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Sapient Species of Earth?
Topic Started: Feb 2 2018, 12:08 AM (757 Views)
Scrublord
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When you say that all of those species are "sapient" do you mean that they are all sapient in the same way that humans are--i.e. capable of forming a civilization? How far should we go in recognizing the sapience of the aforementioned species? Would stricter animal welfare laws be enough, or should we go all-out and give chimpanzees seats at the UN?

That said, I question the inclusion of octopuses on this list. They're smart, sure. . . by invertebrate standards. As ZeFrank put it, "It's not like there's tons of competition. I mean, clams are stupid."
Edited by Scrublord, Feb 2 2018, 04:51 PM.
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IIGSY
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Scrublord
Feb 2 2018, 04:47 PM
When you say that all of those species are "sapient" do you mean that they are all sapient in the same way that humans are--i.e. capable of forming a civilization? How far should we go in recognizing the sapience of the aforementioned species? Would stricter animal welfare laws be enough, or should we go all-out and give chimpanzees seats at the UN?

That said, I question the inclusion of octopuses on this list. They're smart, sure. . . by invertebrate standards. As ZeFrank put it, "It's not like there's tons of competition. I mean, clams are stupid."
There is no such thing as "invertebrate standards". I know I've said this plenty of times, but most "invertebrate" phyla are as different from each other as they are from vertebrates (sometimes more so).
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Scrublord
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Meant to say "by mollusk standards".
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Tartarus
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Out of all the species on the list, the only ones I'd really consider sapient would be Homo sapiens. Though I can see how many of the other species on the list could be seen as intelligent enough to blur the line between what is and isn't a sapient being.
On the cetaceans and parrots, why the specific selection of species? What makes those particular species stand out from other cetacean species and parrot species not on the list?
On the cephalopods, I'm not sure why they are even included at all. I mean yes cephalopods are considered the smartest of all invertebrates. But considering other invertebrates generally have little to nothing in the way of what we could consider any form of intelligence, is that really saying all that much? Is it really enough to consider cephalopods anywhere close to being sapient?

Flisch
 
At any rate, you could look into manta rays. I'm not sure if they fully meet the criteria you listed*, but at least they passed the mirror test.


Really? Where can I learn more about this?
It also does make me wonder, why mantas would even be so intelligent. Seeing as they live as filter feeders I'm wondering what in their lives would even require all that much intelligence.

Scrublord
 
sapient in the same way that humans are--i.e. capable of forming a civilization?


No, whether one can form a civilisation or not has nothing whatsoever to do with whether one is sapient. Many human cultures never formed civilisations due to not having any of the right conditions in place for them to both want to do so and be actually able to do so. Yet they were still just as sapient as those who did form civilisations.
Also, imagine if you will, some sapient alien race living in an environment not conducive to developing any agriculture or high populations. Or perhaps a race whose biology severely restricts what it can achieve (e.g. an aquatic race that will never be able to develop fire). Would the lack of civilisation make them any less sapient? Of course not.
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LittleLazyLass
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My favorite example for a sapient without civilization would something akin to Sasquatch.

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On the cetaceans and parrots, why the specific selection of species? What makes those particular species stand out from other cetacean species and parrot species not on the list?

Not sure about the other two, but African grey parrot was definitely chosen because it is the most proficient at learning and mimicking human speech. According to Wikipedia, they are of a similar cognitive level to six year old children at "some tasks". One named Alex in particular became famous for his training in such areas and use in various tests that showed us just how smart parrots are.
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Terraraptor411
Feb 2 2018, 11:02 AM
Rodlox
Feb 2 2018, 03:55 AM
Terraraptor411
Feb 2 2018, 12:08 AM
I realize this is a highly debated topic and difficult to pin down. There are going to be different definitions and opinions on what it means to be sapient/ a sophont. I understand that. However, this isn't to finalize a rigid definition, but to compose a list of the species in real life here on Earth that have strong arguments for sapience. It will by no means be perfect, but I'm hoping if many people contribute we can get a decent and somewhat accurate list.

Note that some domestic species, like Dogs, that could potentially qualify were excluded due to their intelligence being at its highest in human environments. AKA a specialized habitat. Wild and feral dogs often lack these traits.
hmm,,,hasn't it been established that its either "so long and thanks for all the fish" or "and I hope that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space, 'cause there's bugger all down here on earth" ?


Could you explain that more? I'm not sure what you mean by that.

I hope there's intelligent life out in space, 'cause there's bugger-all down here on Earth

So long and thanks for all the fish
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Flisch
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Tartarus
Feb 2 2018, 06:30 PM
Flisch
 
At any rate, you could look into manta rays. I'm not sure if they fully meet the criteria you listed*, but at least they passed the mirror test.


Really? Where can I learn more about this?
It also does make me wonder, why mantas would even be so intelligent. Seeing as they live as filter feeders I'm wondering what in their lives would even require all that much intelligence.
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Terraraptor411
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Feb 2 2018, 11:41 AM
so as a kid in an aquarium somehow, I don´t rememeber it very well is mostly what I was told and teh fact I know it happenned(there is a photo somewhere too) but basically, I started making weird noises and sounds (bc you know kids) trying to imitate the beluga and then the beluga stranded in front of me on the other side of the glass and produced noises too and so I did. this sound really weird but maaaaybe we tried somehow to communicate with each other?


Thats actually pretty well documented for Belugas, they are extremely vocal. Interspecies communication is often simpler and more common than one would think, just you playing with the Beluga was probably very mentally stimulating for it. Its not a shared language or anything, but you did communicate with it in a play behavior!

lamna
Feb 2 2018, 03:55 PM
Tool use was once the cornerstone of determining what was intelligent or not. Now it seems we can't got a month without another example of animals using tools. And should that be surprising? I mean, how is intricately woven nest or complex termite mount any different than a tool?

Obviously, chimp culture is different to finches with cactus spines, but tool use alone doesn't seem like something of particular merit.

I'm not certain, but I'm pretty sure cephlopod intelligence gets inflated in the public imagination. But are they actually an especially intelligent animal, or are they just intelligent for an invertebrate?


I agree 100%. Tool use isn't a good indicator of intelligence most of the time. That's why I didn't include it as a qualifier, instead tool building, which is a bit more complex. A vulture can break an egg on a rock, but Chimps will actively seek out rocks of a certain size/shape, or break an existing rock to meet their needs. I think thats a notable difference.

Stay tuned, your not the only one to to bring up cephalopod intelligence and I'm making a response about it.
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Terraraptor411
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Firstly I want to say I'm glad people are contributing and discussing things here. I can't always respond to everyone but I'll try my best.

Scrublord
Feb 2 2018, 04:47 PM
When you say that all of those species are "sapient" do you mean that they are all sapient in the same way that humans are--i.e. capable of forming a civilization? How far should we go in recognizing the sapience of the aforementioned species? Would stricter animal welfare laws be enough, or should we go all-out and give chimpanzees seats at the UN?

That said, I question the inclusion of octopuses on this list. They're smart, sure. . . by invertebrate standards. As ZeFrank put it, "It's not like there's tons of competition. I mean, clams are stupid."


No, not in the same way humans are. Intelligence is a scale of course, and while a civilzation is a great sign of intelligence, its not the only marker. Personally I go by altruism, complex social interactions, learned behavior passed from one generation to another, unique dialects among populations, and other factors that could have been applied to pre-agricultural humans. I think full legal protection would be nice to other recognized species, though defining that is still a problem. I'm more the stricter animal welfare laws type, however if in thousands of years we establish a way to effectively communicate with chimps and other sapients, their representation would probably be in order. We're a long way from that though.

Tartarus
Feb 2 2018, 06:30 PM
Out of all the species on the list, the only ones I'd really consider sapient would be Homo sapiens. Though I can see how many of the other species on the list could be seen as intelligent enough to blur the line between what is and isn't a sapient being.
On the cetaceans and parrots, why the specific selection of species? What makes those particular species stand out from other cetacean species and parrot species not on the list?
On the cephalopods, I'm not sure why they are even included at all. I mean yes cephalopods are considered the smartest of all invertebrates. But considering other invertebrates generally have little to nothing in the way of what we could consider any form of intelligence, is that really saying all that much? Is it really enough to consider cephalopods anywhere close to being sapient?


I respect your opinion on the matter, I knew when making this not everyone would agree, and thats ok. We humans are biased in favor of us of course, but until we establish accurate ways to communicate with other species on a regular basis, determining their sapience is very difficult. The line is already blurred.

I'm glad you asked! The major reason those cetaceans and parrots are on the list right now is that they were the first I looked into and researched XD. I'm still going through families looking for evidence of sapience in other species, and these are the ones I felt confident enough to put on the list so far. Otherwise, they were chosen due to their previously studied acts of intelligence. Bottlenose Dolphins and Orca's are well documented in the mental abilities. False Killer Whales have shown similar behavior to dolphins, including interspecies cooperative hunting with bottlenose, complex family bonds, and altruism towards humans in peril. The Tucuxi dolphin is the least qualified on this list, mostly here due to an abnormally high EQ of 4.67. Added with the fact that most cetaceans are highly intelligent made me include it. I realize EQ on its own is never an accurate way to measure intellect, but given the order it belongs to I felt it worth mentioning. Belugas for many of the reasons above, along with having very complex "language" among them. Humpnack whales were added specifically for their acts of altruism, so frequent and odd they likely aren't misconstrued maternal insticnts. They often rescure seals, sea lions, dolphins, other whale calves, and humans from nearby predators like sharks and orcas.

Someone else explained the African Grey parrot, thank you! The Palm Cockatoo was added because someone informed me of their unique tool building, musical mating displays. Males will pick a stick of specific size and quality, and bang it on acoustic materials like hollow logs to attract females. Afterwards, the tools are repurposed as nesting materials. The Kea was chosen because of its adaptability through intelligence. Despite being a New Zealand species, its range has remain unchanged, or even increased, with human introduction, as they quickly adapted to human food sources. In lab tests they have shown great ingenuity in the face of new puzzles and traps, they live in social groups, and even occasionally partake in cooperative pack hunting. I felt it was enough to make them stand out.


To answer the question Cephalopods that many people have brought up so far, I have to admit their inclusion was iffy for me as well. I realize their intelligence is often overblown, simply due to their outclassing every other invertebrate in terms of intelligence. Which isn't as impressive, as most show little adaptive intelligence, and "invertebrates" are such a large and diverse group that comparing all of them isn't really fair. Octopi generally have slightly above average intelligence compared to mammals and birds, impressive but not a garuntee of sapience. The reason I included those three species was for the following reasons:

1: The coconut octopus is known for using various objects as portable shelters, usually coconuts but it can use anything similar. They've also been observed modifying existing objects slightly to meet their needs. Finally, not all coconut octopi show this behavior, as it seems to be learned through observation.

2: All three species have been observed learning new behaviors by watching other octopi or even humans. They can learn to open new traps by watching a more experienced cephalopod do it, then mimic the behavior. This, combined with common and giant octopi observing and predicting human behavior in order to escape aquariums and even enter others made me think highly of their brainpower.

If this isn't enough by most peoples standards of sapience, I'll remove them. These factors made me consider them, but this list is always a WIP and can change.
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