|
My issues with the T rex skin study; WARNING: you have entered rant zone
|
|
Topic Started: Oct 30 2017, 07:44 AM (1,652 Views)
|
|
Mao
|
Oct 30 2017, 07:44 AM
Post #1
|
- Posts:
- 115
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #2,240
- Joined:
- Aug 25, 2017
- Gender:
- Private
- Area of expertise:
- Alternate Evolution
- Nationality:
- New Zealand
- Favorite Quote:
- "It's time to get spoopy!"
- Gender:
- I have many
|
WARNING: you have reached a RANT zone, where I give my opinion about a controversial topic
T'was June 2017. I was on my birthday vacation in Pittsburgh. While I was at the hotel, I decided to open up my chromebook... and saw something surprising. There was a new study about T rex's skin impressions, and everyone was talking about it. To this day, however, it still manages to be controversial.
Honestly, It really doesn't make sense for T Rex to grow scales. I mean, it probably did, but you have to realize that it should've been an oddity to others. It's like finding a lion fossil with Glyptodont armor. That would be a breakthrough, and I don't see why a lot of people seemed that a scaly rex was normal. It's in the realm of one of the weirdest animals to ever walk the earth, pretty much without people even realizing that.
And with that, I got skeptical. I searched through online, and apparently many other people seem to have the same opinion on the matter, that the scales, might not even be scales in the first place. My issue is that yes, it probably did evolve scales, but think about how likely that is. Evolution doesn't play Rule of Cool, well, sometimes, but why would an animal like that evolve full on scales instead of, I don't know, Hardened Skin, or just keep its feathers?
that's where it gets too confusing. it just weird to see that such an animal would evolve such an advanced thing. It's that everyone thinks these are the norm: but they aren't. This can go two ways.
1. T rex and company evolved highly derived scales meant for defense purposes
2. It's not even scales at all, but maybe just hard skin.
Welp, you read the second piece, and your probably going to write a reply telling me that i'm wrong, but there's some evidence for this claim. If you look at the scales on T rex, it seems they somewhat resemble the skin of Rhinos. and the supposed scales on T rex look somewhat diffirent to typical hadrosaur or sauropod scales.


and here's some rhino skin:

So it's unknown wether these scales are true or not. both sides seem to have their evidences, but scales do not always mean an absense of feathers. hell, they might've had a fluffy coat over the feathers.
|
|
As of my gender, I have every gender imaginable, some even inconceivable to your minds. I have every gender in the gender spectrum, as well as ones you cannot envision.
|
| |
|
Tartarus
|
Oct 30 2017, 06:02 PM
Post #2
|
- Posts:
- 1,774
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #705
- Joined:
- Feb 1, 2012
- Gender:
- Male
- Nationality:
- Australian
|
- Mao
- Oct 30 2017, 07:44 AM
Honestly, It really doesn't make sense for T Rex to grow scales. Why wouldn't a scaly T-rex make sense? We already know from fossil evidence that many dinosaurs had scales. You yourself seem to acknowledge scales on hadrosaurs and sauropods, and scales have also been found on things like ceratopsians and theropods (the group T-rex resides in). So scaly dinosaurs are hardly out of the ordinary.
As for the comparison photos, I don't really find the rhino skin all that similar in appearance to the T-rex skin to be honest.
Finally, while you are right that scales need not mean an absence of feathers this was not really what was being claimed. Of course a scaly T-rex could still have some feathers on it, its just that with scales on so many parts of the body this means that feathering can not have been too extensive (as feathers and scales cannot occupy the same spots).
|
|
|
| |
|
peashyjah
|
Oct 30 2017, 07:10 PM
Post #3
|
- Posts:
- 983
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #1,744
- Joined:
- Aug 14, 2015
- Gender:
- Male
- Area of expertise:
- Future Evolution
- Nationality:
- American
- Favorite Quote:
- "Let's get stupid loud!" from SMFA. "You can't brush your damn teeth without a damn hook!!! " from Squidbillies..............
- Gender:
- Male
|
For a long time, most dinosaurs are always seen with scaly skin but that was before something like this showed up. It doesn't make any sense at all for dinosaurs to have completely naked skin.
|
Discontinued projects: The New Ostracoderms (i might continue with this project again someday) The Americas (where in 58 million years from now in the future North and South America has both become isolated island continents)
All Expansions (my attempt at expanding the universe of All Tomorrows by Nemo Ramjet aka C.M. Kosemen, started June 6, 2018) Anthropozoic (my attempt at expanding the universe of Man After Man and also a re-imagining of it, coming 2019 or 2020) New Cenozoica (my attempt at expanding the universe of The New Dinosaurs and also a re-imagining of it, also coming 2019 or 2020) All Alternatives or All Changes (a re-telling of All Tomorrows but with some minor and major "changes", coming June 10, 2018)
|
| |
|
Mao
|
Oct 31 2017, 05:15 AM
Post #4
|
- Posts:
- 115
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #2,240
- Joined:
- Aug 25, 2017
- Gender:
- Private
- Area of expertise:
- Alternate Evolution
- Nationality:
- New Zealand
- Favorite Quote:
- "It's time to get spoopy!"
- Gender:
- I have many
|
- Tartarus
- Oct 30 2017, 06:02 PM
- Mao
- Oct 30 2017, 07:44 AM
Honestly, It really doesn't make sense for T Rex to grow scales.
Why wouldn't a scaly T-rex make sense? We already know from fossil evidence that many dinosaurs had scales. You yourself seem to acknowledge scales on hadrosaurs and sauropods, and scales have also been found on things like ceratopsians and theropods (the group T-rex resides in). So scaly dinosaurs are hardly out of the ordinary. As for the comparison photos, I don't really find the rhino skin all that similar in appearance to the T-rex skin to be honest. Finally, while you are right that scales need not mean an absence of feathers this was not really what was being claimed. Of course a scaly T-rex could still have some feathers on it, its just that with scales on so many parts of the body this means that feathering can not have been too extensive (as feathers and scales cannot occupy the same spots). Yes they can. Have you seen a barn owl's feet? or Psittacosaurus' bristles?
|
|
As of my gender, I have every gender imaginable, some even inconceivable to your minds. I have every gender in the gender spectrum, as well as ones you cannot envision.
|
| |
|
Mao
|
Oct 31 2017, 05:27 AM
Post #5
|
- Posts:
- 115
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #2,240
- Joined:
- Aug 25, 2017
- Gender:
- Private
- Area of expertise:
- Alternate Evolution
- Nationality:
- New Zealand
- Favorite Quote:
- "It's time to get spoopy!"
- Gender:
- I have many
|
- Tartarus
- Oct 30 2017, 06:02 PM
- Mao
- Oct 30 2017, 07:44 AM
Honestly, It really doesn't make sense for T Rex to grow scales.
Why wouldn't a scaly T-rex make sense? We already know from fossil evidence that many dinosaurs had scales. You yourself seem to acknowledge scales on hadrosaurs and sauropods, and scales have also been found on things like ceratopsians and theropods (the group T-rex resides in). So scaly dinosaurs are hardly out of the ordinary. As for the comparison photos, I don't really find the rhino skin all that similar in appearance to the T-rex skin to be honest. Finally, while you are right that scales need not mean an absence of feathers this was not really what was being claimed. Of course a scaly T-rex could still have some feathers on it, its just that with scales on so many parts of the body this means that feathering can not have been too extensive (as feathers and scales cannot occupy the same spots). It's because scales are an oddity (ish) in dinosaurs. it makes sense for an herbivore that needs scales to defend itself, but a carnivore? Hell, we should have scaly Phorusrachids if nature really did work by that logic.
Why would an animal like T rex lose its feathers, vital thermoregulatory organs, for some armor? it really does make T rex more strange. I should also point out that scaly dinosaurs could've had feathers. since feathers can grow in between scales, from what psittacosaurus shows us, it might be more, not accurate, but it is about as plausible as a scaly one for now.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Stegoceras_validum.jpg https://plastospleen.deviantart.com/art/Eastern-Dawn-Trachodon-602765726 https://plastospleen.deviantart.com/art/Agathaumas-sylvestris-606131253
|
|
As of my gender, I have every gender imaginable, some even inconceivable to your minds. I have every gender in the gender spectrum, as well as ones you cannot envision.
|
| |
|
GlarnBoudin
|
Oct 31 2017, 08:58 AM
Post #6
|
Disgusting Skin Fetishist
- Posts:
- 1,900
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #1,641
- Joined:
- Feb 15, 2015
- Gender:
- Male
- Area of expertise:
- Alternate Evolution
- Nationality:
- United States
- Favorite Quote:
- "My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!"
- Gender:
- What is a gender? A miserable pile of secrets!
|
- Mao
- Oct 31 2017, 05:27 AM
Why would an animal like T rex lose its feathers, vital thermoregulatory organs, for some armor? it really does make T rex more strange. I should also point out that scaly dinosaurs could've had feathers. since feathers can grow in between scales, from what psittacosaurus shows us, it might be more, not accurate, but it is about as plausible as a scaly one for now. Gee, I don't know. Maybe because it was an animal that weighed more than an elephant that lived in a hot, humid environment?
Feathers aren't a magic wand to fix all thermoregulatory issues - they can only do so much. At a certain point, animals just get too big for integument to still be useful. Also, abelisaurs and carnosaurs beg to disagree with the 'no carnivorous dinosaur had scales' argument.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't feathernazis rail and scream at the idea of scales and feathers together? I might be wrong, though - it's been a while since those arguments started.
|
Quotes
Spoiler: click to toggle OctoSharkTaSaurus: WELP. HELL-O-PHANTS IT IS. Kamineigh: I was six and I had started having fantasies about this old crone dying. Sometimes by my own hand. YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING HORRIBLY WRONG IF A SIX-YEAR OLD WANTS TO KILL YOU WITH THE SAME HANDS HE JUST USED TO MAKE A BLOCK TOWER. Parasky: No, he's right, they have a medical grade walrus at most hospitals for that sort of thing. Mr Mysterio, regarding yours truly: I'm learning things about you that I'm not sure I wanted to know. HangingThief: An otologist is only as good as his walrus Stealth_Rock: We have a discord for double penetration? Ichthyander: If your eyelids are massive enough to significantly affect the path of light in space, it is time to go sleep. Mr Mysterio: Glarn-Glarn, don't... don't fuck the cave baboons. Kamineigh: They lacked wings. Instead, they went around in modified pilot's gear and beat the shit out of people using maces. Parasky: No! We will not calm down! This is a serious argument over whether or not some long dead animal is in any way similar to a group of modern animals that they are descended from! THIS. IS. SEWIOUS. Lamna: Obvious typo, I'm never going to be popular in Belgium. Trex841: Interesting point. Valid counterpoint. Self-obsessed psychotic rant. Parasky: No ties. Begin genetically modifying crows until we have organisms that roughly resemble those in the competition, and then have them fight to the death to see who wins this competition. Alternatively, Cephalian and SabrWolf could fight to the death. But at the end of the day something will be fighting to the death for my amusement to determine the winner. Yellowdrakex: Is it alright to have an irrational fear of gliding snakes? They're snakes. FROM ABOVE. Kamineigh: See, you wouldn't be in this mess if you began a bloody revolution every time your leaders showed to unsatisfactory. Zihuatanejo: Somewhere in heaven, a very groggy, very confused angel has just woken up and is trying to figure out why a boisterous Australian man is poking it with a stick. Komodo: I'm sorry but in what alternative universe would thousands of zebras be sent back in time by some sort of illegal time travel group to change history and preparing them by making gigantic working animatronic allosaurs? Seriously, why? Parasky: Maybe y'all should move to America, where you can flex your freedom muscles. Sir Spookums: It's a game about children catching super powered monsters, stuffing them in tiny balls, and battling other strangers' monsters. What about that makes sense in regards to anything, mister Kam? Des Orages: Yi qi. Just when you think you've seen it all, nature screws us over once more. Kaminiegh: This is clearly an inaccurate statement. I'd never challenge the authority of an admin... Unless Paraksytron stubbed his toe and fell over. THEN I, STARSCREIGHM, WILL BECOME THE NEW LEADER OF OF THE DE-SPECU-CONS! Dragon: Is normal a good word to use for describing any of us? Velociraptor: I once dreamed I was trying to steal a flamingo. The flamingo was oddly calm about the whole situation. Kaminiegh: THAT'S IT, I'M KINKSHAMING. Flashman63: In its 4,600 year history, men from all eras, places and classes have been entering into the Library: from the ancient bearded sages of Sumeria and Chaldea, to the sober-minded Academics and Zoologists of the Victorian era, to the great warlord Cletus, an inbred hillbilly who just happened to be carrying his AR-15 around his County's Strip-Mall library. OctoSharktasaurus: Well, uh, it's a pseudo-tripedal, terrestrial subcontinental Madagascan Beaked Whale... Is that not obvious? It literally says it blatantly. Holben: Did you not add lamb's blood to your fruit juice and the crushed bones of an englishman to your salsa? It's not authentic if you don't. Kaminiegh: Shut up, Hybrid, stop ruining my chances of time-travelling and getting some Neanderthal tail! Mr Mysterio: Except maybe Canada. If ever there was a country that was hiding secret reserves of powerful alien technology, it's probably mine. HangingThief: If you answered mainly "yes," you are most likely a salamander. Unfortunately it is becoming harder and harder to tell these days. Monster: In vaguely related news, I've developed a fear of my sewing machine. WHAT ARE YOU STRANGE NEEDLEBEAST Mynxi: He sowed the seed, I merely pissed on it and saw what grew. Beetleboy: The moral of the story: never trust a catfish. Parasky: Speaking of original, note to self: write erotic classical Chinese literature fan fiction Bromance of the Three Kingdoms under pseudonym Tuck Chingle. Little: Starting playing DND, took all of an hour of gameplay until a yuri love-triangle was initiated. And no, it was not my fault. Corecin: If this is your first time with a lesbian love triangle in a DnD game than you don't even have to specify that you're starting out. Octo: Oh no now Little will enlighten with the deep and complex subject that is hentai lore. Beetleboy: It shows what kind of person I am that I'm seeking crush advice on a forum about creating fictional organisms. Corecin: I am not in the mood for looking up yuri because then the FBI agent monitoring my computer will judge me with reckless abandon. Blue_Komrade: Excuse me sir I am going to have to see if you have your membership card to the Misanthrope Club. Parasky: Ultimately, by the miracle of microbiology and biochemistry, I have accidentally added an additional month to my brew and created a Bavarian style hefeweizen rather than the American style wheat beer I planned, despite technically not having the correct ingredients. However because I wrote down what I did wrong its not a mistake it's actually science. Rebirth: I can't be the only one curious about what would happen if you spayed and neutered a male antechinus before it reached sexual maturity. Ebervalius: Laws? What kind of spooky cuckery is that? Parasky: Ah see, but that's just the thing, you thought that I thought that you thought that I had said you hadn't read it, when really I had said that you had said that you thought that I thought that you hadn't read it. So really it's Flisch's fault.
Co-creator/corporate minion for the Pop Culture Monster Apocalypse!
My Projects
Spoiler: click to toggle Coming Soon
Spoiler: click to toggle Evolutionary Continuum: Jurassic Safari: An adventure 65 million years in the making continues. The Future is Altered: When man plays God, he plays to win.
Alternative Evolution: The Extended Jurassic: The time of the titans extends through the Cretaceous Xensaron: Second chance for the strange
The Habitable Zone: Bellator: A World at War Pentrex: The five worlds of the five champions of the dinosaur world, together at last.
Alternate Universes: Terra Venatus: Where fantasy comes to life Terra Incognita: Planet Earth, now with 150% more pulp! Sol and its Surrounding Worlds: A Guide to the Organisms and Peoples of the Solar System (Companion to Terra Incognita) Guide to the Ark: ???
Cafe Cosmique: Time Rip: When Dinosaurs Attack!
My dA page. My Fanfiction.net page.
|
| |
|
Mao
|
Oct 31 2017, 09:30 AM
Post #7
|
- Posts:
- 115
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #2,240
- Joined:
- Aug 25, 2017
- Gender:
- Private
- Area of expertise:
- Alternate Evolution
- Nationality:
- New Zealand
- Favorite Quote:
- "It's time to get spoopy!"
- Gender:
- I have many
|
- GlarnSkeleDin
- Oct 31 2017, 08:58 AM
- Mao
- Oct 31 2017, 05:27 AM
Why would an animal like T rex lose its feathers, vital thermoregulatory organs, for some armor? it really does make T rex more strange. I should also point out that scaly dinosaurs could've had feathers. since feathers can grow in between scales, from what psittacosaurus shows us, it might be more, not accurate, but it is about as plausible as a scaly one for now.
Gee, I don't know. Maybe because it was an animal that weighed more than an elephant that lived in a hot, humid environment? Feathers aren't a magic wand to fix all thermoregulatory issues - they can only do so much. At a certain point, animals just get too big for integument to still be useful. Also, abelisaurs and carnosaurs beg to disagree with the 'no carnivorous dinosaur had scales' argument. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't feathernazis rail and scream at the idea of scales and feathers together? I might be wrong, though - it's been a while since those arguments started. that doesen't answer my question. it's why it evolved scales instead of skin, and bald skin would've been easier to evolve.
and also, mammals are a very bad comparision. Yutyrannus lived in a similar environment, but yet had feathers, but it was smaller than t rex. and "hot and humid" is not a good comparision while talking about a climate of 11-12 degrees celcius
|
|
As of my gender, I have every gender imaginable, some even inconceivable to your minds. I have every gender in the gender spectrum, as well as ones you cannot envision.
|
| |
|
Dragonthunders
|
Oct 31 2017, 10:51 AM
Post #8
|
The ethereal archosaur in blue
- Posts:
- 3,039
- Group:
- Global Mods
- Member
- #690
- Joined:
- Jan 22, 2012
- Gender:
- Male
- Nationality:
- Salvadoran
- Favorite Quote:
- "There is only one war that can afford the human being: the war against their extinction" Isaac Asimov
- Also known as:
- DT, thunders
- Gender:
- still male
|
- Quote:
-
Yes they can. Have you seen a barn owl's feet? or Psittacosaurus' bristles?
You're comparing a Tyrannosaur which is a large theropod of the size of an elephant with a Barn owl which are pretty much small. Psittacosaurus just have that, and nothing more, the rest of its skin is covered by scales at most.
- Quote:
-
It's because scales are an oddity (ish) in dinosaurs.
I want a source for that claim.
- Quote:
-
it makes sense for an herbivore that needs scales to defend itself, but a carnivore? Hell, we should have scaly Phorusrachids if nature really did work by that logic.
Tell that to crocodiles too. We are also talking about a type of bird that did not grow beyond the limits that birds have reached, which in comparison to their extinct non-avian theropod cousins is quite small, is really a bad equivalency, in the case of large theropod there plays many probable issues that would make them lost their feathers. IDK either what do you mean with defense, like defense in the sense of protect the skin of any minor damage or something like protect from big or dangerous threats like an predator, because for the first is a more common use.
- Quote:
-
Why would an animal like T rex lose its feathers, vital thermoregulatory organs, for some armor?
I must say that feathers aren't totally vital if the animal if is endoterm as the metabolism can deal with regulate an mantain their own temperature, for other thing, I think that the same thing has already been said and the same argument has been repeated over and over again, which is the most plausible, climate and size played an important role in the loss of the "feathers" since being able to regulate its temperature, being huge animal of 7 tons and live in a predominantly warm environment there are enough pressures to simplify the integument of filaments to flat scales.
- Quote:
-
That doesen't answer my question. it's why it evolved scales instead of skin, and bald skin would've been easier to evolve.
I really do not see how it is easier, even though, I don't see any disadvantage in the change of the complex tegument like feathers convert into flat scales, has happened in many clades for reasons of environment, temperature or niche, is the expression or the response of the flexible tegument of the archosaurs to such pressures.
|
Projects
"Active" projects
The Future is Far Welcome to the next chapters of the evolution of life on earth, travel the across the earth on a journey that goes beyond the limits, a billion years of future history in the making.
The SE giants project Wonder what is the big of the big on speculative evolution? no problem, here is the answer
Coming one day Age of Mankind Humanity fate and its possible finals.
The Long Cosmic Journey The history outside our world.
The alternative paths The multiverse, the final frontier...
Holocene park: Welcome to the biggest adventure of the last 215 million years, where the age of mammals comes to life again! Cambrian mars: An interesting experiment on an unprecedented scale, the life of a particular and important period in the history of our planet, the cambric life, has been transported to a terraformed and habitable mars in an alternative past. Two different paths, two different worlds, but same life and same weirdness.
My deviantart
|
| |
|
Mao
|
Oct 31 2017, 11:01 AM
Post #9
|
- Posts:
- 115
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #2,240
- Joined:
- Aug 25, 2017
- Gender:
- Private
- Area of expertise:
- Alternate Evolution
- Nationality:
- New Zealand
- Favorite Quote:
- "It's time to get spoopy!"
- Gender:
- I have many
|
- Dragonthunders
- Oct 31 2017, 10:51 AM
I want a source for that claim.
because tell me how many feathered animals today you know with extensive feather coverage beyond the feet and legs.
Also, why not tell sheather or any person who makes gigantic birds to completely cover them in scales because that's plausible.
Edited by Mao, Oct 31 2017, 11:03 AM.
|
|
As of my gender, I have every gender imaginable, some even inconceivable to your minds. I have every gender in the gender spectrum, as well as ones you cannot envision.
|
| |
|
Dragonthunders
|
Oct 31 2017, 11:22 AM
Post #10
|
The ethereal archosaur in blue
- Posts:
- 3,039
- Group:
- Global Mods
- Member
- #690
- Joined:
- Jan 22, 2012
- Gender:
- Male
- Nationality:
- Salvadoran
- Favorite Quote:
- "There is only one war that can afford the human being: the war against their extinction" Isaac Asimov
- Also known as:
- DT, thunders
- Gender:
- still male
|
- Quote:
-
because tell me how many feathered animals today you know with extensive feather coverage beyond the feet and legs.
I guess is because they are a very specialized branch, as well they are fine as they are, they have not had any pressure that oblige them to lose their plumage, that applies with why they dont redevelop teeth and tail as well.
Also what you're implying with it, that birds are the only dinosaurs? They are the only surviving clade alive today of course, but they are just a frame of the great diversity they had.
- Quote:
-
Also, why not tell sheather or any person who makes gigantic birds to completely cover them in scales because that's plausible.
Sheather already did some scaled forms but not for giant forms, but I did some too
Spoiler: click to toggle
|
Projects
"Active" projects
The Future is Far Welcome to the next chapters of the evolution of life on earth, travel the across the earth on a journey that goes beyond the limits, a billion years of future history in the making.
The SE giants project Wonder what is the big of the big on speculative evolution? no problem, here is the answer
Coming one day Age of Mankind Humanity fate and its possible finals.
The Long Cosmic Journey The history outside our world.
The alternative paths The multiverse, the final frontier...
Holocene park: Welcome to the biggest adventure of the last 215 million years, where the age of mammals comes to life again! Cambrian mars: An interesting experiment on an unprecedented scale, the life of a particular and important period in the history of our planet, the cambric life, has been transported to a terraformed and habitable mars in an alternative past. Two different paths, two different worlds, but same life and same weirdness.
My deviantart
|
| |
|
Mao
|
Oct 31 2017, 11:27 AM
Post #11
|
- Posts:
- 115
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #2,240
- Joined:
- Aug 25, 2017
- Gender:
- Private
- Area of expertise:
- Alternate Evolution
- Nationality:
- New Zealand
- Favorite Quote:
- "It's time to get spoopy!"
- Gender:
- I have many
|
well. at the end of the day. i'll still keep my beliefs, and you can keep yours. there's no point in this argument.
Edited by Mao, Oct 31 2017, 11:27 AM.
|
|
As of my gender, I have every gender imaginable, some even inconceivable to your minds. I have every gender in the gender spectrum, as well as ones you cannot envision.
|
| |
|
Nyarlathotep
|
Oct 31 2017, 11:34 AM
Post #12
|
- Posts:
- 1,300
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #1,358
- Joined:
- Mar 2, 2014
- Gender:
- Male
- Area of expertise:
- Future Evolution
- Nationality:
- English
- Gender:
- Redundant much redundant?
|
I was going to say crocodiles, Abelisaurids, "carnosaurs", monitor lizards etc all contradict that idea but I've been ninja'd.
There's also the issue of cladistics, with phorosrachids being close to living birds with similar feathers-you can't say the same for non-avian theropods.
And I'm pretty sure it's universally agreed that Yutyrannus lived in a cooler, drier environment than T.rex did, even ignoring the size and cladistical discrepancy. Scales are armour in and of themselves-better than bare skin. These were mosaic scales as well, not like those of modern squamates. It's even more so for dinosaurs with osteoderms, such as Abelisaurs and many titanosaurs (even giant ones like Argentinosaurus and Alamosaurus), on top of the scales.
Because complex feathers are definitely basal to modern birds, and many extinct ones too. Feathers in non-avian dinosaurs are a more mixed bag, as generally speaking, the more divergent from birds, the more 'primitive' the feathers are, up to basal coelurosaurs like Scuriamimus, Yutyrannus and Ornitholestes (also I currently think that Megaraptorans had basal integument if they are basal coelurosaurs). It's not impossible for integument in more basal theropods, but it's impossible to say for certain right now as there's no evidence for it compared to scales. And the whole size issue is still a problem if you want to feather up the big theropods as opposed to little ones (polar ones though are certainly a probability I imagine).
I don't think you get the argument here. Tyrannosaur feathers are much more basic in design and probably functions than those of modern birds, so they're not exactly the best comparison to use. We've already stated that the argument is not that feathers completely run out at one point but are gradually phased out with increased size due to thermoregulation issues-thus most of us reckon that Rex would only have limited feathers either in sparse concentration it in mane patches, since they're not as efficient as modern bird feathers. Also, Sheather and others projects typically were made before these papers came out and were not as concerned about palaeontology as about storytelling.
Also, may I ask Glarn to stop referring to excessive feather supporters (by that I mean people who go for full feathers as default even with contrary evidence) as 'feathernazis"? It's very disrespectful both to the individual and invoking Godwin's Law, which typically is a sign of an argument which...isn't very strong.
|
|
|
| |
|
Mao
|
Oct 31 2017, 12:33 PM
Post #13
|
- Posts:
- 115
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #2,240
- Joined:
- Aug 25, 2017
- Gender:
- Private
- Area of expertise:
- Alternate Evolution
- Nationality:
- New Zealand
- Favorite Quote:
- "It's time to get spoopy!"
- Gender:
- I have many
|
- Nyarlathotep
- Oct 31 2017, 11:34 AM
I was going to say crocodiles, Abelisaurids, "carnosaurs", monitor lizards etc all contradict that idea but I've been ninja'd.
There's also the issue of cladistics, with phorosrachids being close to living birds with similar feathers-you can't say the same for non-avian theropods.
And I'm pretty sure it's universally agreed that Yutyrannus lived in a cooler, drier environment than T.rex did, even ignoring the size and cladistical discrepancy. Scales are armour in and of themselves-better than bare skin. These were mosaic scales as well, not like those of modern squamates. It's even more so for dinosaurs with osteoderms, such as Abelisaurs and many titanosaurs (even giant ones like Argentinosaurus and Alamosaurus), on top of the scales.
Because complex feathers are definitely basal to modern birds, and many extinct ones too. Feathers in non-avian dinosaurs are a more mixed bag, as generally speaking, the more divergent from birds, the more 'primitive' the feathers are, up to basal coelurosaurs like Scuriamimus, Yutyrannus and Ornitholestes (also I currently think that Megaraptorans had basal integument if they are basal coelurosaurs). It's not impossible for integument in more basal theropods, but it's impossible to say for certain right now as there's no evidence for it compared to scales. And the whole size issue is still a problem if you want to feather up the big theropods as opposed to little ones (polar ones though are certainly a probability I imagine).
I don't think you get the argument here. Tyrannosaur feathers are much more basic in design and probably functions than those of modern birds, so they're not exactly the best comparison to use. We've already stated that the argument is not that feathers completely run out at one point but are gradually phased out with increased size due to thermoregulation issues-thus most of us reckon that Rex would only have limited feathers either in sparse concentration it in mane patches, since they're not as efficient as modern bird feathers. Also, Sheather and others projects typically were made before these papers came out and were not as concerned about palaeontology as about storytelling.
Also, may I ask Glarn to stop referring to excessive feather supporters (by that I mean people who go for full feathers as default even with contrary evidence) as 'feathernazis"? It's very disrespectful both to the individual and invoking Godwin's Law, which typically is a sign of an argument which...isn't very strong. I find that people are somewhat leaning towards a dinosaur that does prove that non coelosaurians had feathers...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulindadromeus
yeah, this thing, with advanced feathers (which it probably evolved independantly) and has scaly areas. this proves that pretty much most dinosaurs could've had feathers or fillaments. and even pterosaurs, like an undescribed tapejarid, seem to show branching filaments, along with sordes and aurognathus, which have normal looking pycnofibres.
this means it's probable that all ornithodirans were fluffy.
Link to tapejarid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFKlXviCEBo
|
|
As of my gender, I have every gender imaginable, some even inconceivable to your minds. I have every gender in the gender spectrum, as well as ones you cannot envision.
|
| |
|
Mao
|
Oct 31 2017, 01:02 PM
Post #14
|
- Posts:
- 115
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #2,240
- Joined:
- Aug 25, 2017
- Gender:
- Private
- Area of expertise:
- Alternate Evolution
- Nationality:
- New Zealand
- Favorite Quote:
- "It's time to get spoopy!"
- Gender:
- I have many
|
- Nyarlathotep
- Oct 31 2017, 11:34 AM
I was going to say crocodiles, Abelisaurids, "carnosaurs", monitor lizards etc all contradict that idea but I've been ninja'd.
There's also the issue of cladistics, with phorosrachids being close to living birds with similar feathers-you can't say the same for non-avian theropods.
And I'm pretty sure it's universally agreed that Yutyrannus lived in a cooler, drier environment than T.rex did, even ignoring the size and cladistical discrepancy. Scales are armour in and of themselves-better than bare skin. These were mosaic scales as well, not like those of modern squamates. It's even more so for dinosaurs with osteoderms, such as Abelisaurs and many titanosaurs (even giant ones like Argentinosaurus and Alamosaurus), on top of the scales.
Because complex feathers are definitely basal to modern birds, and many extinct ones too. Feathers in non-avian dinosaurs are a more mixed bag, as generally speaking, the more divergent from birds, the more 'primitive' the feathers are, up to basal coelurosaurs like Scuriamimus, Yutyrannus and Ornitholestes (also I currently think that Megaraptorans had basal integument if they are basal coelurosaurs). It's not impossible for integument in more basal theropods, but it's impossible to say for certain right now as there's no evidence for it compared to scales. And the whole size issue is still a problem if you want to feather up the big theropods as opposed to little ones (polar ones though are certainly a probability I imagine).
I don't think you get the argument here. Tyrannosaur feathers are much more basic in design and probably functions than those of modern birds, so they're not exactly the best comparison to use. We've already stated that the argument is not that feathers completely run out at one point but are gradually phased out with increased size due to thermoregulation issues-thus most of us reckon that Rex would only have limited feathers either in sparse concentration it in mane patches, since they're not as efficient as modern bird feathers. Also, Sheather and others projects typically were made before these papers came out and were not as concerned about palaeontology as about storytelling.
Also, may I ask Glarn to stop referring to excessive feather supporters (by that I mean people who go for full feathers as default even with contrary evidence) as 'feathernazis"? It's very disrespectful both to the individual and invoking Godwin's Law, which typically is a sign of an argument which...isn't very strong. also, i'm a "feathernazi" because I at default add feathers if there isn't any evidence? Of course, i'm not going to turn Carnotaurus into some giant fuzzball. i'll still use scales, and I still believe that t rex could've had scales, contrary to this post.
" is that yes, it probably did evolve scales" I also said that in the post. referring to the fact that T rex in my opinion did or did not have scales. research subsequent to this post showed me that these are true scales. I do believe that most dinosaurs had feathers, but i also adhere to the scientific evidence. I believe maybe abelisaurids had very few feathers, as in, probably being very thin, like what people have speculated with T rex. Problem is, is that T rex lived in a place as cold as Minneapolis, so of course, it's gonna keep some feathers maybe.
|
|
As of my gender, I have every gender imaginable, some even inconceivable to your minds. I have every gender in the gender spectrum, as well as ones you cannot envision.
|
| |
|
LittleLazyLass
|
Oct 31 2017, 02:04 PM
Post #15
|
Proud quilt in a bag
- Posts:
- 8,633
- Group:
- Global Mods
- Member
- #1,463
- Joined:
- Jun 18, 2014
- Area of expertise:
- Alternate Universes
- Nationality:
- Sorry, but why do you want to know aboot my nationality, eh? Uh... sorry, that was rude of me. Sorry.
- Favorite Quote:
- "you know you're a nerd when you search Wookieepedia for porn"
- Also known as:
- You can call me Little; full list of old names found through profile.
- Gender:
- Trans Questioning (see link in sig; feminine pronouns)
|
Well, Kulinadadromeus doesn't really "prove" fluff was ancestral to Dinosauria, and the tapejarid would likely be independently derived complexity either way, but I do agree with Mao on fuzz likely being ancestral for Ornithodira. That said, like I said, the important thing in these integumentary discussions it to remember to never be to certain of things - particularly when early dinosaur phylogeny is a big mess at the moment.
- DT
-
You're comparing a Tyrannosaur which is a large theropod of the size of an elephant with a Barn owl which are pretty much small.
I fail to see what exactly this has to do with the physiological capability of feathers to grow alongside scales?
- Quote:
-
And I'm pretty sure it's universally agreed that Yutyrannus lived in a cooler, drier environment than T.rex did, even ignoring the size and cladistical discrepancy.
Cooler yes, but the Jehol ecosystem was based largely around lakes, was it not?
|
totally not British, b-baka!
You like me (Unlike) I don't even really like this song that much but the title is pretty relatable sometimes, I guess.
Me  Forum user Uncanny Gemstar drew what is supposed to be a me. Thanks! Spoiler: click to toggle As they walk in, they're greeted by a small, poorly kept pathway leading to a poorly constructed Japanese-style gate. Behind this, a small field made up of corn, rice, wheat, potatoes, among other plants is contrasted by large piles of books, as well as a few rather out of place looking laptops. Off in the corner, a small woman, with long, striped, and strikingly colorful socks, no shoes, unremarkable denim shorts, a large, fancy black coat, arm warmers, glasses, a tuque, and somewhat unkempt, mid-length blue-and-pink-streaked red hair, is rummaging through a trash bin, located behind a sign saying "employees only". She continues this for a while (walking behind a wall to change her outfit now and then), until one of her visitors coughs. Startled, she looks up, apologizes, and grabs a handful of textbooks and novels before daintily running off to join them. What, you want me to tell you what these mean? Predenterra The (Lost) Lost World The Standing World Read First Clarifications on my sex and genderSorry if I come off as rude, I don't put much thought into word choice sometimes. I'm also super prone to editing my posts, sometimes multiple times, in the minutes following posting. For the love of god, take my posts from my earlier days on the forum with a grain of salt. I was not particularly knowledgeable or mature back then. Some of them are so cringe-worthy I can't even bring myself to look at them. Words Maybe Great Words - Words To Spec By
-
It would have to be something extremely alien, pushing the limits of our imagination. But those are always my favorite kinds of life. ~~The Words of The Xenologist
- Words To Live By
-
Ignorance is never insulting if you're willing to learn, we're all ignorant about most things. ~~The Words of Lamna
- Words I Live By
-
Yeah, and even if you don't agree with creationists on that concept, that doesn't mean they can't be decent people. I have friends who are creationist (possibly even young earth) that I get along with fine in general life. I don't think they're right of course, but that doesn't make them intellectual degenerates. ~~The Words of forbidden3
Member Quotes - jman123
-
Ass-breathing fish-lizards? Sounds like a punk rock band
- Sheather
-
"Holy fucking shit a toilet paper roll! Our favorite thing!"
- Urufumarukai
-
Tyrannosaurus aquastronka
- Kamineigh
-
Myo, if you don't stop reading the YouTube comments...
- Lamna
-
Are you saying what I think you're saying?
Sheather bathes in cum?
- Cephylus
-
And last night I dreamed I was blowing up a Kindergarten with a grenade launcher for no particular reason...
- revin
-
Oh, and of course more people get killed by selfies than by sharks. Of course.
- Parasky
-
SHEEEEAAAAATTTTTTHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
- whachamacalit2
-
The smell of rotting flesh really kills my appetite, surprising, but the visual appearance of corpses makes me hungry. Is that weird?
- Ebervalius
-
I mean, let us say I'm a genderfluid blurflux demi-romantic woman who is sexually attracted to men, but only if they are Melanesian and have a voice like that of Nicholas Cage. Okay, so what?
- trex841
-
When I first saw that picture, I thought you were dissecting a condom.
- Mr Mysterio
-
All hail Robo-Stalin.
- Peashyjah
-
Seems like everything in this project is now dead.
- Stealth Rock
-
Seagulls are pretty much trees, right?
- Watcher
-
We all must finish chapters of our lives to go on to the next. Sometime this means leaving behind versions of ourselves that don't want to die.
- Yiqi15
-
For April fool's, we had to make an orgasm that resembled a human foot.
- Flisch
-
im the black market
- CaledonianWarrior96
-
He was a skater birb, she said tweet you later birb
- Most People at Some Point
-
Quotes - Some dude called plucas1 from Youtube comments
-
Funny, isn't it, that our world needs Clark Kent a lot more than Superman.
- Xenoblade Chronicles
-
Even though he is our creator, that does not afford him the right to take our lives on a whim. But that is the thinking of a homs. He is a god. Such morals cannot apply to gods. So you think we should just shut up and die?! If that is the fate decided by a god. You are mistaken if you think we will simply accept such a fate and wait to die. We'll never stop fighting. Not till the end. To Zanza, the outcome is the same. Thus your logic is flawed.
- Hades - Kid Icarus Uprising
-
When freaky aliens give you lemons, make freaky alien lemonade.
- Kid Icarus Uprising
-
But Souls are delicious. They're like bacon - they taste good on anything. But if you eat them, you completely remove them from existence! They can't move on or... or be reincarnated! Huh. I never really gave it much thought. Besides, what do you mean by reincarnation anyway? You know, being reborn as someone or something else. Which means different body, different memories, different experiences, yes? So isn't being reborn as "something else" the same as being "removed from existence"? I... I... eating souls isn't right! That depends on your definition of "right". All living things survive by eating other living things. So what? You're a god. You should be above all that! Gods are above living things, which doesn't necessarily mean we care about them.
- Some Dude on BBC Two
-
You are being shagged... by a flightless parrot.
Stuff
|
| |
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
|