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ideas of how a flying cephalopod could exist
Topic Started: Jun 11 2018, 05:16 PM (398 Views)
beingsneaky
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here are some of my ideas of how a flying cephalopod

for how the creature would breathe i would imagine it would do it through their skin (kinda like frogs and salamanders)

and for how the creature itself could fly i imagine it uses it's mantel to glide across thermal updrafts and it uses a "skeleton" to support the mantel the "skeleton" is probably derived from an internal shell

so then how else do you think a flying cephalopod could exist but you can also talk about how other mollusk can achieve flight too
Edited by beingsneaky, Jun 11 2018, 05:52 PM.
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Tartarus
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Having a skeleton derived from the internal shell is an idea I've long considered to be a possible way of getting terrestrial cephalopods to work. Their dermal structures could also potentially be derived into something that could help support their bodies on land. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod_dermal_structures

As for a flying cephalopod, I suppose if one could get terrestrial cephalopods then perhaps some of them could have the flaps on their mantle evolve into wings.
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beingsneaky
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Jun 11 2018, 05:54 PM
Having a skeleton derived from the internal shell is an idea I've long considered to be a possible way of getting terrestrial cephalopods to work.
it looks like creative minds think alike
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beingsneaky
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found an article that may help https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod
Edited by beingsneaky, Jun 11 2018, 07:05 PM.
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IIGSY
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You don't need an internal skeleton to be terrestrial. Cephalopods can work as small slug like creatures on land. With regard to flying though, I'm not sure. Maybe gliding could work
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beingsneaky
Jun 11 2018, 05:16 PM
here are some of my ideas of how a flying cephalopod

for how the creature would breathe i would imagine it would do it through their skin (kinda like frogs and salamanders)

and for how the creature itself could fly i imagine it uses it's mantel to glide across thermal updrafts and it uses a "skeleton" to support the mantel the "skeleton" is probably derived from an internal shell

so then how else do you think a flying cephalopod could exist but you can also talk about how other mollusk can achieve flight too
I don't personally think they could be skin breathers except in very warm, humid habitats.

I could be wrong about this, but this is my thinking on it. If you're in a fast moving car next to an open window you feel a wind. This wind is stripping moisture from your body. You're a mammal, your skin may be porous but it's pretty watertight. It keeps your fluids inside and you don't need to be damp for breathing to work, so this is a non-consequence. However if a salamander were sitting in the same place, the water in it's skin would dry out faster, so the salamander would need to secrete more of it's water-based slime faster. It might not necessarily suffocate but drying out is a real risk. Having to return to water all the time to rehydrate would be such an energy and time sink it would be better off not flying. What are your thoughts on this? Let me know if I'm getting any facts wrong.

I don't think it would completely forbid flying, but I think being a skin-breather would limit possible duration and total daily air time. Some frogs can have drier skin and adaptations to prevent drying, but not on the same level as amniotes. Something to consider though that might make me wrong about this is how comparable is this to the moisture lost from lungs? I feel like it would be more but I don't actually know. Skin breathing also isn't that efficient, I think skin breathing would be gradually and then eventually completely replaced by breath intake and exhale after a while (thinking about squids in particular). Maybe some modification of the siphon into a lung?

I think water -> gliding is quite possible, but I think it would have to be water -> land -> powered flight, because I think to endure aerial conditions would require a period of general adaptation to open-air first.

I could see a skeleton evolving from something like the cuttlefish's cuttlebone. It's a nice lightweight material for a terrestrial going on flying animal. I know it's a bit brittle when dry, but still seems quite strong. What's it like when fresh out the animal I'm not sure. Could small, intricate skeletal parts be formed from it? No idea, but it would be good to know.

I did some scribbles while thinking of ideas but not sure if they'll be of any help, they're just vague ideas.
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beingsneaky
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SpeculativeNebula
Jun 12 2018, 05:30 AM
I don't think it would completely forbid flying, but I think being a skin-breather would limit possible duration and total daily air time. Some frogs can have drier skin and adaptations to prevent drying, but not on the same level as amniotes. Something to consider though that might make me wrong about this is how comparable is this to the moisture lost from lungs? I feel like it would be more but I don't actually know. Skin breathing also isn't that efficient, I think skin breathing would be gradually and then eventually completely replaced by breath intake and exhale after a while (thinking about squids in particular). Maybe some modification of the siphon into a lung?

I think water -> gliding is quite possible, but I think it would have to be water -> land -> powered flight, because I think to endure aerial conditions would require a period of general adaptation to open-air first.


I did some scribbles while thinking of ideas but not sure if they'll be of any help, they're just vague ideas.
1. yea i guess using a siphon to breath would make a lot more sense but doing that will have to go through some modification to become air breathers and the biggest one is being modified to inhale O2 from the air so i guess an evolution of a normal cephalopod breathing system to a flying/land dwelling cephalopod breathing system would be something like normal cephalopod breathing system --> using the skin to breathe and the siphon as a primitive "lung" --> cephalopods become more reliant on the "lung-like siphon" and less on the skin and thus the "lung-like siphon" becomes more adapted to breathing in and out air

2. nice drawings
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Tartarus
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IIGSY
Jun 11 2018, 10:53 PM
You don't need an internal skeleton to be terrestrial. Cephalopods can work as small slug like creatures on land. With regard to flying though, I'm not sure. Maybe gliding could work
But the point of these concepts is not just a cephalopod that's terrestrial in the most basic sense, but terrestrial cephalopods that can do a whole lot more than just crawling around like slugs. In this case, cephalopods that can fly.
On gliding, this is not really flying unless one is using the term "flying" to just refer to any means of moving through the air for any amount of time. To get a truly flying cephalopod, as opposed to a gliding one, some sort of internal support would likely be needed in order for the wings to be firm enough to provide enough lift to fly (unless of course it is a ballont that flies like a balloon rather than like any winged thing, though flying with wings is probably a lot simpler and more convenient to evolve).
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IIGSY
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Tartarus
Jun 12 2018, 07:49 PM
IIGSY
Jun 11 2018, 10:53 PM
You don't need an internal skeleton to be terrestrial. Cephalopods can work as small slug like creatures on land. With regard to flying though, I'm not sure. Maybe gliding could work
But the point of these concepts is not just a cephalopod that's terrestrial in the most basic sense, but terrestrial cephalopods that can do a whole lot more than just crawling around like slugs. In this case, cephalopods that can fly.
On gliding, this is not really flying unless one is using the term "flying" to just refer to any means of moving through the air for any amount of time. To get a truly flying cephalopod, as opposed to a gliding one, some sort of internal support would likely be needed in order for the wings to be firm enough to provide enough lift to fly (unless of course it is a ballont that flies like a balloon rather than like any winged thing, though flying with wings is probably a lot simpler and more convenient to evolve).
Insects didn't need any internal support to evolve wings
Projects
Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates
Last one crawling: The last arthropod

ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)

Potential ideas-
Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized.
Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal.
Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.

Quotes


Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups


In honor of the greatest clade of all time


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Gliding squids already exist, but not flying ones.

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Flying doesn't necessarily mean terrestrial, as long as they're capable of powered flight I'd consider them flying creatures even if they spend their life in/above the ocean rather than on/above land. From this I can easily picture a species of oceanic squid which flies above the surface of the water so that it's prey, that being surface-level fish, don't notice it travel as easily.

A combination of a double-ended siphon pump to provide the initial thrust, and derived "wings" to provide additional propulsion in the air is entirely possible (there are gliding cephalopods currently, but they aren't capable of powered flight in the air, these would at least to some noticeable degree).
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beingsneaky
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Jun 12 2018, 09:49 PM
Flying doesn't necessarily mean terrestrial, as long as they're capable of powered flight I'd consider them flying creatures even if they spend their life in/above the ocean rather than on/above land. From this I can easily picture a species of oceanic squid which flies above the surface of the water so that it's prey, that being surface-level fish, don't notice it travel as easily.

A combination of a double-ended siphon pump to provide the initial thrust, and derived "wings" to provide additional propulsion in the air is entirely possible (there are gliding cephalopods currently, but they aren't capable of powered flight in the air, these would at least to some noticeable degree).
thanks for your insight bob
Edited by beingsneaky, Jun 12 2018, 10:28 PM.
user quotes:

"pee is stored in the balls" - Ebervalius

"Young ciliaurrg grow on the rear of the parent and look like small slurrg." - ZoologicalBotanist

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Well, flying squid certainly aren't powered fliers in the traditional sense, but they're not just barebones gliders either. They have jet propulsion, and from what little we know, there is a certainly level of active motion of the fins during different points of the jump. This National Geographic article talks about it a bit, and this Scientific American article says there's even anecdotal evidence they flap. Anyway, it may well be gliding, but it's very polished gliding, and the jet is by definition a form of powered propulsion. I say it wouldn't take to much - a more powerful jet and a more specialized pair of fins - to facilitate a basic form of true powered flight, albeit one with a quite strict time limit.

The issue, I feel, is there's little reason this would actually evolve, at least at the moment. Going in the air is a good way to escape danger, but it's also a good way to land on a boat, and the further you specialize to it, the more you're going to vulnerable in the water, which is still the primary habitat. Additionally, there's no real source of food in the air, so that's gonna hold them back, they have to hunt well and feed underwater. Birds are up there, but the bigger a squid gets, the harder flying is going to be. If some sort of true flying fish ever evolves, then I think flying squid could well follow behind them.
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Jun 17 2018, 07:31 PM
Well, flying squid certainly aren't powered fliers in the traditional sense, but they're not just barebones gliders either. They have jet propulsion, and from what little we know, there is a certainly level of active motion of the fins during different points of the jump. This National Geographic article talks about it a bit, and this Scientific American article says there's even anecdotal evidence they flap. Anyway, it may well be gliding, but it's very polished gliding, and the jet is by definition a form of powered propulsion. I say it wouldn't take to much - a more powerful jet and a more specialized pair of fins - to facilitate a basic form of true powered flight, albeit one with a quite strict time limit.

The issue, I feel, is there's little reason this would actually evolve, at least at the moment. Going in the air is a good way to escape danger, but it's also a good way to land on a boat, and the further you specialize to it, the more you're going to vulnerable in the water, which is still the primary habitat. Additionally, there's no real source of food in the air, so that's gonna hold them back, they have to hunt well and feed underwater. Birds are up there, but the bigger a squid gets, the harder flying is going to be. If some sort of true flying fish ever evolves, then I think flying squid could well follow behind them.
Potentially, for the (very difficult to achieve) freshwater squids that seem to inhabit so many spec projects, it could serve as a means of getting from one freshwater body to another.
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