and pragmatic sense, what they hope to achieve and how they plan to go about it. What, go out during a protest and start chanting obscene things about people of another faith...and expect everybody to just stand idley by and let it happen...thats as ridiculous as EDL (or the genesis of it) standing by and letting what happened in Luton in June 09 happen. Aggressive confrontation is not gonna achieve anything but a huge barney...is that what the objective is basically? Pitched battles on Englands streets? Its not necessary, there has to be better ways to deal with the relevant issues. |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 02:42 PM Post #138 |
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is keefriffhard a troll? |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 02:46 PM Post #139 |
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wheres anxiety86, he can spot em with his eyes shut. |
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| keefriffhard | May 27 2010, 02:49 PM Post #140 |
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I'm confronted with this constantly on this forum...why? Am i being rude? No, in fact i've been subjected to it by some...am i making frivalous posts with no content for the sake of agitation? No, i'm asking concise relevant questions and putting across my opinion...other than that, whats wrong with an opposing viewpoint to yours? I mean, isn't that how beliefs are backed up, isn't that the idea of a forum, discussion and debate? |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 02:50 PM Post #141 |
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Yea cheers Sherlock, I have spent my adult life doing nothing standing idley by and watched where I grew up turn into a no go area. Of course there has to be a better way to deal with the situation but you know what, I'm not bending another f**king inch or listening to the same old tune of "Racist" and "No there aren't any problems" or "You should be more tolerant" and unless the powers that be don't start listening and sort this s**t out then there will be pitched battles on the streets of England. NO SURRENDER! |
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| Battle of Lepanto | May 27 2010, 02:52 PM Post #142 |
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You misunderstand - it's for you to provide names of groups and individuals because it is YOU who are insisting they exist. I don't get your point about al-Azhar. It's where the hardline teachings come from. It's not a university in the Western understanding of the concept. As for declarations of war - ISLAM is a declaration of war, on the non-Muslim world. That is Islam's contribution to the world and humanity. |
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| keefriffhard | May 27 2010, 02:53 PM Post #143 |
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What exactly are you getting narky with me about? I've not called you a racist or said you should be more tolerant or that you should stand idle, i was just asking you what the objective was. And thats it, is it? Pitched battles in the street...to what ends exactly? And these are serious question, i want to know where this is headed, i'm not on a wind up or asking smug rhetorical questions, i'm being literal, is that your objective, pitched battles in the street? |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 02:53 PM Post #144 |
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prob the nearly 100 posts in a day objecting to everything? if you dont like it why bother? i doubt youll change anyones view, itll just become sport. homo sapien will appear from nowhere and own you. its a regular pattern. good luck. |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 03:00 PM Post #145 |
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Clee, I thought Keef was a troll at about post number one yesterday. But if anything he is doing our cause more good than harm. Thanks Keef, you are most welcome
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| keefriffhard | May 27 2010, 03:02 PM Post #146 |
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But you've said yourself that you know of a few..
My point was that you were singling it out as perhaps a focal point for extremism and i was providing a contrast by saying that Egypt is considered in the extremist quarters of islam to be quite the westernised state so for every yin there's a yang.
Our immediate problems are the problems within England and those are instances perpetrated by a very very very small minority and it is those people that should be sought out and dealt with accordingly. Just because David Copeland was a white supremacist and the recent bloke who ran that white supremacist website was a neo nazi, does this mean we should go after all white people? Of course not, its ridiculous...the people responsible should be held responsible and the innocent among as should be let be.
I'm just stating my opinion, y'know, exercising the sorts of freedom that EDL are attempting to preserve. Disagreeing unto itself, whether wholesale or otherwise doesn't constitute trolling.
If i don't like what?
I'm not out to change peoples view, just engage in discussion and learn something and perhaps help someone else to learn something too.
own me? See, i'm not approaching this with a year 8 "AAAAHHHHHH, YOU GOT CANED, AHHHHH GUTTEEDDD!!" mentality...just because someone shows you something through discussion doesn't mean they've got one over you, thats just childish, the objective of debate is to learn something, not play one upmanship games.
Thats really quite disheartening but i suppose you're entitled to your opinion. I thought you were one of the few who were actually engaging me in serious discussion, its a pity you think that of me. Edited by keefriffhard, May 27 2010, 03:05 PM.
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 03:04 PM Post #147 |
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ive learnt nowt off your posts whatsoever tho? not one thing? |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 03:06 PM Post #148 |
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yea i missed him mate? only just noticed him! still a bit of sport will brighten things up
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| keefriffhard | May 27 2010, 03:06 PM Post #149 |
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Well then the buck stops with me in that regard, what can i say, perhaps my opinings are lacking in substance. |
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| Deleted User | May 27 2010, 03:33 PM Post #150 |
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What am I getting narky about?? I'm getting narky about the fact over the last the last 25 years I have seen large areas of my home town become no go areas for white people even tho at the time people were warning about it only to get slapped down and called racists. I'm getting even more narky that some people refuse to believe these areas exist I'm getting narky about the fact that when my home town was flooded with asylum seekers who were all being dumped in the same area pensioners and other residents couldn't sell their homes and move out that is until in the end the entire area was bulldozed. It makes me narky that they were fobbed off and told "There is no problem" when they protested. I'm getting narky that people who are supposed to be my fellow countrymen would decide to jump on trains and buses and murder people in London and I am expected to not be concerned that these people used a certain religion as a crutch to justify themselves. I'm narky that this happening all over the world and yet its "Is ok, I shouldn't really worry about it" You know what I am narky about the most? I am narky about people who some how think that I should be quiet whilst all this is going on and that it is I who is supposed to bend. I'm f**king narky about all the fooking leftwing toss bag idiots out there and twats who come on this fourm with their head up their arse views on the situation. I'm fooking narky that if something doesn't change then we will see pitched battles on the streets. |
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