Possibility of fully armless bipedal Mammals?

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Possibility of fully armless bipedal Mammals?
Topic Started: Aug 3 2017, 09:59 AM (1,698 Views)
Dazzle	Aug 3 2017, 09:59 AM Post #1
Fetus Posts: 24 Group: Members Member #2,218 Joined: Aug 3, 2017 Gender: Male Nationality: American Favorite Quote: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself...and giant man eating spiders" Also known as: Dazenza, (regretfully)Springtrapattacks, Nick, Neco	In Dougal Dixon's After Man book, one concept I'm surprised never got as popular(er, became a trope like Flightless Bats, Whale Birds, ect) is the Wakka http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/speculativeevolution/images/9/9c/Wakka.png/revision/latest?cb=20130327230925 The book implies that South America once again became an isolated continent 25 million years from now. Given how strange island fauna can get, could something like the Wakka ever evolve? A fully bipedal therapod-like mammal with no arms. It just seems too strange, well, most things in After Man are too strange to be true. At least in the way they are presented.



Yiqi15	Aug 3 2017, 10:05 AM Post #2
Prime Specimen Posts: 1,443 Group: Members Member #1,998 Joined: Oct 10, 2016 Gender: Male Nationality: Ontarian Gender: Male	I would presume that armless bipedalism in mammals could indeed occur. However, any sort need a way of balancing itself, like a tail.
	Current/Completed Projects - After the Holocene: Your run-of-the-mill future evolution project. - A History of the Odessa Rhinoceros: What happens when you ship 28 southern white rhinoceri to Texas and try and farm them? Quite a lot, actually. Future Projects - XenoSphere: The greatest zoo in the galaxy. - The Curious Case of the Woolly Giraffe: A case study of an eocene relic. - Untittled Asylum Studios-Based Project: The truth behind all the CGI schlock - Riggslandia V.II: A World 150 million years in the making Potential Projects - Klowns: The biology and culture of a creepy-yet-fascinating being My Zoochat and Fadom Accounts - Zoochat - Fandom


Fazaner	Aug 3 2017, 10:17 AM Post #3
Шашава птичурина Posts: 413 Group: Members Member #2,016 Joined: Nov 13, 2016 Gender: Male Area of expertise: Future Evolution Nationality: Serbian Favorite Quote: Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein Also known as: As long as I'm not offended, call me whatever you want	It is possible, but few things must be achieved first. Animal must become bipedal first, maybe to free front limbs for manipulation with food, than that limbs must become redundant, maybe it no longer have to use them for food manipulation, using head instead, Yi already mentioned need for balance method, mostly tail, and than the unnecessary feature would be lost, assuming it is not used for any purpose.
	Projects (they are not dead, just updated realy slowly, feel free to comment): -World after plague After a horrible plague unleashed by man nature slowly recovers. Now 36 million years later we take a look at this weird and wonderful world. -Galaxy on fire. They have left their home to get out of war. They had no idea what awaits them. My Deviant art profile, if you're curious. Before you get offended or butthurt read this -If something i say sounds racists or sexists, I AM NEITHER OF THOSE, it is language or cultural barrier, if you get offended please note me of that so i may correct myself. -English is not my native language, so gramar mistakes are expected, I will only accept your corrections if mistake makes comment unreadable, or if is something important like project post or com. Don't be a grammar-nazi, people dont like that. -I often use a common terms when writing, so yes I know birds are dinosaurs and that whales are cetaceans, no need to correct me i know that. -Sarcasm is something I commonly use in jokes, and before you get butthurt please check is it my sarcastic joke. -My goal is not to offend anyone, unless somebody is seriously getting on my nerves, and in that case all this is off!


kusanagi	Aug 3 2017, 10:22 AM Post #4
Adolescent Posts: 476 Group: Members Member #2,205 Joined: Jul 20, 2017 Gender: Female	I remember reading juvenile jerboas are initially quadropedal before becoming obligate bipeds but if New Zealand birds can become functionally arm-less I don't see why a mammal cannot.



Sheather	Aug 3 2017, 12:32 PM Post #5
Posts: 5,953 Group: Admin Member #999 Joined: Mar 13, 2013 Gender: Male Nationality: United States Favorite Quote: if tidepods are so good then why isn't there a tidepods 2 ~ Martin Also known as: Dylan	The tyrannorats were a group of carnivorous theropodal rodents which evolved on my terraformed planet project Sheatheria. Their earliest ancestors were gerbil-like early muroids, which went through an evolutionary history broadly equivalent to gerbil > jerboa > running omnivore with grasping hands > carnivore > carnivore which uses its jaws alone to kill, with reduced arms, until in some species only a single claw remained of the forearms. It would likely need some specific circumstances to occur on Earth, but there is nothing anatomically impossible about it.
	The Gaiaverse \| Eden \| Terra Metropolis \| Life of the Sylvan Islands \| Other Spec Evo \| Sheatheria \| Serina \| The Last Dinosaur A Wholesome and Good Thing \| Sam \|


ÐK	Aug 3 2017, 12:48 PM Post #6
Adult Posts: 628 Group: Members Member #1,043 Joined: Apr 29, 2013 Gender: Male Nationality: Scottish Favorite Quote: "In the absence of proper data, speculate wildly". ~Mark Witton, Pterosaurs Also known as: DrawingDinosaurs, D for Dong	Limb reduction and complete loss is a bit of a curiosity in mammals since, to my knowledge at least, it has never really occurred in any species of terrestrial mammal, or even any synapsid for that matter. Jerboas and kangaroo rats come the closest, but even then they still retain fully developed and functional arms, just at a smaller size relative to their bodies. Marine cetaceans and sirenians are the only synapsids I can think of that have reduced and lost their limbs to such a degree seen in sauroposids. I wonder if there's any constraints at all on terrestrial mammals as they are that doesn't facilitate total limb loss?
	~Projects~ • Earth Without Earth; Like nothing on Earth... Quote: In the absence of proper data, speculate wildy. ~Mark Witton, Pterosaurs (Chapter 3, page 18) Quote: pfft, DK making a project ~Troll Man, Skype (15/2/15) Quote: I'm sorry but in what alternative universe would thousands of zebras be sent back in time by some sort of illegal time travel group to change history and preparing them by making gigantic working animatronic allosaurs? ~Komodo, Zebra's sent back in time (4/1/13)


Archeoraptor	Aug 3 2017, 12:51 PM Post #7
"A living paradox" Posts: 1,110 Group: Members Member #1,356 Joined: Mar 1, 2014 Gender: Private Nationality: Español especulativo Favorite Quote: "god knows you will finally see,scars will heal but were meant to bleed Also known as: Archeo or that guy who misspells	most bipedal mammals use their front limbs to grab stuff or support on land
	Astarte an alt eocene world,now on long hiatus but you never know Fanauraa; The rebirth of Aotearoa future evo set in new zealand after a mass extinction coming soon......a world that was seeded with earth´s weridest and who knows what is coming next........... " I have to know what the world will be looking throw a future beyond us I have to know what could have been if fate acted in another way I have to know what lies on the unknown universe I have to know that the laws of thee universe can be broken throw The Spec I gain strength to the inner peace the is not good of evil only nature and change,the evolution of all livings beings" " Spoiler: click to toggle coming soon......a world seeded by outcast clades and some important easily forgotten ones.the world of the caecilians and company and who knows what is coming next...........[comming soon/spoiler] Spoiler: click to toggle Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Lyvatan The Wise? I thought not. It’s not a story the newbies would tell you. It’s a forum legend. Lyvatan was an admin of the forum, so powerful and so wise he could use science to influence the human imagination to create life… He had such a knowledge of the forum that he could even keep the ones he cared about from leaving.Speculative Evolution is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. He became so powerful… the only thing he was afraid of was losing his admin power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice banned him while he was offline. Ironic. He could save others from leaving the community, but not himself. Speccer´s Quotes "The moral of the story: never trust a catfish"-Bettleboy


kusanagi	Aug 3 2017, 12:55 PM Post #8
Adolescent Posts: 476 Group: Members Member #2,205 Joined: Jul 20, 2017 Gender: Female	Theropods didn't lose forelimbs either till they became wings near-useless for any other purposes. Tyrannosaurs and abelisaurs retain strong but short forelimbs.



Nembrotha	Aug 3 2017, 01:09 PM Post #9
Adolescent Posts: 415 Group: Members Member #2,144 Joined: Apr 23, 2017 Gender: Female Area of expertise: Alternate Evolution Nationality: Canadianese Also known as: Smol Birb Gender: I transcend gender	Funny thing is, moas lost their forelimbs and could balance without a tail.
	Journey to the Makrinocene, a world in the twilight hours of the Cenozoic! (Slightly Inactive, will eventually pick up) Come to Terra Fantasia, a bizarre world where nothing is as it seems! (Ongoing) Spoiler: click to toggle Oh, have you given up on this spoiler by now?


Sheather	Aug 3 2017, 01:16 PM Post #10
Posts: 5,953 Group: Admin Member #999 Joined: Mar 13, 2013 Gender: Male Nationality: United States Favorite Quote: if tidepods are so good then why isn't there a tidepods 2 ~ Martin Also known as: Dylan	I don't think the little fingers carried by a Majungasaurus were very useful.
	The Gaiaverse \| Eden \| Terra Metropolis \| Life of the Sylvan Islands \| Other Spec Evo \| Sheatheria \| Serina \| The Last Dinosaur A Wholesome and Good Thing \| Sam \|


kusanagi	Aug 3 2017, 01:32 PM Post #11
Adolescent Posts: 476 Group: Members Member #2,205 Joined: Jul 20, 2017 Gender: Female	Leaellynasaura72 Aug 3 2017, 01:09 PM Funny thing is, moas lost their forelimbs and could balance without a tail. Remembering the big continental ratite's all rely on forearms for balance when running and kicking, perhaps birds could only lose them in the absence of terrestrial predators? Maori hunted moa by tripping them and remember them as ill tempered similar to forest cassowaries. One interesting thing is that angry moa would strike with their bills, as ostrich-like ratites are not wont to, preferring to keep their head held back and aloft as they kick. Does this indicate poor balance compared to continental ratites?



ÐK	Aug 3 2017, 01:33 PM Post #12
Adult Posts: 628 Group: Members Member #1,043 Joined: Apr 29, 2013 Gender: Male Nationality: Scottish Favorite Quote: "In the absence of proper data, speculate wildly". ~Mark Witton, Pterosaurs Also known as: DrawingDinosaurs, D for Dong	As it happens, a recent study on the musculature of the arms of Majungasaurus was published the other day, and while they do find similarities to the muscular arrangement in living tetrapods with reduced limbs, they still recover areas of sizeable muscle attachments, including tubercles on at least some of the fingers that would provide them with some degree of flexion. At the very least, it implies the arms weren't wholly vestigial and still had some sort function, potentially even with some grasping going on, as minimal as it may be.
	~Projects~ • Earth Without Earth; Like nothing on Earth... Quote: In the absence of proper data, speculate wildy. ~Mark Witton, Pterosaurs (Chapter 3, page 18) Quote: pfft, DK making a project ~Troll Man, Skype (15/2/15) Quote: I'm sorry but in what alternative universe would thousands of zebras be sent back in time by some sort of illegal time travel group to change history and preparing them by making gigantic working animatronic allosaurs? ~Komodo, Zebra's sent back in time (4/1/13)


kusanagi	Aug 3 2017, 01:57 PM Post #13
Adolescent Posts: 476 Group: Members Member #2,205 Joined: Jul 20, 2017 Gender: Female	The same arguments were made for tyrannosaurids though the manus is very different: if you ignore the sternum and great claw of alvarezsaurs you can draw a parallel there as well, as the forelimb atrophies in total length but not sturdiness or strength. I suspect both that the clawed limbs remained useful at least for tactile purposes or as mating claspers, but also genes involved may have caused this pattern of limb reduction that seems strange to us but nonetheless was normal-ish in theropods. Edited by kusanagi, Aug 3 2017, 01:58 PM.



Tartarus	Aug 3 2017, 07:19 PM Post #14
Prime Specimen Posts: 1,774 Group: Members Member #705 Joined: Feb 1, 2012 Gender: Male Nationality: Australian	Yiqi15 Aug 3 2017, 10:05 AM However, any sort need a way of balancing itself, like a tail. Well the wakka has a tail so its got that part covered.



LittleLazyLass	Aug 5 2017, 01:49 PM Post #15
Proud quilt in a bag Posts: 8,639 Group: Global Mods Member #1,463 Joined: Jun 18, 2014 Area of expertise: Alternate Universes Nationality: Sorry, but why do you want to know aboot my nationality, eh? Uh... sorry, that was rude of me. Sorry. Favorite Quote: "you know you're a nerd when you search Wookieepedia for porn" Also known as: You can call me Little; full list of old names found through profile. Gender: Trans Questioning (see link in sig; feminine pronouns)	Ignoring the armless clause for a second, kusanagi pointed out in a general spec thread that one of the causes of bipedalism in mammals comes from heavy, large clawed forelimbs used to dig into insect mounds (such as in pangolins and giant armadillos). I wonder, could something like this evolve in a predatory animal - i.e. freeing up overdeveloped forelimbs to be the primary method of taking down prey, rather than the jaws?
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