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The Communist International and Us!
Topic Started: 23 Jan 2014, 22:11 (1,117 Views)
Discoveria
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Here's my take on the current situation.

1. The issue has been dissected over and over, but for your information, my view is that NNC's post was homophobic. NNC used an insult that he knew would hurt Cuba more because of Cuba being gay. Cuba has actually provided a 'smoking gun' piece of evidence that this is the case, one that I don't actually recall seeing before. (It's this TG from NNC: "I have nothing homosexuals. I took advantage from Neza being homosexual as he would be vulnerable to a seemingly anti homosexual comment. If Neza wasn't homosexual, I would have found something he was to insult him with it. He just happened to be homosexual instead of, say, being fat.") Therefore, any suggestion that the post has been interpreted mistakenly (due to its deliberate ambiguity), for example by Anima Vagula Blandula, can be safely dismissed.

2. Cuba really does feel deeply hurt about this. I have no doubt about that.

3. The issue concerns DSA in the sense that it is part of your foreign policy considerations. Cuba made it his intention to shut down Communist International's embassies in response to the lack of engagement from CI's government. Of course as you don't actually have an embassy with CI right now, it's hard for me to comment further on this.

4. Cuba has accepted NNC's apology in DSA. Since that is the case, I would hope for a swift resolution to the matter.

5. I don't think it is helpful for either side to bring up the long history of antagonism between DSA/TI/UDL etc. I think there needs to be a clear focus on the dispute between NNC and Cuba.

6. If I may say so, I would support the removal/banjection of Anima Vagula Blandula from the region. I understand that the nation is making a point, but the name is causing further distress and seems spiteful to me. It was not necessary to use such a provocative nation name to contribute anonymously to the discussion. Shame on you, player behind Anima Vagula Blandula. I will not speculate on who controls this player.

7. If I may say so, I believe the 'free speech' objections from Parti Ouvrier and Suceavija miss the point. Free speech provisions are intended to protect political speech, not to protect insults that cross the line into hate speech. NNC's original remark does not deserve such protection.

8. The fact is that some disagreements will remain unresolved. I think the focus should be on what needs to be done next to get closure. Whether a statement from DSA would be helpful, etc. Cuba, I hope you agree with my point here. I want you to feel that justice has been served as well.

Please forgive me if my style of expression has been less than stellar. I'll try to respond in due course.
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Professor Simon Goldacre
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Jack Steiner
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Cuba
23 Jan 2014, 23:37
Jack Steiner
23 Jan 2014, 23:25
Cuba
23 Jan 2014, 22:46
You asked for a case that suited your demands for rigor, since your citizens disregarded me off hand and called me names, instead of offering to hear or listen, to what was a personal issue they involved themselves in politically through the support of NNC whilst delegate, through repeated villainization of myself and TI mates more than they do fascists or capitalists, and for the amount of hate and disrespect I got for something that is of very grave concern to people who ought to be socially progressive and egalitarian. I hope that argument is cogent enough for the lawyers of the DSA, I don't expect any sympathy regardless, as the older players here can't let anything go, and the newer players in region never question the historical narrative, the reasons for the split between TI and DSA, and the reasons for so much hate and antipathy immediately...

To respond to the poster above, this is every piece of discussion related to the homophobic incident, tangentially related to the DSA as the nation with the homophobic slur still resides here without being ejected or confronted, as former CI delegate who resigned in disgrace Socialist Asssembly Nations/Parti Ouvrier came here to seek support in the only region I knew would oppose me no matter what, and wouldn't even hear my argument without calling me a 'snake in the grass'.

I hope this not only illuminates the nature of Left regional disputes, but also the problems inherent in centralized leadership like yours and the CI/CILs in which a cabal of people run the region forever, and issues of greivance or disturbance are never addressed for convenient reasons.

Of course there was a time when I wondered about DSA, but having got to know them they are in fact a nice bunch of people as far as I can tell and I've come to the conclusion that this is the best the left has to offer in NSG. The thing is, even though we've had heated exchanges, I feel the DSA residents are genuine. I reject the notion that they're a cabal, besides, this is still a game and a region is not the same thing as a real life government or party, (its foolish to take this so seriously), it is not a movement either, as Marxingad on the CI RMB contends. Also, at least comrades here are elected and accountable, TI's and the other bunch of anarchists are not, they have leaders in a so-called leaderless region, but whether you choose to recognise it or not, there are what I would call leaders in TI.

My other issue with TI, as I have said before is that they have 1. consensual decision making which gives a veto to a minority, 2. They insist on voting in every situation and issue,(direct democracy/referendum) which was a favourite method of Bonaparte because it leads to crude results.

By the way, as an edit, I'm inclined to agree with Groblania
Comradely
SAM
You're again proving incapable of seeing beyond the veil, this is all a result of many complex situations, some of which were succored and aided by the membership here, do I have to trawl your RMB too to get you, possibly newer members, to know your TRUE history?

How about focusing on the issue of Homophobia as Grobladonia is, instead of turning this into the Hate the Internationale for arbitary sh-t hour...you understand there is aline between the political and the personal? Well Suceavija himself crossed that line in Gay when he posted that venemous invective you all have on your RMB.

Until the nation that is made as an insult is removed, I will not cease from defending my argument here, but I will not further post on your RMB, since you all seem to come too conclusions too quickly, some so quick that I know they couldn't possibly have read through all the RMB posts or the messages, just knee jerk 'f-ck Cuba' mentality coming into play, like I expected.

I seriously hope some of you newbies question your goveernment, instead of just being swallowed into the facetious saccharine nature of your community but not the intrigues underneath, and secondly, that you desist from criticizing anti-bureaucratic forms of management, because we live and love and fight, we don't live to make laws, to talk about the weather, to talk about dead pets, but we confront evil, malice and intolerance, and ignorance every day, we never relent, and never will, as Internationalists and as human beings, to know that we are the paragon region of the Left in spite of our not having your bloated numbers here.
But that's just it Cuba, I've been insulted in the past by Sucejiva, I took it as a misunderstanding and it just rolled over me, yet, in the end, I think Suc is deep down a pleasant and thoughtful character, I don't loo at any negative comment said and conclude that is who they are, if I did that, I would have to say that you're a misogynist and cannot be reformed, but apparently, trying to do this with NNC's homophobic remarks, which were a year ago, taints him forever! Incidentally, were there calls for you to be ejected when you made misogynist remarks to comrade Veronica? Were you shunned, harassed, had regions declaring any regions you resided in as harbouring misogynists and must have embassies closed?

And you can dish out criticism but cannot take it can you? Why should anarchists have special treatment and not be critiqued? If you can't take a critique from the left, what are you going to be like in a situation of increased class consciousness and fascists and or pro capitalist attracts on our characters? Or even in current day media, for example, think of it as the 'Paxo' test, could you handle a barraging from Jeremy Paxman?

Jeremy Paxman: "So what use is it for you anarchists types to just troll around on the internet, is that really going to change anything?

Or,

Paxo: "Why do you support Kim Jung Un, a man who heads a dictatorial regime that commits torture and starvation of his own people? Meanwhile, Un live a luxurious lifestyle. That doesn't sound very socialist to me".

Or "Hasn't China got the same levels of inequality as the US", or what ever...

Cubana: "Cease and desist your criticism of us", *leaves room*

If you can't take a heated debate, even online, my advice to you is to get out of politics, because I've had to deal with far worse characters, (in the real world by the way) than an online freemason* that made homophobic remarks a year ago.

Anyway, yes I took time to respond, I'm beginning to think that perhaps both you and NNC should have been ejected and banned, NNC for his class collaborating politics and you for your support for the national bourgeoisie, (N.Korea/Kim Jung Un and China - I don't see anything communist about that). Also, gays and blacks have been persecuted in left-Bonapartist Cuba.

And if you're wondering why it takes time, NSG is a second priority for me, existing left/socialist/communist organisations take presidence, I'm only human, I can't remember everything in the past, or act straight away, and there are real things going on - such as left group email lists, ect, factions in the SWP, Left Unity, ect. Of course I do accept Laand's criticism in some respects, but as I always said, NNC was to become a resident/guest only, without voting rights in other words, so Laand is incorrect to say that he shared a political platform, unfortunately this led to confusion, the only way to overcome that would have been to eject both Cubana and NNC!

* By the way, the offending nation here in the DSA looks to me like a freemasonic 'brother'. I could be wrong.
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Riasy
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Comrade Cuba, thank you very much for explaining this situation in organized manner. I understood three things from the evidences that you have presented:

1. New New Capston is a leftist player with homophobic tendencies, and he has insulted you in the past. I can understand why you want to inform others about this.

2. Parti Ouvrier/SAM hasn’t demonstrated any homophobic tendencies. If you don’t like how he treated your case when he was in CIL/CI you should discuss it with him via TG and/or with other members of CIL/CI. My opinion is that your conflict with SAM has no interregional importance, so I don’t think that members of DSA have reasons to choose sides in your conflict with him.

3. Nation Animula Vagula Blandula was named in such way to repeat the insult that was made by New New Capston in that incident and to provoke your negative reaction.

Flaimbaiting is a form of trolling, and trolling is punishable offense in DSA. I hope that our Minister of Justice will research the possibility of ejection of Animula Vagula Blandula because of the obvious trollish intent behind its name.
Edited by Riasy, 24 Jan 2014, 01:03.
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Discoveria
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"Bothered to vote"
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I also want to address a point made by Ratateague on the DSA RMB earlier, namely this post:

Ratateague
 
And for the record, I have casually, distantly followed the drama between Cuba and NNC. I have seen snippets of the back and forths, and I have also seen NNC desperately trying to seek reconciliation from not only Cuba, but from the gay community. The general consensus among Gay, is that this is a personal problem between the two of them, not a homophobic attitude from NNC. I actually had a couple tabs open to RMB posts that shed clarity and light onto their fight, before my browser crashed and I lost track of them. The gem I took away from it, was someone's astute observation that Cuba has never, ever, in any situation warranting an apology, said he was sorry.

Because as Cuba had mentioned twice before, he had called upon the mods. That said, it has nothing to do with us, and that they should take it elsewhere posthaste.


My emphasis in bold.

The bolded statement is blatantly false. Gay did not come to any consensus. If anything, there was a wide range of views. Duodez and I were of the opinion that NNC had been homophobic. Fennijer saw it as a personal insult only. Asakya's post, in hindsight now, appears to be one long ad hominem attack on Cuba. Needless to say, I disagree completely with Asakya's perception of NNC's homophobic remark.

Cherry-picking Asakya's post out of our RMB as if it is the only important thing that was said, annoys me a little, I have to say. You can follow the original discussion at http://www.nationstates.net/page=/region=gay/page=display_region_rmb?start=9025
Edited by Discoveria, 24 Jan 2014, 00:58.
"...to be the most effective form of human government."
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Jack Steiner
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Ratateague
24 Jan 2014, 01:05
Discoveria
24 Jan 2014, 00:57
I also want to address a point made by Ratateague on the DSA RMB earlier, namely this post:

Ratateague
 
And for the record, I have casually, distantly followed the drama between Cuba and NNC. I have seen snippets of the back and forths, and I have also seen NNC desperately trying to seek reconciliation from not only Cuba, but from the gay community. The general consensus among Gay, is that this is a personal problem between the two of them, not a homophobic attitude from NNC. I actually had a couple tabs open to RMB posts that shed clarity and light onto their fight, before my browser crashed and I lost track of them. The gem I took away from it, was someone's astute observation that Cuba has never, ever, in any situation warranting an apology, said he was sorry.

Because as Cuba had mentioned twice before, he had called upon the mods. That said, it has nothing to do with us, and that they should take it elsewhere posthaste.


My emphasis in bold.

The bolded statement is blatantly false. Gay did not come to any consensus. If anything, there was a wide range of views. Duodez and I were of the opinion that NNC had been homophobic. Fennijer saw it as a personal insult only. Asakya's post, in hindsight now, appears to be one long ad hominem attack on Cuba. Needless to say, I disagree completely with Asakya's perception of NNC's homophobic remark.

Cherry-picking Asakya's post out of our RMB as if it is the only important thing that was said, annoys me a little, I have to say. You can follow the original discussion at http://www.nationstates.net/page=/region=gay/page=display_region_rmb?start=9025
Okay, I was probably wrong on that one. From the volume of comments that I had read, that was just my general impression.


However.
Yes, everyone has a right to get things wrong. I did a superb job as WAD in CI didn't I? :$ Of course, it would have been a judgement call to, for instance, eject nations. I also didn't manage to get comrades to understand the difference in participating in the region and merely being a resident.

By the way, NNC posted a whole load of freemasonic,(far from being an institution of working class independence) links type spam in CIL way back.
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Discoveria
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Fair enough.

My view, Parti Ouvrier, is that you and Cuba fundamentally disagree on aspects of how justice should have been administered in CI. I can understand that.
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Ratateague
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Discoveria
24 Jan 2014, 00:57
I also want to address a point made by Ratateague on the DSA RMB earlier, namely this post:

Ratateague
 
And for the record, I have casually, distantly followed the drama between Cuba and NNC. I have seen snippets of the back and forths, and I have also seen NNC desperately trying to seek reconciliation from not only Cuba, but from the gay community. The general consensus among Gay, is that this is a personal problem between the two of them, not a homophobic attitude from NNC. I actually had a couple tabs open to RMB posts that shed clarity and light onto their fight, before my browser crashed and I lost track of them. The gem I took away from it, was someone's astute observation that Cuba has never, ever, in any situation warranting an apology, said he was sorry.

Because as Cuba had mentioned twice before, he had called upon the mods. That said, it has nothing to do with us, and that they should take it elsewhere posthaste.


My emphasis in bold.

The bolded statement is blatantly false. Gay did not come to any consensus. If anything, there was a wide range of views. Duodez and I were of the opinion that NNC had been homophobic. Fennijer saw it as a personal insult only. Asakya's post, in hindsight now, appears to be one long ad hominem attack on Cuba. Needless to say, I disagree completely with Asakya's perception of NNC's homophobic remark.

Cherry-picking Asakya's post out of our RMB as if it is the only important thing that was said, annoys me a little, I have to say. You can follow the original discussion at http://www.nationstates.net/page=/region=gay/page=display_region_rmb?start=9025
Okay, I was probably wrong on that one. From the volume of comments that I had read, that was just my general impression.

However.
Discoveria
 
3. The issue concerns DSA in the sense that it is part of your foreign policy considerations. Cuba made it his intention to shut down Communist International's embassies in response to the lack of engagement from CI's government. Of course as you don't actually have an embassy with CI right now, it's hard for me to comment further on this.
...

5. I don't think it is helpful for either side to bring up the long history of antagonism between DSA/TI/UDL etc. I think there needs to be a clear focus on the dispute between NNC and Cuba.

6. If I may say so, I would support the removal/banjection of Anima Vagula Blandula from the region. I understand that the nation is making a point, but the name is causing further distress and seems spiteful to me. It was not necessary to use such a provocative nation name to contribute anonymously to the discussion. Shame on you, player behind Anima Vagula Blandula. I will not speculate on who controls this player.

I understand you may not be a familiar with a lot of the context surrounding DSA/TI disputes. What you may not know is that this kind of situation is nothing new for us. Where a grievance is perceived by TI members -often incorrectly- and they proceed to harass us in every (game-legal) way imaginable. Propaganda campaigns. Baiting and swearing at us from their regions. Gossiping and slandering us in our embassy regions. Piling on our RMB to spam and incite players. In particular, using people (to be expatriated) as bargaining chips in peace negotiations (aka "stop with the bickering and slandering, please"). These situations have been held over us and revisited over and over and over for us. Cuba being one of the major perpetrators/instigators. And it's nothing short of trolling, from the very amused reactions we've seen to our frustration.

So while I'm inclined to agree with you on those terms, and that this is a unique situation where the grievance is actually substantial, please understand that this may be just another play on their part, and it is very hard to separate it from their history of dealings with us. We still have yet to hear the end of Unibot, or even the Antarctic Alliance dispute.

Considering that Animula-whatever travelled to DSA after making those comments, it is increasingly clear that their intentions were to start another fight between Cuba, TI/CI, and ourselves. Regrettably, Cuba took the bait, but it's understandable as he's a very passionate and excitable person. Regardless, I'm hardpressed to grant him this one wish. I don't expect any feelings of gratitude in return, or any alleviation of resentment towards us. But what I do expect, is to never have to hear of this again. If I hear any criticism of "DSA's unjust banning of Animula," there will be HELL to pay. Mark my words.

Cuba: whether you find it hard to believe, whether you despise me too much to listen, I am actually concerned about you. Not in a condescending way. Outside of the game. I have noticed your behavior for a while, and you have probably heard this before, but I feel like I need to say it. You are obviously very intelligent, but also troubled. You need someone to talk to, someone to lean on, someone to confide in, someone to vent with. Perhaps even therapy. I've had therapy, regarding my disability. It's nothing to be ashamed of.
Edited by Ratateague, 24 Jan 2014, 02:17.
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Riasy
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We should eject Animula not because of the wishes of Comrade Cuba, but because according to the information that we have now it was named in such way with intention to flaimbait other player. Flaimbaiting is a form of trolling, and trolling is prohibited in DSA, so we should take action against this nation.
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Kiptoke-Ruselia
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Maybe it would be a good idea to settle this in the DSA court if we are truly going to ban someone.
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StJames
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Kiptoke
24 Jan 2014, 02:32
Maybe it would be a good idea to settle this in the DSA court if we are truly going to ban someone.
Agreed. If someone could please do the honours.
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