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This has occured to me, why do Muslims in this country care about Afghanistan/Iraq wars.
Topic Started: Nov 4 2009, 04:19 PM (138 Views)
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Why, yes why do they? Well obviously, it has to be because of Islam and that's it.

See what I don't get and this occurred to me a few days ago, is that muslims in our country are primarily of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin. Yes, their is a large number of Indian muslims as well especially in areas like Blackburn and other parts of Lancashire and Yorkshire and yes there are also lots of somalis here, arabs, iranians and iraqis and afghans, especially in parts of west london like Southall for example.

However, most muslims are Pakistani and Bangladeshi and there's so many British born Pakistanis here from for example in Birmingham, Bradford and East London, who go to Pakistan and train their with militants and either come back here or stay over there and join the Taliban or Al Qaeda.

Why are they so angry though at our involvement in the war? Think about it, they're not Iraqis and they're not afghans, so why do they give a crap. If White, black or asian people around the world are dying as a result of a pointless war and they happen to be Christian (and i'm sure there are many Christian countries on the back-end of deadly wars at the moment), it doesn't disgust us and make us feel like "they are killing our brothers, we must join al qaeda and blow up their public transport" or whatever. I'm just rather puzzled come to think of it, that Pakistanis in this country are so angry about innocent people in Afghanistan and Iraq dying, when this ain't even in their damn home country.

This is the whole danger and stupidity of Islam, they are all but one, and we Christians, or at least me, I don't think like this.

I just can't understand why, most muslims in this country who aren't Iraqi or Afghan are so upset about what's happening in countries that aren't even their home country but happen to have people of the same faith to them innocently dying, what's the big deal.

It's the same with Gaza, yes Israel and Palestine have been at each other's necks for 1000's of years but you get millions of muslims again in this country who aren't actually Palestinian, getting angry at Jews for innocently bombing them etc when they're both as bad as each other.

For example, if Israel was Christian and I kept hearing about Palestinians bombing Israel (because of the religious hatred), I wouldn't particularly care and feel like I have to go and join my Christian brothers and make war against muslims.

Does anyone have any views on this? I'd sure like to hear them if so.
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AgeofEnlightenment
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Kafir
Well it's the same with christians unfortunately. Although not many members here are Egyptian, I've heard people complain about the state of coptics in Egypt (which is appauling, but just one example).

Likewise I'm sure that there are buddhists who aren't Thai but are disgusted at the treatment of buddhist monks by muslims in south Thailand.

Etc...



"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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Paul81272
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Easy, they don’t give a f**k about country or creed, just Islam and their Muslim brothers. The reason they don’t travel to Afghanistan/Somalia or other country’s with an Islamic struggle is because they are f**king cowards, if they felt as strongly as they claimed they would, sell their Lexus, pack their crap, travel to the s**thole of their choice, buy an AK47 and get stuck in, but the reality is that they are happy as sand boys here in the UK, enjoying their freedom to bite the hand that feeds and generally do f**k all with their lives but irritate.

The reason we don’t give a f**k is because we are not backward, hillbilly, cousin f**kers, hypnotised by Islam and its bearded hate preachers telling us it’s our duty.
Edited by Paul81272, Nov 4 2009, 04:52 PM.
Islam is not a religion it’s a f**king cult, I am still waiting for David Koresh to appear!!
This is my opinion and does not reflect the opinion of the EDL.
The EDL is ONLY opposed to Islamic Extremism
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ignominius
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AoE Christians rarely take up arms as Christians - like muslims as jihadist or muhajideen. Those that do , do so not on biblical teachings as you full well know but against it. Nearly all Christians tackle the problem of Christian persecution by various non-violent means. This includes lobbying governments/the UN/Civil liberties agencies.
There are other things like prayer meetings, sending money and goods to affected areas. You will never find Christians attending training camps to go to war or to go blow up the persecutors of brothers and sisters in faith. True many Christians sign up with armed forces but they are not doing as the Muslims do. There is a huge, huge, huge difference in attitude.

Muslims on the other hand own no allegiance except to the Ummah. An attack on one is seen as an attack on all and that calls for retaliation. Because they see it as war against them all. That is why the do what they do. They only react to attacks on Muslims when it's the Kuffar who are seen to be attacking. If it's other Muslims then they shrug their shoulders and get on with life, hence the atrocities in Darfour where Christian AND Muslims are being raped, killed and driven from their homes. No outcry over that because it's Muslim on Muslim. If it was Christian on Muslim then expect a huge outrage.
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AgeofEnlightenment
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No training camps? So jesus camp doesn't count per say?

The difference today is that islamism and islamic extremism is making itself known as the current threat to our freedoms. Christianity at some points of history was doing the same, but today that has changed.

So in effect we agree.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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ignominius
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There are no training camps for terrrorism by Christians. Full Stop End of. I don't know what these Jesus camps are - most likely places where kids go for the summer in the states for fun and games and bible stories. Hardly the same as learning how to make IED's and suicide vests, and how to strip and clean a Kalasnikov.
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AgeofEnlightenment
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You should actually watch jesus camp, because as it's current founder said she wanted to have christians die for a cause the same way kids do in Palestine and the middle-east.

Then there's the westboro baptist church and the KKK.

Ignominius you are just going to have to accept that no religion is infallible or innocent, that every religion has had conflict and to say one is or has always been a threat while ignoring the violence of another is moral equivalence.
Edited by AgeofEnlightenment, Nov 4 2009, 05:10 PM.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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Spot on Paul mate, agree with 100% of what you said. Also, I understand what your saying AgeofEnlightenment and I know Christians, or in fact all religions have done some pretty horrible things in the past, however it seems that we've evolved and we preach Christianity, firstly not as something that means more than heritage or every day life to us unlike muslims and secondly, we have learnt how to act and what's acceptable or not acceptable in modern day life. Muslims have not, they are more proud to be muslim than British firstly and religion is everything to a muslim, it sucks them in leaving them susceptible to some of the ghastly and hideous views of the Koran and certain teachings of the prophets and Islam.

Christianity, i'm sure has many faults but at least today it seems to have evolved. I know when I say this as well, muslims would counter me by saying, "yes and what about the mass murder of innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan?" Yes what about it? Was it anything to do with Christianity, I don't think so, it was to do with 2 men's absolutely ridiculous decisions despite the vast majority of people in those men's country's opposing their decisions.

I am a protestant Christian and I used to go to Church and i've read the bible and to me it was a book of peace and love. Sure there might have been a few more violent parts of it but from what I've read from quotes from the Quran, it's a lot more violent than the bible and teaches intolerance towards any of the "disbelievers" or non-muslims. God said "love your neighbour as yourself." So treat people how you'd like to be treated.

Unfortunately, the muslim world worship a faith that will never fit in to today's western societies and that's why they have so many problems here and also in their own countries. Islam is nothing but intolerance.
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ignominius
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okay will do AoE. Always willing to learn and be corrected when wrong!
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AgeofEnlightenment
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ignominius
Nov 4 2009, 06:12 PM
okay will do AoE. Always willing to learn and be corrected when wrong!
It's ok man, it's nothing personal and I think the valid point that has been raised by you and others is that islamic extremism is the greatest threat today to the rights and freedoms of all people living in any free democracy.

It is the same sentiment shared by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Geert Wilders, Robert Spencer, Pat Condell, Christopher Hitchens, and just about everyone here in the EDL.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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ignominius
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Haven't got a problem with it. We don't always see eye to eye and we have good, if somewhat at times heated debates, but when I'm wrong I admit to being wrong. Can't argue with that can we? Besides which the point of our discussion is not whether Christians per se are bombers and killers but whether ordinary muslims are doing enough to shout down their extremist brothers/sisters.
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Good Knight
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You can find much fault in christians past and many christians present. But as for Christianity/Christ and His teachings; as Pontius Pilate the Roman governor of Judaea said 'I find NO fault in Him.
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Irishcomrad
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AgeofEnlightenment
Nov 4 2009, 05:09 PM
You should actually watch jesus camp, because as it's current founder said she wanted to have christians die for a cause the same way kids do in Palestine and the middle-east.

Then there's the westboro baptist church and the KKK.

Ignominius you are just going to have to accept that no religion is infallible or innocent, that every religion has had conflict and to say one is or has always been a threat while ignoring the violence of another is moral equivalence.
Your just trying and failing to put the two extremist religions together to get two perfect halves, you think its a bit like pulling two kids apart from fighting in the playground, well you cant and you wont, and you trying to do so is a disgrace to memory of the mudered by their jihadi nutjobs on our busses and trains.

Ignomious is not stupid he knows like the rest of us that some religions afr far more deadlier than others and for you to even try to stop him for expressing this fact is a joke.
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AgeofEnlightenment
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Err... pulling two kids apart who are violent in a playground is a bad thing? Clearly mate lol.

Ahh yes, you are painting a lovely straw man position based on scholarly arguments like assumptions and ad hominems as usual; yes telling him that comparing religions as being one is peaceful/infallible while another is evil is moral equivalence. Try actually thinking first before posting, since I am raising an obvious point about how this kind of reasoning is fallacious. Try arguing this to a scientist, historian, or scholar and they will mirror my exact thoughts on this issue, that or laugh at you.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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charlie
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Why guys this might come has a shock to you had a bible study last Friday Atnd it was in judges 4v21 were it talks about jael herbers wife picking up a tent peg and hammering it though sisera skill while he was a sleep.So I'm fully trained tent peg assassin .
Edited by charlie, Nov 4 2009, 07:10 PM.
A WAY OUT FOR YOU NAZI SCUM THATS INFILTRATED THE EDL
http://www.stormfront.org/
http://www.uaf.org.uk/
http://www.islam4uk.com/
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AgeofEnlightenment
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lmao, I should tell some of my christian mates that one.

Keep in mind, and I have stated this before that I don't consider all christians, all muslims, or all people of <insert religion> to necessarily agree with the violent teachings of their scripture.

My argument is that if you say muslims are all like this, or that to be a true muslim you have to follow the quran to the letter then you may as well accept the same standard for every other religion.

Most people here though would accept people from all faiths who are genuinely peaceful and can take the good from their religions. That is a reasonable position and thus an attitude I think most people here should advocate. Consistency is your friend and so is wisdom :)
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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Irishcomrad
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AgeofEnlightenment
Nov 4 2009, 07:02 PM
Err... pulling two kids apart who are violent in a playground is a bad thing? Clearly mate lol.

Ahh yes, you are painting a lovely straw man position based on scholarly arguments like assumptions and ad hominems as usual; yes telling him that comparing religions as being one is peaceful/infallible while another is evil is moral equivalence. Try actually thinking first before posting, since I am raising an obvious point about how this kind of reasoning is fallacious. Try arguing this to a scientist, historian, or scholar and they will mirror my exact thoughts on this issue, that or laugh at you.
try telling the ordinary man on the street that christian extremism and islamic extremism are both the same and see how you get laughed at, swore at or maybe even worste.

I think you believe you have a higher moral standpoint because you have some nice big words to bandy about, but you will never pull the wool over my eyes, Christian extremism bad, Islamic extremism very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very bad
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Irishcomrad
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AgeofEnlightenment
Nov 4 2009, 07:17 PM
lmao, I should tell some of my christian mates that one.

Keep in mind, and I have stated this before that I don't consider all christians, all muslims, or all people of <insert religion> to necessarily agree with the violent teachings of their scripture.

My argument is that if you say muslims are all like this, or that to be a true muslim you have to follow the quran to the letter then you may as well accept the same standard for every other religion.

Most people here though would accept people from all faiths who are genuinely peaceful and can take the good from their religions. That is a reasonable position and thus an attitude I think most people here should advocate. Consistency is your friend and so is wisdom :)
The problem we have is this:

The amount of muslims who are extreme and take the words of the quoran as pure words from the mouth of god and become manipulated by evil immams is huge and growing all over the west leading to bloodshed and carnage in very very large numbers.

The amount of christians who take the words of the bible as the pure words of god and become manipulated by their leaders is very small and lead to very tiny amounts of bloodshed.

No matter how you try to suger coat this problem, there it is and there she blows
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AgeofEnlightenment
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Well isn't that exactly the point Irishcomrad? I would trust the writings, speeches, and publications of a respected scholar than just anyone on the street. So would a lot of people, and given the fact that 'maybe even worse' could happen to someon for simply expressing a view contrary to their own just supports my argument.

Both forms of extremism can be incredibly evil, and saying otherwise is just an argument for moral equivalence yet again. The kind you are saying that is very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very bad (islamic extremism) is only that way because of what is happening today, yet try saying that in the 1920s and 30s characters like Franco, Mussolini, Adolf Hitler and the clerical fascists of Austria, Rome, and Croatia. This doesn't even include how America had captains of industry supporting nazism like Henry Ford, who published the book "The International Jew" another propaganda book about how jews were infiltrating our societies and corrupting our good, moral, upstanding christian values. Not only that but the KKK also helped popularise nazism in America, and also itself was hunting down black people because they considered them inferior descendants of 'satan and Eve.'

So christian extremism in this case was very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very bad in this particular period of history, no different to the islamic extremism of today.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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charlie
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why do people always try and say Hitler was a christian when they try and point out bad Christians Hitler was not a christian its like saying I'm a beef burger because I go in MC Donalads get this knowson out of your head

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:


Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:


National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:


Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:


The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:


The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:


Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:


Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)


14th December, 1941, midday:


Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:


There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:


It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278
Edited by charlie, Nov 4 2009, 07:48 PM.
A WAY OUT FOR YOU NAZI SCUM THATS INFILTRATED THE EDL
http://www.stormfront.org/
http://www.uaf.org.uk/
http://www.islam4uk.com/
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AgeofEnlightenment
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charlie
Nov 4 2009, 07:42 PM
why do people always try and say Hitler was a christian when they try and point out bad Christians Hitler was not a christian its like saying I'm a beef burger because I go in MC Donalads get this knowson out of your head
Well likewise the same argument can be said about muslims, or extremists who represent the islamic faith and commit terrorist attacks. My reference to Hitler is not a comment towards someone like you charlie, a person who would accept that not every muslim or person of any faith is evil just because certain evil people represent it; my argument is to those who make purely pro-christian or other religon arguments while stating that islam is evil, or that it's followers who commit acts in the name of it are representing the religion whole heartedly.

An interesting quote by Hitchens was by saying that Hitler was a <insert religion or non-religion> is like saying that since Hitler has a moustache; all genocidal maniacs only do so because of moustaches.

To the surprise of many people here who I've argued with, I actually agree with that statement.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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nemisis123456
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charlie
Nov 4 2009, 07:09 PM
Why guys this might come has a shock to you had a bible study last Friday Atnd it was in judges 4v21 were it talks about jael herbers wife picking up a tent peg and hammering it though sisera skill while he was a sleep.So I'm fully trained tent peg assassin .
Charlie mate you have me in stitches a times. :D

Tent peg assassin LOL!

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"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
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AgeofEnlightenment
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Yes Irishcomrad, as I have said before whether as a counter-argument or in agreement to something you have said; there are islamic extremists in large numbers who are a threat to our society, using scripture to justify committing attrocities against non-muslims or people of their own faith who disagree with them, and yes it is a very serious problem in modern times; you will agree with me that is why the EDL exists.

Just saying though that moral equivalence between religions will not help. We can point out the plight of christians, hindus, sikhs, buddhists, and even other muslims under the tyrrany of sharia, but entering into a scripture debate or saying one religion is peaceful while another is purely evil is not factual, it's just moral equivalence and will not help our cause.

We just need to focus on pressuring the government to remove the islamic extremism creeping into society. I apologise if I gave off the wrong impression, or that I made you feel like I was censoring you (Irishcomrad gets this particular apology) and not giving you a voice. I value all contributions of all different religions, political views (left, centre or right). I don't hate christians, nor am I pro-islamic or a muslim/UAF/leftist myself, funny thing is whenever I used to debate islamic extremists on youtube they used to call me a jew, christian, Israel lobbyist, zionist, fascist, right winger, etc...

Just the irony that people feel the need to label others immediately of a position they deeply hate themselves.
Edited by AgeofEnlightenment, Nov 4 2009, 08:00 PM.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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