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| Are we being infected with Poltitical correctness | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 9 2009, 06:27 PM (494 Views) | |
| Deleted User | Nov 9 2009, 06:27 PM Post #1 |
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Is it just me or has/is political correctness crept/creeping into this forum.Its this PC s**t that has got our country into the state it is now and some people(mods included,infact some of the worst offenders are mods) seem intent of bringing it here.I really would like to know what the rank n file edl lads think of this?Am i being parra or is there truth in my post?I would also like to add its seems a completeley different state of affairs on the protests though ie no political correctness out on the streets with the edl lads,just seems to be this forum. |
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| charlie | Nov 9 2009, 06:32 PM Post #2 |
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Please state by what you mean by political correctness . Link some post you think its being used in . Gives us a better idea what you mean |
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A WAY OUT FOR YOU NAZI SCUM THATS INFILTRATED THE EDL http://www.stormfront.org/ http://www.uaf.org.uk/ http://www.islam4uk.com/ | |
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| Jethro | Nov 9 2009, 06:36 PM Post #3 |
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no its not just you. |
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| Deleted User | Nov 9 2009, 06:36 PM Post #4 |
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I agree with the OP. I think what he means if somebody says something like 'muslims are the problem with this country and the moderates need to speak out more' A mod or someone else will always reply with something like 'not all muslims are bad, you can't say that, we're not racist etc etc " Most people can tell whether a post is racist or not. We don't need to be told by a moderator whether it is or isn't. It's akin to banning the story of the 3 little pigs on case we offend muslims. |
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| Deleted User | Nov 9 2009, 06:44 PM Post #5 |
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It not just the mods though,there seems to be a group of mods/forum users that seem obsessed with political correctness.ps,and before anyone asks im not naming names,just take a look round the forum you can see what im on about.I JUST WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF IM IN A MAJORITY OF ONE OR IF OTHERS AGREE WITH ME? |
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| Old War Dog | Nov 9 2009, 06:47 PM Post #6 |
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OldWarDog
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I'm having to edit your post, it's pretty darned racist and offensive to boot: I agree with the OP. I think what he means if somebody says something like ' A mod or someone else will always reply with something like 'not all muslims are bad, you can't say that, we're not racist etc etc " Most people can tell whether a post is racist or not. We don't need to be told by a moderator whether it is or isn't. It's akin to banning the story of the 3 little |
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| Deleted User | Nov 9 2009, 06:49 PM Post #7 |
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I know what DFW is saying, but i don't think we're being politically correct. We just have to be carefull what we are saying due to everything we say getting taken out of context and ending up on some left wing website, they scan through this forum looking for anything they can to use against us. |
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| Old War Dog | Nov 9 2009, 06:49 PM Post #8 |
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Hope you understand my little edits there, we can't be seen to portray this type of inconsiderate language here. We're NOT racists! |
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| Old War Dog | Nov 9 2009, 06:51 PM Post #9 |
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Should people who feel that there is a problem with the WHOLE of Islam not be allowed to express this view and debate it without being moderated and/or banned? I see a lot of "deleted users" on this forum who don't seem racist to me. |
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| Deleted User | Nov 9 2009, 06:53 PM Post #10 |
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i DISSAGREE,I KNOW WE MUST BE CARFUL BUT THINGS seem to being going ott ie political correctness.Maybe im wrong,which is why i done this post to see what others thought. |
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| Deleted User | Nov 9 2009, 06:55 PM Post #11 |
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I agree with DFW but only because hes my mate and hes threatened me lol |
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| Old War Dog | Nov 9 2009, 06:55 PM Post #12 |
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I think you're right. I think people should be allowed to express their opinions, so long as they're not givin' it "white power" s**t then I don't see the problem having a rational discussion about Islam as a religion and a threat to our society as a whole. |
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| Deleted User | Nov 9 2009, 06:55 PM Post #13 |
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This is one of the things im on about,one of many and NO im not racists and have many none white friends,anyone who knows me can confirm this. |
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| Deleted User | Nov 9 2009, 06:56 PM Post #14 |
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Indeed, some muslims are good! |
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| charlie | Nov 9 2009, 06:58 PM Post #15 |
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So its political correctness to say there moderate muslims ? its just like saying all E.D.L are football hooligans |
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A WAY OUT FOR YOU NAZI SCUM THATS INFILTRATED THE EDL http://www.stormfront.org/ http://www.uaf.org.uk/ http://www.islam4uk.com/ | |
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| Old War Dog | Nov 9 2009, 06:59 PM Post #16 |
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Yes indeed, some are good but how many and how do we tell which are good and which are just Fort Hood style sleeper cells in the waiting? To me, that's the question that's avoided in this forum and yet it's the most important question about Islam and Islamic integration in the UK. |
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| shiva | Nov 9 2009, 06:59 PM Post #17 |
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Do you mean infected or infiltrated
Edited by shiva, Nov 9 2009, 07:05 PM.
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| To oppose islam is not racism, it is a sign of a healthy mind | |
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| Deleted User | Nov 9 2009, 07:01 PM Post #18 |
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Now your just being daft and you know it!Off course im not saying that,by the replys your the only one who thinks i meant that? |
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| FreedomFry | Nov 9 2009, 07:02 PM Post #19 |
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Kafir
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I hope that if anyone has a problem with the way I've been modding the forum he would just tell me. Of course I don't know if you're talking about me. I've had to edit out a few posts that included racial slurs, but I hope we all agree that that's the right thing to do. My opinion on this issue in general is that I want to make sure we're on the same page when we're talking about political correctness. Political correctness is an insidious doctrine that seeks to censor the truth or modify tradition because it might offend people and makes the most sensitive person the arbiter of what can and cannot be said. It seeks to make all statements conform to the current fads of leftist doctrine. Editing posts that are abusive or commenting when people diverge from EDL's official position is not political correctness. So which one are we talking about? |
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| yonner | Nov 9 2009, 07:02 PM Post #20 |
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I think the EDL has a broad base of support that is why we have seen the astonishing rise of the EDL in such a short period of time, i have noticed that some posters have leanings to the left and some have leanings to the right. I do not think it is political correctness just different views from a wide range of people which can only benefit the cause . |
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ALL STAND TOGETHER STAND WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WHEN WE ALL STAND TOGETHER WE CAN NEVER BE TORN APART , STRONG WINDS ARE BLOWING SWEEPING FROM THE EAST, DRAGONS TEETH ARE SOWING FROM FAR OFF COMES THE BEAST. si du pro nobis qui contra nos | |
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| Old War Dog | Nov 9 2009, 07:03 PM Post #21 |
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Are you talking about the EDL fourms/groups or our entire political and demographic society? |
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| Deleted User | Nov 9 2009, 07:04 PM Post #22 |
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I would say your prob one of the fairest mods on here. |
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| shiva | Nov 9 2009, 07:08 PM Post #23 |
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Are you talking about the EDL fourms/groups |
| To oppose islam is not racism, it is a sign of a healthy mind | |
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| Deleted User | Nov 9 2009, 07:10 PM Post #24 |
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This forum. |
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| Old War Dog | Nov 9 2009, 07:14 PM Post #25 |
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I think there's a lot of politically correct nonsense on here, definitely. People should be allowed to voice their opinions about Islam. There are a lot of people who feel Islam just simply doesn't fit in here in the UK. I mean Islam as a whole, not just the radical side of the religion. If the mods here feel they need to moderate such talk then that's fine. It's their forum and their rules. However, people should be allowed to discuss and debate this freely. That after all is how concensus and agreements are met. |
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| shiva | Nov 9 2009, 07:18 PM Post #26 |
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Yes this forum There is a group of islamic apologists that disrupt any serious debate that concerns moslem and the koran even to the point of one moderator being very abusive. |
| To oppose islam is not racism, it is a sign of a healthy mind | |
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| Deleted User | Nov 9 2009, 07:18 PM Post #27 |
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I agree,off course im not meaning blatent racism though. |
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| Flower Power | Nov 9 2009, 07:18 PM Post #28 |
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Why has Shiva received 4 warnings? I have not seen a single post of Shiva’s that is either rude or offensive.
Edited by Flower Power, Nov 9 2009, 07:21 PM.
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Those who will not reason are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves. Lord Byron (1788-1824) | |
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| Deleted User | Nov 9 2009, 07:20 PM Post #29 |
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Very much so but its not just about islam and muslims though but other things that are "polticaly incorrect" .
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| charlie | Nov 9 2009, 07:20 PM Post #30 |
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Greet what do you mean Islam dose not fit in this country has a whole. And how would you eradicate what you see has a problem |
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A WAY OUT FOR YOU NAZI SCUM THATS INFILTRATED THE EDL http://www.stormfront.org/ http://www.uaf.org.uk/ http://www.islam4uk.com/ | |
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| Old War Dog | Nov 9 2009, 07:23 PM Post #31 |
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No, exactly. No one wants bogotry and racism here, that just simplt isn't tolerable. There seems to be confusion as to what's racist and what's just someone trying to have a discussion. For example, if I say Islam is an intolerable religion and it should be examined and scrutinised with a view to complete reform. Is that racist? If I say the entire Islamic religion and scripture is hateful, vengeful and disgusting, is that Islamophobic? If I say Mohammed was a paedophile and a murdering piece of s**t and that everyone who thinks he's a good role model should be questioned at length, is that sectarianism? I don't think stating facts is in any way bigotted. If someone says something and backs that up with facts then it's a debate. It's not racism or phobia. |
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| Deleted User | Nov 9 2009, 07:23 PM Post #32 |
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What 'other things' are you referring to DFW? |
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| charlie | Nov 9 2009, 07:26 PM Post #33 |
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Dont you see sivia has a agenda and uses this forum for it . They admit themselves they go on other forums with the same agenda . There not anti-Islamic extremist but ant-Islam all together . Cant you tell by them calling people Islamic apologetics |
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A WAY OUT FOR YOU NAZI SCUM THATS INFILTRATED THE EDL http://www.stormfront.org/ http://www.uaf.org.uk/ http://www.islam4uk.com/ | |
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| Flower Power | Nov 9 2009, 07:26 PM Post #34 |
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Islam comes with a ready-made system of laws and customs that Muslims consider superior to the laws and customs of the West, and they are ready to replace the one with the other. Their system denies freedom of speech and conscience, as well as equality of rights for women and non-Muslims. This is the reason that Islam is not compatible. |
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Those who will not reason are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves. Lord Byron (1788-1824) | |
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| Old War Dog | Nov 9 2009, 07:27 PM Post #35 |
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I don't know how to erradicate the problem I'm afraid. I fear it's enrooted too deeply to 'erradicate'. I'd like to discuss ways of dealing with the problem but let's first identify the problem. I can assure you, Anjem Choudray is a good starting place. I suggest we start with this cretin. I suggest we identify his whereabouts and organise a demo right outside his home and ask him to explain himself. That's a good starting point. As for the deep rooted mess that Islam as a whole is causing this country, that's a far more difficult topic which we'd need to discuss at length. I know you think that Islam has a place here in the UK. I don't though. I think, like many others, that when Islam rises in strength it will cause us more and more unrest and eventually will lead to civil war. |
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| FreedomFry | Nov 9 2009, 07:33 PM Post #36 |
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political correctness has no place on here and neither does the stifling of debate as long as people understand where the edl's official position on the matter is if it has one. However I don't really know what you're referring to other than re the "all islam is bad" stuff. In regards to that I think tbh it's largely a matter of semantics. If, like the extremists, we accept that only people who follow the koran to the letter are muslims, then obviously there are no moderate muslims. However if we accept everyone who says they are muslim as muslim, then of course there are moderate and nominal muslims. Shiva appears to believe the former, while accepting that many people normally considered muslims, including his parter, are great people, just not actually muslims. i think it is vital that as an organisation we say that we can't say what islam is, other than to accept what british muslims say and do. just as we define other religions not by what their texts say but by what their followers do. this is how we can say judaism is peaceful, because the torah sure isn't. If british muslims are going to be peaceful, moderate, and loyal, than we must accept that in britain, islam is peaceful, moderate, and loyal. If they decide that extremism will dominate, then we have no choice but to accept that islam fulfills all our worst fears and say it has no place here. but it is up to them to define it, not us. we must define islam as "what muslims believe" not define muslims as "those who believe in islam" if that makes any sense |
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| shiva | Nov 9 2009, 07:33 PM Post #37 |
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Did you read my response to you in the other thread about the situation in Indonesia, if so does it make sense why I have such views about moderate moslems |
| To oppose islam is not racism, it is a sign of a healthy mind | |
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| Flower Power | Nov 9 2009, 07:35 PM Post #38 |
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No, I don’t see that at all. I see that Shiva has more knowledge and had more experiences with Islam than most on this forum. How many on here have actually read the Qur’an? I bet Shiva has. How many on this forum have had close interaction with the Muslim community? Shiva has. How many on this forum have knowledge of Islamic jurisprudence, Islamic history and the life of Muhammad? Not many, but Shiva certainly has some knowledge of these things. |
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Those who will not reason are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves. Lord Byron (1788-1824) | |
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| charlie | Nov 9 2009, 07:36 PM Post #39 |
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I understand your point about fear of civil war that's one of the reasons I come on here . But the questions still remains what do you do about the majority of muslims that just want to go about there daily life . In countrys where they try and suppress Christians the christian community are very strong. You cannot eradicate a belief has strong has religion |
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A WAY OUT FOR YOU NAZI SCUM THATS INFILTRATED THE EDL http://www.stormfront.org/ http://www.uaf.org.uk/ http://www.islam4uk.com/ | |
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| FreedomFry | Nov 9 2009, 07:37 PM Post #40 |
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@ me? |
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| Deleted User | Nov 9 2009, 07:41 PM Post #41 |
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I personaly feel islam has no place in Britain,everything has to be their way,their religion must come first and must not be mocked in cartoons or any form,they issue death threats to people who voice concern or expose there evil pedo ways,well I say if your not happy in Britain with our laws and way of life the get the fuk out off MY country to a place where the things you want are allready in place,ffs even christmas is toned down or phased out in some parts of Britain,well I'm fukin sick off it |
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| charlie | Nov 9 2009, 07:41 PM Post #42 |
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Yes siliva I did and did you read my reply about the pastor going to indonesia dont think you replied to it. |
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A WAY OUT FOR YOU NAZI SCUM THATS INFILTRATED THE EDL http://www.stormfront.org/ http://www.uaf.org.uk/ http://www.islam4uk.com/ | |
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| charlie | Nov 9 2009, 07:45 PM Post #43 |
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So lets get this right are fight is not with Islamic extremist but is Islam in general is that what your all saying if that is the case what the U.A.F and the papers say are right ? Prove them wrong when they say you are against all muslims
Edited by charlie, Nov 9 2009, 07:45 PM.
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A WAY OUT FOR YOU NAZI SCUM THATS INFILTRATED THE EDL http://www.stormfront.org/ http://www.uaf.org.uk/ http://www.islam4uk.com/ | |
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| Flower Power | Nov 9 2009, 07:47 PM Post #44 |
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Islam strives for hegemony, seeking not to co-exist but to make all the world the realm of the Muslims (dar al-Islam) while regarding those parts not under its dominion as the realm of war (dar al-Harb). Britain is dar al-Harb. |
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Those who will not reason are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves. Lord Byron (1788-1824) | |
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| charlie | Nov 9 2009, 07:49 PM Post #45 |
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so we get rid of them because its not compatible . Dose that not make us the same has them .Dont they have a right to practice there faith in a peaceful manner . Edited by T4A, Nov 9 2009, 08:07 PM.
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A WAY OUT FOR YOU NAZI SCUM THATS INFILTRATED THE EDL http://www.stormfront.org/ http://www.uaf.org.uk/ http://www.islam4uk.com/ | |
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| Deleted User | Nov 9 2009, 07:49 PM Post #46 |
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And thats you right to believe this,I bet if you had just posted this say in another thread the pc brigade would have been on you like a pack of erm erm erm german shepheards,like the ones the pigs use lol. |
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| shiva | Nov 9 2009, 07:50 PM Post #47 |
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No Charlie, but it would not hurt to take a look Edited by T4A, Nov 9 2009, 08:08 PM.
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| To oppose islam is not racism, it is a sign of a healthy mind | |
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| Deleted User | Nov 9 2009, 07:51 PM Post #48 |
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We are against extreme islam charlie,but we all see extreme differently.like the issues with young girls ect I find this extreme and disgusting and a hanging offence but we know who thinks its ok mohammeds mob |
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| Old War Dog | Nov 9 2009, 07:51 PM Post #49 |
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We can all have our little say. We do all have our own opinions. I agree fully that Islam should be judged on it's actions and not just on it's scriptures. Actions speak louder than words but that's one of my concerns. I've had it to my back teeth with Islamic actions and re-actions. Haven't we had enough to realise what Islam really stands for? Can't you judge Islam already for yourself? Anyway, as FlowerPower points out above, some are more authoritative on the subject of Islam than others. That's why I like to draw lessons from those who are authorities on the subject. For me that's not politicians and it's not members of a public forum. I believe religious professors know more than all of us put together. Let me therefore paste, "The Agenda of Islam - A War between Civilisations" by Professor Moshe Sharon who teaches Islamic History at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem. I feel she knows Islam very well: There is no Fundamental Islam. "Fundamentalism" is a word that came from the heart of the Christian religion. It means faith that goes by the word of the Bible. Fundamental Christianity, or going with the Bible, does not mean going around and killing people. There is no fundamental Islam. There is only Islam full stop. The question is how the Koran is interpreted. All of a sudden we see that the greatest interpreters of Islam are politicians in the western world. They know better than all the speakers in the mosques, all those who deliver terrible sermons against anything that is either Christian or Jewish. These western politicians know that there is good Islam and bad Islam. They know even how to differentiate between the two, except that none of them know how to read a word of Arabic. The Language of Islam You see, so much is covered by politically correct language that, in fact, the truth has been lost. For example, when we speak about Islam in the west, we try to use our own language and terminology. We speak about Islam in terms of democracy and fundamentalism, in terms of parliamentarism and all kinds of terms, which we take from our own dictionary. One of my professors and one of the greatest orientalists in the world says that doing this is like a cricket reporter describing a cricket game in baseball terms. We cannot use for one culture or civilization the language of another. For Islam, you've got to use the language of Islam. Driving Principles of Islam Let me explain the principles that are driving the religion of Islam. Of course, every Moslem has to acknowledge the fact that there is only one God. But it's not enough to say that there is only one God. A Moslem has to acknowledge the fact that there is one God and Mohammed is his prophet. These are the fundamentals of the religion that without them, one cannot be a Moslem. But beyond that, Islam is a civilization. It is a religion that gave first and foremost a wide and unique legal system that engulfs the individual, society and nations with rules of behaviour. If you are Moslem, you have to behave according to the rules of Islam which are set down in the Koran and which are very different than the teachings of the Bible. The Bible Let me explain the difference. The Bible is the creation of the spirit of a nation over a very, very long period, if we talk from the point of view of the scholar, and let me remain scholarly. But there is one thing that is important in the Bible. It leads to salvation. It leads to salvation in two ways. In Judaism, it leads to national salvation - not just a nation that wants to have a state, but a nation that wants to serve God. That's the idea behind the Hebrew text of the Bible. The New Testament that took the Hebrew Bible moves us toward personal salvation. So we have got these two kinds of salvation, which, from time to time, meet each other. But the key word is salvation. Personal salvation means that each individual is looked after by God, Himself, who leads a person through His word to salvation. This is the idea in the Bible, whether we are talking about the Old or the New Testament. All of the laws in the Bible, even to the minutest ones, are, in fact directed toward this fact of salvation. Secondly, there is another point in the Bible, which is highly important. This is the idea that man was created in the image of God. Therefore, you don't just walk around and obliterate the image of God. Many people, of course, used Biblical rules and turned them upside down. History has seen a lot of massacres in the name of God and in the name of Jesus. But as religions, both Judaism and Christianity in their fundamentals speak about honouring the image of God and the hope of salvation. These are the two basic fundamentals. The Essence of Islam Now let's move to the essence of Islam. Islam was born with the idea that it should rule the world. Let's look, then, at the difference between these three religions. Judaism speaks about national salvation - namely that at the end of the story, when the world becomes a better place, Israel will be in its own land, ruled by its own king and serving God. Christianity speaks about the idea that every single person in the world can be saved from his sins, while Islam speaks about ruling the world. I can quote here in Arabic, but there is no point in quoting Arabic, so let me quote a verse in English. "Allah sent Mohammed with the true religion so that it should rule over all the religions." The idea, then, is not that the whole world would become a Moslem world at this time, but that the whole world would be subdued under the rule of Islam. When the Islamic empire was established in 634 AD, within seven years - 640 - the core of the empire was created. The rules that were taken from the Koran and from the tradition that was ascribed to the prophet Mohammed, were translated into a real legal system. Jews and Christians could live under Islam provided they paid poll tax and accepted Islamic superiority. Of course, they had to be humiliated. And Jews and Christians living under Islam are humiliated to this very day. Mohammed Held That All the Biblical Prophets Were Moslems Mohammed did accept the existence of all the Biblical prophets before him. However he also said that all these prophets were Moslems. Abraham was a Moslem. In fact, Adam himself was the first Moslem. Isaac and Jacob and David and Solomon and Moses and Jesus were all Moslems, and all of them had writings similar to the Koran. Therefore, world history is Islamic history because all the heroes of history were Moslems. Furthermore, Moslems accept the fact that each of these prophets brought with him some kind of a revelation. Moses, brought the Taurat, which is the Torah, and Jesus brought the Ingeel, which is the Evangelion or Gospel - namely the New Testament. The Bible versus the Koran Why then is the Bible not similar to the Koran? Mohammed explains that the Jews and Christians forged their books. Had they not been changed and forged, they would have been identical to the Koran. But because Christians and Jews do have some truth, Islam concedes that they cannot be completely destroyed by war [for now]. Nevertheless, the laws a very clear - Jews and Christians have no rights whatsoever to independent existence. They can live under Islamic rule provided they keep to the rules that Islam promulgates for them. Islamic Rule and Jihad What happens if Jews and Christians don't want to live under the rules of Islam? Then Islam has to fight them and this fighting is called Jihad. Jihad means war against those people who don't want to accept the Islamic superior rule. That's jihad. They may be Jews; they may be Christians; they may be Polytheists. But since we don't have too many Polytheists left, at least not in the Middle East - their war is against the Jews and Christians. A few days ago, I received a pamphlet that was distributed in the world by bin Laden. He calls for jihad against America as the leader of the Christian world, not because America is the supporter of Israel, but because Americans are desecrating Arabia with their filthy feet. There are Americans in Arabia were no Christians should be. In this pamphlet there is not a single word about Israel. Only that Americans are desecrating the home of the prophet. Two Houses The Koran sees the world as divided into two - one part which has come under Islamic rule and one part which is supposed to come under Islamic rule in the future. There is a division of the world which is very clear. Every single person who starts studying Islam knows it. The world is described as Dar al-Islam (the house of Islam) - that's the place where Islam rules - and the other part which is called Dar al-Harb - the house of war. Not the "house of non-Muslims," but the "house of war." It is this house of war which as to be, at the end of time, conquered. The world will continue to be in the house of war until it comes under Islamic rule. This is the norm. Why? Because Allah says it's so in the Koran. God has sent Mohammed with the true religion in order that the truth will overcome all other religions. Islamic Law Within the Islamic vision of this world, there are rules that govern the lives of the Moslems themselves, and these rules are very strict. In fundamentals, there are no differences between schools of law. However, there are four streams of factions within Islam with differences between them concerning the minutiae of the laws. All over the Islamic world, countries have favored one or another of these schools of laws. The strictest school of law is called Hanbali, mainly coming out of Saudi Arabia. There are no games there, no playing around with the meanings of words. If the Koran speaks about war, then it's war. There are various perspectives in Islam with different interpretations over the centuries. There were good people that were very enlightened in Islam that tried to understand things differently. They even brought traditions from the mouth of the prophet that women and children should not be killed in war. These more liberal streams do exist, but there is one thing that is very important for us to remember. The Hanbali school of law is extremely strict, and today this is the school that is behind most of the terrorist powers. Even if we talk about the existence of other schools of Islamic law, when we're talking about fighting against the Jews, or fighting against the Christian world led by America, it is the Hanbali school of law that is being followed. Islam and Territory This civilization created one very important, fundamental rule about territory. Any territory that comes under Islamic rule cannot be de-Islamized. Even if at one time or another, the [non-Moslem] enemy takes over the territory that was under Islamic rule, it is considered to be perpetually Islamic. This is why whenever you hear about the Arab/Israeli conflict, you hear - territory, territory, territory. There are other aspects to the conflict, but territory is highly important. The Christian civilization has not only been seen as a religious opponent, but as a dam stopping Islam from achieving its final goal for which it was created. Islam was created to be the army of God, the army of Allah. Every single Moslem is a soldier in this army. Every single Moslem that dies in fighting for the spread of Islam is a shaheed (martyr) no matter how he dies, because - and this is very important - this is an eternal word between the two civilizations. It's not a war that stops. This was is there because it was created by Allah. Islam must be the ruler. This is a war that will not end. Islam and Peace Peace in Islam can exist only within the Islamic world; peace can only be between Moslem and Moslem. With the non-Moslem world or non-Moslem opponents, there can be only one solution - a cease fire until Moslems can gain more power. It is an eternal war until the end of days. Peace can only come if the Islamic side wins. The two civilizations can only have periods of cease-fires. And this idea of cease-fire is based on a very important historical precedent, which, incidentally, Yasser Arafat referred to when he spoke in Johannesburg after he signed the Oslo agreement with Israel. Let me remind you that the document speaks of peace - you wouldn't believe that you are reading! You would think that you were reading some science fiction piece. I mean when you read it, you can't believe that this was signed by Israelis who are actually acquainted with Islamic policies and civilization. A few weeks after the Oslo agreement was signed, Arafat went to Johannesburg, and in a mosque there he made a speech in which he apologized, saying, "Do you think I signed something with the Jews which is contrary to the rules of Islam?" (I have obtained a copy of Arafat's recorded speech so I heard it from his own mouth.) Arafat continued, "That's not so. I'm doing exactly what the prophet Mohammed did." Whatever the prophet is supposed have done becomes a precedent. What Arafat was saying was, "Remember the story of Hodaybiya." The prophet had made an agreement there with the tribe of Kuraish for 10 years. But then he trained 10,000 soldiers and within two years marched on their city of Mecca. He, of course, found some kind of pretext. Thus, in Islamic jurisdiction, it became a legal precedent which states that you are only allowed to make peace for a maximum of 10 years. Secondly, at the first instance that you are able, you must renew the jihad [thus breaking the "peace" agreement]. In Israel, it has taken over 50 years in this country for our people to understand that they cannot speak about [permanent] peace with Moslems. It will take another 50 years for the western world to understand that they have got a state of war with the Islamic civilization that is virile and strong. This should be understood: When we talk about war and peace, we are not talking in Belgium, French, English, or German terms. We are talking about war and peace in Islamic terms. Cease-fire as a Tactical Choice What makes Islam accept cease-fire? Only one thing - when the enemy is too strong. It is a tactical choice. Sometimes, he may have to agree to a cease-fire in the most humiliating conditions. It's allowed because Mohammed accepted a cease-fire under humiliating conditions. That's what Arafat said to them in Johannesburg. When western policy makers hear these things, they answer, "What are you talking about? You are in the Middle Ages. You don't understand the mechanisms of politics." Which mechanisms of politics? There are no mechanisms of politics where power is. And I want to tell you one thing - we haven't seen the end of it, because the minute a radical Moslem power has atomic, chemical or biological weapons, they will use it. I have no doubt about that. Now, since we face war and we know that we cannot get more than an impermanent cease-fire, one has to ask himself what is the major component of an Israeli/Arab cease-fire. It is that the Islamic side is weak and your side is strong. The relations between Israel and the Arab world in the last 50 years since the establishment of our State has been based only on this idea, the deterrent power. Wherever You Have Islam, You Will Have War The reason that we have what we have in Yugoslavia and other places is because Islam succeeded into entering these countries. Wherever you have Islam, you will have war. It grows out of the attitude of Islamic civilization. What are the poor people in the Philippines being killed for? What's happening between Pakistan and India? Islamic Infiltration Furthermore, there is another fact that must be remembered. The Islamic world has not only the attitude of open war, but there's also war by infiltration. One of the things which the western world is not paying enough attention to is the tremendous growth of Islamic power in the western world. What happened in America and the Twin Towers is not something that came from the outside. And if America doesn't wake up, one day the Americans will find themselves in a chemical war and most likely in an atomic war - inside the U.S. End of Days It is highly important to understand how a civilization sees the end of days. In Christianity and in Judaism, we know exactly what is the vision of the end of days. In Judaism, it is going to be as in Isaiah - peace between nations, not just one nation, but between all nations. People will not have any more need for weapons and nature will be changed - a beautiful end of days and the kingdom of God on earth. Christianity goes as far as Revelation to see a day that Satan himself is obliterated. There are no more powers of evil. That's the vision. I'm speaking now as a historian. I try to understand how Islam sees the end of days. In the end of days, Islam sees a world that is totally Moslem, completely Moslem under the rule of Islam. Complete and final victory. Christians will not exist, because according to many Islamic traditions, the Moslems who are in hell will have to be replaced by somebody and they'll be replaced by the Christians. The Jews will no longer exist, because before the coming of the end of days, there is going to be a war against the Jews where all Jews should be killed. I'm quoting now from the heart of Islamic tradition, from the books that are read by every child in school. They Jews will all be killed. They'll be running away and they'll be hiding behind trees and rocks, and on that day Allah will give mouths to the rocks and trees and they will say, "Oh Moslem come here, there is a Jew behind me, kill him." Without this, the end of days cannot come. This is a fundamental of Islam. Is There a Possibility to End This Dance of War? The question which we in Israel are asking ourselves is what will happen to our country? Is there a possibility to end this dance of war? The answer is, "No. Not in the foreseeable future." What we can do is reach a situation where for a few years we may have relative quiet. But for Islam, the establishment of the state of Israel was a reverse of Islamic history. First, Islamic territory was taken away from Islam by Jews. You know by now that this can never be accepted, not even one meter. So everyone who thinks Tel Aviv is safe is making a grave mistake. Territory, which at one time was dominated by Islamic rule, now has become non-Moslem. Non-Moslems are independent of Islamic rule; Jews have created their own independent state. It is anathema. And (this is the worse) Israel, a non-Moslem state, is ruling over Moslems. It is unthinkable that non-Moslems should rule over Moslems. I believe that Western civilization should hold together and support each other. Whether this will happen or not, I don't know. Israel finds itself on the front lines of this war. It needs the help of its sister civilization. It needs the help of America and Europe. It needs the help of the Christian world. One thing I am sure about, this help can be given by individual Christians who see this as the road to salvation. Professor Moshe Sharon teaches Islamic History at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem. This article appeared on the Betar UK website. The professor is a well known authority on Islam. I believe what she has to say. |
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