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Vertical Eyes?; Above and below instead of right and left?
Topic Started: Oct 16 2017, 02:33 PM (506 Views)
Empyreon
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Are you plausible?

So random ideas pop in my head (as it does with many), and I found myself wondering if there were any plausible way for eyes to orient in an "above/below" fashion, as opposed to "left-right," like most bilaterally symmetrical organisms have. I can think of primitive organisms displaying this (they can get away with a lot more) but would there be any benefit to a different orientation? Could pressures from a specific biome or setting lead to this strange feature, or is my muse pursuing pipe dreams?
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Yiqi15
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Look up at the ceiling without moving your neck. Then you'll know that eyes can orient up and down.
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ÐK
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Pretty sure Empyreon meant having one eye directly above the other, not just being able to rotate eyeballs upwards.
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peashyjah
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Yiqi15
Oct 16 2017, 02:47 PM
Look up at the ceiling without moving your neck. Then you'll know that eyes can orient up and down.
That could be better evidence to know whether your eyes can rotate up and down without you moving your head.
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trex841
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spoo-ÐK-ee
Oct 16 2017, 03:42 PM
Pretty sure Empyreon meant having one eye directly above the other, not just being able to rotate eyeballs upwards.
Posted Image

Something like this.

As for actual set up, while you can probably work out a functional form of binocular vision this way, but peripheral vision would be more heavily effected. Unless there's an evolutionary precedent for a vertical periphery than horizontal.
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Rodlox
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Oct 16 2017, 02:33 PM
So random ideas pop in my head (as it does with many), and I found myself wondering if there were any plausible way for eyes to orient in an "above/below" fashion, as opposed to "left-right," like most bilaterally symmetrical organisms have. I can think of primitive organisms displaying this (they can get away with a lot more) but would there be any benefit to a different orientation? Could pressures from a specific biome or setting lead to this strange feature, or is my muse pursuing pipe dreams?
outside of an organism turning on its side flounder-style without an eye migration, yes, i'd say its possible...probably not a critter that lives near the sea floor (unless it has no other senses to detect prey with), but definately not something that lives on the sea floor. probably not something that lives at the sea surface - unless there are airborne dangers in the pre-Ordovician (or analogue thereof)

the biggest hurdle would be the conquest of land...assuming it drags itself out. but if its legs can support it even at that stage, no problem; also no problem if it conquers the land after hauling itself out in mangroves or something like that (rather than beaches)

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Rodlox
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trex841
Oct 16 2017, 05:38 PM
spoo-ÐK-ee
Oct 16 2017, 03:42 PM
Pretty sure Empyreon meant having one eye directly above the other, not just being able to rotate eyeballs upwards.
Posted Image

Something like this.

As for actual set up, while you can probably work out a functional form of binocular vision this way, but peripheral vision would be more heavily effected. Unless there's an evolutionary precedent for a vertical periphery than horizontal.
if it schools or has size on its side, does it need peripheral vision? (if its a true fish, it'd also have a lateral line, more important than sight)
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Sigmund Nastrazzurro
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Nice idea. I like it!

I would say that the answer relies firstly on the visual field of each individual eye in the vertical as well as horizontal directions and secondly on where interesting events tend to happen happen in a 3D coordinate system (360 horizontally by 180 degrees vertically).
Suppose one eye, raised on a stalk if need be, covers the entire surroudings except for the region of the stalk, then two eyes at opposite positions would suffice to ensure a full 360x180 degrees coverage. These could theoretically be placed anywhere as long as they are opposite. But if the visual field of each eye is limited in any direction (horizontal or vertical), you need more eyes to obtain 360x180 degrees coverage.
However, in real life, I expect that some regions are more interesting than others. For animals that are never attacked from below or from above, it would suffice to have vision that extends all around horizontally; blind spots above or below would be admissible. But animals living in a true 3D environment, in water or in the air, might do well to have a complete visual coverage without blind spots anywhere.

Hence the four eyes and their variable placement on the head of Furahan hexameres ;-)
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Empyreon
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Are you plausible?

trex841
 
As for actual set up, while you can probably work out a functional form of binocular vision this way, but peripheral vision would be more heavily effected. Unless there's an evolutionary precedent for a vertical periphery than horizontal.

Yes, what kind of environment might support/encourage a vertical periphery? I keep imagining steep canyon walls, but I really don't think that's enough to prefer any eye array over any other...

rodlox
 
if it schools or has size on its side, does it need peripheral vision? (if its a true fish, it'd also have a lateral line, more important than sight)

Another interesting notion. Schooling species may rely on other senses for horizontal orientation, but what about fear of predation? Are predators likely to come from above or below, or any direction at all (as is common in an aquatic setting), and is that enough to let this "vertical eye array" gain a darwinian foothold?

rodlox
 
the biggest hurdle would be the conquest of land...assuming it drags itself out. but if its legs can support it even at that stage, no problem; also no problem if it conquers the land after hauling itself out in mangroves or something like that (rather than beaches)

And if the "vertical eye array" has gained enough of a foothold in the organism, perhaps it will develop other solutions to solve any disadvantages the orientation imposes?

Sigmund Nastrazzurro
 
I would say that the answer relies firstly on the visual field of each individual eye in the vertical as well as horizontal directions and secondly on where interesting events tend to happen happen in a 3D coordinate system (360 horizontally by 180 degrees vertically).

That's an interesting place to work from: imagine a sphere of interest/danger around the organism, and determine ideal placement on the body for maximum coverage of most interesting surrounding areas, with a minimal tax on sensory or neurological development. Could a "vertical eye array" come about due to those evolutionary pressures as much as the horizontal one we're familiar with?
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LittleLazyLass
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The obvious next question is here is the interesting ways you might have to redesign the skull in light of the vertical eyed anatomy, although I suppose that's not exactly the topic at hand.

Anyway, yeah, I could see this working well in a vertically oriented environment. It's have a vertical version of our peripheral.
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trex841
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Rodlox
Oct 16 2017, 11:29 PM
trex841
Oct 16 2017, 05:38 PM
spoo-ÐK-ee
Oct 16 2017, 03:42 PM
Pretty sure Empyreon meant having one eye directly above the other, not just being able to rotate eyeballs upwards.
Posted Image

Something like this.

As for actual set up, while you can probably work out a functional form of binocular vision this way, but peripheral vision would be more heavily effected. Unless there's an evolutionary precedent for a vertical periphery than horizontal.
if it schools or has size on its side, does it need peripheral vision? (if its a true fish, it'd also have a lateral line, more important than sight)
I was thinking about terrestrial prey-predator dynamics, but yeah, if that is the only system that develops, that would be a bit of a moot point. And attacking from below or above is a rather popular tactic in the water (at least now a days, don't know how those figures work out back when eyes were developing), though I don't know if it's any more than from the sides. It feels like in a 360 environment, 360 vision would be the best when possible.
F.I.N.D.R Field Incident Logs
A comprehensive list of all organisms, artifacts, and alternative worlds encountered by the foundation team.

At the present time, concepts within are inconsistent and ever shifting.

(And this is just the spec related stuff)
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Rodlox
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Oct 17 2017, 06:08 PM
trex841
 
As for actual set up, while you can probably work out a functional form of binocular vision this way, but peripheral vision would be more heavily effected. Unless there's an evolutionary precedent for a vertical periphery than horizontal.

Yes, what kind of environment might support/encourage a vertical periphery? I keep imagining steep canyon walls, but I really don't think that's enough to prefer any eye array over any other...

rodlox
 
if it schools or has size on its side, does it need peripheral vision? (if its a true fish, it'd also have a lateral line, more important than sight)

Another interesting notion. Schooling species may rely on other senses for horizontal orientation, but what about fear of predation? Are predators likely to come from above or below, or any direction at all (as is common in an aquatic setting), and is that enough to let this "vertical eye array" gain a darwinian foothold?

rodlox
 
the biggest hurdle would be the conquest of land...assuming it drags itself out. but if its legs can support it even at that stage, no problem; also no problem if it conquers the land after hauling itself out in mangroves or something like that (rather than beaches)

And if the "vertical eye array" has gained enough of a foothold in the organism, perhaps it will develop other solutions to solve any disadvantages the orientation imposes?
well, as to predators...we know our earliest chordate ancestors (between Pikia's branch and the jawless fishes' branch) lived in the shallows...where there wasn't much - if anything - overhead, and few things that would attack from below...so sidewards vision would've had an advantage over any theoretical or hypothetical vertical-eyed chordate ancestors that may've existed.

...so, fewer shallows during that critical period (though that'll hinder a fossil record of the rise of the eyes, granted)
?hmm...maybe something like that squid that lives its life on its side, one eye facing the surface & one eye facing the seafloor & each eye is a different size.

and yes, other solutions are entirely possible. (a massive brow, for example)
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