Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Edl The Forum. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
Sewing up little girls' vaginas and cutting a way in; More sickening filth and barbarism
Topic Started: Apr 9 2010, 12:25 AM (567 Views)
Deleted User
Deleted User

Homo Sapien
Apr 10 2010, 02:18 PM
I'd go further. In my experience, male circumcision is also a bad thing. All the men I've met who have been circumcised (all muslim) have been left with scarring, and many have a lot of trouble having sexual enjoyment. Male circumcision should be seen as a form of child abuse. If someone was physically mutilating a little boy in any other circumstances we would be outraged. It too should be banned. If an adult man wants to get circumcised (or get a tattoo) that is his business. Parents should not have the right to do this to their children without medical grounds.
I wonder if Studio considers male circumcision "unislamic" too? :ermm:
Quote Post Goto Top
 
studio
No Avatar
banned
it is expected within islam
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
studio
No Avatar
banned
Are you Peter? I am useing the readily available google search.

You would have to be able to prove that the correlation between Islam and FGM is irrefutable. You can not prove its wide spread and mainstream use out side of Africa. You could not prove that 50% of the muslim women walking around Bolton today have suffered any form of FGM. In fact I think 99% of them would not know what you are talking about (whether you talked to them in English or Urdu)

And as you cant prove that the call fails in the eyes of a jury, you are seen to make wild, inaccurate and misleading claims. Your general stand point is then called into question but dismissed without regard due to the circumstantial evidence used here - poorly researched, wildly inaccurate and misleading to the point of negligence.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

Studio, have you been to any EDL demo? Are you a member of any EDL division? Have you done anything outside of this forum to further the work of EDL? You seem to be so concerned about the arguments EDL might make. I want to know if you are an onlooker or a supporter.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
curiousEDL
No Avatar

It seems the link with Islam is tenuous on this one.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5913979.ece

I would agree fully with what Studio is saying. There's no point trying to pin so many things on Islam, when there is a wealth of well documented problems already.
The middle England fact check will smash this one to pieces.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

Then you should have no problem finding the evidence and bringing it here then. can you do that Studio?

You are deliberately trying to expand the argument to cover your erroneous statement earlier. Concerning khafd the provisions in Islamic law are not clear. Neither the authority nor the meaning of the hadiths on this topic are undisputed. Regarding khafd there is disagreement among the scholars. Some hold it as a requirement of Islam, like the 13th-century jurist al-Nawawi, while others state it to be preferable or recommended. On the other hand some muftis are of the opinion that the shari’a does not justify this operation. This is in accord with the fact that the Muslim community is split about the subject and as you have correctly pointed out, most Muslims do not practice khafd. That means that no ijma exists with regards to the subject of khafd.


Now you need to substantiate your assertion that khafd is "unislamic" - this can only be achieved by providing proof of a unanimous judgement by the ulama. Now can you provide the evidence or not? A link will do.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

I don't think someone's arguments are any less valid if they are not (or not able to be) active supporters of EDL.

Male circumcision is mainstream in America and so isn't exclusively Islamic. I think it's fucking obscene.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

studio
Apr 10 2010, 12:25 PM
Because its not Islamic, its cultural. But take the details to middle England and see where you get....
What is this "middle england" fiction you are using? As the New Statesman points out: "Middle England is such a vague and inchoate concept that we are easily misled into thinking that it is ten times more threatening than it really is. [...] To use the term Middle England is to attempt to reinforce Britain's old class structure, and anyone who wants to do that is likely to have devious intentions at heart." (http://www.newstatesman.com/200405240017)

You're acting like "middle england" is some court of law, and we are presenting a case that needs to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. While I often present evidence that anyone here can go and look up, it's really not necessary. A significant minority of people in Britain (possibly even the majority) are already hostile to islam. They are just too scared to say it, for fear of being called "racist". Such has the power of political correctness been in this country.

Opposition to islam is not something that is confined to the fringes of society and that your fiction of "middle england" is going to run from. 22,000 people in Dudley opposed the building of the Mega Mosque; only a few thousand signatures in support of it could be found. Is Dudley located in your fictitious "middle england"?

There's a discussion elsewhere in this forum about capital punishment; a surprising number are against it. There's another couple of threads on the "political compass" - many people turn out to be left-wing/libertarian on here. And amongst the EDL people I know over on FB (a younger crowd, I think) they are probably more left-wing/libertarian than on here (admittedly that could be an effect of the filtering that goes on by the nature of Facebook. I'm really proud to be involved in an organization like EDL that opposes islamization and is not racist.

EDL is supported by a much wider diversity of people than the BNP, and the BNP got almost 1 million votes last year. Considering that UKIP is now also a party setting out opposition to islamization, ceteris paribus, there may well be about 4 million voters this year who get a chance to show their opposition to islam.

Last year when I approached all my leftie/liberal friends with my fears about islam, it turned out they all agreed with me. This was a subject about which we had never spoken before, and I was expecting to have to argue my corner fiercely, but not at all. Among my circle there is no-one who will defend islam.

So, I say "boo" to your bogey-man of "middle england". EDL is not a political party that needs 40% of the electorate on its side to win a general election. It does not have to worry about vague and inchoate concepts like "middle england". The media are refusing to publish any statement made by EDL, and the issue of FGM has not even been brought up in public statements.

Let the muslims make the argument about whether FGM is islamic or cultural. The public need to be informed that it is practised by groups of muslims in this country, and that those groups believe it to be justified on islamic grounds. Women (and girls) in islam have such low status, that islam is itself a part of the problem in addressing FGM. Furthermore, the choices made by muslims (and by the establishment) in allowing muslim women to be excluded from wider society (by social as well as linguistic barriers) is also part of the problem.

I'm hoping that as part of the debate this society needs to have, that male circumcision will also be made illegal. If that kind of child abuse is so important to muslims (or jews) then I think they need to go and live in countries that accept it. Considering this country's high-level of concern with the abuse of children, circumcision must be banned.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

Knuckles
Apr 10 2010, 05:11 PM
I don't think someone's arguments are any less valid if they are not (or not able to be) active supporters of EDL.

Male circumcision is mainstream in America and so isn't exclusively Islamic. I think it's f**king obscene.
If someone is genuinely concerned with furthering the cause of the EDL, I don't mind what their arguments are. If someone is concerned with trying to head off criticism of islam, I'd like to know that they are a genuine supporter of EDL. Studio is making strong claims to defend islam from criticism over FGM. Peter is rightly holding a firm position.

This is the English Defence League. We are defending our values, not what is done in America. We don't accept that the mutilation of children is acceptable. Some minority religions in this country do accept this (in the forms of genital mutilation). Those religions should be exposed to public opinion.

If Studio had his way, EDL would not be drawing attention to these forms of genital mutilation. I'm curious as to Studio's motivation.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

Here are some 'Islamic' commentaries on this alleged "un-islamic" practice:

Imam Nawawi said (commenting on the hadith of Abu Hurayra in Muslim): "Circumcision is obligatory (wajib) according to al- Shafi`i and many of the scholars, sunna according to Malik and the majority of them. It is further, according to Shafi`i, equally obligatory for males and females. As regards males it is obligatory to cut off the whole prepuce or skin which covers the glans or head of the penis, so that the latter is wholly denudated. As regards females, it is obligatory to cut off a minute part of the skin in the highest region of the genitals. The sound view in our school (Shafi`i), which is shared by the large majority of our companions, is that circumcision is allowed in a youthful age but not obligatory (at that time). One view is that the guardian must have the child circumcised before he or she reaches puberty. Another view is that circumcision is prohibited before the tenth year. The sound view according to us, is that circumcision is desirable on the seventh day after birth."

Nuh Keller's Translation of al-Misri's "Reliance of the Traveller" (Shafi`i school) p. 59: "Circumcision is obligatory (Sh. `Umar Barakat: for both men and women). For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce (bazr) of the clitoris (Keller: not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert). (Sh. `Abd al-Wakil Durubi: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.)"

Ibn Hajar said (commenting on the chapter-heading in Bukhari, Ghusl ch. 28 #291; English 1:174, which is identical with `A'isha's hadith in Tirmidhi): "What is meant by the dual form in the phrase "the two circumcised parts" is the circumcised genitals of the man and the woman respectively. Male circumcision (khatn) is the removal of the skin of the head or glans of the penis. Female circumcision (khifad, khafd) is the removal of a tiny piece of skin in the uppermost part of her genitals which resembles the crest of a rooster, and between it and the entrance of the penis there is a thin membrane" ("Fath al-Bari" 1:520).

It is obligatory for women neither in the Maliki school nor in the Hanbali school. Both schools consider it merely recommended. See Al-Qayrawani's "Risala" p. 161, 305; and "al- Mughni" 1:85. Ibn al-`Arabi al-Maliki says in "Tuhfat al- ahwadhi" (1:167): "_Khifad_ for the woman is like _khitan_ for the man and consists in removing a piece of skin the size of a rooster's crest in the uppermost region of the genitals on top of the urine passage."

Sayyid Sabiq, "Fiqh al-Sunna" 3 vols. (Cairo: Dar al-Bayan li al-Turath, 1408/1987) 1:36: "(The first of the features of natural religion [fitra] is) circumcision. It is the removal of the skin which covers the head or glans of the penis... As for the woman, it consists in removing the upper part of the genitals The opinion of the large majority of scholars is that it is obligatory, Shawkani said: "Nothing has been transmitted with regard to its timing nor its obligatoriness.""


The recent "Mu`jam lughat al-fuqara'" (Arabic-English Dictionary of Legal Terminology" by Dr. Muhammad Rawwas Qal`aji and Dr. Hamid Sadiq Qunaybi (Beirut: Dar al-Nafa'is, 1985) p. 198 provides another illustration of the misinformation being propagated on this topic. The Arabic definition for "khafd al- mar'at" (women's circumcision) is correctly given as: "Removal of the uppermost skin at the top of her genitals" but the English word given is: "Clitoridectomy," i.e. ablation of the clitoris which is excision or mutilation, not circumcision. Finally, many or most of those opposed to female circumcision routinely refer to it as mutilation or excision. And Allah knows best.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

@H_S" I was offering an aside with the American example.

I think both sides need to offer their arguments with hard proof and I think people are doing so. But motivations can indeed affect and blinker arguments to the point of selecting the data to offer. I'm interested in the truth, whether I like it or not and whether or not it fits with the EDL direction. Truth and integrity go together, both of which need to be vital parts of EDL.

I think this thread is bringing up a lot of good points.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
studio
No Avatar
banned
Homo Sapien
Apr 10 2010, 05:39 PM
If Studio had his way, EDL would not be drawing attention to these forms of genital mutilation. I'm curious as to Studio's motivation.
solely on the grounds that its being put forward as an Islamic problem, where as a majority of web sites I have found have shown it to cross the religious divide but be a cultural point action.

I see no point in pointing out that a predominantly Islamic country has 1000's of years of cultural FGM and therefore FGM is an Islamic belief. It does not hold water...

I am not standing up for and GM, male or female, but I don't want the EDL to be laughed at by clinging to such tenuous links.

No, I have not yet attended a demo, if that makes me unable to comment then so be it. But if you feel that your argument will not stagnate without alternate view points I think you might find yourself mistaken.

There is a very weak link between Mo and FGM but as such it is not a mandatory action, unlike MGM. There have been fatwas(?) issued against the practice, and the only Islamic nations opposing any cessation of this practise also have a cultural history if it pre-dating the rise of Islam within their borders.

Cary on making your claims, dismiss the 'mythical middle England' if it pleases you. But tonight when I am in the pub being confronted by people as a supporter of the EDL, I will be able to hold my own. They will be mainly musicians and intelectuals, and as I did earlier I will be able to prove my non racist, non fascistic opposition to Islam.

I was talking about this thread earlier to a couple of guys, they still think trying to pin this on Islam is stupid but they accept my points on the EDL ethos and its stance. I am sorry that I am not very eloquent, but the written word is a struggle for me. Maybe some day we will be able to meet over a drink and I could make my stance clearer.



http://www.wluml.org/node/5889
http://fgmnetwork.org/news/show_news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1164978388&archive=&template=
Edited by studio, Apr 30 2010, 07:33 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

studio
Apr 10 2010, 08:52 PM
Homo Sapien
Apr 10 2010, 05:39 PM
If Studio had his way, EDL would not be drawing attention to these forms of genital mutilation. I'm curious as to Studio's motivation.
solely on the grounds that its being put forward as an Islamic problem, where as a majority of web sites I have found have shown it to cross the religious divide but be a cultural point action.

I see no point in pointing out that a predominantly Islamic country has 1000's of years of cultural FGM and therefore FGM is an Islamic belief. It does not hold water...

I am not standing up for and GM, male or female, but I don't want the EDL to be laughed at by clinging to such tenuous links.

No, I have not yet attended a demo, if that makes me unable to comment then so be it. But if you feel that your argument will not stagnate without alternate view points I think you might find yourself mistaken.

There is a very weak link between Mo and FGM but as such it is not a mandatory action, unlike MGM. There have been fatwas(?) issued against the practice, and the only Islamic nations opposing any cessation of this practise also have a cultural history if it pre-dating the rise of Islam within their borders.

Cary on making your claims, dismiss the 'mythical middle England' if it pleases you. But tonight when I am in the pub being confronted by people as a supporter of the EDL, I will be able to hold my own. They will be mainly musicians and intelectuals, and as I did earlier I will be able to prove my non racist, non fascistic opposition to Islam.

I was talking about this thread earlier to a couple of guys, they still think trying to pin this on Islam is stupid but they accept my points on the EDL ethos and its stance. I am sorry that I am not very eloquent, but the written word is a struggle for me. Maybe some day we will be able to meet over a drink and I could make my stance clearer.

iain

http://www.wluml.org/node/5889
http://fgmnetwork.org/news/show_news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1164978388&archive=&template=
I'm no moderator here. Knuckles has made it clear that dissent is welcome. I really have no idea what you're trying to establish here.

Peter has argued very persuasively that there are good reasons for saying that FGM is required/expected within islam. I look forward to you and your mates in the pub showing that their knowledge of islam is greater than that of Peter. Once you've attempted that, then perhaps we can all come to a conclusion about whether or not these forms of genital mutilation should become part of the EDL platform. Maybe then we can move on to deciding that male circumcision is a form of child abuse.

I've given you my arguments as to why "middle england" is a fiction. You have offered no rebuttal other than assertion. Despite the media's misrepresentation of EDL, the numbers on the demos keeps growing. In the last month we've seen 500, then 2000, then 4000. Let's allow the BNP, UKIP and the other parties to worry about the vague and inchoate concept of "middle england". It's hard enough to even make sense of concepts like "working-class" and "middle-class".

This URL you give (http://fgmnetwork.org/news/show_news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1164978388&archive=&template=) says "The general perception here [Egypt] among Muslims is that female circumcision is required under Islamic law. But the scholars argued that this does not explain why female genital mutilation, or FGM, is also so widespread among Egypt's Christian community."

Both pages you refer to claim there are fatwas against FGM. Muslims issue thousands of fatwas daily, often contradicting each other (e.g. fatwas calling for terrorism, fatwas against terrorism). The sources Peter is citing will hold far greater weight amongst muslims than a couple of optimistic websites. I'm fairly sure that these are hopeful attempts to try and get this practice to stop. But unless there are investigations, protests, punishments, etc. I doubt it is going to stop until the practitioners and parents are shamed from doing it.

You do not appear to have answered my question as to whether there was any real action by muslim groups to stop FGM occurring in the UK. I take it from that there is none, and that the websites you linked to are simply making statements. Statements which do not accord with the information Peter has provided. The question is not what they are saying, but what they are doing

Earlier you were very categorical and dismissive of the contribution of kaimana1:
Quote:
 
We can stand here and use play ground politics to convince each other of islams barbarism, but with middle England you have to make sure your argument stands up to at least a couple of pages of google search. that's what they will do.


If you think EDL is going to be winning converts among people who've spent a couple of minutes doing a google search, then you're naive. There is little that EDL can do to make sure that complex arguments like Peter's or Kaimana1's are going to appear on the first page of a google search.

I'm curious to see if you are going to be as categorical and dismissive of Peter's evidence.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Lisalashesxxx
Member Avatar
Lisalashesxxx
I posted the original link on my fb, absolutely disgusted. And would you believe that some lad I knew from school came on and was DEFENDING them? It was bizarre, he wouldn't have it that this goes on, every FACT I gave him he just disregarded.

I couldn't believe it :ermm:
It's Lisa. Not Leeeeeza
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

It was specifically outlawed in the UK in 2003 in the Female Genital Mutilation Act.

By 2008 there had not been one prosecution, despite the authorities belief that it is happening to 20,000 girls each year.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/women_shealth/3355495/Ruth-Rendell-speaks-out-against-female-genital-mutilation.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-505796/The-unspeakable-practice-female-circumcision-thats-destroying-young-womens-lives-Britain.html

Who cares about human rights when you have multi-culturalism?
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

studio
Apr 10 2010, 08:52 PM
"Now that doctors in Mauritania unanimously say this practice threatens health, it is therefore clear that Islam is against it," he added."

http://www.wluml.org/node/5889
Once again It is NOT clear - for the very reasons I have posted above. What part of 'It is NOT clear' is so difficult to comprehend. The fiqh jury is still out on the matter, otherwise it would be easy to just make it a crime in the 29 OIC States where FGM is 'traditional practice'. If, as you claim, it has no basis in sunnah, then why have they been unable to do this so far?
Quote Post Goto Top
 
studio
No Avatar
banned
Homo Sapien
Apr 10 2010, 09:28 PM
There is little that EDL can do to make sure that complex arguments like Peter's or Kaimana1's are going to appear on the first page of a google search.

off for a days recording, but just out of interest, why is this a complex case? so far you have failed to make a direct link between the promotion of FGM and Islam. Untill you can make that link it remains cultural.

FGM is not wide spread among Muslim countries, but restrained to countries where its history far out dates Islam. The 20,000 at risk in this country are a small % of the Muslim girls, If this is an Islamic problem surely that % would be much much higher? Does this 20,000 transcend all the varying Muslim nations now at residence in the UK, or only certain ones? Are any Christian children also at risk from this within the UK?

I cant support a tenuous at best call to demonise, still you fail to make the strong link between the two...

You have to prove that to follow Islam it is MANDATORY to perform FGM, and therefore widespread within the UK. Until then people will see that it is only certain communities that up hold these practises, and that is due to, according to some scholars, 5000 years of practise.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
« Previous Topic · EDL Chat · Next Topic »
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2

Feliz Navidad (Gold) created by Sarah & Delirium of the ZNR