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| EDL Racist? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 2 2009, 11:38 PM (550 Views) | |
| DJP | Nov 2 2009, 11:38 PM Post #1 |
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I am not a 'member' of any political party, although I'm categorically anti BNP. Living in Leeds I drove past the EDL rally on October 31st with no knowledge of what was happening. My interest has brought me here. I have never heard of the EDL before and I'm skeptical of any party which seems 'far right', or infact 'far' anything. That said I agree with a lot of what the EDL seems to stand for. In particular: we invite people of all races and faiths to join us in this campaign to awaken our sleeping Government to face up to and deal with the Jihad in our country So what makes the EDL different to the BNP, a party that organisations such as UAF claim they are linked to? Cheers Edited by DJP, Nov 2 2009, 11:44 PM.
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| Deleted User | Nov 2 2009, 11:43 PM Post #2 |
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Deleted User
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EDL is different to BNP in every aspect pretty much. Too many difference to know where to start. Just look around and figure it out for yourself. |
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| DJP | Nov 2 2009, 11:50 PM Post #3 |
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Granted - and indeed I am looking around for myself. But with the current BNP media circus I have been on the BNP website - and it is easy to see how people could be drawn in and fooled by their wording and presentation, unless you are familiar with them already. I am unfamiliar with EDL and the best way to gauge what a party is about is not to read it's own words, it's to ask it's members their views and opinions DJP |
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| expat | Nov 2 2009, 11:51 PM Post #4 |
I post a lot of links
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the only facists are the uaf stopping free speach supporting islamic facists full stop no platform to the taliban |
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| DJP | Nov 2 2009, 11:52 PM Post #5 |
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correction - organisation - not 'party' |
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| DJP | Nov 2 2009, 11:54 PM Post #6 |
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expat: "the only facists are the uaf" the BNP are clearly fascists |
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| expat | Nov 2 2009, 11:56 PM Post #7 |
I post a lot of links
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who cares about the bnp my concern is islamic facists far more dangerous |
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| DJP | Nov 2 2009, 11:57 PM Post #8 |
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expat - I'm not asking about the behaviour of extreme islamics. I'm asking, in the opinion of EDL members, what makes the EDL views different to that of the BNP?
Edited by DJP, Nov 2 2009, 11:57 PM.
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| ignominius | Nov 2 2009, 11:59 PM Post #9 |
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Infidel
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The EDL are a single-cause protest group that is multi-racial, multi-religious and that has members from all parts of the political spectrum from the left to the right. We dislike , hate even the Nazis, neo-nazis and other similar right-wing racist groups. We also hate the extreme left wing who prefer to support the islamofascist extreme muslims rather than support us simply because we are patriotic. I don't think I've missed anything out. Except to say we are not BNP supporters but we do have people in our ranks who would vote BNP because they feel there is no alternative. |
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| expat | Nov 3 2009, 12:00 AM Post #10 |
I post a lot of links
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dont give a feck for the bnp whats it got to do with us not being pollitical but concerned about islamic terror ufa and uk taliban are in the same bed and its not a few islamists either there are thousands in uk |
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| BRITISH | Nov 3 2009, 12:02 AM Post #11 |
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"BOLTON"
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DJP ??? Where the f**k do you get where a political party from ? are you another tosser from uaf who thinks you can get people to incite they love the bnp , where a group of people like you KNOW ----- WE DONT GIVE A HOOT ABOUT POLITICS OR YOUR COLOUR , OR UR RELIGION IF ITS MODERATE !!!! WHERE SICK OF EXTREME MUSLIMS TAKING THE PISS IN THIS LAND WE CALL ENGLAND its nothing to do with politics so where the f**k do you get that where a political party i for one if wanted to support bnp i would , like any person on this land can do if they want its call freedom , but people like you who are anti bnp think no ones allowed to have a say WHY DOES BNP ALWAYS COME INTO IT NO ONE GIVES A f**k Edited by BRITISH, Nov 3 2009, 12:07 AM.
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| YOUR EITHER WITH US OR AGAINST US | |
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| expat | Nov 3 2009, 12:05 AM Post #12 |
I post a lot of links
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djp are you proud of our troops and country |
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| DJP | Nov 3 2009, 12:07 AM Post #13 |
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cheers ignominius, thats more like the stuff i want to hear |
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| charlie | Nov 3 2009, 12:09 AM Post #14 |
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Infidel
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we are a protest group that has no desire to become a political party are aim is to see the eradication of the Islamic extremist threat to to U.K we have mixed race people at our protest for examples there was Jews Asian blacks and mix race at Leeds .Hope you seen some have a look in the Leeds section and you see pictures to back this up. There a young mix race lad that is the leader of the youth of this group We openly condemn any rascist remarks on this forum and people have been banned for illicit racist remarks . We dont encourage any racist activity at our protest this is thrown upon The B.N.P have distance themselves from us and hard core Nazi want to kill us check stromfront out for that |
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A WAY OUT FOR YOU NAZI SCUM THATS INFILTRATED THE EDL http://www.stormfront.org/ http://www.uaf.org.uk/ http://www.islam4uk.com/ | |
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| BRITISH | Nov 3 2009, 12:10 AM Post #15 |
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"BOLTON"
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CAN see i get angry when people ask the same god damn s**t question every single day your gauranteed some 1 will ask the exact same tomorrow , like hes comin for thoughts on convicts to right in his little uaf book , |
| YOUR EITHER WITH US OR AGAINST US | |
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| expat | Nov 3 2009, 12:10 AM Post #16 |
I post a lot of links
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i know where your coming from now djp and its people like you who would make me consider voting for the bnp |
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| DJP | Nov 3 2009, 12:17 AM Post #17 |
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f**k me BRITISH, calm yourself. you'll see i corrected myself when i said 'party'. and no im not from the UAF nor am i trying to stir up anything - although it seems to me it doesn't take much for you to react. i am someone who is showing an interest in the EDL and simply wanting to know more about it. NUMEROUS articles, from NUMEROUS sources, claim the EDL are a fascist organisation, linked with the BNP etc etc etc.. I am asking you directly, WITH NO JUDGEMENT, the opinions of the EDL itself. thank you for comments from ignominius and charlie - these are alot more useful for me to gauge an opinion |
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| ignominius | Nov 3 2009, 12:18 AM Post #18 |
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Infidel
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don't be too hasty to judge. He hasn't said anything untoward , just asked a civil question. What differentiates us from the BNP. I think that the BNP are just not interested in the people of this country only in race and power. We are not political, we are not in it for power , just trying to make our country safe from the extremists and free from sharia law. We support our armed forces, who have been asked to do a job that they didn't ask for. If anyone should be vilified it should be the government that lied to send them there not our boys in uniform (and girls too!). |
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| expat | Nov 3 2009, 12:24 AM Post #19 |
I post a lot of links
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why isit every time you mention edl gos**tes have to repeat ufa and media lies. we are black and white and edl im sick of mentioing the bnp in the same sentance one country one cause to defend against islamic take over |
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| nemisis123456 | Nov 3 2009, 12:24 AM Post #20 |
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Infidel
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Well how about the fact that the EDL is an "inclusive" organisation, this trancends race, religion, creed, colour etc etc Thought that would be obvious? Another one is that the EDL arnt a political party, we are an "inclusive" social movement who will pursue an agenda of confronting islamic extremism. Simple
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![]() AFDL Supporting True EDL "The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time." --- Richard Nixon | |
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| Flower Power | Nov 3 2009, 12:25 AM Post #21 |
Patriot
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For one thing, the EDL is not a political party, and the organisations only platform is to fight ‘radical Islam’ and ‘Sharia Law’. The EDL is open to people of all ethnic and religious groups, and to people of all political persuasions and occupations. Although the UAF would have you believe otherwise, the EDL represent a cross section of society, and its members include University lecturers, Engineers and fire-fighters, amongst a multitude of other occupations. http://s1.zetaboards.com/EDL_The_Forum/topic/2476862/1/ I can only speak for myself, but I believe the real fascists are the ones who are not standing up for Western liberties – freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, freedom of expression, equality before the law, including women’s rights and the rights of non-Muslims – which are increasingly threatened by a growing deference to the laws of Islam. |
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Those who will not reason are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves. Lord Byron (1788-1824) | |
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| expat | Nov 3 2009, 12:27 AM Post #22 |
I post a lot of links
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bloody well said old chap |
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| ignominius | Nov 3 2009, 12:29 AM Post #23 |
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Infidel
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Lets calm down peeps. We are not racists, we have people of all ethnicities amongst ouir ranks. Everyone is welcome in the EDL no matter what their religion or no religion, colour, creed, or politics. All we stand for is for extremist Islamists to be weeded out, to stop Sharia law being imposed and to defend our culture and way of life from creeping jihad. (Such as the imposition of Halal meat in fast food restaruants even though the majority of us are not Muslim, imposition of Sharia banking which are all part of Sharia Law.) We are not a political party and we do not seek power. We are a social movement in that we are just ordinary people coming together for the same reason as mentioned above. We have no links with government or any political party. |
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| silenthunter | Nov 3 2009, 12:29 AM Post #24 |
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lol i can see your frustration british . you are like me mate i get so wound up and pissed off when some one calles the edl bnp ! it f**ks me rite off that i as an ordinery white working class midle aged man should be conciderd to be i skin head thug ! and all because i love my country ! do some idiots think im so shallow that i dont like a man cus of the colour of his skin ? im 47 years old i have a nice family , i support the edl 100% and the reson i do that is so that i can give my grandchildren the rite to be british . god bless the edl its our last chance ! see you in nottingham . |
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| Stockport-Craig | Nov 3 2009, 12:33 AM Post #25 |
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Finally somebody who wants to find out for himself/herself about the EDL instead of just being a sheep and following all these studenty types and branding us racist. Firstly, the EDL have no problem whatsoever with the majority of asians, or any other race for that matter. We don't want an 'all white' Country. The only people we are against are islamic extremists whose main aim is to attempt to take the lives of innocent people for having beliefs that differ to their own etc. What the EDL are doing may seem like a pointless thing, and you could well think that it isn't going to make a difference, but i believe it is. I wasn't at either of the Birmingham protests, or the one in Leeds due to illness, but i did attend the Manchester one and i was quite shocked when i saw the numbers there. It was also quite pleasing to see members of the public who weren't involved in the march standing there applauding. The UAF make these accusations because they see doing something in the well being of the Country, and all those that live in it as racist/facist. The only way they can prevent more people from attending these marches is to claim that the EDL are racist. However, people are starting to see for themselves that we are not. This helped? |
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| expat | Nov 3 2009, 12:33 AM Post #26 |
I post a lot of links
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we wont go away you know |
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| Stockport-Craig | Nov 3 2009, 12:43 AM Post #27 |
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Nobody on here is saying we should, expat. |
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| expat | Nov 3 2009, 12:45 AM Post #28 |
I post a lot of links
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was ment for the uaf and media |
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| DJP | Nov 3 2009, 12:53 AM Post #29 |
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A country of people from all walks of life (colour, creed, political preference and religion) WITHOUT the threat of extremists is all any people should tolerate. I am sick of extremists in this country, including islamic extremists, spreading evil and giving good and decent muslims a bad name - as well as a reason for the likes of the BNP to win votes. Britain has been and should always be proud of it's multi-'cultural' background. Thanks to the likes of stockport steve, ignominius and flower power for your intelligent insightful answers to my question. I will be checking back on the movements of the EDL cheers |
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| Flower Power | Nov 3 2009, 01:03 AM Post #30 |
Patriot
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DJP, I applaud the fact that you have taken the time to visit the EDL forum instead of taking in the ‘far-right’ and ‘fascist’ umbrella generalisations that the British media and UAF have allotted us. I hadn’t heard of the EDL before mid September, so like you, I joined the forum, and I found that most of the members were just as passionate about defending our Western liberties as I am. Most people are sick and tired of the British government’s appeasements to radical Islam, and many are pleased that at last there might be light at the end of the tunnel as we finally have an outlet to express our anger with like-minded people. Hopefully if the EDL have enough support, then possibly we can reverse the trend of accommodating radicalism. If you would like to learn more about the threat of Jihad, radical Islam and Sharia Law, and you cannot be bothered to read the Islamic texts, then I can suggest Robert Spencers’ Jihad Watch, Andrew Bostom’s blog and the Religion of Peace website. http://www.jihadwatch.org/ http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ |
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Those who will not reason are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves. Lord Byron (1788-1824) | |
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| DJP | Nov 3 2009, 01:15 AM Post #31 |
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appreciated flower power, will do |
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| Stockport-Craig | Nov 3 2009, 01:21 AM Post #32 |
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Stockport-Steve? ![]() Glad to of been able to help DJP. |
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| DJP | Nov 3 2009, 01:28 AM Post #33 |
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ha, soz craig ;-) |
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| acabac | Nov 3 2009, 01:36 AM Post #34 |
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My first post, and no I'm not a troll. I often ask what is the point of the EDL, where is it going? Bigger demos? Or is it just going to fizzle out. |
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| Stockport-Craig | Nov 3 2009, 02:07 AM Post #35 |
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Well a lot people thought it would fizzle out almost as quick as it began, but thankfully it doesn't look as though it is. There are more and more people attending, and more and more people now supporting the EDL in what we are trying to do. Hopefully numbers will continue to grow and the government will then be forced to take notice and toughen up on all this crap by Choudary etc who want Britain to become an Islamic run nation. Sentences for crimes related to terrorism need to be increased dramatically, and also something needs to be done about these preachers who are brainwashing young and innocent muslims in to becoming something which they are not, and that is evil! |
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| Deleted User | Nov 3 2009, 02:08 AM Post #36 |
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Deleted User
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This is the point... Old statistics because it's an old video re-uploaded: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQrRDrFSjDE Geert Wilder's (Leader of the second largest Party in Holland): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-akx0O7sUfA Long video explaining the beginning of the spread of Jihad in the USA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osZ5TvhiTZQ Extremists in Government threaten Lord Pearson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY9AtWYUAAI EDL Leed's speech: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmOb-fCU0Hg ... And yes. Bigger Demo's. |
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| internet | Nov 3 2009, 02:35 AM Post #37 |
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Ive only read the first page here, i think DJP is a far left fascist trying to link the EDL to the BNP. The EDL are anti-BNP in the core sense that they're multi-racial, anyone with only half a brain can work that out. |
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| Stockport-Craig | Nov 3 2009, 02:44 AM Post #38 |
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I think you're wrong, internet. DJP wanted to see for himself what the EDL stood for and wanted to achieve and how we are so different to the BNP. He has left knowing me are not Nazi's/racists etc. I wish there were more people who did what he's done and come and found out for themself. |
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| seppuku | Nov 3 2009, 05:21 AM Post #39 |
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DJP seems to be asking authentic questions as an outsider - one of the reasons I joined this forum was to learn myself whether or not EDL practiced what they preached via lurking and seeing what the members are like - though obviously, not directly - I, like DJP are trying to learn something about EDL because I have an interest in what it preaches. You can understand the skepticism, because what the BNP say and what the BNP stand for are 2 completely different things. And it was seem the same applies for UAF. It's difficult to trust what groups are saying these days. In trying to find out more about EDL, I've watched a few of their videos and protests and it would seem that the likes of UAF have it wrong. Just flick through the posts of people on here and it seems when there's something about Muslims against Sharia or Muslims for secular law, there's rejoice. But there's no racist remarks, nor is hate promoted - at least I've not seen any on the threads I've read. It is possible that there are bigots in this group, but from what I understand, bigotry isn't tolerated. I think people may mistake this as a racist group or link them to the BNP because it's got a lot of proud Brits waving the flag, but it seems the UK is the only country where patriotism gets mixed up with racism and that is perhaps on the hands of the BNP and National Front, but I support anyone who tries to take the flag back from the racists in this country. On the UAF - I supported them for a little while, but I actually question their organisation now, because they don't appear to actually be 'Anti-fascist', just anti-BNP and anything that appears 'racist' in their eyes, but only out of shear ignorance...or at least that's my impression from country EDL protests. UAF have also been accounted for violent protest...but isn't violent protest the tactics of the BNP? Add that UAF have proved themselves to not be in support of free speech when trying to silence Nick Griffin by trying to have him not speak on Question Time - they have succeeded in making the man a victim...which isn't good as he can get the sympathy vote or the 'screw you UAF' vote. For anybody who's against fascism should know that defending your civil liberties is the best way to keep fascism from gaining control - partly why Nazis took over in Germany is that after the Reichstag, nobody had an uproar that their civil liberties were being broken and that the Weimar constitution was essentially thrown out of the window. If people said, "hello, free speech? Freedom of expression? Freedom of religion?" the Nazis wouldn't have gained power...or at least that's how I view it. The UAF tried to break freedom of expression and we ought to have a problem with that. Likewise, we ought to have a problem with the BNP. Also, as for 'far-right', I'm in the middle, so I hold some right wing views, but also some left wing ones. Basically, I'm an abomination. I just believe the Sharia law is dangerous and that extreme Islam is a threat.
Edited by seppuku, Nov 3 2009, 05:28 AM.
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| internet | Nov 3 2009, 05:18 PM Post #40 |
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Why stop at the uaf and BNP, why not say also that all the other political parties say one thing and mean another? No, the BNP don't do violence, its bad enough for them to be sqeaky clean and still get slanted with associated violence, tho that would definately be the case of some of their members years ago. The violent parties are Labour and Conservatives, they advocate violence when illegally invading Iraq and Afghanistan. They also advocate violence by letting criminals out of prison early, as do the Lib Dems. The uaf have shown their violent stance many times. |
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| Deleted User | Nov 3 2009, 05:50 PM Post #41 |
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What you should be doing is joining us and fight for your rights, by joining us you will make our voice louder. Don't sit on the fence, If you want rid of violent extremist and to stop sharia law, how can you not join us, we are not anything like the media and others say, so why would you not join us. arthur. |
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| ignominius | Nov 3 2009, 06:07 PM Post #42 |
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Infidel
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Good post Seppeku, I hope that you don't take your name too seriously though! You make some good points. One thing, and I'm no supporter of the BNP, but I believe the BNP changed its policy towards racial confrontation sometime ago and they haven't overtly or publicly been involved in any violence in recent years. I know that there were in the past along with the NF. I hope that after having successfully lurked here you can see that the BNP is not linked in anyway to the EDL and that we are an inclusive group. (Although I think you did admit to that so...redundant statement alert!). It would be good if you would join us to fight the extremists that threaten our good country. |
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| Deleted User | Nov 3 2009, 07:26 PM Post #43 |
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Welcome and a good question to open with. The point of the EDL is to raise the profile of and force into the political arena the issues of Islamic extremism in the UK and the creeping introduction of Sharia law. I would suggest that it is going quite well (Alan Johnson's recent mea culpa over immigration is no coincidence in my opinion) but the core issues are yet to be tackled head on in the political arena. That is the goal. The demo's are increasing in size everytime they occur and there is little reason to suggest they will not continue to do so. In light of the anti EDL propaganda that has been pedalled by politicians and the controlled media this growing support is testament to the strength of feeling that exists over this issue. Therefore the idea that the EDL may 'fizzle out' seems unlikely for that reason alone. Time will tell but the winds of change are blowing and those who can influence policy would be well advised to heed our calls - if they have any interest in preventing something altogether more ugly from happening further down the road. |
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| seppuku | Nov 4 2009, 07:11 AM Post #44 |
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I can see that EDL and the BNP are quite different. Though you are right that the BNP stopped being violent, but I am not convinced by their 'clean' status. It seems all too much of saying what people want to hear.
They were just 2 examples - the Labour and Conservative parties are just as guilty. Politicians are near impossible to trust - though I find when on-the-spot Nigel Firage is quite strong and answers quite straight and is direct with his answers and makes his stance clear, whilst other politicians, including Griffin, sweat and stutter when backed into a corner in trying to come-up with a bogus answer. |
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| islamisbad | Nov 4 2009, 07:46 AM Post #45 |
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in hindsight was enoch powell a racist? would he have joined the EDL? |
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| AgeofEnlightenment | Nov 4 2009, 07:59 AM Post #46 |
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Kafir
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Yet again people here are jumping all over DJP for asking legitimate questions. Are people here incapable of just stating that the BNP does not support us, that they boot out members who attempt to join our group, or do we need to scream and rant and rave and imitate the behaviour of the UAF and Revleft? Try acting civil for once please or I will be issuing out warnings. In regards to the DJP; the only similarity we* share with the BNP is fighting islamic extremism, but the BNP extends this further by saying islam in general is full of evil muslims, or that islam cannot be a peaceful religion like any other. You can clearly see stuff like this on BBC Question Time. The BNP's racism has never stopped, Griffy likes to paint himself as a sobered up individual who no longer rants about holocaust denial in magazines like The Rune and Spearhead, but he's really still a racist and an apologist especially when you look at his immigration policy which will extend to paying people who have immigrated to this country to leave. He also makes reference to preserving Anglo-Saxon English culture (which is fine), but makes no mention of allowing other cultures into British society. I hope this helps ![]() Edit - Freudian slip/typo Edited by AgeofEnlightenment, Nov 4 2009, 08:00 AM.
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"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche "All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot. "People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin | |
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| Paul81272 | Nov 4 2009, 09:34 AM Post #47 |
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DJP has legitimate questions, as a complete outsider you may walk past a protest and assume either a football team is in town or it is a far right march, but at least he has taken the time to investigate. Don’t read too much into my EDL signature, I don’t like any religion and assume most people have a sense of humour. I think along with the majority of the EDL membership I am opposed to extremist Islamists in this country, preaching hate and stirring up problems and issues amongst our Muslim Youth. If it is the BNP that DJP is concerned about then I would suggest the BNP’s best recruiting tool is the crazy bearded hate preachers because they are feeding straight into the hands of the far right movement. I think we all know that the UAF are largely, white, middle class, suburb dwellers and wanna be anarchists with a poor sense of dress. I am sure if they took a closer look into radical Islam they would be less inclined to wave their banners and shout their silly slogans. Regarding the BNP, what a lot of people fail to remember is that the BNP was voted for by millions of UK citizens and regardless of the BNP political persuasion they have a right to speak, Freedom of Speech, another thing that Shariah Law would do away with and before you question my motives I would not vote for the BNP if life depended on it as my Indian wife and my mixed race kids would probably have something to say about it!!!!!! There will always be elements of the far right in organisations like the EDL, it’s our job to weed them out, if you look at it logically, we are attacked by the Looney Left and by the Far Right, so surely we are the middle ground?? Edited by Paul81272, Nov 4 2009, 09:45 AM.
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Islam is not a religion it’s a f**king cult, I am still waiting for David Koresh to appear!! This is my opinion and does not reflect the opinion of the EDL. The EDL is ONLY opposed to Islamic Extremism | |
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| Cythraul | Nov 4 2009, 10:23 AM Post #48 |
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(Pronounced: "Koo-Thrall")
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Whoooah! Whilst the EDL has absolutely no connections with the BNP, it doesn't make it constructive to propagate existing lies about the BNP. Isn't it enough to say: "The BNP are there to preserve the indigenous people of Britain and the EDL are there to stand up for all the people of Britain"? That's the only significant difference between the two so stop all this bollocks about the BNP being fascist, Nazi etc. We all know by now how many lies the media spreads about the EDL. Now consider the fact that a lot of what the media tells you about the BNP might also be deceptive. I'm not trying to stick up for the BNP - just the truth! There's absolutely NO connection between the EDL and the BNP. It's a lie that the UAF like to keep repeating (in true Nazi style) to try and disuade normal anti-BNP people from getting involved. |
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| AgeofEnlightenment | Nov 4 2009, 10:26 AM Post #49 |
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Kafir
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Cythraul they are racist, maybe you should look up Griffy's history in the National Front, or his current policy on immigration which will include expelling people who immigrated to England. The BNP itself was founded by John Tyndall of the National Front. Let's not be naive about this. |
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"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche "All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot. "People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin | |
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| Deleted User | Nov 4 2009, 10:54 AM Post #50 |
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Deleted User
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Actualy, we have no connection to any political party and should make that plain. It doesn't matter to us if the BNP are racist or not because we are not connected to them, so really we don't need to defend or attack them. arthur. |
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1:26 AM Jul 11
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Feliz Navidad (Gold) created by Sarah & Delirium of the ZNR











1:26 AM Jul 11