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The Merits of Aiding a Desperate, Treacherous Enemy; Defending The Internationale - Solidarity with disagreeable comrades, or duped once again by our harassing bullies?
Topic Started: 21 Nov 2013, 16:57 (675 Views)
Lemur Isles
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Suceavija
 
I really can't understand why The Internationale insists on imposing its will upon the DSA time and time again.
But what are they trying to impose on the DSA now? They used to be opposed to embassies because they didn't like the fact that some of our members defend fascist regions. Not anymore though, presumably because they are grateful for the compassion we showed them, and can see past this.

Suceavija
 
The only thing more perplexing than this group of deceitful, maladjusted bullies repeatedly singling out our region for its harassment is the willingness for the more naive optimists in our own ranks to invite them back for a seventh time to stab us in the back. It's worth pointing out that not even one single fascist region has ever attempted to harm our region in any of the many ways in which TI already has. TI is in fact a more formidable, proven enemy and hazard to the safety of this leftist community than all the other forces of fascism in NS.
If I'm a 'naive optimist', so be it. I highly doubt that this whole thing as actually a plot by the Internationale all along, to raise up our hopes for reconciliation--only to pull out and start slandering our region last minute. Now if that would happen, I would concede that you were right all along and that I was in fact a naive optimist.

Of course, we could not even find that out if we're not open to embassies in the first place. Why not give them the benefit of the doubt, don't invest much hope, and expect the worst to happen, and possibly be proven right? I don't see any possible downsides?

Suceavija
 
*I found this recent quote from Comrade Herrebrugh in the recent Fantastiana extra-trial discussion to be quite apropos to this discussion:
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And someone who allows someone else a third chance after two betrayals is a fool.

So you do understand where I'm coming from ;)
I think it's exaggeration to say that the Internationale 'betrayed' us all those times. Were we not the ones to end relations in the first place? That's not to say that the Internationale didn't do anything wrong, I think at times they've been very unreasonable with UDL conspiracy theories, and unwarranted verbal attacks.

However, the main cause of friction, was that TI didn't want to open embassies with anyone who has members that defend fascist regions. That is why all negotiations ultimately failed. But it was their prerogative, and I suppose fair enough, especially considering that we closed embassies in the first place, due to them allegedly not meeting certain embassy requirements. But, now the defender thing is apparently no longer a deal breaker, why not proceed?
Edited by Lemur Isles, 19 Dec 2013, 01:52.
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Sodankyla
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Lemur Isles, I'm very disappointed in you.

In the heat of the moment, even if we didn't agree to close embassies in the first place, they would have done do to us anyway, striking your "evidence" void. I don't really have time for the likes of this so I'll make my stance a little brief.

Yes, as admitted, many TIers are hard liners. In other words, dogmatic communists and militant leftists who are naturally intolerant and close minded. What a way to declare yourself a naive appeaser to these people in front of us honest people. Now I think you are an honest person with what I really hope are good intentions at heart, but you are very ignorant. Don't you even dare call me hypocritical, because the only hypocritical ones here are the The Internationale. Lies, decievement, and false accusations go a very long way. I for one, have a VERY strong stance against blackmailing and false claims.

Now for the obvious fact that they raid, that doesn't even need to be explained. I take a neutral-defensive stance because I defend causes I care about. UFC's liberation proposal was probably over the top, I'll admit, but I do understand the weight of his grudge. I couldn't care less what happens to TI, regions as far left as TI, nor any right wing Nazi-like regions. To me, they're intolerant and militant. Their war against Nazism is more of the "Stalin vs. Hitler" war. Both sides are militant and against civil and political freedom. I'd rather let them rot, just as an example to the world on what dogmatism and unquestionable belief in a system leads to.

Their commendation of the DSA I couldn't care about, because I chose not to be involved in defending TI, because of my raiding stance. Like I said, I take blackmailing VERY seriously, cause multiple times in my life, I have been accused for many wrongs that weren't mine. Most here are probably the "forgive and forget" type, but I am the "forgive, but never forget" type. Unfortunately, I don't see any reason yet why I should give forgiveness to TI. A simple "sorry" doesn't mend wounds this deep, those scars demand a price.

If a majority of you really do go on with this and this pathetic and cowardly "forgive and forget" philosophy, then justice really has failed.
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Suceavija
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Lemur Isles
 
But what are they trying to impose on the DSA now? They used to be opposed to embassies because they didn't like the fact that some of our members defend fascist regions. Not anymore though, presumably because they are grateful for the compassion we showed them, and can see past this.

What they are imposing on us is their presence in our region when it is entirely inappropriate and most unwelcome. It's as though they don't even understand or care about the damage they have done to us or our former allies. If they were a psychotic ex-boyfriend I would have filed a restraining order on their pathologically-obsessed persons a long time ago. It's offensive that they would mock our region by conducting any form of pseudo diplomacy without even acknowledging the terrible things they have done to us, let alone apologize for them.

Instead, they went on the offensive with a personal attack right before your eyes (do those look like the words of solidarity coming from an eager, new ally?) and ran away from a potential debate rather than face up to what they've done - what does that tell you about the weak character of their leadership and their constituents? For that matter, the prospects of an enduring diplomatic relationship? The sincerity of their words? Noble of them to accept our defense when they're backed into a corner, though, eh? They fundamentally do not have any respect for our region whatsoever, or regard for honorable conduct; and a colorful, well-substantiated history bears this out.

Lemur Isles
 
Why not give them the benefit of the doubt, don't invest much hope, and expect the worst to happen, and possibly be proven right? I don't see any possible downsides?

You see, I already did give them the benefit of the doubt and I hoped for the best once before. You should familiarize yourself with the history and behaviors of TI and its Delegate during my administration. You appear to not be aware of the extent of the betrayals that were perpetrated on our region and the broader leftist community by TI just during my administration alone. Keep in mind I'm not even including all the vitriol from TI before I was involved in regional government. Here's what happens when you give TI the benefit of the doubt:

> http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=217177
> read the troves of RMB evidence from around this time last year left in both our RMB and TI's RMB by its delegate and the most obnoxious deceitful members that are still active and involved in that place.
> then read the RMB chatter from the second or third term of Haltari's administration.
> everything else has happened while you have resided here; so you should be well aware of those from your own astute observations.

None of these are exaggerations, as painful as that must be to acknowledge.

We have been proven wrong on mending relations on numerous occasions. There is zero evidence to believe anything will be different this time around. The same awful bunch that was running things over there are still in power (well, minus La Pas, right?) and still operating under the same delusions and conducting themselves with the same antisocial behavior as all the other times before. Hope of salvaging anything died with Socialist Space Republic's reversal of policy and rhetoric prior to his CTE. What you are seeing now in the relatively drastic, desperate change in rhetoric from their current Delegate is the manifestation of a concept known as fair-weathered friendship. It's spineless and shameful, even for The Internationale.

The moment they are no longer in need of our WA members to survive, the same history will repeat itself. You probably already know that deep down inside, just by reading some of the quite nasty things they are saying about your fellow comrades in their RMB, who even now are still protecting them from much deserved annihilation despite this. Those in TI are incapable of seeing past their own failed strategy and ideology to the extent that they demonstratively will attack leftists just as they would fascists in order to keep their delusions alive and to dodge all accountability. These kinds of people are not worthy of alliance, trust, or friendship. You should let this dead horse finally rest in peace.

The downsides you're looking for are explained in my earlier post about the effects on game play as a result of TI invading the DSA periodically with their bullshit drama on a quarterly basis. They are caustic to the game and I would consider the direct loss of players and membership of the DSA due to their periodic invasions a 'downside.'

Bazlantis tried to warn me, just as I'm warning you now; and I disregarded his advice and words of substantiated caution because I thought 'this time will be different,' just as you are now. I admire your optimism; but something tells me you are about to become part of a growing membership of betrayed idealistic leftists who have been attacked and profoundly disappointed by those in TI. We will leave the light on for you ;)
Edited by Suceavija, 19 Dec 2013, 03:31.
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Suceavija
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@ Sodankyla: I think it's important to keep things in perspective. Lemur Isles is trying to make things better between our region and TI. While I see this as probable and worthwhile as trying to stop the tides or reverse the rotation of the Earth, he is not a bad person for trying to do so. I concede that he is glossing over just a few details in order to keep the peace ;)

I don't think it's constructive to make attacks personal, especially among our own. Personal attacks (and using spelling errors as a straw-man when they've got no legitimate leg to stand on otherwise) are the purview of The Internationale; so I think we should rise above that.

I think you are spot on about the ideological rigidity of our enemies. I don't think it's appropriate to refer to the peacemakers of our region as pathetic. Forgiveness is divine; and as you pointed out one should never forget. Unfortunately, for any kind of diplomatic relationship between our two regions to exist and to work at this point, one would need total amnesia in order to stomach it :P
Edited by Suceavija, 19 Dec 2013, 03:57.
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Lemur Isles
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Before I make any further comments, I guess I could benefit from reading some of the past exchanges. Fun. :-/
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Sodankyla
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Suceavija
19 Dec 2013, 03:52
@ Sodankyla: I think it's important to keep things in perspective. Lemur Isles is trying to make things better between our region and TI. While I see this as probable and worthwhile as trying to stop the tides or reverse the rotation of the Earth, he is not a bad person for trying to do so. I concede that he is glossing over just a few details in order to keep the peace ;)

I don't think it's constructive to make attacks personal, especially among our own. Personal attacks (and using spelling errors as a straw-man when they've got no legitimate leg to stand on otherwise) are the purview of The Internationale; so I think we should rise above that.

I think you are spot on about the ideological rigidity of our enemies. I don't think it's appropriate to refer to the peacemakers of our region as pathetic. Forgiveness is divine; and as you pointed out one should never forget. Unfortunately, for any kind of diplomatic relationship between our two regions to exist and to work at this point, one would need total amnesia in order to stomach it :P
Maybe it is too personal, but that's simply my thoughts. I don't mean any sort of specific disrespect to anyone here in the DSA. I'm simply tired of unnecessary conflict in a community I've grown to like.

As for amnesia, heh..... I personally don't prefer it for my own reasons. What's done is done.
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Diederick Antonius
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Considering this thread has derailed sufficiently;
Misley
19 Dec 2013, 00:23
Suceavija
18 Dec 2013, 23:44
It is for this reason that an embassy with such a rouge ...
We're not ashamed of being Red. Except for the members that aren't, that is.
You're red? As in ginger? Nice...

*foreign relations +10*
Edited by Diederick Antonius, 22 Dec 2013, 13:46.
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Sodankyla
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Well well, here they are, proposing embassies. I stand on my position.
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