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Creating an Academic Debate; Being given a voice
Topic Started: Nov 1 2009, 12:51 AM (539 Views)
Leodis
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Hello all,

I'm a recent mature student graduate from the University of Leeds. I studied Sociology and Social Policy, so looked at the issues of race, racism, and social movements. During my time there, discussions about the far right and other nationalistic topics would often occur in tutorials, given the fact we were talking about society.

I would always argue that everybody should be allowed a platform to air their views. Others would agree, some obviously did not; mainly, because of the racist element of certain far right groups.

The rise of the EDL at this early stage needs to attract greater discussion from our academic establishments, those who especially employ middle to upper class kids, like the University of Leeds, who often support the left because of their often narrow view of working class areas and politics.

I believe the EDL is a non racist organisation, the second it is not I will not support.

I should get to my point before I start rambling.

Earlier this year at the University of Leeds, Cass Pennant was invited to give a talk on hooliganism and his life.

The EDL should follow this example not to sell their story or merchandise like Cass, but to have an academic debate, believe me when I say Universities will not discuss the issue of Islamification or the growth in Islamic Extremism in the UK.

They are more than prepared to discuss the growth in popularity for the BNP, it is obviously easy to stick the label of racist to this political entity.

The EDL at this moment is being quite successfully tared with the same brush. We need more exposure, more academic thought, discussion and opinion.

The tactic of non-violence and non racism is making a small impact with the authorities, we need others on our side the ones with leather patches on there elbows and wishy washy hair.

The middle class kids will never see an alliance with a white working class, not since the days of the Chartist movements, which ended because the land owners been given more rights, the middle classes sold us out.

Like the Workers Party and the Socialist Parties after them, I have never seen them in the estates of Leeds trying to help the working classes out. Marx would be pissing himself laughing if he saw who represented his ideas of socialism and revolution.

I know the EDL at this time is not political, but I would certainly wish to meet those who are part of the EDL, who wish to get political, and raise a debate and political movement in our society.

Sorry its a bit of a rant, but a few ideas to ponder, 'academic debate', 'working class solidarity', 'fight against the middle class socialist', 'political mandate for the EDL' or 'its political wing'.
Attached to this post:
Attachments: chartist.jpg (66.74 KB)
Edited by Leodis, Nov 1 2009, 01:13 AM.
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Leodis
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Have a look at the JPEG posted in my post above, read it and look at the similarities, this is a poster from the 1800's, we the EDL should follow the example of the early Chartist. Read the history of this working class political movement, and you will be reading what is happening today in terms of getting the EDL recognised, as a legitimate pressure group.
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Deleted User
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EDL are not political and don`t intend to be.
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Leodis
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MJ999
Nov 1 2009, 01:12 AM
EDL are not political and don`t intend to be.
I fully understand that, and by that I mean I accept that and don't wish to change that.

However, the views of the supporters of the EDL are represented where politically? The Labour Party, The Tories, The Greens, or the BNP.

Without a political front, you have no front. Otherwise is a day out for what, who are you pressuring to make a difference if your not politically motivated?
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Deleted User
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Whatever party is in power, we want Muslim Extremists off our streets...simple as that.
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Leodis
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MJ999
Nov 1 2009, 01:18 AM
Whatever party is in power, we want Muslim Extremists off our streets...simple as that.
When do you think they will start listening and taking action in terms of the EDL's request?
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Deleted User
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You have some cracking debates, some worthy of further debates, but you missed one thing, the pure patriotism of the real people.
While debate might be good for the soul, debate is lost if taken away before its time!
To combat the terror we now face, someone has to oppose it. Step up the EDL. For not too oppose it would leave you with no debate at all... Just corpses!

Take your pick?
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Leodis
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HoopsOfEssex
Nov 1 2009, 01:20 AM
You have some cracking debates, some worthy of further debates, but you missed one thing, the pure patriotism of the real people.
While debate might be good for the soul, debate is lost if taken away before its time!
To combat the terror we now face, someone has to oppose it. Step up the EDL. For not too oppose it would leave you with no debate at all... Just corpses!

Take your pick?
I certainly like what your saying, and thank you for your support in debate. But and correct me if I'm wrong, yours is a call to arms, not non-violent protest. Whatever 'OUR' aims it should always political. It is what governs this free land of ours, anything other is not where 'WE' want to be.
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Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 01:20 AM
MJ999
Nov 1 2009, 01:18 AM
Whatever party is in power, we want Muslim Extremists off our streets...simple as that.
When do you think they will start listening and taking action in terms of the EDL's request?
When our numbers swell. They may even realise one day that it is not the EDL attacking our police. We will continue to demo peacefully, and our numbers will just get bigger.

1. If there is no counter demo that is going to attack us physically on the day - the police can half their numbers.
2. You must have seen what the UAF were like at the BBC studios two weeks ago? Attacking the police?
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Athiest
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MJ999
Nov 1 2009, 01:18 AM
Whatever party is in power, we want Muslim Extremists off our streets...simple as that.
I agree with that, EDL can only succeed as a pressure group at the moment, any attempt to go to politics or organisation and it would be shut down immediatley.

As soon as it went into a deabating society, memberships, chairman and speakers would be nominated, it would be a bad move, and also more importantly an excuse to have it legally removed/disbanded.
Firmitas et Fortitudo
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Leodis
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MJ999
Nov 1 2009, 01:28 AM
Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 01:20 AM
MJ999
Nov 1 2009, 01:18 AM
Whatever party is in power, we want Muslim Extremists off our streets...simple as that.
When do you think they will start listening and taking action in terms of the EDL's request?
When our numbers swell. They may even realise one day that it is not the EDL attacking our police. We will continue to demo peacefully, and our numbers will just get bigger.

1. If there is no counter demo that is going to attack us physically on the day - the police can half their numbers.
2. You must have seen what the UAF were like at the BBC studios two weeks ago? Attacking the police?
I have seen the UAF at close hand, at the University of Leeds, and met members or lets say students who support such organisations, like the UAF, the Workers Party and the Socialist Party. Sadly for them, they are unwilling to listen to any debate that contradicts thiers.

They are more often than not, young middle to upper class students who are doing the thing that is the most fashionable thing to do while they are doing thier degress, it is often an un-educated rebellion against thier upbringing. The core UAF, beleive themselves to be socialist, but rarely understand the meaning of the word.

Karl Marx, who wished for a working class rebellion, was not talking about these middle and upper class fools. They are very obviously stupid and unknowing of the real world, when they would rather stand up against the EDL and not the muslim fundamentalist who are plainly saying what they desire to do.

I have read much about Social Movements, the divide and conquer rule of engagement by our political elite, this is why I'm wanting a political stake.
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bk4theuk
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I can see both of the views from leodis and the other EDL members. But i do think when refering to politics your entering a minefield. The EDL is based on normal rational people who oppose and will continue to oppose muslim extremists in our country. If the government don't hear us yet, they soon will, as the EDL grows in numbers so will the protests needed in order to make our government listen. Whoever that government may be.
Whatever the future might bring about for EDL we really don't want to run before we can walk.
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Leodis
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bk4theuk
Nov 1 2009, 01:47 AM
I can see both of the views from leodis and the other EDL members. But i do think when refering to politics your entering a minefield. The EDL is based on normal rational people who oppose and will continue to oppose muslim extremists in our country. If the government don't hear us yet, they soon will, as the EDL grows in numbers so will the protests needed in order to make our government listen. Whoever that government may be.
Whatever the future might bring about for EDL we really don't want to run before we can walk.
Certainly, a balanced approach, and I agree with what you say completely.

Politics, or should I say good political foundations always start small. It requires just a few men and women to sit down regularly and have common goals. The EDL might not want that debate yet, but others might, who are members of the EDL, but have political agendas, not for the EDL, but for themselves and their future. That is where I stand, I am looking for answers I suppose, and marching does not give me them answers uniforately.

Touting and networking is my main aim here. Just for those who once in a while would like to get together and discuss political matters of our society today. It might mean supporting other political entities, or none at all.

But for me, a supporter of the causes that is the EDL's agenda, I seek other means of activism, and sometimes this is just intellectual debate, and discussion as I am having with you guys now.
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Deleted User
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EDL could never become a pollitical party, for one it would be banned for having a uniform (EDL polos).

Debate is great, but the way the EDL is shouldn't be changed because as each demo goes by its becoming bigger and bigger, until its big enough to pressure whichever pollitical party to do something about the problem.
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Why the fascination with politics?
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Leodis
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MJ999
Nov 1 2009, 01:58 AM
Why the fascination with politics?
Its the only place power exist, power (political) is the only tool by which you can enforce change.
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Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 02:01 AM
MJ999
Nov 1 2009, 01:58 AM
Why the fascination with politics?
Its the only place power exist, power (political) is the only tool by which you can enforce change.
personally don`t agree. I don`t do politics - so I will let the others debate with you.
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Leodis
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Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 02:01 AM
MJ999
Nov 1 2009, 01:58 AM
Why the fascination with politics?
Its the only place power exist, power (political) is the only tool by which you can enforce change.
Bear in mind the Muslim Fundamentalist agnda for Political Power, how willthey achieve this, by having majorities in towns, city's boroughs and councils and chambers across the UK.
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Leodis
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MJ999
Nov 1 2009, 02:02 AM
Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 02:01 AM
MJ999
Nov 1 2009, 01:58 AM
Why the fascination with politics?
Its the only place power exist, power (political) is the only tool by which you can enforce change.
personally don`t agree. I don`t do politics - so I will let the others debate with you.
Massive thanks for joining and inputting on this debate though.

Cheers mate
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bk4theuk
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MJ999
Nov 1 2009, 01:58 AM
Why the fascination with politics?
Unfortunately it governs the society by which we live, a little to complex for my liking though! Keep it simple and it's easier to stay on the right track. IMO.
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Leodis
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bk4theuk
Nov 1 2009, 02:05 AM
MJ999
Nov 1 2009, 01:58 AM
Why the fascination with politics?
Unfortunately it governs the society by which we live, a little to complex for my liking though! Keep it simple and it's easier to stay on the right track. IMO.
Unfortnately politics is not simple which we all agree on. For me though it is the place where change can be created, whether it is pressuring it - like the EDL is through growing support and activism. Or like I suggest by getting in those halls of power and being part of the machine which controls us.

I am not suggesting in any way what the EDL is doing does not create change, however, the road which you suggest is simpler is frought with being held at the will of the powers that be, Goverment, Media, Police, Councils, and Academia. It is harder for these controllers of power to attack your truths if your sat right next to them.
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bk4theuk
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Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 02:11 AM
bk4theuk
Nov 1 2009, 02:05 AM
MJ999
Nov 1 2009, 01:58 AM
Why the fascination with politics?
Unfortunately it governs the society by which we live, a little to complex for my liking though! Keep it simple and it's easier to stay on the right track. IMO.
Unfortnately politics is not simple which we all agree on. For me though it is the place where change can be created, whether it is pressuring it - like the EDL is through growing support and activism. Or like I suggest by getting in those halls of power and being part of the machine which controls us.

I am not suggesting in any way what the EDL is doing does not create change, however, the road which you suggest is simpler is frought with being held at the will of the powers that be, Goverment, Media, Police, Councils, and Academia. It is harder for these controllers of power to attack your truths if your sat right next to them.
I do feel there is a gap in the political market for another political party. One that is prepared to stand up against extremism but there are so many other issues that political parties need to deal with. It becomes far more complex than I understand. As any new party will clearly be an underdog, this would be a long, slow road to obtain the amount of support needed to get anywhere near the top of the political ladder. Good luck if you find anyone in a position to fill this gap.
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Leodis
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bk4theuk
Nov 1 2009, 02:20 AM
Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 02:11 AM
bk4theuk
Nov 1 2009, 02:05 AM
MJ999
Nov 1 2009, 01:58 AM
Why the fascination with politics?
Unfortunately it governs the society by which we live, a little to complex for my liking though! Keep it simple and it's easier to stay on the right track. IMO.
Unfortnately politics is not simple which we all agree on. For me though it is the place where change can be created, whether it is pressuring it - like the EDL is through growing support and activism. Or like I suggest by getting in those halls of power and being part of the machine which controls us.

I am not suggesting in any way what the EDL is doing does not create change, however, the road which you suggest is simpler is frought with being held at the will of the powers that be, Goverment, Media, Police, Councils, and Academia. It is harder for these controllers of power to attack your truths if your sat right next to them.
I do feel there is a gap in the political market for another political party. One that is prepared to stand up against extremism but there are so many other issues that political parties need to deal with. It becomes far more complex than I understand. As any new party will clearly be an underdog, this would be a long, slow road to obtain the amount of support needed to get anywhere near the top of the political ladder. Good luck if you find anyone in a position to fill this gap.
The quickest way for me would be to find a party that strikes a cord with all the non-racist who voted for the BNP, clearly have ethnic groups as equal members, Black, Brown, Mixed Race, Oriental, Arab, and White sharing an equal platform that demands equality in our society, real equality. By that it means we are all equal in our great and pleasent land. We do not need policies of positive discrimination, or where public money goes to what ever politically correct pressure group is the strongest. Kids in work, or education, not on drugs and street corners with f**k all to do. Pensioners guarenteed a decent pension. Protecting Jobs, and citizens.

Get the policies right for those few topics, and stick to local politics - not national, it would not belong before you had a working political party.
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bk4theuk
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Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 02:27 AM
bk4theuk
Nov 1 2009, 02:20 AM
Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 02:11 AM
bk4theuk
Nov 1 2009, 02:05 AM
MJ999
Nov 1 2009, 01:58 AM
Why the fascination with politics?
Unfortunately it governs the society by which we live, a little to complex for my liking though! Keep it simple and it's easier to stay on the right track. IMO.
Unfortnately politics is not simple which we all agree on. For me though it is the place where change can be created, whether it is pressuring it - like the EDL is through growing support and activism. Or like I suggest by getting in those halls of power and being part of the machine which controls us.

I am not suggesting in any way what the EDL is doing does not create change, however, the road which you suggest is simpler is frought with being held at the will of the powers that be, Goverment, Media, Police, Councils, and Academia. It is harder for these controllers of power to attack your truths if your sat right next to them.
I do feel there is a gap in the political market for another political party. One that is prepared to stand up against extremism but there are so many other issues that political parties need to deal with. It becomes far more complex than I understand. As any new party will clearly be an underdog, this would be a long, slow road to obtain the amount of support needed to get anywhere near the top of the political ladder. Good luck if you find anyone in a position to fill this gap.
The quickest way for me would be to find a party that strikes a cord with all the non-racist who voted for the BNP, clearly have ethnic groups as equal members, Black, Brown, Mixed Race, Oriental, Arab, and White sharing an equal platform that demands equality in our society, real equality. By that it means we are all equal in our great and pleasent land. We do not need policies of positive discrimination, or where public money goes to what ever politically correct pressure group is the strongest. Kids in work, or education, not on drugs and street corners with f**k all to do. Pensioners guarenteed a decent pension. Protecting Jobs, and citizens.

Get the policies right for those few topics, and stick to local politics - not national, it would not belong before you had a working political party.
I think you could be along the right road. I just wouldn't have a clue where to start, but I do know that you would need a lot of financial help or backing.
I really don't think the EDL are going to end up a political party. I might be proven wrong but I would be surprised if they did.
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bk4theuk
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Leodis, I have just come across this topic started by Sir Matter on Oct 28 2009, 10:44 AM Post #1

I have looked at all the other parties and the English Radical Alliance look the closest party to the EDL. There policies look more or less what we are fighting for and i think they are the only alternative to the BNP or UKIP.They are only a small party at the moment but so was the BNP and UKIP once till people joined them. The EDL was smal once but now look at us. I reckon they are the party a lot of us have been looking for and will get a lot of support from labour and people that have voted or were thinking of voting BNP. Lets support the EDL on the streets and get behind this party in elections. They will get my £12 membership. There website is

http://www.englishradicals.com/

I have never heard of this party before but I will take a look at them now. I haven't voted for years as I didn't know which way to turn and was becoming so desperate I was willing to give the BNP my vote, and no I'm not racist! This may solve my problem.
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redfox
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Leodis, you're obviously a very bright bloke, much more politically on the ball than I. I'm fairly politically disinterested, and in practical terms haven't the time to get actively involved. I do, however, like to discuss ideas.
I was in Leeds today and had huge problems explaining the complexity of the situation to my 11 year old. 'Well love, the EDL are against islamic terrorism. And the UAF are against the EDL.' ' So, daddy, the UAF are for terrorism?' ' Er, well, love....' Yes, confused myself. Two ostensibly anti fascist groups, opposing one another. The UAF were going on about the BNP. Er, what's that got to do with the EDL? I know nowt about the EDL at the moment, but even I can see massive differences between them and the BNP. So are the UAF just plain confused? What's your take?
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Leodis
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bk4theuk
Nov 1 2009, 02:38 AM
Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 02:27 AM
bk4theuk
Nov 1 2009, 02:20 AM
Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 02:11 AM
bk4theuk
Nov 1 2009, 02:05 AM
MJ999
Nov 1 2009, 01:58 AM
Why the fascination with politics?
Unfortunately it governs the society by which we live, a little to complex for my liking though! Keep it simple and it's easier to stay on the right track. IMO.
Unfortnately politics is not simple which we all agree on. For me though it is the place where change can be created, whether it is pressuring it - like the EDL is through growing support and activism. Or like I suggest by getting in those halls of power and being part of the machine which controls us.

I am not suggesting in any way what the EDL is doing does not create change, however, the road which you suggest is simpler is frought with being held at the will of the powers that be, Goverment, Media, Police, Councils, and Academia. It is harder for these controllers of power to attack your truths if your sat right next to them.
I do feel there is a gap in the political market for another political party. One that is prepared to stand up against extremism but there are so many other issues that political parties need to deal with. It becomes far more complex than I understand. As any new party will clearly be an underdog, this would be a long, slow road to obtain the amount of support needed to get anywhere near the top of the political ladder. Good luck if you find anyone in a position to fill this gap.
The quickest way for me would be to find a party that strikes a cord with all the non-racist who voted for the BNP, clearly have ethnic groups as equal members, Black, Brown, Mixed Race, Oriental, Arab, and White sharing an equal platform that demands equality in our society, real equality. By that it means we are all equal in our great and pleasent land. We do not need policies of positive discrimination, or where public money goes to what ever politically correct pressure group is the strongest. Kids in work, or education, not on drugs and street corners with f**k all to do. Pensioners guarenteed a decent pension. Protecting Jobs, and citizens.

Get the policies right for those few topics, and stick to local politics - not national, it would not belong before you had a working political party.
I think you could be along the right road. I just wouldn't have a clue where to start, but I do know that you would need a lot of financial help or backing.
I really don't think the EDL are going to end up a political party. I might be proven wrong but I would be surprised if they did.
The question, whether the EDL would become a political party is a difficult one, a number of factors need to be considered - firstly, would it stand for English Independence? If Scotland went independent - it would certainly be an interesting factor.

However, my argument would be this - it is not whether the EDL becomes a political entity - it is whether a political entity can be created out of it?

What is important to say here - is it would not mean a split, it would just mean the political creation of a party would be born from the EDL and its support, and therefore, in some way bedfellows or brothers if you like.

Financially - one only has to look at those who want change, they are many people who would support such change financially, besides, there is already a ground swell of the need for change. A new political party would swallow that need and create more support for it. Such as stealing the BNP vote, the English Democratic Vote, the UK Independence vote and any other parties vote that the public feel is not answering their call for change.

The fact also the party would hopefully meet the needs of all races and ethnicities who are proud of the land they live in would also create an interesting fight against the far right, and the centre left and far left parties.

All that is required is the same as any other party in existence - the will, and they want to create change.
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AgeofEnlightenment
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Kafir
Politics is not the most powerful platform for change, social infrastructure like the media outlets and education facilities are the most powerful.

They shape young minds, tomorrow's next best and brightest, and also inform us of current events politically.

Control the flow of information, and you can control anything. Information is power.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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Leodis
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bk4theuk
Nov 1 2009, 02:51 AM
Leodis, I have just come across this topic started by Sir Matter on Oct 28 2009, 10:44 AM Post #1

I have looked at all the other parties and the English Radical Alliance look the closest party to the EDL. There policies look more or less what we are fighting for and i think they are the only alternative to the BNP or UKIP.They are only a small party at the moment but so was the BNP and UKIP once till people joined them. The EDL was smal once but now look at us. I reckon they are the party a lot of us have been looking for and will get a lot of support from labour and people that have voted or were thinking of voting BNP. Lets support the EDL on the streets and get behind this party in elections. They will get my £12 membership. There website is

http://www.englishradicals.com/

I have never heard of this party before but I will take a look at them now. I haven't voted for years as I didn't know which way to turn and was becoming so desperate I was willing to give the BNP my vote, and no I'm not racist! This may solve my problem.
I will certainly look at what you have posted with a great deal of interest.

One can still be active with the EDL, but as long as one is able to supply a tick at the polling station on election day is equally important.

Great find though mate, lets see what the radicals offer!
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bk4theuk
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Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 03:00 AM
bk4theuk
Nov 1 2009, 02:51 AM
Leodis, I have just come across this topic started by Sir Matter on Oct 28 2009, 10:44 AM Post #1

I have looked at all the other parties and the English Radical Alliance look the closest party to the EDL. There policies look more or less what we are fighting for and i think they are the only alternative to the BNP or UKIP.They are only a small party at the moment but so was the BNP and UKIP once till people joined them. The EDL was smal once but now look at us. I reckon they are the party a lot of us have been looking for and will get a lot of support from labour and people that have voted or were thinking of voting BNP. Lets support the EDL on the streets and get behind this party in elections. They will get my £12 membership. There website is

http://www.englishradicals.com/

I have never heard of this party before but I will take a look at them now. I haven't voted for years as I didn't know which way to turn and was becoming so desperate I was willing to give the BNP my vote, and no I'm not racist! This may solve my problem.
I will certainly look at what you have posted with a great deal of interest.

One can still be active with the EDL, but as long as one is able to supply a tick at the polling station on election day is equally important.

Great find though mate, lets see what the radicals offer!
I'm trying to find how to link this original post with its original forum. Any help anyone?

I do hope it is a great find Leodis!
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Leodis
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redfox
Nov 1 2009, 02:52 AM
Leodis, you're obviously a very bright bloke, much more politically on the ball than I. I'm fairly politically disinterested, and in practical terms haven't the time to get actively involved. I do, however, like to discuss ideas.
I was in Leeds today and had huge problems explaining the complexity of the situation to my 11 year old. 'Well love, the EDL are against islamic terrorism. And the UAF are against the EDL.' ' So, daddy, the UAF are for terrorism?' ' Er, well, love....' Yes, confused myself. Two ostensibly anti fascist groups, opposing one another. The UAF were going on about the BNP. Er, what's that got to do with the EDL? I know nowt about the EDL at the moment, but even I can see massive differences between them and the BNP. So are the UAF just plain confused? What's your take?
I'm a big believer in that a childs awareness is always greater than the adults because of their young minds they are burdened with the crap that we are often burdened with. He will find his own answers with your help of course. Been truthful is the only way I think with a child, at first there will be confusion, but eventually they make their own judgements hopefully. I would not worry too much about what your child knows or thinks just yet.

The UAF are politically motivated far left socialists - who believe in standing only for minority groups. However, they exclude what they see as the hemogenic groups - meaning anything to do with white, or the group that holds most of the power (in Europe this group is white) regardless of it being non-racist. They see white as the power that controls them, even though it controls us too.

Most of all they are educated people, but don't forget educated does not always mean clever or aware.

The people I have met from University - certainly look down on the working classes, I have to be careful not to make grand generalisations but it as often been the case. For many in particular the young UAF and Socialist - it is a fashion statement, a rite of passage if you like.
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bk4theuk
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Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 03:10 AM
redfox
Nov 1 2009, 02:52 AM
Leodis, you're obviously a very bright bloke, much more politically on the ball than I. I'm fairly politically disinterested, and in practical terms haven't the time to get actively involved. I do, however, like to discuss ideas.
I was in Leeds today and had huge problems explaining the complexity of the situation to my 11 year old. 'Well love, the EDL are against islamic terrorism. And the UAF are against the EDL.' ' So, daddy, the UAF are for terrorism?' ' Er, well, love....' Yes, confused myself. Two ostensibly anti fascist groups, opposing one another. The UAF were going on about the BNP. Er, what's that got to do with the EDL? I know nowt about the EDL at the moment, but even I can see massive differences between them and the BNP. So are the UAF just plain confused? What's your take?
I'm a big believer in that a childs awareness is always greater than the adults because of their young minds they are burdened with the crap that we are often burdened with. He will find his own answers with your help of course. Been truthful is the only way I think with a child, at first there will be confusion, but eventually they make their own judgements hopefully. I would not worry too much about what your child knows or thinks just yet.

The UAF are politically motivated far left socialists - who believe in standing only for minority groups. However, they exclude what they see as the hemogenic groups - meaning anything to do with white, or the group that holds most of the power (in Europe this group is white) regardless of it being non-racist. They see white as the power that controls them, even though it controls us too.

Most of all they are educated people, but don't forget educated does not always mean clever or aware.

The people I have met from University - certainly look down on the working classes, I have to be careful not to make grand generalisations but it as often been the case. For many in particular the young UAF and Socialist - it is a fashion statement, a rite of passage if you like.
An interesting reply, I think you summed the UAF up nicely.
I can relate to what redfox said regarding explaining to children about all the different groups. I also have an 11 year old and a 14 year old. They are well aware what's going on and now understand who's who. They even make valid comments on all this extremism which I couldn't put better myself. I don't believe in keeping kids in the dark leading a sheltered life will not help them into adulthood.
Been great talking with you, but I really need to head off we've got 2 football matches to attend tomorrow, the fun of having 2 boys. Early kick offs too!! Night.
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Leodis
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bk4theuk
Nov 1 2009, 03:35 AM
Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 03:10 AM
redfox
Nov 1 2009, 02:52 AM
Leodis, you're obviously a very bright bloke, much more politically on the ball than I. I'm fairly politically disinterested, and in practical terms haven't the time to get actively involved. I do, however, like to discuss ideas.
I was in Leeds today and had huge problems explaining the complexity of the situation to my 11 year old. 'Well love, the EDL are against islamic terrorism. And the UAF are against the EDL.' ' So, daddy, the UAF are for terrorism?' ' Er, well, love....' Yes, confused myself. Two ostensibly anti fascist groups, opposing one another. The UAF were going on about the BNP. Er, what's that got to do with the EDL? I know nowt about the EDL at the moment, but even I can see massive differences between them and the BNP. So are the UAF just plain confused? What's your take?
I'm a big believer in that a childs awareness is always greater than the adults because of their young minds they are burdened with the crap that we are often burdened with. He will find his own answers with your help of course. Been truthful is the only way I think with a child, at first there will be confusion, but eventually they make their own judgements hopefully. I would not worry too much about what your child knows or thinks just yet.

The UAF are politically motivated far left socialists - who believe in standing only for minority groups. However, they exclude what they see as the hemogenic groups - meaning anything to do with white, or the group that holds most of the power (in Europe this group is white) regardless of it being non-racist. They see white as the power that controls them, even though it controls us too.

Most of all they are educated people, but don't forget educated does not always mean clever or aware.

The people I have met from University - certainly look down on the working classes, I have to be careful not to make grand generalisations but it as often been the case. For many in particular the young UAF and Socialist - it is a fashion statement, a rite of passage if you like.
An interesting reply, I think you summed the UAF up nicely.
I can relate to what redfox said regarding explaining to children about all the different groups. I also have an 11 year old and a 14 year old. They are well aware what's going on and now understand who's who. They even make valid comments on all this extremism which I couldn't put better myself. I don't believe in keeping kids in the dark leading a sheltered life will not help them into adulthood.
Been great talking with you, but I really need to head off we've got 2 football matches to attend tomorrow, the fun of having 2 boys. Early kick offs too!! Night.
a big good night, an absolute pleasure. I too must be off to bed, knackered, long day. I will chat again soon fella, enjoy your footy tomorrow. Cheers
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bk4theuk
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Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 03:39 AM
bk4theuk
Nov 1 2009, 03:35 AM
Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 03:10 AM
redfox
Nov 1 2009, 02:52 AM
Leodis, you're obviously a very bright bloke, much more politically on the ball than I. I'm fairly politically disinterested, and in practical terms haven't the time to get actively involved. I do, however, like to discuss ideas.
I was in Leeds today and had huge problems explaining the complexity of the situation to my 11 year old. 'Well love, the EDL are against islamic terrorism. And the UAF are against the EDL.' ' So, daddy, the UAF are for terrorism?' ' Er, well, love....' Yes, confused myself. Two ostensibly anti fascist groups, opposing one another. The UAF were going on about the BNP. Er, what's that got to do with the EDL? I know nowt about the EDL at the moment, but even I can see massive differences between them and the BNP. So are the UAF just plain confused? What's your take?
I'm a big believer in that a childs awareness is always greater than the adults because of their young minds they are burdened with the crap that we are often burdened with. He will find his own answers with your help of course. Been truthful is the only way I think with a child, at first there will be confusion, but eventually they make their own judgements hopefully. I would not worry too much about what your child knows or thinks just yet.

The UAF are politically motivated far left socialists - who believe in standing only for minority groups. However, they exclude what they see as the hemogenic groups - meaning anything to do with white, or the group that holds most of the power (in Europe this group is white) regardless of it being non-racist. They see white as the power that controls them, even though it controls us too.

Most of all they are educated people, but don't forget educated does not always mean clever or aware.

The people I have met from University - certainly look down on the working classes, I have to be careful not to make grand generalisations but it as often been the case. For many in particular the young UAF and Socialist - it is a fashion statement, a rite of passage if you like.
An interesting reply, I think you summed the UAF up nicely.
I can relate to what redfox said regarding explaining to children about all the different groups. I also have an 11 year old and a 14 year old. They are well aware what's going on and now understand who's who. They even make valid comments on all this extremism which I couldn't put better myself. I don't believe in keeping kids in the dark leading a sheltered life will not help them into adulthood.
Been great talking with you, but I really need to head off we've got 2 football matches to attend tomorrow, the fun of having 2 boys. Early kick offs too!! Night.
a big good night, an absolute pleasure. I too must be off to bed, knackered, long day. I will chat again soon fella, enjoy your footy tomorrow. Cheers
One last thing before I go, sorry if I come across as a geezer but I'm 100% female. Nice talking to you too, night.
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Leodis
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bk4theuk
Nov 1 2009, 03:41 AM
Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 03:39 AM
bk4theuk
Nov 1 2009, 03:35 AM
Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 03:10 AM
redfox
Nov 1 2009, 02:52 AM
Leodis, you're obviously a very bright bloke, much more politically on the ball than I. I'm fairly politically disinterested, and in practical terms haven't the time to get actively involved. I do, however, like to discuss ideas.
I was in Leeds today and had huge problems explaining the complexity of the situation to my 11 year old. 'Well love, the EDL are against islamic terrorism. And the UAF are against the EDL.' ' So, daddy, the UAF are for terrorism?' ' Er, well, love....' Yes, confused myself. Two ostensibly anti fascist groups, opposing one another. The UAF were going on about the BNP. Er, what's that got to do with the EDL? I know nowt about the EDL at the moment, but even I can see massive differences between them and the BNP. So are the UAF just plain confused? What's your take?
I'm a big believer in that a childs awareness is always greater than the adults because of their young minds they are burdened with the crap that we are often burdened with. He will find his own answers with your help of course. Been truthful is the only way I think with a child, at first there will be confusion, but eventually they make their own judgements hopefully. I would not worry too much about what your child knows or thinks just yet.

The UAF are politically motivated far left socialists - who believe in standing only for minority groups. However, they exclude what they see as the hemogenic groups - meaning anything to do with white, or the group that holds most of the power (in Europe this group is white) regardless of it being non-racist. They see white as the power that controls them, even though it controls us too.

Most of all they are educated people, but don't forget educated does not always mean clever or aware.

The people I have met from University - certainly look down on the working classes, I have to be careful not to make grand generalisations but it as often been the case. For many in particular the young UAF and Socialist - it is a fashion statement, a rite of passage if you like.
An interesting reply, I think you summed the UAF up nicely.
I can relate to what redfox said regarding explaining to children about all the different groups. I also have an 11 year old and a 14 year old. They are well aware what's going on and now understand who's who. They even make valid comments on all this extremism which I couldn't put better myself. I don't believe in keeping kids in the dark leading a sheltered life will not help them into adulthood.
Been great talking with you, but I really need to head off we've got 2 football matches to attend tomorrow, the fun of having 2 boys. Early kick offs too!! Night.
a big good night, an absolute pleasure. I too must be off to bed, knackered, long day. I will chat again soon fella, enjoy your footy tomorrow. Cheers
One last thing before I go, sorry if I come across as a geezer but I'm 100% female. Nice talking to you too, night.
I tell ya what that as just made me chuckle lots, got be careful not to wake the house up hahaha.

I think it was the Bulldog in the Avatar what through me, probably not taking as much notice as I should at this late hour, the Bulldog is probably a bitch then haha lol. Again thank you for the great discussion and I will look forward to talking to you again. I'm still chuckling away.

Good night
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bk4theuk
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Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 03:44 AM
bk4theuk
Nov 1 2009, 03:41 AM
Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 03:39 AM
bk4theuk
Nov 1 2009, 03:35 AM
Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 03:10 AM
redfox
Nov 1 2009, 02:52 AM
Leodis, you're obviously a very bright bloke, much more politically on the ball than I. I'm fairly politically disinterested, and in practical terms haven't the time to get actively involved. I do, however, like to discuss ideas.
I was in Leeds today and had huge problems explaining the complexity of the situation to my 11 year old. 'Well love, the EDL are against islamic terrorism. And the UAF are against the EDL.' ' So, daddy, the UAF are for terrorism?' ' Er, well, love....' Yes, confused myself. Two ostensibly anti fascist groups, opposing one another. The UAF were going on about the BNP. Er, what's that got to do with the EDL? I know nowt about the EDL at the moment, but even I can see massive differences between them and the BNP. So are the UAF just plain confused? What's your take?
I'm a big believer in that a childs awareness is always greater than the adults because of their young minds they are burdened with the crap that we are often burdened with. He will find his own answers with your help of course. Been truthful is the only way I think with a child, at first there will be confusion, but eventually they make their own judgements hopefully. I would not worry too much about what your child knows or thinks just yet.

The UAF are politically motivated far left socialists - who believe in standing only for minority groups. However, they exclude what they see as the hemogenic groups - meaning anything to do with white, or the group that holds most of the power (in Europe this group is white) regardless of it being non-racist. They see white as the power that controls them, even though it controls us too.

Most of all they are educated people, but don't forget educated does not always mean clever or aware.

The people I have met from University - certainly look down on the working classes, I have to be careful not to make grand generalisations but it as often been the case. For many in particular the young UAF and Socialist - it is a fashion statement, a rite of passage if you like.
An interesting reply, I think you summed the UAF up nicely.
I can relate to what redfox said regarding explaining to children about all the different groups. I also have an 11 year old and a 14 year old. They are well aware what's going on and now understand who's who. They even make valid comments on all this extremism which I couldn't put better myself. I don't believe in keeping kids in the dark leading a sheltered life will not help them into adulthood.
Been great talking with you, but I really need to head off we've got 2 football matches to attend tomorrow, the fun of having 2 boys. Early kick offs too!! Night.
a big good night, an absolute pleasure. I too must be off to bed, knackered, long day. I will chat again soon fella, enjoy your footy tomorrow. Cheers
One last thing before I go, sorry if I come across as a geezer but I'm 100% female. Nice talking to you too, night.
I tell ya what that as just made me chuckle lots, got be careful not to wake the house up hahaha.

I think it was the Bulldog in the Avatar what through me, probably not taking as much notice as I should at this late hour, the Bulldog is probably a bitch then haha lol. Again thank you for the great discussion and I will look forward to talking to you again. I'm still chuckling away.

Good night
No worries, made me laugh too, I love my animals and country what better combo than a british bulldog! I think my other half would agree on the bitch side if it! lol
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Leodis,

I've read this thread with interest and your anology with the Chartists is an interesting one - leaving aside the fact that they ultimately failed!

Why the EDL itself should not become political has already been covered by others and I agree with their reasoning. However, what I feel the EDL could benefit from is producing a pamphlet that addresses and analyses all of the EDL's concerns in forensic detail. Like the Fabian Society with some balls.

This would do away with the need for EDL supporters/representatives to have to physically enter academic centres (with the inevitable back lash and disturbance from the UAF) but can still put a serious document into the academic arena to try and begin the one debate that is still taboo.

I think there are a number of areas where direct support for a project like this can be obtained.

Possibly not what you originally had in mind, but potentially a middle way and more importantly, a start. It would also be a useful exercise purely for the reason of putting our arguments into a clear and easily understandable format for use by our own supporters as they spread the word.
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nemisis123456
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MJ999
Nov 1 2009, 01:18 AM
Whatever party is in power, we want Muslim Extremists off our streets...simple as that.
While I am in favour of "academic debate" the EDL is NOT a political party. ANY alligience to a political party could and probably would facilitate the downfall of our movement.
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"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
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Good stuff getting discussed here, the way i see it is as long as we keep peacefully demonstratng and getting our point across while at the same time continuing to shake off the image some of the press and all of the UAF etc give us. I can't see us failing tbh.
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The Swine
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BALDYMONSTER
Nov 1 2009, 02:35 PM
Good stuff getting discussed here, the way i see it is as long as we keep peacefully demonstratng and getting our point across while at the same time continuing to shake off the image some of the press and all of the UAF etc give us. I can't see us failing tbh.
I think the EDL has done an excellent job in breaking the ice and showing that people are not going to be intimidated by these radicals.If it wasn't for the EDL I doubt if the Muslim groups who came out yesterday against Choudary would have been able to find the courage to do so.

A couple of weeks ago I was growing very cynical as this forum seemed as if it had been taken over by Nazis but the Leeds demonstration showed the EDL can act with discipline and demonstrate in a professional manner and get rid of the extremist scum that tries to inflitrate its ranks.The EDL is starting to loose its racist and fascist image but it will take time.

At the moment I feel the BMSD have the best approach to dealing with radical Islam,ie,secular democracy.In England we have this unfortunate mix of church and state and this is one of the biggest stumbling blocks when it comes to keeping relgion out of politics.If tihs country was to become a secular democracy it would mean we would be able to outlaw political Islam without interferring with people's right to religous belief.

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Leodis
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Really
Nov 1 2009, 12:03 PM
Leodis,

I've read this thread with interest and your anology with the Chartists is an interesting one - leaving aside the fact that they ultimately failed!

Why the EDL itself should not become political has already been covered by others and I agree with their reasoning. However, what I feel the EDL could benefit from is producing a pamphlet that addresses and analyses all of the EDL's concerns in forensic detail. Like the Fabian Society with some balls.

This would do away with the need for EDL supporters/representatives to have to physically enter academic centres (with the inevitable back lash and disturbance from the UAF) but can still put a serious document into the academic arena to try and begin the one debate that is still taboo.

I think there are a number of areas where direct support for a project like this can be obtained.

Possibly not what you originally had in mind, but potentially a middle way and more importantly, a start. It would also be a useful exercise purely for the reason of putting our arguments into a clear and easily understandable format for use by our own supporters as they spread the word.
Hi, Really, thank you for joining in.

Last night I probably sounded a bit too determined to just have a political message. However, it is about reaching out other than demonstrations, The more the EDL and its concerns are not made racially motivated, a number of ideas and routes that can emerge in terms of having a greater voice in this land of ours.

My analogy with the Chartists is an important one. The needs of the EDL and in particular the working classes today are very different from the Chartists of yesteryear. However, what happened to them in terms of support and been attacked by the emerging media at the time and the tptb is strikingly similar. I love the poster which I posted, reading that drew so many similarities it was frightening. Plus the fact it was an Irish guy in Leeds, who made the movement so strong. The Northern Star printed in Leeds was the pamphlet for the Chartists' movement nationally distributing on average 10,000 copies a week.

I like your idea that we must put our grievances on paper - let the public read what we do, see and need in terms of support, particularly the other ethnic groups. There were just a few Black or Brown faces, we need to see more.

And I agree to publish something will give the academics something to critique and create discussion with.
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Leodis
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nemisis123456
Nov 1 2009, 01:20 PM
MJ999
Nov 1 2009, 01:18 AM
Whatever party is in power, we want Muslim Extremists off our streets...simple as that.
While I am in favour of "academic debate" the EDL is NOT a political party. ANY alligience to a political party could and probably would facilitate the downfall of our movement.
Your thoughts might be true.

However, after a year or so of growth, the lads will get bored, other approaches need to be adopted. Counter demonstrations against Choudry are great. However, we can't just demonstrate, people need to be able to support the cause and other wider issues I feel, the issue of been working class and forgotten.

Admittedly, I mixing the two subjects - against islamification and working class issues.

Maybe I am wrongly wanting the EDL to be a platform for those issues, but it is worth debating on this forum, especially under the Politics category.
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Leodis
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Polious
Nov 1 2009, 03:52 PM
BALDYMONSTER
Nov 1 2009, 02:35 PM
Good stuff getting discussed here, the way i see it is as long as we keep peacefully demonstratng and getting our point across while at the same time continuing to shake off the image some of the press and all of the UAF etc give us. I can't see us failing tbh.
I think the EDL has done an excellent job in breaking the ice and showing that people are not going to be intimidated by these radicals.If it wasn't for the EDL I doubt if the Muslim groups who came out yesterday against Choudary would have been able to find the courage to do so.

A couple of weeks ago I was growing very cynical as this forum seemed as if it had been taken over by Nazis but the Leeds demonstration showed the EDL can act with discipline and demonstrate in a professional manner and get rid of the extremist scum that tries to inflitrate its ranks.The EDL is starting to loose its racist and fascist image but it will take time.

At the moment I feel the BMSD have the best approach to dealing with radical Islam,ie,secular democracy.In England we have this unfortunate mix of church and state and this is one of the biggest stumbling blocks when it comes to keeping relgion out of politics.If tihs country was to become a secular democracy it would mean we would be able to outlaw political Islam without interferring with people's right to religous belief.

Your last point regarding the mixing of state and religion is a fantastic one to discuss here in terms of politics. The issue is Her Majesty's Government, and HRH being the Head of the Church of England is always going to be fascinating one to discuss. Especially if one is thinking about abolishing the connection.

Did anyone see on the news BBC Look North the lone voice in the UAF crowd getting beat up, with placards and punched. I was very suprised how Look North showed this, they certainly showed the UAF been the aggressors.
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AgeofEnlightenment
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Kafir
Leodis:

Please give me your thoughts on my response on page 3.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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Leodis
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AgeofEnlightenment
Nov 1 2009, 05:08 PM
Leodis:

Please give me your thoughts on my response on page 3.
Ageofenlightenment,

In terms of affecting others views especially the youth, with regards to media, I totally agree.

I also think we are lucky at this time - we have the internet. However, I strongly feel that the media are operated by the tptb.

While I was at University - I read about what Max Horkheimer wrote about the media and way it is controlled by the elite. An amazing book 'A Dialectic of Enlightenment' - Horkheimer called it the Mass Deception, I personally agree with him in terms of the Mass Media - including many parts of the internet.

While I cannot argue that we do not have a voice in terms of this website and our ability to get things printed if needs be, we will always be attacked by a bigger machine.
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AgeofEnlightenment
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Well it was the printing press that brought on the renaissance and age of enlightenment with it's free distribution of information, and it was censorship and similar divisive politics that brought us into the modern age.

The internet too is helping bring back some form of golden age, but there are attempts to censor it as we speak, sad but true.

TPTB? Who is that exactly? Just a question, but are you a conspiracy theorist?
Edited by AgeofEnlightenment, Nov 1 2009, 05:24 PM.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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Leodis
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AgeofEnlightenment
Nov 1 2009, 05:22 PM
Well it was the printing press that brough on the renaissance and age of enlightenment, and it was censorship that brought on divisive politics.

The internet too is helping bring back some form of golden age, but there are attempts to censor it as we speak, sad but true.

TPTB? Who is that exactly? Just a question, but are you a conspiracy theorist?
TPTB is often used by conspiracy nuts - 'The Powers That Be'

As much as I have enjoyed reading many conspiracies, they are used to lighten my mood, many are hilarious, some are just plain interesting.

The thing is with the word 'conspiracy' it is often used by governments and others very successfully to ridicule certain debates. For example, immigration. There is a topic in academia and in particular Social Policy called 'Dependency Ratio' basically this is a statistic used to determine how many people we need in work paying taxes to support those who are pensioners or are not working.

The dependency ratio suggests we need an extra 5 or so million person in this country by 2050, not including the birth rate which is in decline for many white European countries.

Therefore, immigration must increase, therefore policy must be created to allow this to happen. I think we can see this in action at this point. For me to suggest policy exist for this to happen could be construed as a conspiracy.

We have to be very careful with that particular word.
Edited by Leodis, Nov 1 2009, 05:36 PM.
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AgeofEnlightenment
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Kafir
Conspiracy theories to me are either completely fallacious nonsense, or they take some element of truth and twist it to seem as if all a long the only reason why X was occuring was because politicians want to enslave us.

Take the idea of a one world currency, or united continents in a union type scenario; both have been supported, debated, and encouraged for years but apparently it means a bunch of shapeshifting zionist free masons want to use it to make us all slaves to their lord and saviour satan.

As for immigration; while it could be argued that having the flood gates open for an influx of people to fill the work force quota is a good thing, it certainly becomes the opposite when we allow extremist islamists with terrorist links, and even worse when they're allowed in illegally.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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Leodis
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AgeofEnlightenment
Nov 1 2009, 05:48 PM
Conspiracy theories to me are either completely fallacious nonsense, or they take some element of truth and twist it to seem as if all a long the only reason why X was occuring was because politicians want to enslave us.

Take the idea of a one world currency, or united continents in a union type scenario; both have been supported, debated, and encouraged for years but apparently it means a bunch of shapeshifting zionist free masons want to use it to make us all slaves to their lord and saviour satan.

As for immigration; while it could be argued that having the flood gates open for an influx of people to fill the work force quota is a good thing, it certainly becomes the opposite when we allow extremist islamists with terrorist links, and even worse when they're allowed in illegally.
While Mr Icke and his reptilian theories are a brilliant read if one likes fiction and mix it with real events for me are a brilliant read and very funny.

I do not subscribe to the New World Order, Zionist Conspiracies either. A one world currency and political alliances are inevitable.

However, lets not be naive to think there is not a struggle between world powers to see who actually controls this.

There are many conspiracies available between the issues that we and the EDL are interested in, the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism. The rise of immigration in Europe and North America.

I for this discussion would want to stay well clear of, at the end of the day, my opinion is about having a voice. And a political one at that.
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AgeofEnlightenment
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Leodis
Nov 1 2009, 05:56 PM
AgeofEnlightenment
Nov 1 2009, 05:48 PM
Conspiracy theories to me are either completely fallacious nonsense, or they take some element of truth and twist it to seem as if all a long the only reason why X was occuring was because politicians want to enslave us.

Take the idea of a one world currency, or united continents in a union type scenario; both have been supported, debated, and encouraged for years but apparently it means a bunch of shapeshifting zionist free masons want to use it to make us all slaves to their lord and saviour satan.

As for immigration; while it could be argued that having the flood gates open for an influx of people to fill the work force quota is a good thing, it certainly becomes the opposite when we allow extremist islamists with terrorist links, and even worse when they're allowed in illegally.
While Mr Icke and his reptilian theories are a brilliant read if one likes fiction and mix it with real events for me are a brilliant read and very funny.

I do not subscribe to the New World Order, Zionist Conspiracies either. A one world currency and political alliances are inevitable.

However, lets not be naive to think there is not a struggle between world powers to see who actually controls this.

There are many conspiracies available between the issues that we and the EDL are interested in, the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism. The rise of immigration in Europe and North America.

I for this discussion would want to stay well clear of, at the end of the day, my opinion is about having a voice. And a political one at that.
I agree completely. Yes there is conflicts of interest and over international dominance, but as you said this is a seperate issue that the EDL does not need to worry about currently.

Winning back freedom of speech for all British citizens, and opposing sharia/extremism is where it's at.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings." - Denis Diderot.

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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Feliz Navidad (Gold) created by Sarah & Delirium of the ZNR