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Why I oppose the current EDL tactics
Topic Started: Nov 2 2009, 12:52 PM (2,762 Views)
chri91
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Hello there, I have attended one of the counter demonstrations. Not because I disagree that extremist Islam needs to be tackled, but because I’m aware that a number of far right and nationalistic parties and groups have been involved in your protest, and I think that you are demonizing a minority rather than actually tackling extremism.

I am however glad you have a right to protest, even if I disagree with parts of the message you are putting across.

I thought I’d come here and have a civil discussion with you.

I’m more than prepared to accept that the majority of EDL supporters are not extremists, that they do not sympathise with white supremacists, and that not all of your demonize all Muslims. There are however known far-right extremist within the organization, and all too many who take the lazy and easy approach of reducing a complex situation to a simplistic dislike of all Muslims.

Really I think it is a bit like after the Gun Powder plot when all Catholics got demonized, even though the overwhelmingly vast majority like everyone else just want to life a decent life, have a family, friends and enjoy themselves.

These idiots sieg heiling at your events are trying to recruit you to their fascist cause, like the BNP they see how you are feeling and try and capitalize on it. They are really hateful and scared people at heart though, and there is nothing English or British about the type of society they really want us to live in. A lot of groups track these people, and their involvement in your organization has resulted in the UAF labelling you all (perhaps unfairly) as Nazi’s. Please try not to hate everyone that wrongly accuses you of that, as most are just well-meaning, but young, naive and worried the EDL will be manipulated into becoming some kind of fascist organization of the type our forefathers fought against..

Burning the Swastika was a start, but so long as there are people like this amongst the group, people will tar you all with the same brush.

The paramilitary style is also very threatening, and likely to make most people just dismiss you as violent thugs, and not listen to your concerns. What's all this about 'being knights' as well, come on that's just a silly bit of romanitic thinking. We are all just people trying to get along.

I personally think the best way of tackling extremism is to have integrated communities, and to work with Muslim people to achieve this. You probably think i’m a woolly liberal though! I have an idea of community actions groups, just ordinary working folk getting together to improve their community. Getting young Muslims lads, working alongside our own working class lads to clean up litter, help out old folk with odd jobs, start football teams etc. Build a sense of community that has been lost in this country, due to hatred, misunderstanding , television, consumerism, supermarkets and big business.

Take for instance football, it used to be about communities coming together to support their local team, and having a nice pint and a chat over a decent local ale. Now the big game is all about rich club owners, TV, selling expensive kits, ripping you off at the gates, and Carling trying to sell their rubbish lager!

If we worked with Muslim people to improve our community with people who have lived in an area for generations would be a good start. I think a lot of these young Muslim lads that turn to extremism feel prosecuted, and if they had felt more part of our culture things wouldn’t be so bad. Perhaps EDL could spend a day organizing this type of thing? You would probably get some of the Left wings groups opposing you at the moment onside, and we might actually tackle extremism together effectively. If it doesn’t work then what have you got to lose?

At the moment your protests just seem to be creating more of a division between communities, and will perhaps make it harder to gain trust and prevent young people being radicalised by extremists. If you have people fighting in the streets, then another race riot could be sparked, and that’s only going to turn more young people towards extremism. Maybe this is a counter-productive way of going about things?

I think there are a lot of problems facing working people in the UK at the moment, housing shortages, a recession brought about by failings in capitalism, transport system is a mess. Immigration can make these problems worse, but I do not think immigration is the main cause. We have all been let down by our poltical leaders that line their own pockets, and hand over our taxes in order that bankers and the spongers in the city can cream a living off the working mans back. I think also a lot of the media controlled by big business are all too happy to blame immigration as the cause of problems, rather than the fact that decent working people cannot earn enough to afford a house, whilst a minority of super rich people have an unfair amount of resources.

I can understand the sheer frustration that I sense is felt, but how are we really going to make things better by shouting at each other in the street?
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AgeofEnlightenment
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Kafir
Bravo. Very well thought out post, and I might say welcome to the forum :)

I agree with most points, the whole militant thing has changed since the group no longer wears ski masks at demonstrations or protests. The argument behind this was safety of the members involved, but we realised it can be too intimidating.

I hope to see you contributing to the debate and discussions on the forums.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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Infidel
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chri91
Nov 2 2009, 12:52 PM


These idiots sieg heiling at your events are trying to recruit you to their fascist cause

Nope.

They are trying to get us branded 'Nazis' because they hate our non-racist stance, that we actively welcome mixed races in our ranks and they hate the fact we are multi-faith and are non-homophobic. They know it will destroy us if we are branded fascist, there is no 'recruitment' motive from them, just hated and destruction.
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Deleted User
Deleted User

I get what you mean by saying we should try and invite more muslims along and community projects etc. This sounds good in theory and up to a point may help, however we are campaining against extremist muslims. These people do not want to be near us let alone be friends.
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FreedomFry
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Kafir
Hey there, I'm glad you've decided to come by and say hi, and thanks for stating openly where you're coming from. Definitely what we need is more dialogue, not less.

We've made it pretty clear that we want nothing to do with nazis and racists. We are very much hoping to be able to work with moderate muslims who are just as concerned as we are with the spread of radicalism, and will shortly be releasing a statement to that effect.

I am actually much more optimistic about our ability to work with them than I am about our ability to find common ground with the UAF who are currently organising the counter protests against us. Although endorsed by a variety of individuals who havent looked into it too closely (who could disagree with 'uniting against fascism?' not me) they are essentially just a repackaging of the socialist workers party. I have been to their meetings, and I even went to one of their protests against griffin back in 2006. I went because I am against the BNP, but I was shocked how much it wasn't an anti-fascist organisation as much as a pro-communism one.

I think the main reason they call the EDL nazis has nothing to do with any actual facts about us. Much more likely is that they need us to be nazis so that they remain relevant. Some of these people have based their whole identity on being "anti-fascist" and so need to see fascism everywhere to feel important.



"I personally think the best way of tackling extremism is to have integrated communities, and to work with Muslim people to achieve this. You probably think i’m a woolly liberal though!"

We don't, at least not because of that statement =P. You'll find that that is actually the official stance of the EDL, and one of the slogans we are adopting is "Integration not Segregation."

anyway glad you came along.
hope you stick around
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chri91
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Infidel
Nov 2 2009, 01:05 PM
chri91
Nov 2 2009, 12:52 PM


These idiots sieg heiling at your events are trying to recruit you to their fascist cause

Nope.

They are trying to get us branded 'Nazis' because they hate our non-racist stance, that we actively welcome mixed races in our ranks and they hate the fact we are multi-faith and are non-homophobic. They know it will destroy us if we are branded fascist, there is no 'recruitment' motive from them, just hated and destruction.
If that's the case then you need to really work at getting these people out of your protests. So far I’ve seen footage of them going around without much criticism at protests, maybe this is something you are becoming more aware of now.

What do people think about my idea of trying to do some kind of community action work that brings people together as well? Surely that would go a long way to improving your reputation and achieving your goals?
You should be aiming to build trust with the Muslim people, and those on the left so they are out alongside you in large number.

I don’t know any left wing types that don’t think Islamic extremism is a problem, Most just think it’s hyped a bit to distract people from the real issues, and that Muslims get demonized quite a lot which makes the problem worse.
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AgeofEnlightenment
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Kafir
Some great points raised, but as for the point about chri9l being considered a woolly liberal; there are some here of a biased persuasion who might, but those with an objective mind will certainly not (most people here).
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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Reggie Kray
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Kafir
Chri91. 'There are however known far-right extremist within the organization'. If you have proof that any of our members are 'white extremists' or bnp members etc, please PM me their names.
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chri91
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Yes the UAF are basically a front for the SWP, you probably won't get all of them to change as many are stuck in their ways. Not everyone who attends a UAF demo are SWP though. The SWP are also very much disliked amongst most socialists, because they care more about selling their bloody papers then actually helping out other working people. I keep trying to tell them they need less bloody naval gazing meetings where they discuss Marx, and they just need to get out there and do some community work. That for me is what socialism is about, brining people together locally to help each other in a free society, it's not about a centralizing community creating some SWP dictatorship!

There are however lot's of different groups on the left, I think the most progressive have put out statements condemning Islamic extremism as well as right wing extremism.

Anyway it's going to be tough building bridges with the Muslim community, as you appear very threatening, and you are being labelled Nazis. Many Muslims I know are too scared to attend any form of protest, apart from a few hot head lads who are there for a bit of excitement.

I agree it's going to be tough, but you could maybe try:

1.Bringing some of the left wing groups and anti-fascists onboard (or at least not actively opposing you). This might be achieved by toning down the English Nationalism. Most people on the left are more concerned about working class community , than an English state which cares little about ordinary people that it's happy to send into war to line the pockets of a few. Honestly there are many on the Left at the moment who think the UAF and SWP are fools for just trying to recruit students to some big cause, and turning their backs on the struggle to help ordinary working people. Many think you are just frustrated people, blaming Islam for a lot of problems. If they saw you activley engaging to try and improve things they might change their mind. At the moment they just see a load of people tub thumping about English Nationalism.

2. Working hard to condemn those on the far-right.

3. Trying to build bridges with the Muslim community.

If you can achive that, you deserve a peace prize.
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Irishcomrad
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chri91
Nov 2 2009, 12:52 PM
Hello there, I have attended one of the counter demonstrations. Not because I disagree that extremist Islam needs to be tackled, but because I’m aware that a number of far right and nationalistic parties and groups have been involved in your protest, and I think that you are demonizing a minority rather than actually tackling extremism.

I am however glad you have a right to protest, even if I disagree with parts of the message you are putting across.

I thought I’d come here and have a civil discussion with you.

I’m more than prepared to accept that the majority of EDL supporters are not extremists, that they do not sympathise with white supremacists, and that not all of your demonize all Muslims. There are however known far-right extremist within the organization, and all too many who take the lazy and easy approach of reducing a complex situation to a simplistic dislike of all Muslims.

Really I think it is a bit like after the Gun Powder plot when all Catholics got demonized, even though the overwhelmingly vast majority like everyone else just want to life a decent life, have a family, friends and enjoy themselves.

These idiots sieg heiling at your events are trying to recruit you to their fascist cause, like the BNP they see how you are feeling and try and capitalize on it. They are really hateful and scared people at heart though, and there is nothing English or British about the type of society they really want us to live in. A lot of groups track these people, and their involvement in your organization has resulted in the UAF labelling you all (perhaps unfairly) as Nazi’s. Please try not to hate everyone that wrongly accuses you of that, as most are just well-meaning, but young, naive and worried the EDL will be manipulated into becoming some kind of fascist organization of the type our forefathers fought against..

Burning the Swastika was a start, but so long as there are people like this amongst the group, people will tar you all with the same brush.

The paramilitary style is also very threatening, and likely to make most people just dismiss you as violent thugs, and not listen to your concerns. What's all this about 'being knights' as well, come on that's just a silly bit of romanitic thinking. We are all just people trying to get along.

I personally think the best way of tackling extremism is to have integrated communities, and to work with Muslim people to achieve this. You probably think i’m a woolly liberal though! I have an idea of community actions groups, just ordinary working folk getting together to improve their community. Getting young Muslims lads, working alongside our own working class lads to clean up litter, help out old folk with odd jobs, start football teams etc. Build a sense of community that has been lost in this country, due to hatred, misunderstanding , television, consumerism, supermarkets and big business.

Take for instance football, it used to be about communities coming together to support their local team, and having a nice pint and a chat over a decent local ale. Now the big game is all about rich club owners, TV, selling expensive kits, ripping you off at the gates, and Carling trying to sell their rubbish lager!

If we worked with Muslim people to improve our community with people who have lived in an area for generations would be a good start. I think a lot of these young Muslim lads that turn to extremism feel prosecuted, and if they had felt more part of our culture things wouldn’t be so bad. Perhaps EDL could spend a day organizing this type of thing? You would probably get some of the Left wings groups opposing you at the moment onside, and we might actually tackle extremism together effectively. If it doesn’t work then what have you got to lose?

At the moment your protests just seem to be creating more of a division between communities, and will perhaps make it harder to gain trust and prevent young people being radicalised by extremists. If you have people fighting in the streets, then another race riot could be sparked, and that’s only going to turn more young people towards extremism. Maybe this is a counter-productive way of going about things?

I think there are a lot of problems facing working people in the UK at the moment, housing shortages, a recession brought about by failings in capitalism, transport system is a mess. Immigration can make these problems worse, but I do not think immigration is the main cause. We have all been let down by our poltical leaders that line their own pockets, and hand over our taxes in order that bankers and the spongers in the city can cream a living off the working mans back. I think also a lot of the media controlled by big business are all too happy to blame immigration as the cause of problems, rather than the fact that decent working people cannot earn enough to afford a house, whilst a minority of super rich people have an unfair amount of resources.

I can understand the sheer frustration that I sense is felt, but how are we really going to make things better by shouting at each other in the street?


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty unto Him."
- Qu'ran Sura 9, Verse 123

3. Britons In Peril - First Comes Saturday, Then Sunday

Background

Great Britain, a once proud Christian country, a nation upon whose mighty Empire "the sun never set" now faces a serious threat unlike any it has faced in its long and glorious history. The Marxist-Liberal ideology of Multiculturalism and ensuing mass-immigration has seen Islam grow and flourish within our borders, spawning an Islamic "fifth column" whose religious duty is to wage jihad upon our people until Islam reigns supreme.

The recent Muslim march through London, complete with a call to Islam - Da'wa - and the disgraceful abuse of British soldiers returning from active service in Iraq by Muslim jihadists provide clear examples illustrating how confident the Muslim community is growing and that imposing Islam and Sharia law on the UK is their religious goal.

I have attempted to explain that advancing Islam is the sacred religious duty for all Muslims, both in the two essays preceding this one and through many offline debates. Communicating this fact is a very difficult task because through political correctness and the liberal multicult ideology, many brainwashed politically correct Britons believe Islam is a "Religion of Peace" and they are totally unaware of the supremacist reality of Islam and its psychopathic, warmongering prophet Mohammed.

Ignorance is a weakness Muslims exploit to the maximum. Should anyone have the temerity to shine the spotlight of truth upon Islam, they will be accused of the hate-crimes of "Islamophobe" and "racist" and they will be supported by well-meaning but dangerously misguided infidel Britons who are setting up a nightmare future of subservience under Islamic hegemony in their homeland.

Lying to the infidels to advance Islam, known as "Al Taqiyya" has been one of the most effective strategies deployed by Muslims to turn "Dar al Harb" - the lands of war, the domain of the infidel - into "Dar al Islam" - the lands of Islam, the domain of the believers, throughout the history of Islamic jihad. Studying the example of Mohammed "al insan al kamil" reveals that he would deceive his adversaries at will, and he stated quite clearly: "War is deceit."

Keeping infidels trapped in a fog of ignorance is a cunning tactic that has enabled Muslims to conquer many nations and establish Islamic hegemony and if Britons continue to wallow in such comfortable but ultimately destructive ignorance, then Great Britain will become "Al Britannia" just as the kingdoms of once Christian Anatolia became Islamic Turkey.

It is so important for British Nationalists - indeed, every Briton - to understand a simple truth about Islam: Its intolerance for non-believers and how non-believers are treated when they come in to contact with Muslims around the world. It is this intolerance and persecution of infidels that I will focus on in this essay and I warn you now, I am not going to hold back. What you are about to discover is disturbing, unpleasant, shocking and deeply distressing but it is a harsh, painful truth about Islam that has to be told. We ignore this uncomfortable truth at our great peril.

Behold, this is the reality of the Islamic future that awaits you and your children...

Who Do You Think You Are?

I'm sure every Briton has heard the word "infidel". But I wonder how many of them know what an infidel actually is? For that matter, I wonder how many British Nationalists possess a full awareness of what this pejorative word means? Ask for a definition and more likely than not you will hear "Oh it's someone who isn't a Muslim" or even as I have heard several times "isn't it someone who is white?"

Understanding exactly how an infidel is regarded by Muslims is the first and most important step to take when studying the attitude of Muslims to, along with their treatment of, non-believers. When a land has been conquered by Islam, it becomes part of "Dar al Islam" meaning that it is a land where Islamic Sharia holds jurisprudence. So step one, what is the definition of an infidel under Sharia law.

Under Islamic Sharia, Muslims find guidance regarding actions or objects they are permitted to use - called Halal - and they will also find actions and objects that are forbidden - Haram. Under Sharia, we find Najis, objects and actions that are forbidden because they are "filth." There are ten of these:

Dogs, pigs, dead bodies, the sweat or body fluids of these creatures, blood, semen, urine, faeces, alcohol and, yes, score one if you're ahead here, the infidel, the non-believer, also referred to as "kuffar" which is a much more common and far stronger word. This was the insult hurled at the fleeing Police in the recent pro-Palestinian marches on the streets of London. It is an absolutely disgusting insult, make no mistake about it.

When people hear the word "******" they are outraged, yet they remain totally indifferent to "kuffar". ******, although pejorative too, is a word that solely describes someone as being black and is derived from the Latin word "niger" - black. Yet look at those ten najis and see what Muslims regard the kuffar as the equivalent of.

Just watch this, Muslims singing about kuffars, and I'm proud to see that our illustrious leader Nick Griffin gets a mention:

Dirty Kuffar

Lovely video, isn't it, especially the end. It begins with the shahada, and a greeting "bismallah al rahim" - in the name of Allah the most merciful. See for yourself just how merciful Allah is.

Islam - i.e. Muslims - regards ALL unbelievers, including you and I, as kuffars. Kuffars are the equivalent of pigs, dogs, urine and excreta, and as such, are regarded as the lowest of the low by Muslims. And the proof of just how much hatred Muslims have for kuffars is evidenced by their actions towards them wherever Muslims and kuffars co-exist.

The New "Untermensch"

Qu'ran Sura 9 "Al Tawba - Repentance", verse 29:

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and his Messenger (Mohammed), nor acknowledge the religion of truth even if they are people of the book (Jews and Christians) until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued."

Please read that verse once again, it is the most important verse in the Qu'ran for kuffars to be aware of and is referred to as "The Verse Of Tribute".

An important note here before I continue. You may recall from the previous essay a video of an Islamic demonstration where Da'wa - the call to Islam - was issued several times. I stated that this is very important and here's why. Read 9:29 and you will see "..nor acknowledge the religion of truth...". This means that if kuffars accept Islam and convert, then all is well. However, if they refuse, they are subjugated or killed. This is exactly how Mohammed waged war against the infidels, by first offering the call to Islam. The Islamic jihad being waged upon us today is all about the example set by Mohammed as I have stated repeatedly throughout these essays.

I really hope you can now see why that particular Islamic march isn't quite as innocent as it looks. OK, let's continue and you're going to see exactly how 9:29 works.

The verse of tribute has been used by Muslims to subjugate kuffars throughout the world and relegate them to the status of Dhimmitude - subservience to Muslims. Although it explicitly states dhimmitude only applies to Jews and Christians, Hindus are also afforded dhimmi status too. The Jizya is the tax dhimmis must pay to their Muslim masters or face death. It's a protection racket if you like and the bad news is should Muslims decide they've had enough they will withdraw dhimmi status and persecution ensues. 9:29, this barbaric verse, is responsible for millions of deaths and God knows how much persecution for non-believers.

The choices given to kuffars are quite clear in this verse: Convert to Islam, accept dhimmitude WILLINGLY or fight and die. The whole status of dhimmitude though is just a ruse. The end result is ALWAYS the same: Convert, fight or die.

Of course Muslims will be outraged at what I'm writing, but they're outraged about anything and everything aren't they? Instead of listening to demented pious fanatics who try to bully and intimidate people into accepting their own demise, let's look around the world and see what actually happens to kuffars wherever Islamic Sharia rules.

As Britain is still - just about - a Christian nation and because many of the remaining practising Christians like the Arch-Dhimmi of Canterbury believe they will be able to co-exist peacefully with Muslims, let's now see how Christians and Muslims get on around the world.

Sunday, Sunday

First port of call: The Middle East.

Saudi Arabia, the land where Muslims believe the Islamic prophet Mohammed received the revelations of the Qu'ran, offers a good start to gain an insight of Muslim hatred towards the kuffar. Not only are Jews forbidden to enter Saudi Arabia, no kuffar is allowed to enter the holy cities of Mecca and Medina on pain of death.

Do other religions have similar attitude towards non-believers visiting their holy cities and their places of worship? Take an educated guess as to the person who made this rule. Hint: He married and then raped a child.

"First we deal with the Saturday people then we deal with the Sunday people."

The West Doesn't Realise What They Are Facing With Islam

They Hate You Because Of Religion

Whilst our military personnel are fighting and dying in Iraq "to establish democracy", this is what is happening to Assyrian Christians:

Convert, Pay Or Die

Genocide of Iraqi Christians

Boy Crucified, Baby Roasted

Remind me again, what was it Anjem Choudary and his cowardly band of jihadists were accusing the British soldiers of doing in Iraq? How strange that we don't see "moderate Muslims" on the streets of London protesting against what "extremists who don't represent the Muslim community" are doing to Assyrian Christians.

Then there's that place where those Nazi Jews are oppressing the poor Arab Muslims:

Christians In The Palestine Authority

And let's take a good look at what those poor, oppressed "Palestinians" did to once Christian and once beautiful Lebanon, crown jewel of the Middle East:

Palestinians Persecute Christians In Lebanon

The video above sounds a very clear warning about what is going to happen to Britain, the circumstances that led to the destruction of Lebanon are exactly the circumstances being created in Britain right now. And let me ask you this:

If the Muslims in Lebanon could kill 100,000 ARAB Christians, what on earth do you think they will do to British Christians?

Funny how the media never mention any of this though isn't it? Too busy spreading pro-Palestinian propaganda for HAMAS and Hizballah no doubt. Well, they have to keep their Saudi paymasters happy. Mustn't offend our Saudi masters whatever we do.

But what about Egypt? Surely things are better there? It's a lovely place for a holiday and everyone knows it's now a modern secular society:

Christian Copts Live In The Garbage 1of 3

Christian Burned Alive In Egypt

Surely that's all because of the unique problems in the Middle East, it's not as bad in other Muslim countries such as one of the world's biggest Muslim populations, Indonesia:

Christians Persecuted In Indonesia

Including little Christian girls:




Are Christians faring any better anywhere else?

Christians Persecuted By Muslims Around The World

Choosing Extermination

What grates with me is the typical "turn the other cheek" suicidal Christian cowardice the narrator makes at the end. Feeling spiritual is much better than standing up to Muslim brutality and persecution is it? Not if you want to survive - along with your faith - it isn't. Christians have to understand: Muslims are not playing a game here. The choice is Islam, subjugation or death and being spiritual isn't going to cut the mustard. Islam must be stopped or Islam will destroy you unless you convert. Period.

But why take Reconquista's words about persecution of Christians being a very real fate for kuffar Britons. The Muslims are telling you themselves:


Get the message, Sunday people, you dirty kuffars?

Qu'ran Sura 9 "Al Tawba - Repentance", verse 05:

"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

The Saturday people and the Sunday people aren't the only kuffars to be persecuted at the hands of devout Muslims. The verse above, 9:05 from the Qu'ran, is also called "The Verse of the Sword" and it defines how Muslims are to deal with idolaters. Idolaters such as the Hindus in India who have been on the receiving end of Islamic jihad since 638, total deaths estimated at a staggering EIGHTY MILLION and it is a persecution that continues today.

Hindus are guilty of the diabolical crime of "Mushrikoun" or "Shirk", that is worshipping more than one deity. This really does outrage Muslims - how dare you worship more than one deity - so Mushrikoun have to be taught a lesson in Islamic tolerance:



Hindu Monk Tied and Beaten By Muslims



Hindu Being Beaten To Death By Muslims Outside A Mosque In Bangladesh. He had the nerve to pass-by a Mosque minding his own business just as moderate Muslims were leaving Friday prayer.


The "Religion of Peace" At Work In Mumbai

So far, we have seen how Christians are treated in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, "Palestine", Egypt, Indonesia and had a quick tour around the world. We've also looked at how Hindus are faring in India so there can't be any more kuffars who are being persecuted can there?

Nirvana Versus Jihad

If there is one conflict that truly shows up Muslims for the intolerant, violent and oppressive fanatics they really are it is the Islamic jihad being waged in Southern Thailand against the Buddhists.

Yes, you read that correctly, Buddhists. Those people who believe strictly in non-violence and peace, who believe no living creature should be harmed and who have pretty much caused no harm to any other people are now being treated to the delights of "The Religion of Peace." Over 3,300 Buddhists have been slaughtered to date by fanatical Islamic jihadists who fight in Allah's cause.

And yet once again, the media give little coverage to this conflict, focusing attention instead on the sham "Palestinian" cause conveniently ignoring the fact that Muslims are oppressing and slaughtering thousands upon thousands of non-believers around the world all to the cry of "Allahu Akhbar!" as they devoutly follow the perfect example of their faith, the insane paedophile, murderer and enslaver Mohammed.

Jihad Against Buddhists

The following video discusses the jihad against the Buddhists and makes some very interesting comparisons between how the Thai and western governments respond to Islamic jihad:

Jihad In Thailand

Whenever you hear Islamic apologists trotting out the usual lame, pathetic excuses to tolerate the intolerable, you can now ask them why it is that Muslims can't even tolerate Buddhists.

And to see what devout Muslims are capable of doing to human beings solely because they are Buddhists - "kuffars" - here's how the "Religion of Peace" spreads its message in Thailand:

Buddhists Massacred By Muslims

Did you get the word used in the "get out of town" note the Thai Muslim jihadists sent to the Buddhist teacher?

Time To Reflect

I wanted to continue this essay by providing more evidence to demonstrate the depraved cruelty Muslims are capable of doing to human beings as they follow the example of their psychopathic prophet and the laws laid down in Sharia that reflect the divine will of Allah but I think you and I both need a break from the revolting horrors of Islam for now.

I think it is also a time to reflect that what you have discovered in this essay is occurring right now to real human beings whose only crime is to be a non-Muslim. The world ignores their cries of pain, the agony of their suffering and their appalling persecution, preferring instead to tolerate, support and protect the very people who are responsible for these vile crimes against humanity - Muslims who are funded by petrodollar rich states, especially Saudi Arabia and Iran. We are at war with these Islamic states and we have to recognise this or these states are going to fund the destruction of our nation. THIS IS GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

Please know this and know it well: The human beings you've seen and heard in this essay are no different to you and I and what has happened - and is happening - to them will happen to us unless we rid the cancer of Islam from our land.

What kind of world tolerates this vile, barbaric, inhumane hate-filled "religion" and when will we all have the strength of our convictions to stand up and say:

"No more Islam, not here, not anywhere. We tolerate the intolerant no more."

I will continue to provide more evidence about how evil Islam is in the next essay but before I go, allow me to leave you with this little gem from a true fountain of human kindness:

"Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males provided they are not disabled or incapacitated to prepare themselves for the conquest of countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world. But those who study Islamic holy war will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world." - Ayatollah Khomeini

I wonder where he found the inspiration for that?
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FreedomFry
Nov 2 2009, 01:13 PM
I think the main reason they call the EDL nazis has nothing to do with any actual facts about us. Much more likely is that they need us to be nazis so that they remain relevant. Some of these people have based their whole identity on being "anti-fascist" and so need to see fascism everywhere to feel important.

100% spot on

I only hope the EDL doesn't turn into a version of the UAF and becomes a counter demonstration organisation.

Let's be clear about this, this radical muslims are not only inciting the likes of 7/7 but racist attacks against white youths all over the country.

This is, in some ways, as important as the majot terrorist attacks.

The rhetoric from their side prevetns integration which compounds existing tension and creates further problems later on.

We CANNOT acquiesce and appease the muslims at any stage. They will not be grateful and will be become confident of the barbarism. We'll see free speech disprespected like it is in the Netherlands where politicans are stabbed to death for speaking their mind.

A clear message needs to be sent out that this will never be accepted. The cancer needs to be beaten now before it spreads.

There's no country on earth that has seen social problems reduce with a increase in the muslim population.

Yes, not all muslims are extremists but don't let political correctnedd blind us to a very, very real problem.
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AgeofEnlightenment
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Irishcomrad, what has this got to do with anything chri91 said?
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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The Swine
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I personally think the best way of tackling extremism is to have integrated communities, and to work with Muslim people to achieve this. You probably think i’m a woolly liberal though! I have an idea of community actions groups, just ordinary working folk getting together to improve their community. Getting young Muslims lads, working alongside our own working class lads to clean up litter, help out old folk with odd jobs, start football teams etc. Build a sense of community that has been lost in this country, due to hatred, misunderstanding , television, consumerism, supermarkets and big business


Its a bit difficult when the goverment encourages communities to adopt the doctrine of apartheid.Things will change when Muslims see themsleves and others as human beings rather than classifying people by their religous beliefs.We are the kuffar,the none believers,and they will always hold us in contempt and have no wish to integrate with us.

The best policy is one of tolerance.If they leave us alone we will leave them alone.
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chri91
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ertonian when any new group of people joins a population then I think there is going to be an increase in social problems. In the 30s you could have been having this same conversation about Jews. I don't think engaging with Muslim people to tackle extremism is appeasing anyone.
Yes you are right things do cut both ways, I know women who have had stones thrown at them for simply walking in some areas, but that is more a cultural problem rather than Islam as a religion per se.
For instance in some Islamic countries they have quite a lot of freedom and women are treated very equally. In others you have dictatorships, and women have to cover up. Take for instance Egypt at the moment, there is a big debate about trying to ban the veil in schools. The same with female circumcision, it's a cultural thing linked to patriarchal control rather than religion. As a left wing type of person myself, of course I’m going to condemn those actions as well. That doesn’t mean I think that it’s a Muslim problem, any more than I would tar all Christians as being creationists or anti-science because of a few hicks in the US!
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Polious
Nov 2 2009, 01:56 PM
Quote:
 
I personally think the best way of tackling extremism is to have integrated communities, and to work with Muslim people to achieve this. You probably think i’m a woolly liberal though! I have an idea of community actions groups, just ordinary working folk getting together to improve their community. Getting young Muslims lads, working alongside our own working class lads to clean up litter, help out old folk with odd jobs, start football teams etc. Build a sense of community that has been lost in this country, due to hatred, misunderstanding , television, consumerism, supermarkets and big business


Its a bit difficult when the goverment encourages communities to adopt the doctrine of apartheid.Things will change when Muslims see themsleves and others as human beings rather than classifying people by their religous beliefs.We are the kuffar,the none believers,and they will always hold us in contempt and have no wish to integrate with us.

The best policy is one of tolerance.If they leave us alone we will leave them alone.
Yep. wooly hat brigade. I personaly think that the best way of tackling extremism is to 'center mass' all of them.

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chri91
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Nov 2 2009, 01:56 PM
Quote:
 
I personally think the best way of tackling extremism is to have integrated communities, and to work with Muslim people to achieve this. You probably think i’m a woolly liberal though! I have an idea of community actions groups, just ordinary working folk getting together to improve their community. Getting young Muslims lads, working alongside our own working class lads to clean up litter, help out old folk with odd jobs, start football teams etc. Build a sense of community that has been lost in this country, due to hatred, misunderstanding , television, consumerism, supermarkets and big business


Its a bit difficult when the goverment encourages communities to adopt the doctrine of apartheid.Things will change when Muslims see themsleves and others as human beings rather than classifying people by their religous beliefs.We are the kuffar,the none believers,and they will always hold us in contempt and have no wish to integrate with us.

The best policy is one of tolerance.If they leave us alone we will leave them alone.
It's tricky, but not all Muslims see it in those black and white terms of believer or non-believer. I worked with a Muslim lady for years and she always saw the basics of being a human came first.

Even if some Muslim's to think you a non-believer, that doesn't mean they won't treat you like a human being too. Although of course there were the crusades, for many years Christians, Muslims and Jews lived together and tried to build a Jerusalem that was tolerant of each other. That’s what we need to do in England, build a new Jerusalem. We need to show that despite extremism we take the moral high ground. Extend a hand to those that want to live with our shared values, as well as condemning those who don’t.
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AgeofEnlightenment
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chri91
Nov 2 2009, 02:09 PM
Polious
Nov 2 2009, 01:56 PM
Quote:
 
I personally think the best way of tackling extremism is to have integrated communities, and to work with Muslim people to achieve this. You probably think i’m a woolly liberal though! I have an idea of community actions groups, just ordinary working folk getting together to improve their community. Getting young Muslims lads, working alongside our own working class lads to clean up litter, help out old folk with odd jobs, start football teams etc. Build a sense of community that has been lost in this country, due to hatred, misunderstanding , television, consumerism, supermarkets and big business


Its a bit difficult when the goverment encourages communities to adopt the doctrine of apartheid.Things will change when Muslims see themsleves and others as human beings rather than classifying people by their religous beliefs.We are the kuffar,the none believers,and they will always hold us in contempt and have no wish to integrate with us.

The best policy is one of tolerance.If they leave us alone we will leave them alone.
It's tricky, but not all Muslims see it in those black and white terms of believer or non-believer. I worked with a Muslim lady for years and she always saw the basics of being a human came first.

Even if some Muslim's to think you a non-believer, that doesn't mean they won't treat you like a human being too. Although of course there were the crusades, for many years Christians, Muslims and Jews lived together and tried to build a Jerusalem that was tolerant of each other. That’s what we need to do in England, build a new Jerusalem. We need to show that despite extremism we take the moral high ground. Extend a hand to those that want to live with our shared values, as well as condemning those who don’t.
I have to stop you there.

What we need to do is not make another Jerusalem; too many bloody wars have been fought over that city and frankly we don't need that in England.

We need to uphold secular and democratic values, and bring back freedom of speech for all.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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chri91
Nov 2 2009, 12:52 PM
Hello there, I have attended one of the counter demonstrations. Not because I disagree that extremist Islam needs to be tackled, but because I’m aware that a number of far right and nationalistic parties and groups have been involved in your protest, and I think that you are demonizing a minority rather than actually tackling extremism.

I am however glad you have a right to protest, even if I disagree with parts of the message you are putting across.

I thought I’d come here and have a civil discussion with you.

I’m more than prepared to accept that the majority of EDL supporters are not extremists, that they do not sympathise with white supremacists, and that not all of your demonize all Muslims. There are however known far-right extremist within the organization, and all too many who take the lazy and easy approach of reducing a complex situation to a simplistic dislike of all Muslims.

Really I think it is a bit like after the Gun Powder plot when all Catholics got demonized, even though the overwhelmingly vast majority like everyone else just want to life a decent life, have a family, friends and enjoy themselves.

These idiots sieg heiling at your events are trying to recruit you to their fascist cause, like the BNP they see how you are feeling and try and capitalize on it. They are really hateful and scared people at heart though, and there is nothing English or British about the type of society they really want us to live in. A lot of groups track these people, and their involvement in your organization has resulted in the UAF labelling you all (perhaps unfairly) as Nazi’s. Please try not to hate everyone that wrongly accuses you of that, as most are just well-meaning, but young, naive and worried the EDL will be manipulated into becoming some kind of fascist organization of the type our forefathers fought against..

Burning the Swastika was a start, but so long as there are people like this amongst the group, people will tar you all with the same brush.

The paramilitary style is also very threatening, and likely to make most people just dismiss you as violent thugs, and not listen to your concerns. What's all this about 'being knights' as well, come on that's just a silly bit of romanitic thinking. We are all just people trying to get along.

I personally think the best way of tackling extremism is to have integrated communities, and to work with Muslim people to achieve this. You probably think i’m a woolly liberal though! I have an idea of community actions groups, just ordinary working folk getting together to improve their community. Getting young Muslims lads, working alongside our own working class lads to clean up litter, help out old folk with odd jobs, start football teams etc. Build a sense of community that has been lost in this country, due to hatred, misunderstanding , television, consumerism, supermarkets and big business.

Take for instance football, it used to be about communities coming together to support their local team, and having a nice pint and a chat over a decent local ale. Now the big game is all about rich club owners, TV, selling expensive kits, ripping you off at the gates, and Carling trying to sell their rubbish lager!

If we worked with Muslim people to improve our community with people who have lived in an area for generations would be a good start. I think a lot of these young Muslim lads that turn to extremism feel prosecuted, and if they had felt more part of our culture things wouldn’t be so bad. Perhaps EDL could spend a day organizing this type of thing? You would probably get some of the Left wings groups opposing you at the moment onside, and we might actually tackle extremism together effectively. If it doesn’t work then what have you got to lose?

At the moment your protests just seem to be creating more of a division between communities, and will perhaps make it harder to gain trust and prevent young people being radicalised by extremists. If you have people fighting in the streets, then another race riot could be sparked, and that’s only going to turn more young people towards extremism. Maybe this is a counter-productive way of going about things?

I think there are a lot of problems facing working people in the UK at the moment, housing shortages, a recession brought about by failings in capitalism, transport system is a mess. Immigration can make these problems worse, but I do not think immigration is the main cause. We have all been let down by our poltical leaders that line their own pockets, and hand over our taxes in order that bankers and the spongers in the city can cream a living off the working mans back. I think also a lot of the media controlled by big business are all too happy to blame immigration as the cause of problems, rather than the fact that decent working people cannot earn enough to afford a house, whilst a minority of super rich people have an unfair amount of resources.

I can understand the sheer frustration that I sense is felt, but how are we really going to make things better by shouting at each other in the street?
Written like a well honed member of UAF.
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AgeofEnlightenment
Nov 2 2009, 02:12 PM
chri91
Nov 2 2009, 02:09 PM
Polious
Nov 2 2009, 01:56 PM
Quote:
 
I personally think the best way of tackling extremism is to have integrated communities, and to work with Muslim people to achieve this. You probably think i’m a woolly liberal though! I have an idea of community actions groups, just ordinary working folk getting together to improve their community. Getting young Muslims lads, working alongside our own working class lads to clean up litter, help out old folk with odd jobs, start football teams etc. Build a sense of community that has been lost in this country, due to hatred, misunderstanding , television, consumerism, supermarkets and big business
<br /><br /> Its a bit difficult when the goverment encourages communities to adopt the doctrine of apartheid.Things will change when Muslims see themsleves and others as human beings rather than classifying people by their religous beliefs.We are the kuffar,the none believers,and they will always hold us in contempt and have no wish to integrate with us.<br /><br /> The best policy is one of tolerance.If they leave us alone we will leave them alone.
It's tricky, but not all Muslims see it in those black and white terms of believer or non-believer. I worked with a Muslim lady for years and she always saw the basics of being a human came first.<br /><br />Even if some Muslim's to think you a non-believer, that doesn't mean they won't treat you like a human being too. Although of course there were the crusades, for many years Christians, Muslims and Jews lived together and tried to build a Jerusalem that was tolerant of each other. That’s what we need to do in England, build a new Jerusalem. We need to show that despite extremism we take the moral high ground. Extend a hand to those that want to live with our shared values, as well as condemning those who don’t. <br />
I have to stop you there.<br /><br />What we need to do is not make another Jerusalem; too many bloody wars have been fought over that city and frankly we don't need that in England.<br /><br />We need to uphold secular and democratic values, and bring back freedom of speech for all.
There is no such thing as democracy in Britain.

http://www.stanford.edu/~ldiamond/iraq/WhaIsDemocracy012004.htm
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EDL are not demonising, they, we, are peacefully protesting and our shouting has drawn a lot of attention to this issue, there need to be a debate nation wide and this debate needs to be an honest one, without the racist slur on anyone who stands up and protests about the appeasement of Islamist.

There may well be some of the right wing among us, but so what, we cannot police every single member and nor can any very large group like EDL.

English Muslims need to stop their fence sitting and to chase out the extremists, they know full well who they are and they need to do more. To show that they do believe in our country and our way of life.

Instead of joining a counter demo you should attend one of ours and then you will see that we are good people trying to make a difference.

The fact that some people are hiding among us should actually tell you something, they are hiding for a reason, they are not wanted. They can't take us over because there is nothing to take over, no elections or committees to take over, so they can only hide.

I agree with you that educating young Muslims that our system of democracy is the best in the world, well was, until labour destroyed it. They destroyed the thread that bound the different communities together and created a separatism and that has to be undone, so that there is unification about the most important parts of our culture and democracy. Then we will all be fighting the same fight.

You say that we should work with Muslims but I would rather put it the other way round, they should be working with us.

The UAF decided to try to attack the EDL, not the other way round, the UAF made a connection by us to the BNP and then wound up young Asians into believing that we are the BNP and created a riot, we didn't use violence, we didn't throw things at the police, so EDL cannot take the blame for young Asians believing that we are the BNP.

UAF spotted some BNP and created mayhem from it, did they spot labour members among us, Tories,libdems, because we are all different, with differing political point's of view, come together in the one cause.

I hope you will stay on the forum and put you're point of view because you made some interesting points.
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I know democracy is being torn to pieces in Britain, that's why I said we need to uphold them, pretty much fight for them. You need to fight for your rights while you still have the chance, not when they're completely gone.

Edited - Hertfordshire has a point.
Edited by AgeofEnlightenment, Nov 2 2009, 02:38 PM.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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A whole page on one reply full of quotes. this is getting stupid. can't anybody reply without having to quote the whole bloody thread.? it's annoying ok. (and just lazy)
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chri91
Nov 2 2009, 02:09 PM
I worked with a Muslim lady for years and she always saw the basics of being a human came first.
Many Muslim's call themselves Muslim's, and don't know much about their own religion.

When people tell them about their own religion, they refuse to believe it; because you're not a Muslim: How can a non-Muslim know so much about Islam? Impossible?

Old statistics because it's an old video re-uploaded:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQrRDrFSjDE

Geert Wilder's (Leader of the second largest Party in Holland):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-akx0O7sUfA

Long video explaining the beginning of the spread of Jihad in the USA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osZ5TvhiTZQ

It's happening everywhere my friend.
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ignominius
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We don't demonise all muslims just those that hold the extremist views and want sharia imposed here. Yes there are elements of the far-right in our ranks. We have been and are continuing to try to weed them out. Anyone caught seig-heiling at a demo will not do it again for sure.

Our protests have started debates where none were before. Our government doesn't like democracy or free speech. Just look at what is happening over the cannabis debate. I am against the legalisation of cannabis, but if a government scientist stands up and says something of point, I listent to him. I don't have to agree with him. The Government reacted in a totalitarian way. Someone said something they didn't like, so sack him. Indiciative of what this government is upto. Engaging the left is pointless as they are like our government not interested in our country or our values or our culture. In fact they despise them with an intensity. We can't engage the right because of the rascism rampant amongst those groups. That just leaves us and some 'moderate' muslims and some 'ex-muslims'.

Protests alone will not change government policy but it's a start and soon we will develop further strategies to add to our protests.

Well, I've written enough that should be food for thought.
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AgeofEnlightenment
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J2897:

Most followers of all religions behave in that manner when they are exposed to scriptures or aspects of their religion which aren't particularly pleasant.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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Nov 2 2009, 02:14 PM
Written like a well honed member of UAF.
I've had just about enough of people abusing people who come on here to have a civil discussion. This chap has come right out and said where he's coming from. We want more people to come on here and talk. This sort of thing is going to start earning warnings.
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chri91
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I'm not UAF, jeez lot's of people on the left dislike Swappies too. Just go on any discussion thread and you will see socialists taking the piss out the SWP selling their papers and only seeking to recurit students to further their own organization. I am on the left, yet you are able to engage with me, these things are complex.

You can't of course be responsibile for everything people do at your protests, but you should attempt to try and kick the facist out. You get idiots at all protests and it only takes one idiot and the press will jump on that.

Most people I know on the left love our culture, and the people just dislike the notion of a nation state that is happy to send working class people off to fight it's wars, talks about freedom yet delivers no freedom, and exists to further the interests of the rich and powerful rather than the people.

I hope you do develop some good stratagies. I've come and had my say anyway about what the best way to tackle extermism is. There are debates going on within left wing politics about the need to speak out against all forms of exterism, and some realization that you are not all 'facist scum'. Hopefully some common ground can be found, and we can work together to get rid of extermism whether it's from White Supremacists or Islamic extremists in order to build a tolerant society.
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AgeofEnlightenment
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I've known all a long there are some genuine lefties, marxists, and anarchists who find islamic extremism to be completely abhorrent and divisive, and I've always known the SWP are a bad example of socialist thinkers.

Given the current topic, would you know of any blogs, forums, or groups that are politically left that consider the SWP a joke, or that might consider us a legitimate group? I'm not up to date on what left groups exist in Britain at current (as I don't live there).
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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chri91
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Nov 2 2009, 03:03 PM
Wasted
Nov 2 2009, 02:14 PM
Written like a well honed member of UAF.
I've had just about enough of people abusing people who come on here to have a civil discussion. This chap has come right out and said where he's coming from. We want more people to come on here and talk. This sort of thing is going to start earning warnings.
It's ok, I appreciate we are in an entrenched situation and it's easy to see things as UAF vs EDL but that's what I’m trying to get away from. UAF want to unite against fascism, and I think that should be inclusive of uniting against radical Islam as well as right-wing extremism.
The left has I think been cosying up too much with some people with very intolerant views that really oppose what a lot of lefties like myself believe in. The reason for this in my view is because the government has used the threat of Islamic extremism to wage wars that have only provoked the situation, and to crack down on our civil liberties like freedom of speech etc. All sorts of things like ID cards to control orders have been brought in to tackle Islamic extremism, but none of these things have been effective.
Many on the left see Islamic extremism as a bit of a bogey man that has been convenient for the government, however that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist to some real extent. Just that the government has been rubbish at dealing with it, instead we see all Muslims getting the blame increase segregation. Whereas places in Birmingham people just to get on together now it’s dividing into White and Asian zones. That’s bad news as it’s within segregated communities that extremism flourishes.
Just as I’d like to see EDL tone down the general anti-muslim sentiment, and kick out the fascists, because think it’s essential to bring the Muslim community onside in tackling extremism, so too would I like the left groups like UAF to accept that Islamic extremism does exist as a problem and start to tackle it. They should be uniting communities to tackle all forms of extremism, through building understanding and trust. We should be seeking to get away from this entrenchment and thinking about what we agree on, and what the common ground is.
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Hi Chri91, thank you for your insights and suggestions. I hope that you hang around and add a few more suitable comments from time to time. No group is above constructive criticism and EDL is no exception. Sometimes it takes an outsider to see things in a different light. I am sure that you are more than welcome here to add your thoughts even if we won't always see eye to eye.
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AgeofEnlightenment
Nov 2 2009, 03:22 PM
I've known all a long there are some genuine lefties, marxists, and anarchists who find islamic extremism to be completely abhorrent and divisive, and I've always known the SWP are a bad example of socialist thinkers.

Given the current topic, would you know of any blogs, forums, or groups that are politically left that consider the SWP a joke, or that might consider us a legitimate group? I'm not up to date on what left groups exist in Britain at current (as I don't live there).

It's very difficult, becuase just as some people on here will label me UAF, most left groups are just going to assume you are all facist and not give you the time of day. I hope though that there are some that will try to work with you if you are serious about tackling Islamic extermism and the facists right.

It might be worth having a look at the Indepedend Working Class Assocation (IWCA). They have some interesting articules (exceprt below) on the current situation, and propose solutions like community engagement, which is what I agree with,

http://www.iwca.info/?p=10146

"The consequence of this is the division of the working class as the liberal left fawns over the ethnic minorities while barely concealing their contempt for the white working class. A contempt which once you examine the language used and the motivations behind it, is racist. The left long ago abandoned what was at best, an uneasy relationship with the British working class when it was judged that the class wasn’t overly enthusiastic about the political programme on offer. That breakdown of the relationship has over the decades, morphed into a despairing contempt for the British working class and the assumption that they are irredeemably reactionary and resistant to any attempts at enlightenment"

I also think you should look at the onelawforall campaign, details of an event below with lefites like Tatchell speaking. I mean in a lot of ways they share your goals, and I know many lefties support them too.

http://www.onelawforall.org.uk/

Date: Saturday 21 November 2009
Time: 1200-1400
Venue: North Carriage Drive, Hyde Park, London (Closest underground: Marble Arch)

SHOW YOUR OPPOSITION TO SHARIA LAW AND ALL RELIGIOUS-BASED TRIBUNALS IN BRITAIN, IRAN, IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN, PAKISTAN, SOMALIA AND ELSEWHERE
DEMAND AN END TO CULTURAL RELATIVISM AND RACISM
DEMAND ONE SECULAR LAW AND UNIVERSAL RIGHTS
DEFEND THE RIGHT TO ASYLUM FOR THOSE WHO HAVE FLED SHARIA

Confirmed Speakers include Nazanin Afshin-Jam, Mina Ahadi, Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, Roy Brown, AC Grayling, Rahila Gupta, Johann Hari, Marieme Helie-Lucas, Cllr Mehboob Khan, Houzan Mahmoud, Maryam Namazie, Taslima Nasrin, David Pollock, Fariborz Pooya, TerrySanderson, Selina aka Jus1Jam, Issam Shukri, Sohaila Sharifi, Bahram Soroush, Peter Tatchell… There will be a comedy act by Nick Doody and much more.

The Socialist pary is better than the SWP but would be tough work. http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/main/Home

Revolution, Workers Liberty, UAF, SWP are not going to even hear you out. revleft is mainly full of idiots, Urban75 is better.

You are best off putting out statements and by all means attempting to contract people and build bridges. I think it really all depends on whether EDL develops into an anti-muslim organization or an anti-extermism organization.
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First of all id like to say its great that you can come on here and have an open discussion, i take my hat off to you for having the balls to do so. Some good points there chris but just a few counter arguements.



You say there are not a lot of left wingers who are not against extremist muslims, if this is the case why are they constantly attacking a legitamate non political organisation for being 'nazi sympathisers'? I think the majority just dont understand what our message is. 'Racist' is a strong word and personally not something that I wish to be associated with, i think that i speak for the majority of the EDF who are tolerant, accepting people...

Secondly, you say that we should 'Tone down' the nationalist image and flying the England flag. It was this attitude that got this country to where its at now. Why should we be made to feel ashamed? and why is it that every time a flag is raised we are branded as racists?

Im not going to be made to feel ashamed to fly my countries flag. Especially not by some minority extremist muslim groups or sympathisers. Its time this country started waking up and realising that this is a real threat affecting us now, in every town and city across the land and we need to do something before its too late.


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Hi Chris,

Thanks for sticking your head in for a chat.
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I think that you are demonizing a minority rather than actually tackling extremism.

This is not correct and I'm afraid you appear to have swallowed the mixture of State and Socialist propaganda about the EDL in one bite. Coming here in person is a positive step towards redressing that balance.

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I am however glad you have a right to protest, even if I disagree with parts of the message you are putting across.

Good, we are equally clear about your right to protest.

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There are however known far-right extremist within the organization, and all too many who take the lazy and easy approach of reducing a complex situation to a simplistic dislike of all Muslims.

That is not the policy of the EDL as you know and the members of a group - particularly one that doesn't formally exist - do not always slavishly comply with that group's stated aims. You have identified the UAF as a prime example of this and will be unsurprised that I agree. The difference I believe is that the EDL are actively seeking out and jetisoning anyone that holds views that are entirely contradictory to our core message. The UAF is not pursuing such a policy and are skating very close to becoming the fascists they claim to oppose.

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Really I think it is a bit like after the Gun Powder plot when all Catholics got demonized, even though the overwhelmingly vast majority like everyone else just want to life a decent life, have a family, friends and enjoy themselves.

Heavily flawed analogy there, friend. Guy Fawkes didn't try to oppose Government policy by attacking the utterly innocent general population. Islamic extremists are doing exactly this and trying to excuse that kind of behaviour (not an accusation against you but certainly applicable to very many of your colleagues) is exactly what led us to where we are now.

As has been said by others we uncompromisingly oppose fascists of any description and their presence at our demonstrations is not to recruit but to discredit. You will find on this forum very recent evidence of their latest attempt at this and the response of EDL members. Swift and direct action was taken that I'd imagine many of your student comrades would shrink from like vampires from the sun. The point being that the EDL very much 'walk the walk' when it comes to standing by our philosophy of anti extremism. Hardly surprising when you realise we are what we say we are: Patriotic people with the best interests of our country at heart.

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Please try not to hate everyone that wrongly accuses you of that, as most are just well-meaning, but young, naive and worried the EDL will be manipulated into becoming some kind of fascist organization of the type our forefathers fought against..


Our numbers include many former servicemen (as the nazi's in London discovered) and - with respect to you and your friends - need no lecture on the danger of extreme regimes. Many of us have stood square against their forces on a two-way firing range so perhaps young students should keep that in mind before screaming 'fascist' at such men.

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I personally think the best way of tackling extremism is to have integrated communities, and to work with Muslim people to achieve this.

As do we, unfortunately the destructive policy of segregation which the Government calls multi culturalism has been institutionalised. It must be overturned before we can even start to fix the damage.

As for the rest I can't say I share your enthusiasm for socialism but I do understand it.

After all as Churchill once said: " If you aren't a liberal aged 20, you haven't got a heart, if you aren't a conservative aged 40, you haven't got a head."

;)
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southwales
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I can't believe this guy joined a counter protest, Nievely believed uaf lies that we are racist and nazi's. I hate nazi's just as much as I hate extremist muslims and radical communists which were at the counter demo. It makes me wonder how many of these so called "anti fascist" knew we were not actaul fascist, but opposed because we are patriot which is against there communist beliefs. Not that I am saying the tread starter is against are patriotic beliefs but a high percentage at the counter demo would of been.

Edited by southwales, Nov 2 2009, 04:36 PM.
If the Goverment had listened to the British and white working class concern about Islam in British and White working class communities than maybe the EDL would not of formed. All we want is a voice to express our opinions without being regarded a "racist" or "islamaphobe" but then again the goverment depends on devision in poor communities.

Freedom is not free.
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Paul81272
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Nice to have someone finally come on the forum and want a proper discussion. I dislike all religion and that is just my personal view but I do not feel inclined to protest about them even if their views are considered extreme, I believe very strongly in freedom of speech and freedom of expression. The difference is when a Jew, Sikh or Hindu disagrees with me, my beliefs or the behaviour of our democratically elected government, he doesn’t fly passenger planes into big city buildings in the USA or blow themselves up on tube trains etc.

People are afraid of Islam because of the things we see, read and hear about it, atrocities carried out in the name of Islam. The public voice of Islam (always one of protest and never one of outrage at the atrocities carried out in the name of Islam) needs to be addressed by Muslims.
Unfortunately whenever we see/read/hear “Islam” it’s always some poor sod getting blown up, mistreated or oppressed.

The illusive “Moderate Muslim” needs to make themselves heard and understood before his religion and culture is completely hijacked by the bearded crackpots who claim to represent his religion, if they choose to sit back and allow themselves to be represented in such a fashion then they will reap the benefits which will not be good ones.

If our government were hard on the extremists I am sure we would not be so fearful of Islam, they choose to live in our country because they like the freedom but there is a vocal minority who would do away with these freedoms and introduce shariah law to oppress, non believers, women, homosexuals, freedom of speech and religious tolerance.

“Moderate Muslims” need to address the problem at hand
Islam is not a religion it’s a f**king cult, I am still waiting for David Koresh to appear!!
This is my opinion and does not reflect the opinion of the EDL.
The EDL is ONLY opposed to Islamic Extremism
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I thought I should throw this in here...

The same day the UAF was chanting "Fascist Scum!" at us in Leeds, the EDL group, in London, was under attack (physical violence) from Nazi's.

If any UAF member's are reading this, please stop chanting those ridiculous words towards the EDL, and go and hunt down some real Nazi's.

The more you label us as "Nazi's", the more the Nazi's will think it's OK to join our organisation: You are causing the effect by trying to prevent it; with your words.
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charlie
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Hi Chris you seem a intelligent person but cant believe you was so gullible to believe the media and far-left lies we are a group of Nazi racist bigots . I took part in the protest in Leeds and there was Black,Asian, Jews all moving freely amongst us not any of them had any racist slier put on them.

Yes the extremist muslim might seem a small number . But what is the real count there not all like chaudary who openly shows his hand but many are hidden in the muslim communities and are allowed to do so without challenge. This position has been in the muslim communities since the 1980 s allowed to fester and grow to the point we have now. Take for instance young muslim men going training in afgan terrorist camps .I cant believe the muslim community was not aware of this seeing what a close nit community they are . They have imrans that preach hatred and say go and join you umma in the struggle of Islam whether it be in Palestine chechen or any other place they think Islam is under attack . The young lads see the west has the problem and decide to put a bomb on and kill innocent . This is all born from the muslim communities . But now its open and on there door step they dont like it and say were against muslims they like to cry there lot when they are the problem .
Edited by charlie, Nov 2 2009, 06:24 PM.
A WAY OUT FOR YOU NAZI SCUM THATS INFILTRATED THE EDL
http://www.stormfront.org/
http://www.uaf.org.uk/
http://www.islam4uk.com/
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I have just finished reading this full thread, and most of the points have already been addressed.

I would just like to say, Chris, that I welcome you quite happily. I am very much in favour of REAL anti-fascism, ie not the hounding of legal political parties and people exercising their right to a protest.

Now, as far as your point on integration and all the rest of it. It's been tried, it hasn't worked. Why keep trying to flog a dead horse.

These protests MUST continue. I would very much like to see real muslims attending our protests, indeed I have invited many muslims all around the internet and have even asked them to bring with them and fly proudly the flag of islam to fly alongside the St George Cross etc. No luck yet, but hopefully we'll see some at future demos.

In Leeds I spoke (sorry guys) to some of the roughest looking types of guys, the sort that look like they eat a 'paki' for breakfast. And do you know they were intelligent, articulate chaps with a real sense of right and wrong and not a racist bone in their bodies. I have yet to meet a racist person within EDL.

I have said from the very beginning of my finding out the true nature of the EDL that I believe the UAF should be marching alongside us. These islamofascists have been hiding behind the muslim religion for too long. They have been allowed to get away with it by playing the 'race' card. Well no more.
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I would like to say instead of suggesting what we do suggest to your UAF/SWP friends how to conduct themselves,they are the real facists,they are ones determind to cause divisions,they are the ones wanting confrontation.As for get muslims,working with working clases etc,ok so i send my daughter along,the muslim lads start chatting her up,before you know they are passing her round like a piece of meat as they hold western women with such little regard.Its not us who need educated but the uaf/swp/antifa and the muslim community who "WILL NOT" make any attempt to intergrate.For the record im not racist and have many none white friends.PS,EDL members do not be taken in by him,he and his kind know we are riding the crest of wave,they thought they would smash us(their words not mine),they thought as soon as the footy season started the EDL would fold(their words not mine),They thought by branding us nazis joe public would turn against us,that didnt happen.They thought by getting thousands of UAF/SWP/ANTIFA on the streets would deter us,again it didnt,They though whippping the muslim youth uo into a frnzy in brum so they would attack us would cause us to fight back,make look bad in the media and we would loose public support,this also didnt happen.We are the EDL,we do what we do "peacful protest"(unlike UAF/SWP/ANTIFA) not what some lefty uaf supporter suggests.We are not raist,we are against radical islam and sharia law being thrust upon us,cleaning gardens with muslims youths aint gona stop either of the above ffs.
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AgeofEnlightenment
Nov 2 2009, 02:12 PM
chri91
Nov 2 2009, 02:09 PM
Polious
Nov 2 2009, 01:56 PM
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I personally think the best way of tackling extremism is to have integrated communities, and to work with Muslim people to achieve this. You probably think i’m a woolly liberal though! I have an idea of community actions groups, just ordinary working folk getting together to improve their community. Getting young Muslims lads, working alongside our own working class lads to clean up litter, help out old folk with odd jobs, start football teams etc. Build a sense of community that has been lost in this country, due to hatred, misunderstanding , television, consumerism, supermarkets and big business


Its a bit difficult when the goverment encourages communities to adopt the doctrine of apartheid.Things will change when Muslims see themsleves and others as human beings rather than classifying people by their religous beliefs.We are the kuffar,the none believers,and they will always hold us in contempt and have no wish to integrate with us.

The best policy is one of tolerance.If they leave us alone we will leave them alone.
It's tricky, but not all Muslims see it in those black and white terms of believer or non-believer. I worked with a Muslim lady for years and she always saw the basics of being a human came first.

Even if some Muslim's to think you a non-believer, that doesn't mean they won't treat you like a human being too. Although of course there were the crusades, for many years Christians, Muslims and Jews lived together and tried to build a Jerusalem that was tolerant of each other. That’s what we need to do in England, build a new Jerusalem. We need to show that despite extremism we take the moral high ground. Extend a hand to those that want to live with our shared values, as well as condemning those who don’t.
I have to stop you there.

What we need to do is not make another Jerusalem; too many bloody wars have been fought over that city and frankly we don't need that in England.

We need to uphold secular and democratic values, and bring back freedom of speech for all.
We dont need to build a new anything,this is brittain and should stay as such,it should be full of proud patriots that are not afraid to show their patriosim ,many dont for fear of being branded racist.Brittain to be as it was, a proud nation and a beacon ofr the rest of the world to follow,this is not racist.The people who come here should change not the country to suit them,i cant beilieve anyone is actually buying this left wing crap this guy is spouting,its his kind and his views thats got us into this mess,make no mistake about that.
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AgeofEnlightenment
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By left wing crap, do you mean me or the poster of the thread?
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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AgeofEnlightenment
Nov 2 2009, 07:50 PM
By left wing crap, do you mean me or the poster of the thread?
Not you the guy who started the thread.
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AgeofEnlightenment
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Well in that case you should can it, because some of us here are getting a little tired of the lefty/UAF dismissal that is occuring on these forums. You wouldn't like it if someone dismissed you as a racist or right winger, likewise don't do the same back; if you have a problem with his views then debate them properly.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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AgeofEnlightenment
Nov 2 2009, 08:06 PM
Well in that case you should can it, because some of us here are getting a little tired of the lefty/UAF dismissal that is occuring on these forums. You wouldn't like it if someone dismissed you as a racist or right winger, likewise don't do the same back; if you have a problem with his views then debate them properly.
Why should i can it?Its a forum or do you decide who should post on here?He has admitted he is left wing,he has even suggested we tone down our patriotism(Its this crap thats got us a country into this mess),this amongst other things highly offends me.
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AgeofEnlightenment
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While I know he is left, you said he was spewing leftist crap which is a unfair dismissal of all of his points.

You wouldn't appreciate it if you put the effort into making a long post like that only to be cut down in short paragraph or so that you're a right winger.

Telling people to done down their patriotism is not the same as removing it completely, or condeming it outright. I do not have a problem with you posting, just saying you should lighten up on the throwing around of labels, and if you have a problem then debate the points at hand.
Edited by AgeofEnlightenment, Nov 2 2009, 08:15 PM.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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We all have the right to be wrong ;)
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AgeofEnlightenment
Nov 2 2009, 08:14 PM
While I know he is left, you said he was spewing leftist crap which is a unfair dismissal of all of his points.

You wouldn't appreciate it if you put the effort into making a long post like that only to be cut down in short paragraph or so that you're a right winger.

Telling people to done down their patriotism is not the same as removing it completely, or condeming it outright. I do not have a problem with you posting, just saying you should lighten up on the throwing around of labels, and if you have a problem then debate the points at hand.
Fair enough,I do dissagree with some of what youve just said but arguing amongst ourselves is counter productive.One thing i will say is our way of life is at stake and as such emotions run high and this is often reflected in posts.
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AgeofEnlightenment
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That is true DFW, and while I agree that it's good to have a sense of pride or patriotism in your home culture; taking it to an extreme extent or blindl nationalism is what leads to totalitarianism.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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FreedomFry
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DFW
Nov 2 2009, 08:09 PM
AgeofEnlightenment
Nov 2 2009, 08:06 PM
Well in that case you should can it, because some of us here are getting a little tired of the lefty/UAF dismissal that is occuring on these forums. You wouldn't like it if someone dismissed you as a racist or right winger, likewise don't do the same back; if you have a problem with his views then debate them properly.
Why should i can it?Its a forum or do you decide who should post on here?He has admitted he is left wing,he has even suggested we tone down our patriotism(Its this crap thats got us a country into this mess),this amongst other things highly offends me.
just wanted to point out that as a mod he does decide who should post on here.

that said i definitely have a problem with the advice to "tone down the english nationalism" (which is what he actually said) and will respond more fully when i get the chance
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Its funny how the left wing scumbags are now wanting to have a good old intelligent debate,now they realise we we have the numbers and wont/cant be bullied by traitors,just because we dont agree with their commie s**t were nazis.Seems like they have lost the will to see us on the streets,ffs they rant about no platform for racists like EDL lol but now want to be nice about it but the prob is I fukin dont and never will,not until they apologise for all the lies and s**t they caused
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