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My issues with the T rex skin study; WARNING: you have entered rant zone
Topic Started: Oct 30 2017, 07:44 AM (1,656 Views)
Dragonthunders
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I fail to see what exactly this has to do with the physiological capability of feathers to grow alongside scales?

My bad, I thought the answer to the previous argument was that plumage on a T.rex could be quite extensive as the Barn owl.
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TAXESbutNano
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LittleWitch
Oct 31 2017, 02:04 PM
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And I'm pretty sure it's universally agreed that Yutyrannus lived in a cooler, drier environment than T.rex did, even ignoring the size and cladistical discrepancy.

Cooler yes, but the Jehol ecosystem was based largely around lakes, was it not?
Wouldn't a cool and wet environment be different to a warm and humid environment? Feathers would provide insulation from higher-conductivity cold rain by keeping it off the skin, which is an advantage for a slender animal like Yutyrannus; but a big, barrel-shaped Tyrannosaurus in a tropical ecosystem would probably benefit more from being able to lose heat via non-insulating, increased-surface-area pebble-skin whenever the opportunity was available (e.g rain, shade, darkness).
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Kamidio
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Mao
Oct 31 2017, 11:27 AM
well. at the end of the day. i'll still keep my beliefs, and you can keep yours. there's no point in this argument.
Then why did you start a thread just to rant about the topic?
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Lowry
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Mao
Oct 31 2017, 11:27 AM
well. at the end of the day. i'll still keep my beliefs, and you can keep yours. there's no point in this argument.
Sorry to be a nuisance and putting my sense of morality and common curtesy first against my better sense to leave this comment be but can I just say how hypocritical it is to say something like this? You expressed your opinions on the topic of scaled dinosaurs within another thread, which got heated and argumentative over the subject. Yet you still had the audacity to move your opinion into a separate thread and kick things off all over again.

This to me shows there polar opposite of what this quote seems to say. If you do not have the maturity or common decency to commit to arguing your viewpoint once you state it or at least see the flaws in your own argument then you shouldn't be making threads on said topic areas at all.

This comment shows a lack of maturity and quite frankly I find it rather rude. It's not what I want to see in this community. Book your ideas up.
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peashyjah
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DIOneigh
Oct 31 2017, 05:08 PM
Mao
Oct 31 2017, 11:27 AM
well. at the end of the day. i'll still keep my beliefs, and you can keep yours. there's no point in this argument.
Then why did you start a thread just to rant about the topic?
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Tartarus
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Mao
Oct 31 2017, 05:27 AM
It's because scales are an oddity (ish) in dinosaurs. it makes sense for an herbivore that needs scales to defend itself, but a carnivore?
But dinosaur scales are not an oddity. As I already pointed out before, fossil evidence for scales has been found in multiple different dinosaur groups, showing that scaly dinosaurs were in fact quite ordinary. Of course there were many feathery dinosaurs too but this hardly invalidates the clear existence of dinosaur scales.
The whole thing about scales being for herbivores rather than carnivores makes no sense considering how many scaly carnivores there are. Things like crocodiles, snakes and monitor lizards are all examples of scaly carnivores alive today and from the fossil record we find many more examples. Also, if I recall correctly scales were originally more for retaining water than for defense. Indeed, I'd only call scales armour in some cases, such as the scaly scutes of crocodiles. In most cases scaly skin seems to offer little to no more protection than bare skin does.

Mao
 
I find that people are somewhat leaning towards a dinosaur that does prove that non coelosaurians had feathers...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulindadromeus

yeah, this thing, with advanced feathers (which it probably evolved independantly) and has scaly areas. this proves that pretty much most dinosaurs could've had feathers or fillaments. and even pterosaurs, like an undescribed tapejarid, seem to show branching filaments, along with sordes and aurognathus, which have normal looking pycnofibres.

this means it's probable that all ornithodirans were fluffy.

Kulindadromeus had some sort of keratinous filaments on its body but there is still nothing to conclusively show that these shared ancestry to feathers as opposed to being a separately evolved integument. The same can be said for pterosaur pycnofibres.
And no, it was not probable that all ornithodirans were fluffy. Even the most pro-fluffy arguments have never insisted on this. For example, I've yet to see any arguments at all for fluffy sauropods. There were certainly a fair number of fluffy dinosaurs and other fluffy ornithodirans but it was hardly universal among them.

For the record, I am generally on the pro-fluffy side of the debate and I am not opposed to the idea that some sort of fluffy integument could be basal to ornithodirans (though it would have been later lost in many of them) but there is still not enough evidence to say with any confidence that this is how it is.
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Archipithecus
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About the argument that T. rex didn't need armor, don't we have multiple cases of potential intraspecific conflict? And a whole bunch of other signs that T. rex lived a really rough-and-tumble lifestyle? That seems like a situation where armor would be handy.
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LittleLazyLass
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And no, it was not probable that all ornithodirans were fluffy. Even the most pro-fluffy arguments have never insisted on this. For example, I've yet to see any arguments at all for fluffy sauropods. There were certainly a fair number of fluffy dinosaurs and other fluffy ornithodirans but it was hardly universal among them.
He means Ornithodira being ancestrally fluffy, which a lot of people do support.
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Mao
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What i'm saying is why would a giant carnivorous fuzzy animal evolve extensive scales? You don't see many scales in real life unless the animal is very specialized

and may I also bring up that Lepidosaurs or Crocodiles are not even Ornithodirans to start with? their scales are ancestral to them, whereas fuzz was ancestral to Ornithodirans.

Oh and if we're gonna bring up the elephant heat issue, then why not explain something else?

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that's what I think a t rex would probably look like integument wise, with scales (although iirc armadillos have osteoderms) and long feathers under it. Is it possible that it just had a coat of scales around the top of the body, and feathers at the bottom?
Edited by Mao, Nov 1 2017, 05:17 AM.
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TAXESbutNano
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You yourself said it- rex skin looks more like rhino skin (and other bald structures e.g chicken wattle) than it does scales. That sort of bald skin is very common in both mammalian megafauna and hardened bird-wattle skin, unlike scales.
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Mao
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TAXESbutNano
Nov 1 2017, 06:36 AM
You yourself said it- rex skin looks more like rhino skin (and other bald structures e.g chicken wattle) than it does scales. That sort of bald skin is very common in both mammalian megafauna and hardened bird-wattle skin, unlike scales.
Your right. If you can't tell, i'm kinda in between when it comes to if its scales or not. i'm still debating my opinion.
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Mao
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well. I'm done with this. I wish we could delete our own posts, because this doesen't seem to go anywhere.

I'll make a post instead that explains what kind of integument dinosaurs had.
As of my gender, I have every gender imaginable, some even inconceivable to your minds. I have every gender in the gender spectrum, as well as ones you cannot envision.
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Lowry
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Mao
Nov 1 2017, 07:28 AM
well. I'm done with this. I wish we could delete our own posts, because this doesen't seem to go anywhere.

I'll make a post instead that explains what kind of integument dinosaurs had.
No. We do not need that post nor do any of us want that post, you are dragging out a needless argument, please stop. We all have our own opinions on dinosaur integument and no offense but I doubt you'll do justice to all of our beliefs in an entirely neutral fashion. I'm not trying to be offensive but quite frankly I don't care about your personal opinion and would much rather see the views of all individuals on the topic, because to me I can make a much more informed decision about my own beliefs based on a broader group of others, not just your own over-rated, ego-inflated opinion.
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Mao
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Lowry
Nov 1 2017, 08:29 AM
because to me I can make a much more informed decision about my own beliefs based on a broader group of others, not just your own over-rated, ego-inflated opinion.
Lowry, just stop. your starting to pull a Glarn on us if you continue.

And tell me how my opinion is "overrated" and "ego-inflated"

I just hate how just discussing integument is like discussing politics or religion. we're all just arguing about my beliefs.
Edited by Mao, Nov 1 2017, 11:05 AM.
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Beetleboy
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For goodness sake, will y'all stop getting hostile with each other! There are more important things in the world to have heated discussions about than dinosaur integument!
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