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linean taxonomy vs cladestics
Topic Started: Jun 15 2018, 12:33 PM (611 Views)
beingsneaky
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what are the advantages or disadvantages of one or the other and which one do you prefer to use and why
Edited by beingsneaky, Jun 16 2018, 05:47 PM.
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WaterWitch
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AFAIK linnaean taxonomy has no real advantages over cladistics, it tried putting everything into boxes which fell flat when we discovered animals evolve and that the nature of their taxonomy doesn't fit neatly into the boxes described by linnaean taxonomy.
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Dr Nitwhite
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Technically, both are systems of grouping organisms and are relatively useful at least when dealing with modern animals. Linnaean taxonomy isn't explicitly wrong, it's just a method of grouping organisms. It becomes incredibly difficult to rationalize, however, when prehistory is involved, and cladistics makes a lot more sense.

Cladistics simply gels really well with the current biological model, and so has been the default in modern science pretty much since it was developed (and you know, the reason it was developed). Linnaean taxonomy still does a decent job of putting modern animals in boxes, but in the grand scheme of things it falls apart and is, safe to say, outdated.

It should be noted that relatedness isn't necessarily the best way to classify an organism all the time. It may be useful, for instance, to group functionally similar organisms into groups when doing ecological work. But as far as I'm aware, this is never done outside specific projects nor is there an overarching system that does this. It may be interesting to see if such a system would be used or is useful, however.

But, as far as your spec project, which presumably deals with evolutionary change and post/prehistory, there is no reason to be using anything but cladistics.

EDIT- I noticed on the Serina page you were asking why Sheather still uses genus and species, these are still useful terms and can be used as clades themselves. There isn't an issue with using them, Binomial Nomenclature isn't bound to Linnaean taxonomy.
Edited by Dr Nitwhite, Jun 15 2018, 02:07 PM.
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Caesio16
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Why can't you then expanded that to higher ranking such as family order class and phylum etc
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Because it's never going to be enough names. It's putting bandaids on a fundamentally unworkable system.
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Archeoraptor
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different model of classification are used for different things, so no one is more useful than the other or at least is what they say
there is alos fenetics so....
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LittleLazyLass
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Linnaean holds up decently enough for modern animals - older scholars weren't dumber, they just didn't need a system accounting for stuff beyond that -, but it's still very arbitrary, and even with the clause of only looking at the modern day, it's got no real advantages compared to cladistics. On the other hand, once you throw evolution and a wider slice of time into the mix, it falls apart due to its poor ability to retain monophyly. Cladistics has no such issue adding in more time, so as a whole it's a nearly entirely superior system. Genera and species need to go too, they also fall apart on a large scale of time, but replacing them is a fall taller order.
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Tartarus
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LittleLazyLass
Jun 16 2018, 05:18 PM
Genera and species need to go too, they also fall apart on a large scale of time
While I can kinda see how a genus may be considered somewhat arbitrary, surely species is still a concept we should keep. After all, it still makes a lot of sense to refer to members of a population that can interbreed and consistently produce fertile offspring, as members of a species.
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IIGSY
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Here is a question. By what criteria do we make new classes/orders/whatever? Is it number of species? Probably not, as class insecta has more species than the entire phyla mollusca and chordata combined. Is it evolutionary distance? Again, probably not, as mygalomorphs (tarantulas, trap doors and co) and araneomorphs (nearly all other spiders) are considered to be in the same order despite them splitting from each other way before 'class mammalia' even existed. Some have chalked it down it how "distinctive" each group is, but this also falls apart quickly. Why are oribatids lumped in the same order as dust mites yet colugos get separated from primates?

All in all, this is an outdated system. Cladistics is superior.
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LittleLazyLass
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Jun 16 2018, 06:18 PM
LittleLazyLass
Jun 16 2018, 05:18 PM
Genera and species need to go too, they also fall apart on a large scale of time
While I can kinda see how a genus may be considered somewhat arbitrary, surely species is still a concept we should keep. After all, it still makes a lot of sense to refer to members of a population that can interbreed and consistently produce fertile offspring, as members of a species.
People don't even necessarily follow that concept of a species though. Nobody can agree on which species concept to follow. It fares even worse on an evolutionary scale - there's no way to have a first or last member of a species, drawing a boundary is impossible. Our very limited fossil record is the only way that species as a concept holds up at all.
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Dr Nitwhite
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While coming up with a definition of what a species in is incredibly difficult and probably impossible, the concept is incredibly useful. The idea doesn't need to go anywhere until we come up with something better, which I doubt we'll ever do.
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LittleLazyLass
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Eh, I'm sure someone will turn the concept on its head and make a new system eventually, but I won't hold my breath on it happening anytime soon.
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Archeoraptor
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the definition of a species is kinda arbitrary sometimes, I think genus ir mroe stable than species IMO
Astarte an alt eocene world,now on long hiatus but you never know
Fanauraa; The rebirth of Aotearoa future evo set in new zealand after a mass extinction
coming soon......a world that was seeded with earth´s weridest
and who knows what is coming next...........

" I have to know what the world will be looking throw a future beyond us
I have to know what could have been if fate acted in another way
I have to know what lies on the unknown universe
I have to know that the laws of thee universe can be broken
throw The Spec I gain strength to the inner peace
the is not good of evil only nature and change,the evolution of all livings beings"
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Tartarus
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Archeoraptor
Jun 17 2018, 02:52 AM
I think genus ir mroe stable than species IMO
How so?
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Dr Nitwhite
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Jun 18 2018, 12:39 AM
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Jun 17 2018, 02:52 AM
I think genus ir mroe stable than species IMO
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Yeah, wouldn't it be the other way round? At least people have come up with some semi-solid definitions for species, genera are totally arbitrary, at least that's my impression.
Edited by Dr Nitwhite, Jun 18 2018, 07:09 AM.
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ATTENDANCE DROPS DRASTICALLY ON SE SERVER
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Stay tuned, we'll be back with more at 11.
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