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linean taxonomy vs cladestics
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Topic Started: Jun 15 2018, 12:33 PM (613 Views)
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beingsneaky
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Jun 15 2018, 12:33 PM
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what are the advantages or disadvantages of one or the other and which one do you prefer to use and why
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WaterWitch
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Jun 15 2018, 01:28 PM
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Might manage to hold down a project some day
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AFAIK linnaean taxonomy has no real advantages over cladistics, it tried putting everything into boxes which fell flat when we discovered animals evolve and that the nature of their taxonomy doesn't fit neatly into the boxes described by linnaean taxonomy.
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Dr Nitwhite
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Jun 15 2018, 01:44 PM
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Technically, both are systems of grouping organisms and are relatively useful at least when dealing with modern animals. Linnaean taxonomy isn't explicitly wrong, it's just a method of grouping organisms. It becomes incredibly difficult to rationalize, however, when prehistory is involved, and cladistics makes a lot more sense.
Cladistics simply gels really well with the current biological model, and so has been the default in modern science pretty much since it was developed (and you know, the reason it was developed). Linnaean taxonomy still does a decent job of putting modern animals in boxes, but in the grand scheme of things it falls apart and is, safe to say, outdated.
It should be noted that relatedness isn't necessarily the best way to classify an organism all the time. It may be useful, for instance, to group functionally similar organisms into groups when doing ecological work. But as far as I'm aware, this is never done outside specific projects nor is there an overarching system that does this. It may be interesting to see if such a system would be used or is useful, however.
But, as far as your spec project, which presumably deals with evolutionary change and post/prehistory, there is no reason to be using anything but cladistics.
EDIT- I noticed on the Serina page you were asking why Sheather still uses genus and species, these are still useful terms and can be used as clades themselves. There isn't an issue with using them, Binomial Nomenclature isn't bound to Linnaean taxonomy.
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Caesio16
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Jun 16 2018, 02:49 PM
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Why can't you then expanded that to higher ranking such as family order class and phylum etc
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Abacaba
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Jun 16 2018, 03:08 PM
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Archeoraptor
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Jun 16 2018, 03:54 PM
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different model of classification are used for different things, so no one is more useful than the other or at least is what they say there is alos fenetics so....
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LittleLazyLass
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Jun 16 2018, 05:18 PM
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Linnaean holds up decently enough for modern animals - older scholars weren't dumber, they just didn't need a system accounting for stuff beyond that -, but it's still very arbitrary, and even with the clause of only looking at the modern day, it's got no real advantages compared to cladistics. On the other hand, once you throw evolution and a wider slice of time into the mix, it falls apart due to its poor ability to retain monophyly. Cladistics has no such issue adding in more time, so as a whole it's a nearly entirely superior system. Genera and species need to go too, they also fall apart on a large scale of time, but replacing them is a fall taller order.
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Tartarus
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Jun 16 2018, 06:18 PM
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- LittleLazyLass
- Jun 16 2018, 05:18 PM
Genera and species need to go too, they also fall apart on a large scale of time While I can kinda see how a genus may be considered somewhat arbitrary, surely species is still a concept we should keep. After all, it still makes a lot of sense to refer to members of a population that can interbreed and consistently produce fertile offspring, as members of a species.
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IIGSY
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Jun 16 2018, 06:30 PM
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Here is a question. By what criteria do we make new classes/orders/whatever? Is it number of species? Probably not, as class insecta has more species than the entire phyla mollusca and chordata combined. Is it evolutionary distance? Again, probably not, as mygalomorphs (tarantulas, trap doors and co) and araneomorphs (nearly all other spiders) are considered to be in the same order despite them splitting from each other way before 'class mammalia' even existed. Some have chalked it down it how "distinctive" each group is, but this also falls apart quickly. Why are oribatids lumped in the same order as dust mites yet colugos get separated from primates?
All in all, this is an outdated system. Cladistics is superior.
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Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
"He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH!
C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh
"RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little
"In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep.
Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh
"Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis
Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
More pictures
Other cool things
All African countries can fit into Brazil
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LittleLazyLass
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Jun 16 2018, 07:55 PM
Post #10
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Proud quilt in a bag
- Posts:
- 8,633
- Group:
- Global Mods
- Member
- #1,463
- Joined:
- Jun 18, 2014
- Area of expertise:
- Alternate Universes
- Nationality:
- Sorry, but why do you want to know aboot my nationality, eh? Uh... sorry, that was rude of me. Sorry.
- Favorite Quote:
- "you know you're a nerd when you search Wookieepedia for porn"
- Also known as:
- You can call me Little; full list of old names found through profile.
- Gender:
- Trans Questioning (see link in sig; feminine pronouns)
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- Tartarus
- Jun 16 2018, 06:18 PM
- LittleLazyLass
- Jun 16 2018, 05:18 PM
Genera and species need to go too, they also fall apart on a large scale of time
While I can kinda see how a genus may be considered somewhat arbitrary, surely species is still a concept we should keep. After all, it still makes a lot of sense to refer to members of a population that can interbreed and consistently produce fertile offspring, as members of a species. People don't even necessarily follow that concept of a species though. Nobody can agree on which species concept to follow. It fares even worse on an evolutionary scale - there's no way to have a first or last member of a species, drawing a boundary is impossible. Our very limited fossil record is the only way that species as a concept holds up at all.
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totally not British, b-baka!
You like me (Unlike) I don't even really like this song that much but the title is pretty relatable sometimes, I guess.
Me  Forum user Uncanny Gemstar drew what is supposed to be a me. Thanks! Spoiler: click to toggle As they walk in, they're greeted by a small, poorly kept pathway leading to a poorly constructed Japanese-style gate. Behind this, a small field made up of corn, rice, wheat, potatoes, among other plants is contrasted by large piles of books, as well as a few rather out of place looking laptops. Off in the corner, a small woman, with long, striped, and strikingly colorful socks, no shoes, unremarkable denim shorts, a large, fancy black coat, arm warmers, glasses, a tuque, and somewhat unkempt, mid-length blue-and-pink-streaked red hair, is rummaging through a trash bin, located behind a sign saying "employees only". She continues this for a while (walking behind a wall to change her outfit now and then), until one of her visitors coughs. Startled, she looks up, apologizes, and grabs a handful of textbooks and novels before daintily running off to join them. What, you want me to tell you what these mean? Predenterra The (Lost) Lost World The Standing World Read First Clarifications on my sex and genderSorry if I come off as rude, I don't put much thought into word choice sometimes. I'm also super prone to editing my posts, sometimes multiple times, in the minutes following posting. For the love of god, take my posts from my earlier days on the forum with a grain of salt. I was not particularly knowledgeable or mature back then. Some of them are so cringe-worthy I can't even bring myself to look at them. Words Maybe Great Words - Words To Spec By
-
It would have to be something extremely alien, pushing the limits of our imagination. But those are always my favorite kinds of life. ~~The Words of The Xenologist
- Words To Live By
-
Ignorance is never insulting if you're willing to learn, we're all ignorant about most things. ~~The Words of Lamna
- Words I Live By
-
Yeah, and even if you don't agree with creationists on that concept, that doesn't mean they can't be decent people. I have friends who are creationist (possibly even young earth) that I get along with fine in general life. I don't think they're right of course, but that doesn't make them intellectual degenerates. ~~The Words of forbidden3
Member Quotes - jman123
-
Ass-breathing fish-lizards? Sounds like a punk rock band
- Sheather
-
"Holy fucking shit a toilet paper roll! Our favorite thing!"
- Urufumarukai
-
Tyrannosaurus aquastronka
- Kamineigh
-
Myo, if you don't stop reading the YouTube comments...
- Lamna
-
Are you saying what I think you're saying?
Sheather bathes in cum?
- Cephylus
-
And last night I dreamed I was blowing up a Kindergarten with a grenade launcher for no particular reason...
- revin
-
Oh, and of course more people get killed by selfies than by sharks. Of course.
- Parasky
-
SHEEEEAAAAATTTTTTHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
- whachamacalit2
-
The smell of rotting flesh really kills my appetite, surprising, but the visual appearance of corpses makes me hungry. Is that weird?
- Ebervalius
-
I mean, let us say I'm a genderfluid blurflux demi-romantic woman who is sexually attracted to men, but only if they are Melanesian and have a voice like that of Nicholas Cage. Okay, so what?
- trex841
-
When I first saw that picture, I thought you were dissecting a condom.
- Mr Mysterio
-
All hail Robo-Stalin.
- Peashyjah
-
Seems like everything in this project is now dead.
- Stealth Rock
-
Seagulls are pretty much trees, right?
- Watcher
-
We all must finish chapters of our lives to go on to the next. Sometime this means leaving behind versions of ourselves that don't want to die.
- Yiqi15
-
For April fool's, we had to make an orgasm that resembled a human foot.
- Flisch
-
im the black market
- CaledonianWarrior96
-
He was a skater birb, she said tweet you later birb
- Most People at Some Point
-
Quotes - Some dude called plucas1 from Youtube comments
-
Funny, isn't it, that our world needs Clark Kent a lot more than Superman.
- Xenoblade Chronicles
-
Even though he is our creator, that does not afford him the right to take our lives on a whim. But that is the thinking of a homs. He is a god. Such morals cannot apply to gods. So you think we should just shut up and die?! If that is the fate decided by a god. You are mistaken if you think we will simply accept such a fate and wait to die. We'll never stop fighting. Not till the end. To Zanza, the outcome is the same. Thus your logic is flawed.
- Hades - Kid Icarus Uprising
-
When freaky aliens give you lemons, make freaky alien lemonade.
- Kid Icarus Uprising
-
But Souls are delicious. They're like bacon - they taste good on anything. But if you eat them, you completely remove them from existence! They can't move on or... or be reincarnated! Huh. I never really gave it much thought. Besides, what do you mean by reincarnation anyway? You know, being reborn as someone or something else. Which means different body, different memories, different experiences, yes? So isn't being reborn as "something else" the same as being "removed from existence"? I... I... eating souls isn't right! That depends on your definition of "right". All living things survive by eating other living things. So what? You're a god. You should be above all that! Gods are above living things, which doesn't necessarily mean we care about them.
- Some Dude on BBC Two
-
You are being shagged... by a flightless parrot.
Stuff
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Dr Nitwhite
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Jun 16 2018, 09:14 PM
Post #11
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- Posts:
- 1,603
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #1,919
- Joined:
- May 9, 2016
- Gender:
- Male
- Nationality:
- American
- Favorite Quote:
- "Hey, no ticks, no warblers." -me
- Also known as:
- The unburnt, unlucky in love, "oi you", and etcetera.
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While coming up with a definition of what a species in is incredibly difficult and probably impossible, the concept is incredibly useful. The idea doesn't need to go anywhere until we come up with something better, which I doubt we'll ever do.
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Speculative Evolution Projects- The Great Song (5 myh, North America is filled with giant coots, life in the clouds, and the songs of human descendants. One curious society has devoted itself to the study of this world) The Curious World of Laniakea (An endless world of islands, shallow seas, mangrove swamps, and reefs) Hidden Spring (A partner project between myself and Beetleboy- exploring a future where a twist of cosmic fate changes the planet forever)
Other Relevant Work-
Final SE Lifelist standings 1. Sayornis (82) 2. Dr Nitwhite (79) ↑ 3. Steampunk FireFinch (44) ↓ 4. The Dodo (26) 5. W.C.K.D (23) 6. Sphenodon (21) 7. Sheather (19) 8. Beetleboy (19) 9. Thylacine (16) 10. Monster (15) 11. HangingTheif (15) 12. Aptornis (13) 13. Stealth Rock (10) 14. KomradeWatcher (9) 15. lamna (7) 16. Flisch (5) 17. Olympianmaster (4) ↑ 18. Archipithecus (2) ↓ 19. Datura (1) ↓ 20. Giant Blue Anteater (1) ↓ 21. Kachimushi (1) BREAKING NEWS We interrupt your regular programming to bring you this cutting edge report. ATTENDANCE DROPS DRASTICALLY ON SE SERVER This past Monday on Discord, famous server Speculative Evolution took a hit in the attendance office when it's offline member list suddenly reappeared. Mods scrambled to rectify the situation, but unfortunately there was little anyone could do. Server member Ivan was asked what he thought of the situation. "So long as Flisch, lord of machines and scion of Urborg lives, all will be well". SE, (in)famous for it's eccentric userbase, has recently been spiraling downward, and now we have hard conformation of the decline. Moderator "High Lord" Icthyander states "There is nothing to be concerned about, Discord is merely changing its UI again", but members are beginning to suspect the honesty of their staff. Stay tuned, we'll be back with more at 11.
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LittleLazyLass
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Jun 16 2018, 09:22 PM
Post #12
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Proud quilt in a bag
- Posts:
- 8,633
- Group:
- Global Mods
- Member
- #1,463
- Joined:
- Jun 18, 2014
- Area of expertise:
- Alternate Universes
- Nationality:
- Sorry, but why do you want to know aboot my nationality, eh? Uh... sorry, that was rude of me. Sorry.
- Favorite Quote:
- "you know you're a nerd when you search Wookieepedia for porn"
- Also known as:
- You can call me Little; full list of old names found through profile.
- Gender:
- Trans Questioning (see link in sig; feminine pronouns)
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Eh, I'm sure someone will turn the concept on its head and make a new system eventually, but I won't hold my breath on it happening anytime soon.
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totally not British, b-baka!
You like me (Unlike) I don't even really like this song that much but the title is pretty relatable sometimes, I guess.
Me  Forum user Uncanny Gemstar drew what is supposed to be a me. Thanks! Spoiler: click to toggle As they walk in, they're greeted by a small, poorly kept pathway leading to a poorly constructed Japanese-style gate. Behind this, a small field made up of corn, rice, wheat, potatoes, among other plants is contrasted by large piles of books, as well as a few rather out of place looking laptops. Off in the corner, a small woman, with long, striped, and strikingly colorful socks, no shoes, unremarkable denim shorts, a large, fancy black coat, arm warmers, glasses, a tuque, and somewhat unkempt, mid-length blue-and-pink-streaked red hair, is rummaging through a trash bin, located behind a sign saying "employees only". She continues this for a while (walking behind a wall to change her outfit now and then), until one of her visitors coughs. Startled, she looks up, apologizes, and grabs a handful of textbooks and novels before daintily running off to join them. What, you want me to tell you what these mean? Predenterra The (Lost) Lost World The Standing World Read First Clarifications on my sex and genderSorry if I come off as rude, I don't put much thought into word choice sometimes. I'm also super prone to editing my posts, sometimes multiple times, in the minutes following posting. For the love of god, take my posts from my earlier days on the forum with a grain of salt. I was not particularly knowledgeable or mature back then. Some of them are so cringe-worthy I can't even bring myself to look at them. Words Maybe Great Words - Words To Spec By
-
It would have to be something extremely alien, pushing the limits of our imagination. But those are always my favorite kinds of life. ~~The Words of The Xenologist
- Words To Live By
-
Ignorance is never insulting if you're willing to learn, we're all ignorant about most things. ~~The Words of Lamna
- Words I Live By
-
Yeah, and even if you don't agree with creationists on that concept, that doesn't mean they can't be decent people. I have friends who are creationist (possibly even young earth) that I get along with fine in general life. I don't think they're right of course, but that doesn't make them intellectual degenerates. ~~The Words of forbidden3
Member Quotes - jman123
-
Ass-breathing fish-lizards? Sounds like a punk rock band
- Sheather
-
"Holy fucking shit a toilet paper roll! Our favorite thing!"
- Urufumarukai
-
Tyrannosaurus aquastronka
- Kamineigh
-
Myo, if you don't stop reading the YouTube comments...
- Lamna
-
Are you saying what I think you're saying?
Sheather bathes in cum?
- Cephylus
-
And last night I dreamed I was blowing up a Kindergarten with a grenade launcher for no particular reason...
- revin
-
Oh, and of course more people get killed by selfies than by sharks. Of course.
- Parasky
-
SHEEEEAAAAATTTTTTHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
- whachamacalit2
-
The smell of rotting flesh really kills my appetite, surprising, but the visual appearance of corpses makes me hungry. Is that weird?
- Ebervalius
-
I mean, let us say I'm a genderfluid blurflux demi-romantic woman who is sexually attracted to men, but only if they are Melanesian and have a voice like that of Nicholas Cage. Okay, so what?
- trex841
-
When I first saw that picture, I thought you were dissecting a condom.
- Mr Mysterio
-
All hail Robo-Stalin.
- Peashyjah
-
Seems like everything in this project is now dead.
- Stealth Rock
-
Seagulls are pretty much trees, right?
- Watcher
-
We all must finish chapters of our lives to go on to the next. Sometime this means leaving behind versions of ourselves that don't want to die.
- Yiqi15
-
For April fool's, we had to make an orgasm that resembled a human foot.
- Flisch
-
im the black market
- CaledonianWarrior96
-
He was a skater birb, she said tweet you later birb
- Most People at Some Point
-
Quotes - Some dude called plucas1 from Youtube comments
-
Funny, isn't it, that our world needs Clark Kent a lot more than Superman.
- Xenoblade Chronicles
-
Even though he is our creator, that does not afford him the right to take our lives on a whim. But that is the thinking of a homs. He is a god. Such morals cannot apply to gods. So you think we should just shut up and die?! If that is the fate decided by a god. You are mistaken if you think we will simply accept such a fate and wait to die. We'll never stop fighting. Not till the end. To Zanza, the outcome is the same. Thus your logic is flawed.
- Hades - Kid Icarus Uprising
-
When freaky aliens give you lemons, make freaky alien lemonade.
- Kid Icarus Uprising
-
But Souls are delicious. They're like bacon - they taste good on anything. But if you eat them, you completely remove them from existence! They can't move on or... or be reincarnated! Huh. I never really gave it much thought. Besides, what do you mean by reincarnation anyway? You know, being reborn as someone or something else. Which means different body, different memories, different experiences, yes? So isn't being reborn as "something else" the same as being "removed from existence"? I... I... eating souls isn't right! That depends on your definition of "right". All living things survive by eating other living things. So what? You're a god. You should be above all that! Gods are above living things, which doesn't necessarily mean we care about them.
- Some Dude on BBC Two
-
You are being shagged... by a flightless parrot.
Stuff
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Archeoraptor
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Jun 17 2018, 02:52 AM
Post #13
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- Posts:
- 1,102
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #1,356
- Joined:
- Mar 1, 2014
- Gender:
- Private
- Nationality:
- Español especulativo
- Favorite Quote:
- "god knows you will finally see,scars will heal but were meant to bleed
- Also known as:
- Archeo or that guy who misspells
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the definition of a species is kinda arbitrary sometimes, I think genus ir mroe stable than species IMO
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Astarte an alt eocene world,now on long hiatus but you never know Fanauraa; The rebirth of Aotearoa future evo set in new zealand after a mass extinction coming soon......a world that was seeded with earth´s weridest and who knows what is coming next...........
" I have to know what the world will be looking throw a future beyond us I have to know what could have been if fate acted in another way I have to know what lies on the unknown universe I have to know that the laws of thee universe can be broken throw The Spec I gain strength to the inner peace the is not good of evil only nature and change,the evolution of all livings beings" "
Spoiler: click to toggle coming soon......a world seeded by outcast clades and some important easily forgotten ones.the world of the caecilians and company and who knows what is coming next...........[comming soon/spoiler] Spoiler: click to toggle Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Lyvatan The Wise? I thought not. It’s not a story the newbies would tell you. It’s a forum legend. Lyvatan was an admin of the forum, so powerful and so wise he could use science to influence the human imagination to create life… He had such a knowledge of the forum that he could even keep the ones he cared about from leaving.Speculative Evolution is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. He became so powerful… the only thing he was afraid of was losing his admin power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice banned him while he was offline. Ironic. He could save others from leaving the community, but not himself.
Speccer´s Quotes "The moral of the story: never trust a catfish"-Bettleboy
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Tartarus
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Jun 18 2018, 12:39 AM
Post #14
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- Posts:
- 1,774
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #705
- Joined:
- Feb 1, 2012
- Gender:
- Male
- Nationality:
- Australian
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- Archeoraptor
- Jun 17 2018, 02:52 AM
I think genus ir mroe stable than species IMO How so?
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Dr Nitwhite
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Jun 18 2018, 07:01 AM
Post #15
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- Posts:
- 1,603
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #1,919
- Joined:
- May 9, 2016
- Gender:
- Male
- Nationality:
- American
- Favorite Quote:
- "Hey, no ticks, no warblers." -me
- Also known as:
- The unburnt, unlucky in love, "oi you", and etcetera.
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- Tartarus
- Jun 18 2018, 12:39 AM
- Archeoraptor
- Jun 17 2018, 02:52 AM
I think genus ir mroe stable than species IMO
How so? Yeah, wouldn't it be the other way round? At least people have come up with some semi-solid definitions for species, genera are totally arbitrary, at least that's my impression.
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Speculative Evolution Projects- The Great Song (5 myh, North America is filled with giant coots, life in the clouds, and the songs of human descendants. One curious society has devoted itself to the study of this world) The Curious World of Laniakea (An endless world of islands, shallow seas, mangrove swamps, and reefs) Hidden Spring (A partner project between myself and Beetleboy- exploring a future where a twist of cosmic fate changes the planet forever)
Other Relevant Work-
Final SE Lifelist standings 1. Sayornis (82) 2. Dr Nitwhite (79) ↑ 3. Steampunk FireFinch (44) ↓ 4. The Dodo (26) 5. W.C.K.D (23) 6. Sphenodon (21) 7. Sheather (19) 8. Beetleboy (19) 9. Thylacine (16) 10. Monster (15) 11. HangingTheif (15) 12. Aptornis (13) 13. Stealth Rock (10) 14. KomradeWatcher (9) 15. lamna (7) 16. Flisch (5) 17. Olympianmaster (4) ↑ 18. Archipithecus (2) ↓ 19. Datura (1) ↓ 20. Giant Blue Anteater (1) ↓ 21. Kachimushi (1) BREAKING NEWS We interrupt your regular programming to bring you this cutting edge report. ATTENDANCE DROPS DRASTICALLY ON SE SERVER This past Monday on Discord, famous server Speculative Evolution took a hit in the attendance office when it's offline member list suddenly reappeared. Mods scrambled to rectify the situation, but unfortunately there was little anyone could do. Server member Ivan was asked what he thought of the situation. "So long as Flisch, lord of machines and scion of Urborg lives, all will be well". SE, (in)famous for it's eccentric userbase, has recently been spiraling downward, and now we have hard conformation of the decline. Moderator "High Lord" Icthyander states "There is nothing to be concerned about, Discord is merely changing its UI again", but members are beginning to suspect the honesty of their staff. Stay tuned, we'll be back with more at 11.
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