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Polar Tyrannosaurid Feathering; It makes no sense
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Topic Started: Jul 30 2017, 07:19 PM (1,424 Views)
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YixianBirdBeast
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Jul 30 2017, 07:19 PM
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Why would a Tyrannosaurid from a northern environment suddenly go back to being feathered when all of it's closest relatives were fully covered in scaly skin? if Tyrannosaurus was completely covered in scaly skin then something like Nanuqsaurus should be covered in scaly skin instead of feathers too
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kusanagi
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Jul 30 2017, 07:42 PM
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Most theropods were not extensively feathered. Tyrannosaurs are not an exception. And if they were not insulated by feathers in frigid climates they must have used other means like subcutaneous fat.
Edited by kusanagi, Jul 30 2017, 07:52 PM.
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Ebervalius
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Jul 30 2017, 07:46 PM
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1- this does not go in Science Central 2-the information on Tyrannosaurine tegumentation we have is by no means conclusive, but since Nanuqsaurus was not only a polar animal, but also a dwarf by Tyrannosaurid standards, I would not be surprised if it turned out to have feathers.
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DroidSyber
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Jul 30 2017, 07:55 PM
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- YixianBirdBeast
- Jul 30 2017, 07:19 PM
Why would a Tyrannosaurid from a northern environment suddenly go back to being feathered when all of it's closest relatives were fully covered in scaly skin? if Tyrannosaurus was completely covered in scaly skin then something like Nanuqsaurus should be covered in scaly skin instead of feathers too 1. How is it in any way proven that tyrannosaurids were fully scaled? We have scale imprints from warm-climate animals, and mostly from areas that we have evidence of scaly skin on feathered animals. Feathers are also the ancesteral trait to tyrannosaurids, and so it makes no sense to just assume that since we have some scale impressions from tail and leg that now we will assume that all tyrannosaurids were predominantly scaly, no matter the size or climate.
2. Last I checked, Science Central is for sharing new scientific discoveries and research, and discussing them. This is you sharing your personal opinion inspired by a single scientific paper that shows, in the most controversial interpretation, that an elephant-sized active carnivore living in a climate mostly similar to Louisiana had lost all of it's downy covering. What you have posted is neither scientifically accurate based on current understanding, nor is it correct to be placed here. It would be much more appropriate in General discussion then here.
3. . The lifestyle, size, and climate Tyrannosaurus inhabited made something like complete featherlessness at least semi-logical. Nanuqsaurus was around the size of a polar bear, living in a climate at it's warmest similar to Ontario/ New York State in terms of tempature, and was probably cooler. The only reason I can see for an animal to loose it's insulated covering is for heat radiation, not in the slightest something Nanuqsaurus needed.
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Jul 30 2017, 08:06 PM
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LittleLazyLass
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Jul 30 2017, 08:16 PM
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Integument coverings wouldn't be constant across a family - just look at elephants and mammoths, or humans and chimps. Something like Tyrannosaurus reducing its feather covering significantly? Makes perfect sense, it was gigantic and lived in a fairly hot ecosystem. Somewhat smaller creatures in colder environments, like a Gorgosaurus? Probably a bit fuffier than that. Nanuqsaurus, the smallest tyrannosaurid and the one that lived in the coldest environment? I'd expect it to be primarily fuzzy.
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Jul 30 2017, 08:20 PM
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I feel the need to point out that just because T.rex wasn't fluffy doesn't mean it didn't have feathers. Elephants aren't fuzzy, but they have a thin coat of hair. Tyrannosaurus would probably have a thin coat of feathers.
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LittleLazyLass
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Jul 30 2017, 08:36 PM
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2. Last I checked, Science Central is for sharing new scientific discoveries and research, and discussing them. This is you sharing your personal opinion inspired by a single scientific paper that shows, in the most controversial interpretation, that an elephant-sized active carnivore living in a climate mostly similar to Louisiana had lost all of it's downy covering. What you have posted is neither scientifically accurate based on current understanding, nor is it correct to be placed here. It would be much more appropriate in General discussion then here.
To my understanding Science Central isn't actually restricted to new stuff, it's just that's all people use it for. I tried making a palaeontology general thread once (or dinosaurs general? Not sure) but it didn't catch on.
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The only reason I can see for an animal to loose it's insulated covering is for heat radiation, not in the slightest something Nanuqsaurus needed.
Well, there's a variety of factors at play. Heat radiation is part of it, which can come down to climate (see elephants and mammoths) or other aspects of the ecosystem (like it being shaded vs open to the sun; see Sumatran rhinos compared to other species), as well as obviously size (see all the obviously hairy antelope). There's also lifestyle - ostriches have reduced leg integument to run, hippos and fully aquatic mammals have no fur, and naked molerat skin is a whole other bag of worms. Our own species lost our hair for reasons that as far as I would guess relate to sweating, which comes down to both lifestyle and climate. If we assume Kulindadromeus fuzz was homologous to theropod fuzz, then even basal, small, forest dwelling ceratopsians like Psittacosaurus became predominantly scaly for some reason or another. Just saying "big thing hot weather lose feathers" is really selling the complexity of integument selection short.
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totally not British, b-baka!
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Yeah, and even if you don't agree with creationists on that concept, that doesn't mean they can't be decent people. I have friends who are creationist (possibly even young earth) that I get along with fine in general life. I don't think they're right of course, but that doesn't make them intellectual degenerates. ~~The Words of forbidden3
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Even though he is our creator, that does not afford him the right to take our lives on a whim. But that is the thinking of a homs. He is a god. Such morals cannot apply to gods. So you think we should just shut up and die?! If that is the fate decided by a god. You are mistaken if you think we will simply accept such a fate and wait to die. We'll never stop fighting. Not till the end. To Zanza, the outcome is the same. Thus your logic is flawed.
- Hades - Kid Icarus Uprising
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When freaky aliens give you lemons, make freaky alien lemonade.
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But Souls are delicious. They're like bacon - they taste good on anything. But if you eat them, you completely remove them from existence! They can't move on or... or be reincarnated! Huh. I never really gave it much thought. Besides, what do you mean by reincarnation anyway? You know, being reborn as someone or something else. Which means different body, different memories, different experiences, yes? So isn't being reborn as "something else" the same as being "removed from existence"? I... I... eating souls isn't right! That depends on your definition of "right". All living things survive by eating other living things. So what? You're a god. You should be above all that! Gods are above living things, which doesn't necessarily mean we care about them.
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You are being shagged... by a flightless parrot.
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HangingThief
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Jul 30 2017, 10:29 PM
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Yixian, are you by any chance trolling us? Someone who claims to know you from another site said you're a troll, and this thread is pretty incriminating.
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Hey.
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kusanagi
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Jul 31 2017, 08:44 AM
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- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 30 2017, 08:20 PM
I feel the need to point out that just because T.rex wasn't fluffy doesn't mean it didn't have feathers. Elephants aren't fuzzy, but they have a thin coat of hair. Tyrannosaurus would probably have a thin coat of feathers.  All land mammals have hair and its possible the reason they are never lost is because its primary function is not insulatory at all but tactile, helping to detect ectoparasites, for example. On the other hand elephant hair though sparse is thermoregularory: it helps them cool down believe it or not.
To my knowledge the hairless parts of theropods and ornithipods do not display micro-hairs like human or elephant skin. Perhaps coats of mammal hair were exapted from smal, scattered tactile precedents of a sort widely seen throughout the animal kindgom whereas that of dinosaurs and pterosaurs came from dermal display filaments? The latter fits the ornithischian evidence and to some degree maybe the theropod evidence but I don't see any pterosaur evidence. What pterosaur hair/plumage is known is insulatory whereas that of cerapods and heterodontosaurs is not.
Hairlessness in mammals is not well understood. People who followed the aquatic ape theory and criticism thereof will have acquired a notion that hairless mammals other than man himself are either aquatic, large mud wallowers or fossorial. Besides man himself as an outlier each of these generalisations is a bit problematic: an aardvark or a warthog is very different in its degree of fossoriality from a naked mole rat and so might hardly be comparable. Another pig called the babirusa includes both naked forms and the hairiest wild pigs of all within the same kind of habitat and climate. And so on. The underbellies of Pan and Gorilla show hairlessness in a tropical forest climate so hominins primitively inhabited a degree of nudeness. Some ethnohistorical hunter gatherers in Tasmania and Fuego walked around in the cold without clothing although unlike other cold climate mammals they did have fire. And finally other than dorsal and display feathers the ostrich is almost featherless if you care to look at its thighs or behind its wings. It is very hard to generalise from these cases of various mammals and one ratite why hair or feathers are lost on land. All cold climate mammals and presumably dinosaurs are however naturally insulated unless they can rely on technology.
Edited by kusanagi, Jul 31 2017, 09:21 AM.
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LittleLazyLass
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Jul 31 2017, 10:23 AM
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To my knowledge the hairless parts of theropods and ornithipods do not display micro-hairs like human or elephant skin. It's hard to say; we know feathers and presumably other dinosaur filaments can coexist on the same part of the body as scales, and we also know that feathers do not preserve as easily as scales, particularly in the sort of three-dimensional preservation that tyrannosaur, ceratopsid, and ornithopod scale impressions come from. So having those kinds of small filaments is indeed possible.
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totally not British, b-baka!
You like me (Unlike) I don't even really like this song that much but the title is pretty relatable sometimes, I guess.
Me  Forum user Uncanny Gemstar drew what is supposed to be a me. Thanks! Spoiler: click to toggle As they walk in, they're greeted by a small, poorly kept pathway leading to a poorly constructed Japanese-style gate. Behind this, a small field made up of corn, rice, wheat, potatoes, among other plants is contrasted by large piles of books, as well as a few rather out of place looking laptops. Off in the corner, a small woman, with long, striped, and strikingly colorful socks, no shoes, unremarkable denim shorts, a large, fancy black coat, arm warmers, glasses, a tuque, and somewhat unkempt, mid-length blue-and-pink-streaked red hair, is rummaging through a trash bin, located behind a sign saying "employees only". She continues this for a while (walking behind a wall to change her outfit now and then), until one of her visitors coughs. Startled, she looks up, apologizes, and grabs a handful of textbooks and novels before daintily running off to join them. What, you want me to tell you what these mean? Predenterra The (Lost) Lost World The Standing World Read First Clarifications on my sex and genderSorry if I come off as rude, I don't put much thought into word choice sometimes. I'm also super prone to editing my posts, sometimes multiple times, in the minutes following posting. For the love of god, take my posts from my earlier days on the forum with a grain of salt. I was not particularly knowledgeable or mature back then. Some of them are so cringe-worthy I can't even bring myself to look at them. Words Maybe Great Words - Words To Spec By
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It would have to be something extremely alien, pushing the limits of our imagination. But those are always my favorite kinds of life. ~~The Words of The Xenologist
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Ignorance is never insulting if you're willing to learn, we're all ignorant about most things. ~~The Words of Lamna
- Words I Live By
-
Yeah, and even if you don't agree with creationists on that concept, that doesn't mean they can't be decent people. I have friends who are creationist (possibly even young earth) that I get along with fine in general life. I don't think they're right of course, but that doesn't make them intellectual degenerates. ~~The Words of forbidden3
Member Quotes - jman123
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Ass-breathing fish-lizards? Sounds like a punk rock band
- Sheather
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"Holy fucking shit a toilet paper roll! Our favorite thing!"
- Urufumarukai
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Tyrannosaurus aquastronka
- Kamineigh
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Myo, if you don't stop reading the YouTube comments...
- Lamna
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Are you saying what I think you're saying?
Sheather bathes in cum?
- Cephylus
-
And last night I dreamed I was blowing up a Kindergarten with a grenade launcher for no particular reason...
- revin
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Oh, and of course more people get killed by selfies than by sharks. Of course.
- Parasky
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SHEEEEAAAAATTTTTTHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
- whachamacalit2
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The smell of rotting flesh really kills my appetite, surprising, but the visual appearance of corpses makes me hungry. Is that weird?
- Ebervalius
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I mean, let us say I'm a genderfluid blurflux demi-romantic woman who is sexually attracted to men, but only if they are Melanesian and have a voice like that of Nicholas Cage. Okay, so what?
- trex841
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When I first saw that picture, I thought you were dissecting a condom.
- Mr Mysterio
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All hail Robo-Stalin.
- Peashyjah
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Seems like everything in this project is now dead.
- Stealth Rock
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Seagulls are pretty much trees, right?
- Watcher
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We all must finish chapters of our lives to go on to the next. Sometime this means leaving behind versions of ourselves that don't want to die.
- Yiqi15
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For April fool's, we had to make an orgasm that resembled a human foot.
- Flisch
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im the black market
- CaledonianWarrior96
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He was a skater birb, she said tweet you later birb
- Most People at Some Point
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Quotes - Some dude called plucas1 from Youtube comments
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Funny, isn't it, that our world needs Clark Kent a lot more than Superman.
- Xenoblade Chronicles
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Even though he is our creator, that does not afford him the right to take our lives on a whim. But that is the thinking of a homs. He is a god. Such morals cannot apply to gods. So you think we should just shut up and die?! If that is the fate decided by a god. You are mistaken if you think we will simply accept such a fate and wait to die. We'll never stop fighting. Not till the end. To Zanza, the outcome is the same. Thus your logic is flawed.
- Hades - Kid Icarus Uprising
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When freaky aliens give you lemons, make freaky alien lemonade.
- Kid Icarus Uprising
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But Souls are delicious. They're like bacon - they taste good on anything. But if you eat them, you completely remove them from existence! They can't move on or... or be reincarnated! Huh. I never really gave it much thought. Besides, what do you mean by reincarnation anyway? You know, being reborn as someone or something else. Which means different body, different memories, different experiences, yes? So isn't being reborn as "something else" the same as being "removed from existence"? I... I... eating souls isn't right! That depends on your definition of "right". All living things survive by eating other living things. So what? You're a god. You should be above all that! Gods are above living things, which doesn't necessarily mean we care about them.
- Some Dude on BBC Two
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You are being shagged... by a flightless parrot.
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kusanagi
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Jul 31 2017, 10:59 AM
Post #12
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- Posts:
- 476
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #2,205
- Joined:
- Jul 20, 2017
- Gender:
- Female
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- Little
- Jul 31 2017, 10:23 AM
- Quote:
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To my knowledge the hairless parts of theropods and ornithipods do not display micro-hairs like human or elephant skin.
It's hard to say; we know feathers and presumably other dinosaur filaments can coexist on the same part of the body as scales, and we also know that feathers do not preserve as easily as scales, particularly in the sort of three-dimensional preservation that tyrannosaur, ceratopsid, and ornithopod scale impressions come from. So having those kinds of small filaments is indeed possible. But although there are birds with feathered feet, scaly bird feet do not have small, tactile feathers. My argument from this is that while feathers and hair are analogous when they exist in pelts, only mammal hair has a secondary function that feathers lack. Is it relevant that mammal skin is more complex overall than that of reptiles, birds included?
Against this is the tactile facial whiskering of kiwis with possible whisker pits sometimes recognised in Mesozoic dinosaurs and even notosuchians. Feathers may then have a tactile function but never do they form an equivalent of human, elephant or mole rat body hair in the partial absence of a pelt. Instead the suppressed feathers become reticulae of bird feet.
Edited by kusanagi, Jul 31 2017, 11:03 AM.
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Ebervalius
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Jul 31 2017, 12:10 PM
Post #13
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- Posts:
- 2,519
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #720
- Joined:
- Feb 24, 2012
- Gender:
- Male
- Area of expertise:
- Alternate Evolution
- Nationality:
- Citizen of the World (actually Brazilian, but countries are spooks anyway)
- Favorite Quote:
- Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire
- Gender:
- I identify as Oxalaia Quilombensis
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- HangingThief
- Jul 30 2017, 10:29 PM
Yixian, are you by any chance trolling us? Someone who claims to know you from another site said you're a troll, and this thread is pretty incriminating. Why is it incriminating?
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The Sirens of the Land of Fire Codex Ebervaliorum
Spoiler: click to toggle  "Who are you?"
 "I am you but stronger"
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HangingThief
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Jul 31 2017, 01:28 PM
Post #14
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- Posts:
- 1,238
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- Members
- Member
- #1,870
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- Feb 10, 2016
- Gender:
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- Nationality:
- Yank
- Also known as:
- A noxious pest of livestock and stored grain products.
- Gender:
- Chitinous
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- Ebervalius
- Jul 31 2017, 12:10 PM
- HangingThief
- Jul 30 2017, 10:29 PM
Yixian, are you by any chance trolling us? Someone who claims to know you from another site said you're a troll, and this thread is pretty incriminating.
Why is it incriminating? The fact that he created a thread with an incredibly uninformed statement about a topic that's known to cause vicious arguments incriminates him as a troll to me. Especially since this is the same statement that got him told off by several people when he worded it much more rudely in another thread.
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Hey.
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LittleLazyLass
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Jul 31 2017, 01:36 PM
Post #15
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Proud quilt in a bag
- Posts:
- 8,633
- Group:
- Global Mods
- Member
- #1,463
- Joined:
- Jun 18, 2014
- Area of expertise:
- Alternate Universes
- Nationality:
- Sorry, but why do you want to know aboot my nationality, eh? Uh... sorry, that was rude of me. Sorry.
- Favorite Quote:
- "you know you're a nerd when you search Wookieepedia for porn"
- Also known as:
- You can call me Little; full list of old names found through profile.
- Gender:
- Trans Questioning (see link in sig; feminine pronouns)
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An uninformed statement and returning to a topic he got a three-day ban for does necessarily show somebody is a troll as opposed to, being nice, them not being very bright. It is something trolls will do, but on its own cannot be considered evidence.
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totally not British, b-baka!
You like me (Unlike) I don't even really like this song that much but the title is pretty relatable sometimes, I guess.
Me  Forum user Uncanny Gemstar drew what is supposed to be a me. Thanks! Spoiler: click to toggle As they walk in, they're greeted by a small, poorly kept pathway leading to a poorly constructed Japanese-style gate. Behind this, a small field made up of corn, rice, wheat, potatoes, among other plants is contrasted by large piles of books, as well as a few rather out of place looking laptops. Off in the corner, a small woman, with long, striped, and strikingly colorful socks, no shoes, unremarkable denim shorts, a large, fancy black coat, arm warmers, glasses, a tuque, and somewhat unkempt, mid-length blue-and-pink-streaked red hair, is rummaging through a trash bin, located behind a sign saying "employees only". She continues this for a while (walking behind a wall to change her outfit now and then), until one of her visitors coughs. Startled, she looks up, apologizes, and grabs a handful of textbooks and novels before daintily running off to join them. What, you want me to tell you what these mean? Predenterra The (Lost) Lost World The Standing World Read First Clarifications on my sex and genderSorry if I come off as rude, I don't put much thought into word choice sometimes. I'm also super prone to editing my posts, sometimes multiple times, in the minutes following posting. For the love of god, take my posts from my earlier days on the forum with a grain of salt. I was not particularly knowledgeable or mature back then. Some of them are so cringe-worthy I can't even bring myself to look at them. Words Maybe Great Words - Words To Spec By
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It would have to be something extremely alien, pushing the limits of our imagination. But those are always my favorite kinds of life. ~~The Words of The Xenologist
- Words To Live By
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Ignorance is never insulting if you're willing to learn, we're all ignorant about most things. ~~The Words of Lamna
- Words I Live By
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Yeah, and even if you don't agree with creationists on that concept, that doesn't mean they can't be decent people. I have friends who are creationist (possibly even young earth) that I get along with fine in general life. I don't think they're right of course, but that doesn't make them intellectual degenerates. ~~The Words of forbidden3
Member Quotes - jman123
-
Ass-breathing fish-lizards? Sounds like a punk rock band
- Sheather
-
"Holy fucking shit a toilet paper roll! Our favorite thing!"
- Urufumarukai
-
Tyrannosaurus aquastronka
- Kamineigh
-
Myo, if you don't stop reading the YouTube comments...
- Lamna
-
Are you saying what I think you're saying?
Sheather bathes in cum?
- Cephylus
-
And last night I dreamed I was blowing up a Kindergarten with a grenade launcher for no particular reason...
- revin
-
Oh, and of course more people get killed by selfies than by sharks. Of course.
- Parasky
-
SHEEEEAAAAATTTTTTHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
- whachamacalit2
-
The smell of rotting flesh really kills my appetite, surprising, but the visual appearance of corpses makes me hungry. Is that weird?
- Ebervalius
-
I mean, let us say I'm a genderfluid blurflux demi-romantic woman who is sexually attracted to men, but only if they are Melanesian and have a voice like that of Nicholas Cage. Okay, so what?
- trex841
-
When I first saw that picture, I thought you were dissecting a condom.
- Mr Mysterio
-
All hail Robo-Stalin.
- Peashyjah
-
Seems like everything in this project is now dead.
- Stealth Rock
-
Seagulls are pretty much trees, right?
- Watcher
-
We all must finish chapters of our lives to go on to the next. Sometime this means leaving behind versions of ourselves that don't want to die.
- Yiqi15
-
For April fool's, we had to make an orgasm that resembled a human foot.
- Flisch
-
im the black market
- CaledonianWarrior96
-
He was a skater birb, she said tweet you later birb
- Most People at Some Point
-
Quotes - Some dude called plucas1 from Youtube comments
-
Funny, isn't it, that our world needs Clark Kent a lot more than Superman.
- Xenoblade Chronicles
-
Even though he is our creator, that does not afford him the right to take our lives on a whim. But that is the thinking of a homs. He is a god. Such morals cannot apply to gods. So you think we should just shut up and die?! If that is the fate decided by a god. You are mistaken if you think we will simply accept such a fate and wait to die. We'll never stop fighting. Not till the end. To Zanza, the outcome is the same. Thus your logic is flawed.
- Hades - Kid Icarus Uprising
-
When freaky aliens give you lemons, make freaky alien lemonade.
- Kid Icarus Uprising
-
But Souls are delicious. They're like bacon - they taste good on anything. But if you eat them, you completely remove them from existence! They can't move on or... or be reincarnated! Huh. I never really gave it much thought. Besides, what do you mean by reincarnation anyway? You know, being reborn as someone or something else. Which means different body, different memories, different experiences, yes? So isn't being reborn as "something else" the same as being "removed from existence"? I... I... eating souls isn't right! That depends on your definition of "right". All living things survive by eating other living things. So what? You're a god. You should be above all that! Gods are above living things, which doesn't necessarily mean we care about them.
- Some Dude on BBC Two
-
You are being shagged... by a flightless parrot.
Stuff
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