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| The Merits of Aiding a Desperate, Treacherous Enemy; Defending The Internationale - Solidarity with disagreeable comrades, or duped once again by our harassing bullies? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 21 Nov 2013, 16:57 (674 Views) | |
| Suceavija | 21 Nov 2013, 16:57 Post #1 |
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"House Chairman"
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I would like this to be a place for us to air our opinions, concerns, and grievances without restraint or fear of annihilation by NS moderators.
Edited by Suceavija, 21 Nov 2013, 17:18.
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The United Socialist States of Suceavija Founding Nation of the Suceavijan Commonwealth of Socialist Nations Resume - & - Factbook Regional Cartographer Eternal Defender and Advocate of the Democratic Socialist Assembly | |
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| Diederick Antonius | 22 Nov 2013, 00:49 Post #2 |
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"Party Leader"
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Like I have stated on our RMB and that of the Internationale, I think we did the right thing aiding our leftist comrades. Though we have had quite a lot of hostility towards each other, I think The Internationale is now far less of a force to be reckoned with than it was a year ago and may have grasped the idea of modesty. The conduct of their present WAD is also pleasant and appropriate. Freedom comes before political differences and, though they are an AntiFa region, I consider them fellow Defenders first, Raiders second. Besides, I would be one of the very few who would defend a Nazi region, which I hope illustrates that I greatly value the freedom to say and express what you want. What is regrettable is that NationStates as a game does not uphold these freedoms per se. Like I quoted before: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - E.B. Hall. And I well understand your weariness in our sudden commitment to this opponent, Suceavija. But we must be open for interaction, otherwise our relationship with them will never change (for the better). |
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Dictator in session for the Praetorian Council of the Praetorian Republic of Arcomo Former Secretary-General of the Democratic Socialist Assembly | |
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| Sodankyla | 23 Nov 2013, 00:27 Post #3 |
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"Activist"
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But of course, according to how the DSA handled this situation, the old topic of the UPFS's fall and the scapegoating as well as the topic of independent nations within the DSA defending fascist regions in the name of freedom of speech. Don't keep your hopes up too long, as these topics now need IMMEDIATE addressing again, as much as we hate it. The majority here decided to give it another chance, so here you go, try to work this out again. |
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| Diederick Antonius | 23 Nov 2013, 00:33 Post #4 |
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"Party Leader"
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Well, I'm not sure opening up those issues again is necessary. The fact that we help an enemy in their hour of need doesn't make them our ally all of a sudden. I would still oppose embassies with them, for now, and I do think their AntiFa activity is not compatible with the value we place on freedom of speech and expression. Fascists are the baddies, but they have a right to come together and discuss their sordid ideas on how the world should work, and even have a right to express their opinions to the outside world. Like a medic in a battlefield, it is inhumane to discriminate when people are acutely suffering and are in need of help. Even if they are the enemy. Besides, they may for the larger part be considered our opponent, but they are still lefties and surely, that means we have some significant common ground. And even if this turns out to be a bad move and we are, as Suceavija put it, "duped once again by our harassing bullies"; I doubt this will be something for them to gloat about. The Internationale is genuinely vulnerable at this time, and us helping them now doesn't seem like something they can brag about later. This shows our moral steadfastness, if anything. Especially considering our already weak opponent was even further weakened and we could have just let them rot. (so to speak) Finally, I think these concerns might be temporary, since I think this situation might destroy TI as a region. Their (very rational) fear of right-wing invasion, is already infringing on region member freedoms and whatever next step they will decide upon, will only further decrease freedom. Considering how destructive a refounding was for UPFS, I feel a worry that the same might happen to TI. Edited by Diederick Antonius, 23 Nov 2013, 00:44.
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Dictator in session for the Praetorian Council of the Praetorian Republic of Arcomo Former Secretary-General of the Democratic Socialist Assembly | |
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| Lemur Isles | 23 Nov 2013, 01:04 Post #5 |
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Charter Member
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But, the Internationale also has a much larger population than UPFS. As far as I could tell, they were pretty inactive anywhere, whereas TI seems to have a core group of active comrades. I also hope that in the future, (near or distant), we could become allies again. |
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| Sodankyla | 23 Nov 2013, 03:19 Post #6 |
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"Activist"
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I shall abide to passive aggressiveness. I also indeed understand many hard rightists would like to see them go down. So in a way, I can indeed see we were defending freedom of speech. HOWEVER. I refuse to have anymore with them until these situations are brought up again and they admit their inaccuracies and faults with a proper degree of humility. I will be honest when I say I think most here are being a little too nice to the internationale. When or if anyone here, or in the TI proposes further advances in interregional relations, I WILL bring this up whether anyone likes it or not. |
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| Suceavija | 23 Nov 2013, 23:24 Post #7 |
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"House Chairman"
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In contrast to the ideas floated about reopening old wounds, I'd rather these issues never be brought up again. Nothing positive ever comes of it. We enjoy such tranquility and happiness when they are not around. With their periodic invasions of the DSA comes turmoil, conflict, and bitterness. TI is the antithesis of solidarity and camaraderie among the left; and I'd argue that they should not be labeled as part of the left given the ways they abuse so many other leftists. I'd more fervently oppose the idea of future alliance, as was proposed earlier; but since that it is a fundamental impossibility anyway, it is not worth anyone's time explaining the guaranteed failure of such a venture. I'd rather we not attempt any relationship with them whatsoever. This is where I part with my dear friend Diederick on this matter. He is absolutely right in his idealism and principles; and I even deeply admire his willingness to stand up for the most undeserving individuals in NS who just a few weeks ago were denigrating all of us, sabotaging the solidarity between three long-standing leftist allies, and libeling his own UDL cause that, ironically, may now be the only thing still saving them from much-deserved obliteration. I am, however, ultimately ruled by pragmatism. I must believe and trust my observations and respond accordingly. I accept that some people in this world exist only for the sake of creating and perpetuating conflict and hatred, like TI does. We can continue to allow ourselves to be abused by them on a quarterly basis or we can finally stand up to our bullies. TI is demonstrably incapable of prolonged, rational diplomacy or of living up to any of its promises. They actually seem to delight in their deceitful conduct and utter lack of honor and integrity. They have in word and in deed demonstrated a seething contempt for our region, our charter, and our comrades on countless occasions. More importantly, they create a toxic environment in NS that I've witnessed causes people to move away, or to even drop out of the game entirely, because they get so sick of the arguing and the constant bullying and harassing that occurs every time TI invades the DSA to attack the leftists here. That's bad for all of us, no matter what our reasons are for being here, and benefits no one in the end. We as NS players should be outraged and should stop trying to save them and their caustic influence on the game we all enjoy. I think we missed a wonderful opportunity to shed some very toxic players from the game (even if just temporarily) just to appease a vile group of fascists-in-practice who will of course go on to stab us in the back and visit hostility upon our region when they no longer need our help. If they did not follow this one consistent pattern it would truly be an historic anomaly. They are hard-wired to hate and despise the leftist principles we value and practice here; which is why a peaceful relationship with them is a fantasy and pursuit of one is a profound waste of time and energy, as history bears out. Edited by Suceavija, 23 Nov 2013, 23:50.
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The United Socialist States of Suceavija Founding Nation of the Suceavijan Commonwealth of Socialist Nations Resume - & - Factbook Regional Cartographer Eternal Defender and Advocate of the Democratic Socialist Assembly | |
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| Diederick Antonius | 25 Nov 2013, 13:42 Post #8 |
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"Party Leader"
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I agree that we should not reopen the issues of the past concerning TI. The matters are settled and we know the damage TI, or at least some of their members, has caused in the Left (and the right) of NationStates. But unlike religion, I don't believe the inherent ideology of TI is responsible for their behaviour. Perhaps it is the lack of a clear ideology which derailed their conduct. Regions are made up of people, different individuals, who do what they will. I do think the situation can, in some time, be such that the necessary individuals have left or have become inactive; and therefore the region no longer contains the aspects that we now find so infuriating. I am opposed to relations with them at this time, like I've said before: there is too much bad stuff in history that is too recent. TI is not a person, it is a group of individuals, which is capable of changing. And I think we would do well to, in time, be open to consider the possibility that the necessary changes to TI and its membership have occurred, and we could in all consciousness negotiate positive relations. |
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Dictator in session for the Praetorian Council of the Praetorian Republic of Arcomo Former Secretary-General of the Democratic Socialist Assembly | |
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| Lemur Isles | 18 Dec 2013, 00:01 Post #9 |
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Charter Member
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It appears that the Internationale is writing up a Declaration of Gratitude and Solidarity in recognition of the aid several regions gave to the Internationale, including the DSA. It might be to early to say, and it hasn't passed yet, but if it does, I think it could be the beginning of a glorious new era in TI-DSA relations. They even propose creating embassies with us, which I am sure isn't something they would say lightly, considering our strained relationship in the past. It seems they genuinely appreciate what we are doing to help them, and willing to move past any grudges. If the Internationale can come forward bearing an olive branch, I think we are fully capable of accepting it gracefully. We shouldn't be sectarian or un-comradely! Yes, I think the Internationale have made mistakes, and have misspoken, however, I don't think we're all saints either. There have been times where people from both sides have been unnecessarily provocative, and made inflammatory statements in the heat of the moment. But, we need not dwell on this, and reopen old wounds. I suggest we simply agree to start afresh. Edited by Lemur Isles, 18 Dec 2013, 00:06.
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| Herrebrugh | 18 Dec 2013, 00:11 Post #10 |
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"Faction Leader"
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It has already passed, actually. |
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Getekend, Herrebrugh - Signed, Herrebrugh Eenheid, Vrijheid, Solidariteit | |
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