Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Edl The Forum. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Why the 'Peaceful Moderate' Muslim 'Majority' is Irrelevant
Topic Started: May 25 2010, 07:42 AM (2,005 Views)
stevo mse
Member Avatar
Newbie
here is what i think, if you was in the forces and you have a mission you would silently creep into the area you need to be to complete your mission and surround the area so no one knows whats happening this can take some time but when you feel your in possition you all attack all at once to achieve your mission and the chances of doing so are alot higher than just walking in and screaming and shouting and giving the enemy chance to fight back.

what im getting at is they all believe in one thing 'islam to rule the world' and for them to rule the world they need the best fighting chance so they are invading and living amongst us and when the time is right and they have enough numbers they will try and complete there mission, if there is musslims out there that belive in peace they need to speak out against there brothers and sisters and help our cause against muslim extremism and JOIN THE EDL, untill i see proof that they are trying to put a stop to exstreme islam i will put the exstreme label on all of them im affraid.

NO SURRENDER
dont let the british become the minority in there own country
stop the invasion from within
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
keefriffhard
No Avatar
Member
What bought me to this forum? General interest and curiosity in what it represents i suppose. I think what some people are saying is happening in this country and what actually is happening is being widely and grossly exaggerated and taken out of context and misrepresented.

No Christian groups no, but English? I think you'll find there are, BNP, NF, any number of small white supremacist groups out there.

And as far as getting attacked in the streets, jesus, pakistanis like myself have been putting up with that sort of thing since we landed on these isles, not as much in my generation but certainly the one before it...ever hear of the term **** bashing? It entails groups of white lads going around in groups kicking p***s heads in.

And hey, the IRA were blowing s**t up in your country not long ago. None of this excuses the inequities of extremist muslim groups that perpetrate this despicable s**t but my point is you have to look at these things with a degree of perspective and awareness and realise that expressly attacking and demonising a particular cross-section of society is a rather dubious means by which to promote and propagate your own.

Equality for all has no but's to it.

Christians believe Christianitys gonna rule the world too, its in the bible, Gods gonna seperate the true believers from the rest and they're gonna be saved while the rest perish and/or go to hell...hows that any different essentially from Islam ruling the world one day?
Edited by keefriffhard, May 26 2010, 11:59 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

keefriffhard
May 26 2010, 11:44 AM
Why...why does Islam have no place in society when so much of the bible is just as spurious? See this is where it gets interesting, Christian doctrine is heavily diluted and deviates from the prescribed way of the bible yet they're allowed to the party as long as they stick to said deviations...Islam according to certain posters has absolutely no place in society whatsoever though, moderate or otherwise? how'd you spell H Y P O C R I S Y again?
Because Britain is very much a secular society and religion (Christianity) has little sway in what we do and is decreasing year by year. We are also a democracy, Islam is theocratic and forbids being governed by man made laws, it is the very antithesis of our society and culture, so there is a conflict.

Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

keefriffhard
May 26 2010, 11:57 AM
I think what some people are saying is happening in this country and what actually is happening is being widely and grossly exaggerated and taken out of context and misrepresented.

Taqiyya, it is the polar opposite, it is being under reported and swept under the carpet, which is allowing it to expand at an even greater pace.

Tell me, why do you think that there isn't any organisations springing up against Hindus and Sikhs? I'll tell you why, because Hindus and Sikhs integrate, Muslims segregate and assimilate. Hindus and Sikhs come here because they like the British way of life, the fact that here, they have a chance to make something of themselves and they respect our ways and culture. Muslims (by way of Islam) want to change Britain, they want to enforce their way of life and their belief system on Britain and change it.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

S.H.I.E.L.D
May 25 2010, 08:51 PM
Do you really think Islam would be a problem in Europe if the people and governments have the will to deal with it?
The real enemy isn't Islam, Islam is easy to deal with in the West, The real enemy are those that are purposefully changing the demographics of Europe for their own ends, inviting mass Muslim immigration and supporting Islam whilst quashing any resistance to it. These are the political elites
[...]
we can either be a country of people united, regardless of race, religion or sexuality, or we can be a country of divided people, with two laws, two cultures, each with values totaly at odds with each other, where the undercurrent of civil unrest is never far away, and bombings and murders are the order of the day.
I agree entirely with this post. Thank you for taking the time to put it into words. I've put bits and pieces of that together here and there. You've got it all in one.

The question is why the establishment are doing this (I use that term to incorporate the elites and all the hierarchies that are controlled by them - political parties, schools and universities, the media). Those in the hierarchies are not particularly concerned by the tune the elite is playing, they're just concerned with rising up the hierarchy).

I only see two explanations for it (and they may both be true). a) eurabia (alas, few people in EDL appear to have read the book) b) muslims are here because they are being used across europe as an "alien" culture to break down our national identities so the United States of Europe can come into being.

There is no doubt that these national identities have been broken down. I'm pretty sure all of us (even athiests like me) feel more commonality with a Lithuanian or an Italian or a Greek than we do with a muslim.

I've no time for people who will just dismiss Bat Ye'or's work without at least reading her book and the documents she reproduces in it. People class as "conspiracy theories" those things they don't like (and haven't considered).

Whatever your opinion on 9/11 there was a conspiracy. If you accept the official version the conspiracy was among islamic extremists who secretly conspired to fly passenger jets into the WTC. If that wasn't a conspiracy they would have had a press officer and would have been approaching the media beforehand to make sure the cameras were in the right places.

Quote Post Goto Top
 
keefriffhard
No Avatar
Member
Quote:
 
Because Britain is very much a secular society and religion (Christianity) has little sway in what we do and is decreasing year by year. We are also a democracy, Islam is theocratic and forbids being governed by man made laws, it is the very antithesis of our society and culture, so there is a conflict.


That still doesn't alter the fact that there are glaring similarities in the doctrine and you're effectively saying that ones alright and the other isn't, based on an extreme minority and their vocal attitude. Christianity eventually moderatised (if such a word exists) why can the same not be expected of Islam in due course? I mean, the signs are there already in many quarters but people seem to want to ignore them in favour of just going at it tooth and nail, i don't see what will be achieved except hatred and destruction, the very thing we're supposed to be against.

Quote:
 
Tell me, why do you think that there isn't any organisations springing up against Hindus and Sikhs?


Apparently the NF and the BNP have escaped your notice entirely.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

keefriffhard
May 26 2010, 11:57 AM
And as far as getting attacked in the streets, jesus, pakistanis like myself have been putting up with that sort of thing since we landed on these isles, not as much in my generation but certainly the one before it...ever hear of the term **** bashing? It entails groups of white lads going around in groups kicking p***s heads in.

And hey, the IRA were blowing s**t up in your country not long ago. None of this excuses the inequities of extremist muslim groups that perpetrate this despicable s**t but my point is you have to look at these things with a degree of perspective and awareness and realise that expressly attacking and demonising a particular cross-section of society is a rather dubious means by which to promote and propagate your own.

Equality for all has no but's to it.

Christians believe Christianitys gonna rule the world too
Well, let me tell you my Pakistani friend, my people have been attacked in the streets all my life, and I'm 50 years old. There was a lot of ignorance and intolerance around 30 years ago. These days it is as likely that it is muslims who are attacking non-muslims, and you people are a small minority of the population. And by my people, I'm referring to homosexuals (to make a point).

In London it is the areas that are most muslim where the homophobic attacks are rising most. In some parts of east London the majority of gay people are afraid to go out after dark. And when given the opportunity, they will identify muslism aggression as a major part of the problem. Why is that? When gay people joined EDL there was no violence towards us, no abuse, but a lot of support and cameraderie.

I'm not making this up. There are very serious incidents of racist violence in this country. I'm sure you know the case of Stephen Lawrence, because it's been kept alive in public memory by the media? But I'll bet you don't know of the cases of Kriss Donald or Ross Parker:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kriss_Donald
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Ross_Parker

Or how about the 30 bangladeshi muslims who tried to slice open a white man's head in a racist attack in east London:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-501105/Asians-guilty-shattering-mans-skull-race-hate-attack.html

27 of those extremely violent racist muslims were not caught. Now ask yourself, why is it you know all about Stephen Lawrence, but nothing about these cases?

Muslims are supposed to be 3% of the population, but they are 12% of the prison population. Did you know that? Why is that if they are integrating so well. Why is it that my muslim neighbours (to whom I'm nothing but polite and helpful) told me that normally if they saw a white man being attacked in the street, they'd just join in the attack, no questions asked? Who is the violent bigot there? In my 50 years, I've never heard a white person say they would do that to a pakistani or a black person.

The Irish have been involved in violent resistance to British rule in Ireland for hundreds of years. They had nationalist reasons to want the British out of Ireland. British governments created an intractable problem in norther Ireland. Terrorism was not the way to solve it. Now, that is the perspective on IRA terrorism. Please give me the perspective that explains Lockerbie, 7/7, and all the subsequent attacks that have been foiled. What has the British government done to British muslims that is so bad? There is no perspective that can explain it, except for jihad.

Please don't tell me you are a muslim and you believe in equality. Your religion presecribed unequal treatment for over 1000 years for all those non-muslims that had the misfortune to live in muslim countries. Do you know the word "dhimmi" and "jizya"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

Christians do not believe Christianity is going to rule the world. I was brought up in a christian household, in a christian country, and went to a christian school, and went to church every sunday. I never, ever heard that Christianity was going to rule the world. Please tell us where it says that in the New Testament. I'd like to know how my family, church and school failed to tell me that. Muslims have certainly told me that islam will dominate the world.

If you'd like to discuss these things with my via PM please do. I'm on a mission to find out why moderate muslims are not joining EDL and are not putting this country and our tolerance for diversity ahead of islam.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

keefriffhard
May 26 2010, 11:57 AM
What bought me to this forum? General interest and curiosity in what it represents i suppose. I think what some people are saying is happening in this country and what actually is happening is being widely and grossly exaggerated and taken out of context and misrepresented.

No Christian groups no, but English? I think you'll find there are, BNP, NF, any number of small white supremacist groups out there.

And as far as getting attacked in the streets, jesus, pakistanis like myself have been putting up with that sort of thing since we landed on these isles, not as much in my generation but certainly the one before it...ever hear of the term **** bashing? It entails groups of white lads going around in groups kicking p***s heads in.

And hey, the IRA were blowing s**t up in your country not long ago. None of this excuses the inequities of extremist muslim groups that perpetrate this despicable s**t but my point is you have to look at these things with a degree of perspective and awareness and realise that expressly attacking and demonising a particular cross-section of society is a rather dubious means by which to promote and propagate your own.

Equality for all has no but's to it.

Christians believe Christianitys gonna rule the world too, its in the bible, Gods gonna seperate the true believers from the rest and they're gonna be saved while the rest perish and/or go to hell...hows that any different essentially from Islam ruling the world one day?
Hi Keef,

Welcome to the forums!! I found your post interesting and had a fair few points of interest.

No religion can say they have at some time been the cause of or the catalyst to violence. There are plenty of people in this world of ours that want their religion to be top dog. The issue with Islam is that unlike many others that have faded with time and enlightenment Islam has not.

You speak of the IRA. Yes, there was of course a religious aspect to that. But from my limited understanding it was not the cause. Governance of the province/land was. I understand that one of the reasons they put down their arms was because they did not want to be classed in the same group as Islam. This was a theory that was floating about just after 9/11.

There are plenty of militant christens around the world. They are small in number and will stay that way, thankfully. For example the KKK is a joke. Everyone knows that but any group can act violently.

The BNP are trying to go main stream and the NF is all but dead. Because the BNP have allowed non-whites in to their party those NF members have split (or so the internet says). The BNP themselves are on the fringes of political power and serve as a good reminder of what was or could have been. The last election proved this.

Islam on the other hard is huge and able to engulf entire counties. Look at how Hamas and the Taliban have acted in the past. Given half the chance they would do the same in the UK. This is why we reject their actions. The further you dig in to Islam the darker it gets. Islam commands immense power and respect that it should not have. Islam seeks to change the very fabric of our nation. This cannot be allowed to happen. We have fought too hard and long to get to where we are now and will not regress.

I am not seeking to point out that one religion or group is better than the other. I am mealy pointing out that one particular group poses a far greater threat to our way of life. Islam is totally incomputable with democracy and fairness, its as simple as that. They are the large threat not the small groups like the KKK, BNP or NF. All of those groups added up would not even fill a concert hall. Islam… Well you know the score.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
keefriffhard
No Avatar
Member
Quote:
 
Well, let me tell you my Pakistani friend, my people have been attacked in the streets all my life, and I'm 50 years old. There was a lot of ignorance and intolerance around 30 years ago. These days it is as likely that it is muslims who are attacking non-muslims, and you people are a small minority of the population.


As likely but twice as accountable it would appear..

Quote:
 
and you people are a small minority of the population.


You people? Excuse me, remind me again, what group are you attaching me to here?

Quote:
 
In London it is the areas that are most muslim where the homophobic attacks are rising most. In some parts of east London the majority of gay people are afraid to go out after dark. And when given the opportunity, they will identify muslism aggression as a major part of the problem. Why is that? When gay people joined EDL there was no violence towards us, no abuse, but a lot of support and cameraderie.


Homophobia is not specific to Islam, its been around since before there was an Islam. Its an awful thing and your point about rising statistics in muslim areas is not to be ignored but at the same time it is not the root cause of the problem by a long chalk. If these circumstances and situations do exist the relevant parties need to be dealt with accordingly. I mean, i don't see no one going off on Christianity on the basis of homophobia, at least not as vocally as they are here against Islam...why is that? The doctrine is relation to homosexuals is almost identical and hate crimes have been prepetrated against homosexuals both in this country and otherwise for centuries. I suppose because Christians avoid that bit of the Bible a bit recently but doesn't that essentially throw some of the folks around heres notion of "there are no moderate muslims really, just read the Qu'ran" argument into a cocked hat?

Quote:
 
When gay people joined EDL there was no violence towards us, no abuse, but a lot of support and cameraderie.


Cuz one groups been traded for another and this time you're on the side thats putting the boot in? (just a thought)

Quote:
 
27 of those extremely violent racist muslims were not caught. Now ask yourself, why is it you know all about Stephen Lawrence, but nothing about these cases?


How'd you know i don't?

Quote:
 
Muslims are supposed to be 3% of the population, but they are 12% of the prison population. Did you know that? Why is that if they are integrating so well.


Reminds me of that old American statistic in the mid 90s "1 in every 5 black males before the year 2,000 will be detained or deceased". I wonder why that was..

Quote:
 
The Irish have been involved in violent resistance to British rule in Ireland for hundreds of years. They had nationalist reasons to want the British out of Ireland. British governments created an intractable problem in norther Ireland. Terrorism was not the way to solve it. Now, that is the perspective on IRA terrorism. Please give me the perspective that explains Lockerbie, 7/7, and all the subsequent attacks that have been foiled. What has the British government done to British muslims that is so bad? There is no perspective that can explain it, except for jihad.


The whole Al Qaeda thing came about as a response by what some percieved as injustice perpetrated against muslims by certain western nations. Now whether the percieved injustice exists or not the way to deal with issues so they don't escalate is by addressing the issues. Radicalisation doesn't just pop out of thin air, it is something that builds and builds and builds and its our job to ensure a level playing field so things like this don't occur. Whats going on in israel, whats been going on generally in the middle east for so many years is something that NEEDS direct addressing before things go further than they have already. I'm a firm believer in the notion that if the problem between Israel and Palestine was solved instead of invading afghanistan and iraq and giving the terrorists more of a cause than they had in the first place, it would've efffectively taken the legs out of the extremists whole argument. You don't have to give in to them but reach some form of mutual compromise. But the more you do the opposite and meet their barking with barking of your own you further their cause and effectively fuel their fire.

Quote:
 
Please don't tell me you are a muslim and you believe in equality.


i didn't.

Quote:
 
Your religion presecribed unequal treatment for over 1000 years for all those non-muslims that had the misfortune to live in muslim countries.


You wanna stop a second mate? If you wanna know what religion i am or whether i am of any religion at all, try asking me instead of telling me.

Code:
 
Christians do not believe Christianity is going to rule the world. I was brought up in a christian household, in a christian country, and went to a christian school, and went to church every sunday. I never, ever heard that Christianity was going to rule the world. Please tell us where it says that in the New Testament. I'd like to know how my family, church and school failed to tell me that. Muslims have certainly told me that islam will dominate the world.


I didn't say it said they'd dominate the world i said that it said that believers and non believers would be seperated and the believers would be taken to the Kingdom of Heaven and the non-believers with perish, now how different is that in principle to muslims believing one day Islam will rule the world? I mean, its the preaching of supremacy in the literal sense of the word, isn't it? And i marvel at you defending of Christianity whilst at the same time being a homosexual, blimey, have you read the book?

Quote:
 
If you'd like to discuss these things with my via PM please do. I'm on a mission to find out why moderate muslims are not joining EDL and are not putting this country and our tolerance for diversity ahead of islam.


Well by virtue of basic logic, ones religion can never really be second fiddle to their nationality...nationality is where you happen to be born and/or live...religions or faiths dictate ones entire understanding of the universe and everything in it.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
keefriffhard
No Avatar
Member
Quote:
 
No religion can say they have at some time been the cause of or the catalyst to violence. There are plenty of people in this world of ours that want their religion to be top dog. The issue with Islam is that unlike many others that have faded with time and enlightenment Islam has not.


Well it is the youngest of the Abrahamic religions.

Code:
 
You speak of the IRA. Yes, there was of course a religious aspect to that. But from my limited understanding it was not the cause. Governance of the province/land was. I understand that one of the reasons they put down their arms was because they did not want to be classed in the same group as Islam. This was a theory that was floating about just after 9/11.


Still terrorism though, isn't it?

Quote:
 
There are plenty of militant christens around the world. They are small in number and will stay that way


Perhaps they thought that about Islamic fundamentalism in the early days too...why not just wipe em all out, be on the safe side? (i'm being facetious, i apologise :D )

Quote:
 
The BNP are trying to go main stream and the NF is all but dead. Because the BNP have allowed non-whites in to their party those NF members have split (or so the internet says). The BNP themselves are on the fringes of political power and serve as a good reminder of what was or could have been. The last election proved this.


The BNP going mainstream isn't far off from being as bad as radical islam going mainstream.


Quote:
 
Islam on the other hard is huge and able to engulf entire counties. Look at how Hamas and the Taliban have acted in the past. Given half the chance they would do the same in the UK. This is why we reject their actions. The further you dig in to Islam the darker it gets. Islam commands immense power and respect that it should not have. Islam seeks to change the very fabric of our nation. This cannot be allowed to happen. We have fought too hard and long to get to where we are now and will not regress.

I am not seeking to point out that one religion or group is better than the other. I am mealy pointing out that one particular group poses a far greater threat to our way of life. Islam is totally incomputable with democracy and fairness, its as simple as that. They are the large threat not the small groups like the KKK, BNP or NF. All of those groups added up would not even fill a concert hall. Islam… Well you know the score.


So you're afraid essentially?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

keefriffhard
May 26 2010, 12:44 PM
Quote:
 
Because Britain is very much a secular society and religion (Christianity) has little sway in what we do and is decreasing year by year. We are also a democracy, Islam is theocratic and forbids being governed by man made laws, it is the very antithesis of our society and culture, so there is a conflict.


That still doesn't alter the fact that there are glaring similarities in the doctrine and you're effectively saying that ones alright and the other isn't, based on an extreme minority and their vocal attitude. Christianity eventually moderatised (if such a word exists) why can the same not be expected of Islam in due course? I mean, the signs are there already in many quarters but people seem to want to ignore them in favour of just going at it tooth and nail, i don't see what will be achieved except hatred and destruction, the very thing we're supposed to be against.

Quote:
 
Tell me, why do you think that there isn't any organisations springing up against Hindus and Sikhs?


Apparently the NF and the BNP have escaped your notice entirely.
"moderatised" Well the reformation of the church happened here in England and happened 500 years ago, I don't particularly want to go through it in my life time through Islam.

I don't see any signs of it becoming more moderate, if anything it is becoming more pious and extreme. Ever since Sayyid Qutb, it has become more extreme and more violent and less tolerant. Surveys done of second and third generation Muslims (in Britain) show them to be less tolerant, a higher level for support for violent jihad and generally less willing to fit in with the British culture and way of life.

The NF isn't against Sikhs or Hindus, they're against people of different colour. Remember, Islam is a belief system, not a genetic feature. Where does it say in the BNP manifesto that they are against Sikhs and Hindus. Non British and immigrants, I think, but not any religion.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

Keef,

Thanks for coming back so concisely. I’m not going to quote you but my answers are as follows:

So being a young religion is justification for murder? Let me answer that for you, it’s not. Murder in the name of any religion is wrong.

Yes, the IRA were terrorists (in my eyes as I’m English). The old saying “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter” could be brought out here. But as you want to do a direct comparison let’s give you an example of the IRA Vs Islam. IRA plant a bomb, call the police and tell them to clear an area. They want to target infrastructure only. There were a number of indecent where innocent people got killed and this was widely condemned.
Islam… Let’s just blow people up and murder as many people as possible.

Comparing the BNP and Islam is laughable. I’ve not seen anyone from the BNP stone a woman to death for being raped. Please correct me if I am wrong. Ok, so they do not like gay people but they do not go round in death squads or street jihad them. You last comment about fear would seem to run true about the BNP here for you.

The NF is dead. They could not organise a piss up in a brewery. They are jealous of the EDL and hate us for being multi faith, multi-cultural and non-discriminatory.

Am I afraid, hell no. Quite the opposite, I just fully understand what Islam is about. Now I have a way of expressing it via the EDL I’m quite comfortable that I will receive and give the support needed by my fellow EDL counter parts.

I can see why you would think all of the above. However things are changing in the UK. Many of the old divisions along the lines of race, religion and creed are fading. Islam is actually doing wonders for race relations. Sadly for Islam they are now seeing the combined population of the UK regardless of race, religion or sexuality standing up to them. I feel very good being able to stand next to Jew, Sikhs and Hindus of every colour as one. We all want to live and work together and prosper in peace. Islam does not.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
keefriffhard
No Avatar
Member
Quote:
 
So being a young religion is justification for murder? Let me answer that for you, it’s not. Murder in the name of any religion is wrong.


Certainly not but your point was that the other religions have dilutted and assimilated fine and i was pointing out that maybe the reason for that was that Islam was the younger one and as a result, still has that path to tread. To my mind, the wheels of it are already in motion.

Code:
 
Yes, the IRA were terrorists (in my eyes as I’m English). The old saying “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter” could be brought out here. But as you want to do a direct comparison let’s give you an example of the IRA Vs Islam. IRA plant a bomb, call the police and tell them to clear an area. They want to target infrastructure only. There were a number of indecent where innocent people got killed and this was widely condemned.
Islam… Let’s just blow people up and murder as many people as possible.


You're not seriously suggesting that the IRA didn't kill innocents are you? Would you be more accepting of extremist Islam then if they targeted strategic military/government infrastructures?


Code:
 
However things are changing in the UK. Many of the old divisions along the lines of race, religion and creed are fading.


Yet you seem to be reticent to the idea of allowing Islam to take the same steps in our social evolution...excuse me for saying this but it smacks of an inherent predudice that i can't seem to find the reason for.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
keefriffhard
No Avatar
Member
Quote:
 
"moderatised" Well the reformation of the church happened here in England and happened 500 years ago, I don't particularly want to go through it in my life time through Islam.


So basically...integration ain't worth the effort? So then how can you possibly be a member of a group that purports to be for equality?

Code:
 
I don't see any signs of it becoming more moderate, if anything it is becoming more pious and extreme. Ever since Sayyid Qutb, it has become more extreme and more violent and less tolerant. Surveys done of second and third generation Muslims (in Britain) show them to be less tolerant, a higher level for support for violent jihad and generally less willing to fit in with the British culture and way of life.


I do, i see the extremism in part as a direct reponse, a fearful response of the westernisation of HUGE cross-sections of their populus...and it scares them...just like extremist islam scares you...see, we're not all that different, eh?

Quote:
 
The NF isn't against Sikhs or Hindus, they're against people of different colour. Remember, Islam is a belief system, not a genetic feature. Where does it say in the BNP manifesto that they are against Sikhs and Hindus. Non British and immigrants, I think, but not any religion.


The NF are against non indigenous british white people. The BNP, until VERY recently, said that you couldn't be British and be a Sikh or a Hindu from India, which would place them squarely under non british i'd say...to their mind at least.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ENUFisENUF
Member Avatar
Kafir
There is only one way for Islam, or any other religion, to be able to legitimise their demands, violence, claims and expectations and that is to show the rest of us that god exists in the first place.
As it stands now all gods have had many thousands of years to show themselves and have dismally failed to do so. Therefore the question must be asked ''Why the f**k should anybody take a single word of a believer seriously let alone respect them or change their ways top suit them or tolerate their actions?''
SHOW ME DA MONEY OR SHUT THE f**k UP.

As religions go, even for an Abrahamic one Islam is a disgrace to common sense and decency.
While other religions have been dragged kicking and screaming into modern times Islam is the ONLY one that ir regressing back to the dark ages.

Also, Islam is not just a religion. It is an ideology, a way of life, a political and financial system...f**k, it's even a dietary regime and a fashion dictatorship.
That said, it doesn't allow its adherrants to stray from the path. They must always accept what is written in the qur'an and hadith and surah as the undiluted truth. (Contrary to popular belief the qur'an hasn't remained the same word for word since it was written but has been through quite a few rewritings, but that's another topic.)

Islam cannot fit in with any other system. It, by its very nature, must stand alone and aloof from all other systems and must always strive to be the dominant one.
I have read the holy books, one doesn't need expert interpretations or specialised training to read the words.It's all there in black and white.
“Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.”-Thomas Jefferson
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
keefriffhard
No Avatar
Member
Right, so, because Islam hasn't evolved as fast as the other Abrahamic religions it needs to be stamped out? Well there's a novel idea well maybe thats cuz its the younger among them?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

keefriffhard, can you please confirm if you are a pakistani muslim. You seem to assert it in one post, then deny it in another.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
keefriffhard
No Avatar
Member
My parents are from Pakistan, i was born in a muslim family but i'm not an anything. I ain't a christian a muslim an atheist an agnostic a mason an elk a branch davidian an ovalteenie...none of it, all i believe in is people, the human race. I believe in music...in art...thats about it really, i don't like to see anybody get hard done by, i don't like predudice, i believe in compromise, compassion, empathy and understanding. I don't believe in treading on no ones feet. I'm interested in everything...fascinated in fact, if i ever do find a system of beliefs that i feel worth building some sort of faith around then i might do so but as it stands the notion seems like a hinderance to...learning...and all i wanna do is learn.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

keefriffhard
May 26 2010, 02:35 PM
Right, so, because Islam hasn't evolved as fast as the other Abrahamic religions it needs to be stamped out? Well there's a novel idea well maybe thats cuz its the younger among them?
keefriffhard, congratulations on not being blinkered by a religion.

Islam has 1300 years to advance - that's long enough. There's no reason for it to be wiped out. If muslims in Britain behaved like jews, sikhs, buddhists or hindus, no-one would have a problem with them.

We don't want our country to become islamic. No one asked the people of Britain if they wanted islam in this country. Our "leaders" decided (for their own purposes) that islam was going to come here. They are the ones who knew what islam was like. They are the ones who are ultimately to blame for this situation. We cannot take the risk that this country is going to become islamic. We want to take steps before Anjem Choudary gets his civil war.

We've seen that muslims are not integrating, are more criminal than average, are demanding more special treatment, and are prepared to threaten and kill to get their way. We are not going to sit quietly, even if our politicians and media are.

It will be interesting to see how many of the millions of muslims in Britain bother to go to the One Law for All demo at Trafalgar Square on 20th June. I'll bet it is considerably less than 1% of those muslims who took to the same location to campaign against the war in Iraq.

Protest about a war in a muslim country: yes.
Protest against the barbarity of sharia: no.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Idjut Bungmewonga
Member Avatar
Patriot
Keef ; in an earlier post you suggested that if the Israel/Palestine issue was "sorted out", the grounds for radicalisation would not be there, I'd suggest this is not the case, lets say for example the state of Israel collapsed tomorrow, the islamists would soon find some other excuse for jihad, ie Chechenya, Kashmir etc, they've even threatened violence against France for wanting to bring in very mild restrictions on the burqah.
The problem with Islam is that it regards any questioning of its authority as some sort of insult and is forever fomenting a "victim culture " amongst its followers so that it can retain control of them and have a ready supply of "martyrs".
Winston Churchill on Islam ; ' The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world....
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
General Pershing
Member Avatar
Patriot
keefriffhard, as a lad brought up in a Muslim home, with Muslim values (I presume) can you tell me your thoughts on Jews and Gays? Do you believe gays should be thrown from a cliff and Jews should be killed? Do you believe that Shari'ah is the way?

When you mention you'd like to see a resolution to the Israel/Palestine conflict, how would you like to see that resolution evolve? Who has the right to Jerusalem and other Isreali lands?

Are you here to offer support for the EDL, to convert us to Islam, or to just waste all our time in a flawed, non sensical debate?

Personally, I can see Islam for what it is. A filthy, disgusting belief system. Everything from terrorism to the inferiority and mutilation of women and children in the name of a God who some see as the devil. Did it ever cross your mind that Islam is actually as evil and disgusting as people say it is?

Bottom line, Islam is not compatible with the west and it will never integrate, it will always strive to dominate or kill. The evidence is there to see throughout the world today. Islam is evil and those who kill, torture and mame on a daily basis in the name of Islam are dirty, disgusting rats who will pay for their actions in hell (inshallah)!!
Edited by General Pershing, May 26 2010, 04:26 PM.
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
keefriffhard
No Avatar
Member
Quote:
 
keefriffhard, as a lad brought up in a Muslim home, with Muslim values (I presume) can you tell me your thoughts on Jews and Gays? Do you believe gays should be thrown from a cliff and Jews should be killed? Do you believe that Shari'ah is the way?


My thoughts on jews? In what regard exactly? I don't really have any all encompassing thoughts about them, you'd have to be a bit more specific, in a general sense, they're just a bunch of people to me, like any other bunch of people...same with gays. I don't believe anybody, even the vilest of criminal, deserve to be killed or thrown from a cliff? Do i think Shari'ah law is the way? The way to what? You're asking me very strange questions..

Quote:
 
When you mention you'd like to see a resolution to the Israel/Palestine conflict, how would you like to see that resolution evolve? Who has the right to Jerusalem and other Isreali lands?


Both of em. Land is for the humans that occupy it, divide it up equally with respect of places of historical importance to the relevant groups and come up with the best solution for all concerned, taking into account the requirements of each party...and nothing besides.

Quote:
 
Are you here to offer support for the EDL, to convert us to Islam, or to just waste all our time in a flawed, non sensical debate?


Neither, i just find the EDL interesting. Apparently you're not listening to me, why would i want to convert you to Islam? Have i even approached sounding like this was my aim? You seem to've made a huge leap there, based on what i have no idea. Waste your time? I'm sorry you feel that way. Perhaps your time would be better spent agreeing and congratulating each other with no one questioning of challenging your beliefs? You're starting to sound like the muslims you seem to enjoy attacking.

Quote:
 
Personally, I can see Islam for what it is. A filthy, disgusting belief system. Everything from terrorism to the inferiority and mutilation of women and children in the name of a God who some see as the devil. Did it ever cross your mind that Islam is actually as evil and disgusting as people say it is?


You could say the same for any religion. No, i don't think its evil and disgusting, no more or less disgusting than any number of cross-sections of society.

Quote:
 
Bottom line, Islam is not compatible with the west and it will never integrate, it will always strive to dominate or kill. The evidence is there to see throughout the world today. Islam is evil and those who kill, torture and mame on a daily basis in the name of Islam are dirty, disgusting rats who will pay for their actions in hell


Very diplomatic and open minded of you ;)

Quote:
 
Keef ; in an earlier post you suggested that if the Israel/Palestine issue was "sorted out", the grounds for radicalisation would not be there, I'd suggest this is not the case, lets say for example the state of Israel collapsed tomorrow, the islamists would soon find some other excuse for jihad, ie Chechenya, Kashmir etc, they've even threatened violence against France for wanting to bring in very mild restrictions on the burqah.


There'll always be problem in life and society and international politics but it is our duty to not be gung ho and aggressive and blind to the possibilities of peaceful resolution. its not kowtowing, its called compromise, a true statesmen will strive for these things, anyone can disagree and start a war.

The burqah is part of their religious dress code, like jews have skullcaps and christians have crosses...ban one, ban em all.

Quote:
 
The problem with Islam is that it regards any questioning of its authority as some sort of insult


What you've hit upon there is the basis of the faith of all of the abrahamic faiths. Questioning Gods divinity in the framework of all the Abrahamic religions is essentially a defecit in your faith and conversely, the work of the devil.

Quote:
 
Islam has 1300 years to advance - that's long enough. There's no reason for it to be wiped out. If muslims in Britain behaved like jews, sikhs, buddhists or hindus, no-one would have a problem with them.

We don't want our country to become islamic. No one asked the people of Britain if they wanted islam in this country. Our "leaders" decided (for their own purposes) that islam was going to come here. They are the ones who knew what islam was like. They are the ones who are ultimately to blame for this situation. We cannot take the risk that this country is going to become islamic. We want to take steps before Anjem Choudary gets his civil war.

We've seen that muslims are not integrating, are more criminal than average, are demanding more special treatment, and are prepared to threaten and kill to get their way. We are not going to sit quietly, even if our politicians and media are.


This ridiculous notion that there is actually some sort of real chance of England EVER being a Shar'ria state is SOOO hilairious, a handful of arseholes make some bad noise and suddenly you lot are all pissing your pants, Lord help us if there ever is a real present immediate threat to our way of life.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ageofreason
No Avatar
Member
;) Keefiffhard, is student your full time job?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
keefriffhard
No Avatar
Member
I'm 26 years old and i've got 4 GCSE's 11 years ago :P
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
lancashirelad
No Avatar
Patriot
Keefriffhard if your not interested in religion, you dont define yourself as having a religion, what are you whining about, why dont you go and help save the rainforest and the whale.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hindu4EDL
Member Avatar

General Black Jack Pershing
May 26 2010, 04:23 PM
keefriffhard, as a lad brought up in a Muslim home, with Muslim values (I presume) can you tell me your thoughts on Jews and Gays? Do you believe gays should be thrown from a cliff and Jews should be killed? Do you believe that Shari'ah is the way?

When you mention you'd like to see a resolution to the Israel/Palestine conflict, how would you like to see that resolution evolve? Who has the right to Jerusalem and other Isreali lands?

Are you here to offer support for the EDL, to convert us to Islam, or to just waste all our time in a flawed, non sensical debate?

Personally, I can see Islam for what it is. A filthy, disgusting belief system. Everything from terrorism to the inferiority and mutilation of women and children in the name of a God who some see as the devil. Did it ever cross your mind that Islam is actually as evil and disgusting as people say it is?

Bottom line, Islam is not compatible with the west and it will never integrate, it will always strive to dominate or kill. The evidence is there to see throughout the world today. Islam is evil and those who kill, torture and mame on a daily basis in the name of Islam are dirty, disgusting rats who will pay for their actions in hell (inshallah)!!
excellent post and sums it up for me.
Posted Image

"If Islam only had 1,000 members, we would've branded it a criminal organization and a death cult, jailed its leaders, killed their terrorists and disbanded it for promoting hatred, polygamy, pedophilia, misogyny and waging war against non-muslims.

The day our civilization realizes this fact and isn't afraid to defend freedom/democracy, is the day this evil ideology will begin to be eliminated from humanity forever."-hindu4edl
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
keefriffhard
No Avatar
Member
Quote:
 
Keefriffhard if your not interested in religion, you dont define yourself as having a religion, what are you whining about, why dont you go and help save the rainforest and the whale.


Well y'see, i don't feel i have to be a part of something to stick up for it if i believe its being maligned or wronged. I'm weird like that. Also, i never said i wasn't interested in religion, to the contrary i said i was fascinated by everything, its just that i don't believe in any particular one. There is a difference.
Edited by keefriffhard, May 26 2010, 05:17 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hindu4EDL
Member Avatar


Quote:
 
You could say the same for any religion. No, i don't think its evil and disgusting, no more or less disgusting than any number of cross-sections of society.


What else would we expect an apologist for Islam and a worshipper of a pedophile-terrorist to say?


Quote:
 
There'll always be problem in life and society and international politics but it is our duty to not be gung ho and aggressive and blind to the possibilities of peaceful resolution. its not kowtowing, its called compromise, a true statesmen will strive for these things, anyone can disagree and start a war.


Oh you're here to tell us how to think and how "we" should act. There will be no peace between muslims and non-muslims until the death cult of Islam disappears. Islam is geared towards division, enmity and warfare between these two groups-1400 years, 270 million deaths, the destruction of countless civilizations is testament to this fact.

Quote:
 
The burqah is part of their religious dress code, like jews have skullcaps and christians have crosses...ban one, ban em all.


Jews and Christians aren't expecting us to follow their religious customs. Muslims however consider uncovered women to be sluts/whores deserving of rape (and are responsible for the rape epidemics in places like Sweden).

Your death cult doesn't deserve the privileges afforded to the other religions because they know their place, while muslims try to impose their values on everyone else. If you kept you beliefs to yourselves we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Quote:
 
This ridiculous notion that there is actually some sort of real chance of England EVER being a Shar'ria state is SOOO hilairious, a handful of arseholes make some bad noise and suddenly you lot are all pissing your pants, Lord help us if there ever is a real present immediate threat to our way of life.


Ya they laughed about the Nazis taking over and it took WW2 to stop them...Islam being a similar fascist totalitarian dogma will eventually likewise end up on the dung-heap of history where it belongs.
Posted Image

"If Islam only had 1,000 members, we would've branded it a criminal organization and a death cult, jailed its leaders, killed their terrorists and disbanded it for promoting hatred, polygamy, pedophilia, misogyny and waging war against non-muslims.

The day our civilization realizes this fact and isn't afraid to defend freedom/democracy, is the day this evil ideology will begin to be eliminated from humanity forever."-hindu4edl
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hindu4EDL
Member Avatar

keefriffhard
May 26 2010, 05:15 PM
Quote:
 
Keefriffhard if your not interested in religion, you dont define yourself as having a religion, what are you whining about, why dont you go and help save the rainforest and the whale.


Well y'see, i don't feel i have to be a part of something to stick up for it if i believe its being maligned or wronged. I'm weird like that. Also, i never said i wasn't interested in religion, to the contrary i said i was fascinated by everything, its just that i don't believe in any particular one. There is a difference.
You don't believe in any 'particular' religion, yet you just happen to be a pakistani who refuses to denounce Islam and would help rescue a Taliban fighter (or a Nazi) if he was hurt.

Why be coy about being a muslim, are you ashamed of your religion? Did you invent your online persona to appear moderate and more appealing to soft-in-the-head liberal types?

What do you think you're accomplishing being here? If I went on some muslim boards, it'd probably just be to rile the muslims up for shiits and giggles.
Edited by Hindu4EDL, May 26 2010, 05:47 PM.
Posted Image

"If Islam only had 1,000 members, we would've branded it a criminal organization and a death cult, jailed its leaders, killed their terrorists and disbanded it for promoting hatred, polygamy, pedophilia, misogyny and waging war against non-muslims.

The day our civilization realizes this fact and isn't afraid to defend freedom/democracy, is the day this evil ideology will begin to be eliminated from humanity forever."-hindu4edl
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

Keefriffhard, we would never ask you to leave mate. We are not like that, we don’t censor or gag anyone. Free speech can sometimes be ugly or unpleasant.

We have Muslim members on here who, like the majority of people here do not make excuses for Islam and its violent ways. As often they have been the victims of honour or religions crimes.

Many people on here have very different viewpoints, ides, political affiliation and religions. However we all have one thing in common, we are not blinded to the blatant hostility of Islam.

Feel free to express your views with us, but expect to be countered when if the oppose the main them. The them is protesting against Islam being imposed on the UK.

This thread is about why moderate Muslims do not stand up and get counted against those who seek to impose Islam on us. I think you have gone a long way to explaining how a this works. Thanks, you have helped me understand a little more about Islam. Cheers and I’ll raise a beer to you.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
keefriffhard
No Avatar
Member
Quote:
 
You don't believe in any 'particular' religion, yet you just happen to be a pakistani who refuses to denounce Islam and would help rescue a Taliban fighter (or a Nazi) if he was hurt.


My point was i'd rescue ANYONE if i could. Its about human life and nothing to do with nationalities and religion, which i deem to be bulls**t when held up against the value of a human life.

Quote:
 
Why be coy about being a muslim, are you ashamed of your religion? Did you invent your online persona to appear moderate and more appealing to soft-in-the-head liberal types?


Coy? Excuse me? What other language would you like me to say i am not a muslim in?

Quote:
 
What do you think you're accomplishing being here?


Talking to people, communicating, conversing, learning about something i'm interested in.

Quote:
 
What else would we expect an apologist for Islam and a worshipper of a pedophile-terrorist to say?


its funny how you're a part of an organisation that denounces islam for being fascists yet there you are sitting there, not knowing me from Adam, telling me what i believe in...thats sort of fascist for someone against fascism.

Quote:
 
Oh you're here to tell us how to think and how "we" should act. There will be no peace between muslims and non-muslims until the death cult of Islam disappears. Islam is geared towards division, enmity and warfare between these two groups-1400 years, 270 million deaths, the destruction of countless civilizations is testament to this fact.


No, i'm not telling you how to think and how to act, i thought this was just a given, tenets of basic decency, is everybody that jumps into a fight telling people to calm down telling them what to do and how to act? So basically...destroy Islam, thats your ideology? Funny that, i thought the EDL was going for extremist Islam, not to wipe an entire faith, the fast growing religion and i believe one of the 4 biggest off the planet? Thats an awful lot of the population of this world you're against.

Quote:
 
Jews and Christians aren't expecting us to follow their religious customs. Muslims however consider uncovered women to be sluts/whores deserving of rape (and are responsible for the rape epidemics in places like Sweden).


Yeah but the laws in France are limiting muslim peoples right to wear the Burqah. and again, citing every muslim for the actions of a few is sort of ridiculous. Its like me blaming all Christians for children that get molested by Roman Catholic priests.

Quote:
 
Your death cult doesn't deserve the privileges afforded to the other religions because they know their place, while muslims try to impose their values on everyone else. If you kept you beliefs to yourselves we wouldn't be having this discussion.


Again, stop telling me what i am or am not in terms of my beliefs, i don't do it to you so please don't do it to me. Honestly, if i'm being rude and abusive i get banned, if i try and have a polite and straightforward discussion i'm accused of being coy and manipulative and a liar. So basically, i either support you or i'm wrong? Don't wash pal, not with me.

Quote:
 
Ya they laughed about the Nazis taking over and it took WW2 to stop them...Islam being a similar fascist totalitarian dogma will eventually likewise end up on the dung-heap of history where it belongs.


Thank you, your clairvoyant predictions are much appreciated although i'm not sure what i'm expected to say in response to them.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
keefriffhard
No Avatar
Member
Quote:
 
Keefriffhard, we would never ask you to leave mate. We are not like that, we don’t censor or gag anyone. Free speech can sometimes be ugly or unpleasant.

We have Muslim members on here who, like the majority of people here do not make excuses for Islam and its violent ways. As often they have been the victims of honour or religions crimes.

Many people on here have very different viewpoints, ides, political affiliation and religions. However we all have one thing in common, we are not blinded to the blatant hostility of Islam.

Feel free to express your views with us, but expect to be countered when if the oppose the main them. The them is protesting against Islam being imposed on the UK.

This thread is about why moderate Muslims do not stand up and get counted against those who seek to impose Islam on us. I think you have gone a long way to explaining how a this works. Thanks, you have helped me understand a little more about Islam. Cheers and I’ll raise a beer to you.


Cheers mate, appreciated. Just to clarify, i'm not here on a wind up or a piss take, i'm genuinely interested in the EDL and i think my posts have conveyed that and have never been flippant except when confronted by flippancy. As i say, i wouldn't call myself a supporter, i saw this thing about the EDL on the telly and i found it really interesting, a potentially seminal organisation in terms of its views regarding diversity of membership and coming together of the working classes and so forth. But i also think there's a clear potential (based on my limited knowledge of the EDL) of it being overrun by something quite old and sort of sinister.

Either way, i wouldn't dream of insulting anyone that wasn't being insulting to me and i'm not flippant about anyones beliefs...ever.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gorgie
Member Avatar
Kafir
Kaffir, I realise you are debating with quite a few people at a time, so I will make my point quick.

You mention that Islam is a young religion, so needs time to evolve? Well most religions evolve and develop as the society they are present in, not the other way around. (different places have developed more than others so religion will be interpreted differently)

Shouldn't Islam have evolved by now?
"One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half. Never run away from anything. Never!"

"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."


Winston Churchill
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Bro
No Avatar

I've yet to come across any person from any faith who can explain the presence of dinosaurs upon the earth that was created by "their God".

All praise Bill Hicks the prophet of common sense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrZcztxRquo&feature=related
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
keefriffhard
No Avatar
Member
Quote:
 
Kaffir, I realise you are debating with quite a few people at a time, so I will make my point quick.

You mention that Islam is a young religion, so needs time to evolve? Well most religions evolve and develop as the society they are present in, not the other way around. (different places have developed more than others so religion will be interpreted differently)

Shouldn't Islam have evolved by now?


Its Keef sir, Keef Riffhard, a play on the name of Keith Richards of Rolling Stones fame ;)

And to answer your question i think its in a state of flux...a state of evolution. Seeing things from the inside i can honestly say that in my 26 years on this earth things have changed drastically for Islam or muslims, especially in this country. A lot of the fundamental tenets are highly compromised and will continue to do so, this is just how things, how societies evolve.

The Islam that i was subject to growing up is not the same Islam with the same strictness of rules that my nieces and nephews are subject to by virtue of their anglocised parents and generally being divorced from and set apart from Pakistani muslim culture, these things are inevitable, the old timers talk about it all the time, how things are not the same and how we're different and our kids are gonna be even differenter (sp). Islam in this corner of the world is in flux at the moment and the extremists are getting more and more marginalised.

I think people fail to realise that for every radicalised muslim there are hundreds of doctors, lawyers or even just young lads and lasses coming out of the universities and colleges of this world with a very different idea of life than their parents. Not that their parentses was evil, its just different and ever evolving, just like the attitudes of any other peoples in this world. I mean, compare what was acceptable to english society say...in the 40s in relation to now...or even the 60s. Change comes by itself.

If anything, aggressive attitudes like some (some, not all by a long chalk) conveyed here only further serve to radicalise the more impressionable young kids that buy into the rantings of a very small minority that, by virtue of how loud they shout, always seem to get heard. Its a shame.

But just think about this and bear this in mind, everytime a young impressionable muslim kid sees a group of grown men standing in the street raging and frothing at the mouth, screaming Allah, Allah, who the f**k is Allah?!?! you've basically done all you can as a non muslim to radicalise that child...it creates hatred. When you slag of Islam you don't just insult and hurt the extremists (who are expecting it of you anyway) you also confuse and distort the impressionable young that perhaps are more susceptible to the faux-romance of jihad that these monsters propagate and really, as a non muslim, thats the closest thing to joining Al Qaeda and helping Al Qaeda that a non muslim can possibly do.

Quote:
 
All praise Bill Hicks the prophet of common sense


Hicks is/was a f**king legend!!! :):)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
General Pershing
Member Avatar
Patriot
This lad can type :)

I'm not going to be drawn into yet another pointless discussion about Islam when I know fine well what Islam is. EVIL! I take it you're familiar with the word taquiaa where Muslims are told to lie when under threat to ensure their survival? I believe there's a lorra taquiaa going on in the west. A friend sent me a quote that pretty much sums up the dangers of the 'seemingly' moderate (taquiaa practicing) Muslims out there:

“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear. The traitor is the plague.” -Marcus Tullius Cicero

Wise words! What's happened to the wise men who once lead our great nations and who used to know the score so well? Why are our elite leaders now just a bunch of overgrown sissy schoolboys and Islam appeasing fools? Where are the men these days? I guess it's just a twist of fate that the over educated, wannabe politician types tend to be as soft as s**te and altogether soft in the head.

Personally, faced with a threat like Islamism, I'd have our soldiers on the streets, closing down mosques and weeding out terrorist plotting scum bags and potential enemy threats. I'd leave no stone unturned and I'd stop at nothing to protect this land from this Torjan Horse! Our national identity has been undermined and our country is being taken over by Islam. Believe it or not, it's true. Something needs doing about it! NOW!!

All the gibberish and meaningless debate from our new Muslim friend is getting us nowhere. It's certainly doing nothing to further our cause. People, let's remember the real objective of the EDL and let's take to the streets in peaceful protest at the Islamisation of our land! Let's be loud and let's make ourselves heard! Newcastle... E...E... EDL!! E...E... EDL! We need to wake up our fellow countrymen!
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
keefriffhard
No Avatar
Member
Sorry, gibberish? Which part was it that you didn't understand, i'd be happy to clarify for you.

And as far as meaningless debate, what do you think it is that internet forums are for? Airing views, disagreeing, discussing, is this not the main function of a public forum?

The fact of the matter is sir, that you have your mind made up on a REALLY REALLY foul notion. I mean, the very idea of the title of this thread that "peaceful moderate muslims are irrelevant" its like a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. If they're peaceful, they're irrelevant (or worse still, apparently, sleeper cells of spies and traitors in your estimation) and if they are aggressive and vocal they are a threat. Basically, you're saying if you're a muslim you cannot be tolerated because you are evil, no, don't explain to us your beliefs or that you're moderate because we know you're lying, no we don't need to prove it because we just know because you MUST be a liar by virtue of what you are.

For the first time on this forum (only been here a day) i am actually PROPER horrified. There is just no redemption for muslims in your mind, is there? I suprised that you feel yourself representative of the EDL because as far as i was aware this is not the type of mentality that they are/were/or have ever been propagating unless i'm the one thats mistaken.

Jesus, how far is all that from what the nazi's thought about jews...inherently corrupt, need getting rid of, evil...you can't honestly believe all this, can you? When you walk down the street, past a muslim, or someone like me, brown skinned, normal casual dress, what goes through your mind? Do you honestly believe the stuff pouring out of you, seriously?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
General Pershing
Member Avatar
Patriot
I wont be drawn into your taqquia bulls**t. In another thread, you seem to think that we're all making a mountain out of a mole hill since Islamic fruitbats have 'only actually bombed the UK once'. ...... You go on to say that 'we all act like Islam is bombing us every day'......

You're no better than a terrorist piece of s**t and I don't debate with terrorists..... Not unless it's toe-to-toe, like a regular John Smeeton, Wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire!
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
keefriffhard
No Avatar
Member
Quote:
 
I wont be drawn into your taqquia bulls**t. In another thread, you seem to think that we're all making a mountain out of a mole hill since Islamic fruitbats have 'only actually bombed the UK once'. ...... You go on to say that 'we all act like Islam is bombing us every day'......


Yes, in direct response to a number of people in said topic acting outwardly paranoid and hysterical about something that they seemed to be saying was a constant threat when...there isn't really that much evidence for it.

Quote:
 
You're no better than a terrorist piece of s**t and I don't debate with terrorists..... Not unless it's toe-to-toe, like a regular John Smeeton, Wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire!


No better than a terrorist, really? For suggesting that people calm down and not behave irrationally? Surely i'm a little better than a terrorist? Just a tiny bit? Oh PLEEEEEEEEEEEASE, i at least wannabe at Satanist level :D

Righhtttt, okaaayyyyy...carry on general sir, nice to see you can back up your points and perspectives with well reasoned beliefs backed up by sensible points of view...oh sorry, you don't debate with terrorists, i'm sorry, yes, i forgot, well i'm gonna go and spread more terror by telling het up people to calm down so if you'll excuse me sir, i'll be off.

BUH BYYYEEEEEEE!!! *waves disjointedly* :D
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
General Pershing
Member Avatar
Patriot
keefriffhard
May 26 2010, 07:20 PM
Yeah, go on, cuz that'll be great for England eh? Wait til the next terrorist attack (God, you act like there's one every week, we've only ever actually had the one) and then go out in the streets in droves and mobs and go brick mosque windows and scare seven shades of s**t out of a percentage of your population...cuz every problem in the world was solved by this sort of mob retaliation, eh?


Like I say, I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire. You're a terrorist loving c**t!
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
keefriffhard
No Avatar
Member
Really? Oh well nevermind eh, i don't suppose you have enough to put it out anyway...might even end up prolonging it...seconds thoughts, wanna reconsider? LOL
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Room 101
Member Avatar
Member
keefriffhard
May 26 2010, 09:20 PM
The fact of the matter is sir, that you have your mind made up on a REALLY REALLY foul notion. I mean, the very idea of the title of this thread that "peaceful moderate Muslims are irrelevant" its like a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. If they're peaceful, they're irrelevant (or worse still, apparently, sleeper cells of spies and traitors in your estimation) and if they are aggressive and vocal they are a threat. Basically, you're saying if you're a muslim you cannot be tolerated because you are evil, no, don't explain to us your beliefs or that you're moderate because we know you're lying, no we don't need to prove it because we just know because you MUST be a liar by virtue of what you are.

This is a grate point and very well point, is it right that non-Muslims sate that the Muslim religion is "Evil" in its totality, that even (as the topics title says) peaceful moderate Muslims are part of this Definition through inaction?

The argument being at its core

"The only thing necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing"

But is that true?

I have a test I give to Muslims I meet, I call it the

"Apostasy Test"

Its very simple and you can try this at home
heres how it works.

1st Understand what Apostasy is
Apostasy is the formal religious disaffiliation, abandonment, or renunciation of one's religion. That's right its means losing ones faith to the point of telling the world that.
As Farther Dougal dos to Farther Ted
"Ted this whole religion thing is a load of rubbish isn't it, I mean come on now"

It part of the process of converting to another faith.

2ed Under Stand What the Muslim Faith and its big book of god thinks about Apostasy and Apostates. It is this An apostates deserves to be punished. If a believer walks away and tells the world they have lost faith, they have committed a crime. For which they have to be punished, not in the after life but in this one. You think I'm joking?
In the United Arab Emirates Crimes punishable by death include murder, rape, armed robbery, apostasy and drug trafficking. many more Muslim states also punish apostasy but for now lets stick with the test.

3ed Ask the Believer in Islam what they think about apostasy?

Thats alls just ask do they think apostasy should be punished?
I think you may be shocked as what some Moderate Muslims
say in response.

After doing my test for a number of year the one thing I have never heard back is some thing that matches The United Nations Commission on Human Rights views that

"The Committee observes that the freedom to 'have or to adopt' a religion or belief necessarily entails the freedom to choose a religion or belief, including the right to replace one's current religion or belief with another or to adopt atheistic views [...] Article 18.2 bars coercion that would impair the right to have or adopt a religion or belief, including the use of threat of physical force or penal sanctions to compel believers or non-believers to adhere to their religious beliefs and congregations, to recant their religion or belief or to convert.

You asked keefriffhard why Islam stands out, why it is seen as some how not fitting in with other faiths and its basically this.

Built in Intolerance hard coded in to the Holy Book and the vast majority of Muslims alive today see apostasy as a serious crime.

That's wrong very very wrong, faith like life is free and a human right.
To think other wise as my "Apostasy Test" often shows is to be Intolerant and barbaric. The world has moved on Mankind has moved on its catch up time and as they say "intolerance breeds intolerance"
the Muslim faith as a whole is just finding out how intolerance the Modern world can be with this old world thinking.

Think I'm Wrong, well why to try my "Apostasy Test" and see.

Yours with all due respect
Skaffin

Edited by Room 101, May 26 2010, 10:58 PM.

"You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world.”

O'Brien - 1984
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Idjut Bungmewonga
Member Avatar
Patriot
Keef ; you talk about moderate muslims who are put off by "right wingers" etc (by which I take you mean people like us - even though I'm not right wing).
OK - last November there was a rally against sharia law organised by the One Law For All group that drew about 150 people, myself included, the main organiser is on the central committee of the Iranian Communist Party - hardly a "right winger" (by the way, I don't agree with communism either), where were all the "moderate muslims" who could have gone on this demo ? what was their excuse ? the biggest single group attending was Iranian exiles, with very few Pakistani muslims/ex-muslims.
Winston Churchill on Islam ; ' The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world....
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
guypatriot
No Avatar
Member
fern
May 26 2010, 02:11 AM
Good posts.

It is quite naive to believe that the 'moderate muslim' will ever stand up in great numbers and be counted. You will always get the odd brave peep, but they certainly won't ever be seen in their droves.

Where were they ALL after 9/11 and 7/7?

Have we ever witnessed muslims flocking to the streets in their tens of thousands to protest against Islam committing such gross blatant acts of genocide/ethnic cleansing?

No, they haven't and they never will. So don't waste your time holding your breath.
Hi Fern

Good post. I've read some of Studio's stuff here and see his concerns.

I think its fair to say that it is a common thread that people at large ask the question of Muslim demos against the likes of 7/7 etc. or even demos to confront the likes of Choudary. That is there doesn't seem to be any.

I believe that one of the reasons for this seeming apathy is not so much support for the likes of Choudary in what he is advocating however that his presence is good for the Muslim community in giving it a stronger hand. Since the invasion of Afghanistan, Iraq and then 7/7 the political establishment has looked to fast track Muslims into positions of relative authority.

Hence a show of strength by moderate Muslims against Islamists will no longer have them seen as the squeaky wheel which will impair the progress of people from their community into more senior positions of government and influence. Hence as a community it is good for them to be seen to have a dangerous element that could ignite as it gives them more bargaining power with government. Likewise it is good for them to be seen as persecuted as it plays into their hands in industries like the media looking to promote more Muslims into senior roles on guilt complex.

Hence why would they want to give this up.

Regards
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

Quote:
 
Seeing things from the inside i can honestly say that in my 26 years on this earth things have changed drastically for Islam or muslims, especially in this country. A lot of the fundamental tenets are highly compromised and will continue to do so, this is just how things, how societies evolve.

The Islam that i was subject to growing up is not the same Islam with the same strictness of rules that my nieces and nephews are subject to by virtue of their anglocised parents and generally being divorced from and set apart from Pakistani muslim culture, these things are inevitable, the old timers talk about it all the time, how things are not the same and how we're different and our kids are gonna be even differenter (sp). Islam in this corner of the world is in flux at the moment and the extremists are getting more and more marginalised.
Quote:
 


Your argument from authority is actually just one (young) man's very limited point of view. Survey data shows the exact opposite of what you are asserting:
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6309983.stm

On a whole range of key issues concerning islamic extremism (desire for sharia law, exection of apostates, support for muslim terrorism), young muslims are 3x more extreme than their parents. That was in 2007.

None of us can predict the future outcomes of the actions in a complex society (if we could we'd be rich). But the radicalization has come first. EDL is a response to that.

And when it comes to personal experience, many of us who live in muslim-dominated areas can see with our own eyes how extreme and aggressive muslim zealots have become in the past 10 years. The events of 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Bali, and the murders and death threats have just been the newsworthy events that reflect that everyday radicalization.

I couldn't care less if Sir Keith is an extreme muslim, a moderate muslim or an ex-muslim. His lack of involvement and his complacency when the facts around him (on both a personal and a global scale) are the opposite of what he claims, shows it's a waste of time engaging with him. I used to think it was just dialogue with religious muslims that was a waste of time. I'm starting to question if any dialogue is worth while.

We know from the example of Abdul and Sajj what patriotic muslims are doing. Muslims who support EDL are welcome. To hell with the rest. The issue of the existence of a moderate muslim majority is irrelevant.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
keefriffhard
No Avatar
Member
Quote:
 
couldn't care less if Sir Keith is an extreme muslim, a moderate muslim or an ex-muslim. His lack of involvement and his complacency when the facts around him (on both a personal and a global scale) are the opposite of what he claims, shows it's a waste of time engaging with him.


What do you call an ideology where differing views from ones own are untenable?

Quote:
 
The issue of the existence of a moderate muslim majority is irrelevant.


It isn't when the primary tenet of your doctrine is fight against extremist Islam. I'd say that precisely at that point the existence of a moderate muslim becomes central to your belief system in that it is what differentiates from those with you and against you.

Quote:
 
I'm starting to question if any dialogue is worth while.


There's the language of civilised :blink:
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
studio
No Avatar
banned
Says the man who claimed that 20 years of BNP racism was OK because there was a black police association.

You will never find what your refusing to look for. You do not want a moderate Muslim, you want them lapsed like Abdul, but refuse to accept that secular Muslims can exist.

each to their own. You can save your bullet though, if I am wrong they will shoot me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

studio
May 26 2010, 11:16 PM
Says the man who claimed that 20 years of BNP racism was OK because there was a black police association.
Tut, tut. 2/10 for scholarship. I do not believe you will ever find that particularly asinine remark was one that can be attributed to me.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

The demonising of Islam is similar to the demonising of Nazism.

There are also striking similarities between the two ideologies.

Most people wouldn't warm to moderate nazis. Why should people warm to moderate Islam?
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

keefriffhard
May 26 2010, 11:15 PM
Quote:
 
The issue of the existence of a moderate muslim majority is irrelevant.


It isn't when the primary tenet of your doctrine is fight against extremist Islam. I'd say that precisely at that point the existence of a moderate muslim becomes central to your belief system in that it is what differentiates from those with you and against you.
Those who claim there are moderate muslims have been free to go out among them and talk to them of EDL.

These believers don't do this because they are scared of the immoderate violence from these moderate muslims, or they fail because these muslims are not moderate. Since British Muslims for Secular Democracy and One Law for All get virtually no support from these millions of moderate muslims, we have to conclude they are irrelevant. EDL will not get their support if BMSD cannot get it. BMSD needs their support, we don't. So why waste our time considering moderate moslems.

The existence, size, and actions of moderate muslims are all irrelevant. EDL is targeting muslim extremists.

We can recruit 1 million muslims, or 10 million non-muslims. That is why they are irrelevant. EDL does not need quotas.

Bugger muslims, I say.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · EDL Chat · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Feliz Navidad (Gold) created by Sarah & Delirium of the ZNR