Large Mesothermic Birds?

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Large Mesothermic Birds?; How big can birds get?
Topic Started: Jul 14 2017, 11:20 AM (1,632 Views)
9Weegee	Jul 14 2017, 11:20 AM Post #1
Newborn Posts: 59 Group: Members Member #2,176 Joined: Jun 23, 2017 Gender: Male	I'm making a spec Evo project called the Lateoic, and the dominant species is birds. I want to make a large type of bird, but I need to know how big flightless birds can get.



Yiqi15	Jul 14 2017, 11:34 AM Post #2
Prime Specimen Posts: 1,443 Group: Members Member #1,998 Joined: Oct 10, 2016 Gender: Male Nationality: Ontarian Gender: Male	Flightless birds can definitely get pretty big, as seen with the elephant birds and moas. Also factoring in is availability of resources and competition from other classes.
	Current/Completed Projects - After the Holocene: Your run-of-the-mill future evolution project. - A History of the Odessa Rhinoceros: What happens when you ship 28 southern white rhinoceri to Texas and try and farm them? Quite a lot, actually. Future Projects - XenoSphere: The greatest zoo in the galaxy. - The Curious Case of the Woolly Giraffe: A case study of an eocene relic. - Untittled Asylum Studios-Based Project: The truth behind all the CGI schlock - Riggslandia V.II: A World 150 million years in the making Potential Projects - Klowns: The biology and culture of a creepy-yet-fascinating being My Zoochat and Fadom Accounts - Zoochat - Fandom


IIGSY	Jul 14 2017, 12:05 PM Post #3
A huntsman spider that wastes time on the internet because it has nothing better to do Posts: 3,763 Group: Members Member #1,987 Joined: Sep 11, 2016 Gender: Male Area of expertise: Future Evolution Favorite Quote: Don't have one Also known as: Anomonys Gender: male	Yiqi15 Jul 14 2017, 11:34 AM Flightless birds can definitely get pretty big, as seen with the elephant birds and moas. Also factoring in is availability of resources and competition from other classes. Quote: Also factoring in is availability of resources and competition from other classes. Quote: resources and competition from other classes. Quote: competition from other classes Quote: other classes Quote: classes Intellectuals use cladistics. This is a joke please don't take it seriously. Edited by IIGSY, Jul 14 2017, 12:06 PM.
	Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess) Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents. Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif "Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif "Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis "He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH! C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh "RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little "In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep. Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh "Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups In honor of the greatest clade of all time More pictures Other cool things http://rob-powell.deviantart.com/art/Venacarpia-carcarius-275086084 http://rob-powell.deviantart.com/art/Extreme-Sexual-Dimorphs-294860775 https://books.google.com/books?id=m-_cCgAAQBAJ&pg=PT94&lpg=PT94&dq=vertebrate+chauvinism&source=bl&ots=CenrvpmqxP&sig=sURud3Duu3K-2FEPdM9ls5ScDeA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjO1or7tIbTAhWGLSYKHUvLAjwQ6AEIcDAR#v=onepage&q=vertebrate%20chauvinism&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=wKbfbLf-SoUC&pg=PA282&lpg=PA282&dq=colonization+of+land+by+nematodes&source=bl&ots=0Z260TBWMQ&sig=JDFVZjaOIpYvEo9KaiLyUSEPK2g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjHrZ2dh5bTAhXMSSYKHUq_DboQ6AEIRDAF#v=onepage&q=colonization%20of%20land%20by%20nematodes&f=false All African countries can fit into Brazil


Dragonthunders	Jul 14 2017, 12:46 PM Post #4
The ethereal archosaur in blue Posts: 3,039 Group: Global Mods Member #690 Joined: Jan 22, 2012 Gender: Male Nationality: Salvadoran Favorite Quote: "There is only one war that can afford the human being: the war against their extinction" Isaac Asimov Also known as: DT, thunders Gender: still male	As Yiqi15 said, birds get pretty larger before, some taller as 3 m and with weights of half of a ton, however, if you want to make them longer as their theropodal ancestors for example, there would have to be a significant anatomical change in their hips to do so. The lack of a tail has caused their hips to project far forward to maintain a balance. So if you can make your future birds to develop a tail or an elongated structure of the same nature, you could obtain much larger species of birds.
	Projects "Active" projects The Future is Far Welcome to the next chapters of the evolution of life on earth, travel the across the earth on a journey that goes beyond the limits, a billion years of future history in the making. The SE giants project Wonder what is the big of the big on speculative evolution? no problem, here is the answer Coming one day Age of Mankind Humanity fate and its possible finals. The Long Cosmic Journey The history outside our world. The alternative paths The multiverse, the final frontier... Holocene park: Welcome to the biggest adventure of the last 215 million years, where the age of mammals comes to life again! Cambrian mars: An interesting experiment on an unprecedented scale, the life of a particular and important period in the history of our planet, the cambric life, has been transported to a terraformed and habitable mars in an alternative past. Two different paths, two different worlds, but same life and same weirdness. My deviantart


9Weegee	Jul 14 2017, 01:00 PM Post #5
Newborn Posts: 59 Group: Members Member #2,176 Joined: Jun 23, 2017 Gender: Male	I don't want tails on birds, honestly. I was thinking of giving the larger birds a more bipedal stance



Nyarlathotep	Jul 14 2017, 01:03 PM Post #6
The Creeping Chaos Posts: 1,301 Group: Members Member #1,358 Joined: Mar 2, 2014 Gender: Male Area of expertise: Future Evolution Nationality: English Gender: Redundant much redundant?	Depends what you are after to be honest. On one hand, the largest known bipeds in history were the giant South African sauropodomorph, which may have reached as much as 14 tonnes- similar to a large steppe mammoth. So that could be near the limit for bipedal animals under Earth gravity. If not, then the largest theropod known is T.rex, which maxes at 8.4-8.8 tonnes (the GDI estimate for Sue). On the other hand, birds do lack the balancing tails of theropods so that might undermine it. Theoretically, they could have a more upright posture and 'big' hips and legs to act as a substitute for balance, thus distributing the weight in a different way. Of course, a strong spine and pillar like legs would be essential for such a lifestyle, though it would be optimal for giant browsers if that's what you're after. I think the latter possibility would be more interesting to speculate on than just theropods 2.0 which can be too generic. Mesothermy would be helpful, though not necessary in cooler climates. Warm lush climates though definitely would need it. Bird digestive systems aren't the most efficient either so they could adopt a sauropod like system of feeding too, though they could do something else if you wanted to be distinct.



Yiqi15	Jul 14 2017, 01:10 PM Post #7
Prime Specimen Posts: 1,443 Group: Members Member #1,998 Joined: Oct 10, 2016 Gender: Male Nationality: Ontarian Gender: Male	Nyarlathotep Jul 14 2017, 01:03 PM On one hand, the largest known bipeds in history were the giant South African sauropodomorph, which may have reached as much as 14 tonnes- similar to a large steppe mammoth. So that could be near the limit for bipedal animals under Earth gravity. If not, then the largest theropod known is T.rex, which maxes at 8.4-8.8 tonnes (the GDI estimate for Sue). I see what you did there.
	Current/Completed Projects - After the Holocene: Your run-of-the-mill future evolution project. - A History of the Odessa Rhinoceros: What happens when you ship 28 southern white rhinoceri to Texas and try and farm them? Quite a lot, actually. Future Projects - XenoSphere: The greatest zoo in the galaxy. - The Curious Case of the Woolly Giraffe: A case study of an eocene relic. - Untittled Asylum Studios-Based Project: The truth behind all the CGI schlock - Riggslandia V.II: A World 150 million years in the making Potential Projects - Klowns: The biology and culture of a creepy-yet-fascinating being My Zoochat and Fadom Accounts - Zoochat - Fandom


9Weegee	Jul 14 2017, 01:27 PM Post #8
Newborn Posts: 59 Group: Members Member #2,176 Joined: Jun 23, 2017 Gender: Male	oh and should I also mention that like large tyrannosaurs, these birds have lost all of their feathers



Archeoraptor	Jul 14 2017, 01:43 PM Post #9
"A living paradox" Posts: 1,110 Group: Members Member #1,356 Joined: Mar 1, 2014 Gender: Private Nationality: Español especulativo Favorite Quote: "god knows you will finally see,scars will heal but were meant to bleed Also known as: Archeo or that guy who misspells	we aren´t 100% sure of the t-rex thing,it may have a mix of feathers and scales,somewhere I heard holloow bones on birds don´t allow them to be as big as other naiamls but afaik sauropods and teropods also had them unless I´m confusing them with air sacks still birds coulññd lose hollow bones liek penguins did,still nto sure about this so don´t takerinto accoutn unless soemonme probesit
	Astarte an alt eocene world,now on long hiatus but you never know Fanauraa; The rebirth of Aotearoa future evo set in new zealand after a mass extinction coming soon......a world that was seeded with earth´s weridest and who knows what is coming next........... " I have to know what the world will be looking throw a future beyond us I have to know what could have been if fate acted in another way I have to know what lies on the unknown universe I have to know that the laws of thee universe can be broken throw The Spec I gain strength to the inner peace the is not good of evil only nature and change,the evolution of all livings beings" " Spoiler: click to toggle coming soon......a world seeded by outcast clades and some important easily forgotten ones.the world of the caecilians and company and who knows what is coming next...........[comming soon/spoiler] Spoiler: click to toggle Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Lyvatan The Wise? I thought not. It’s not a story the newbies would tell you. It’s a forum legend. Lyvatan was an admin of the forum, so powerful and so wise he could use science to influence the human imagination to create life… He had such a knowledge of the forum that he could even keep the ones he cared about from leaving.Speculative Evolution is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. He became so powerful… the only thing he was afraid of was losing his admin power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice banned him while he was offline. Ironic. He could save others from leaving the community, but not himself. Speccer´s Quotes "The moral of the story: never trust a catfish"-Bettleboy


Gojiratheking106	Jul 14 2017, 01:50 PM Post #10
Newborn Posts: 33 Group: Members Member #2,183 Joined: Jun 30, 2017 Gender: Male Nationality: Spanish	The thing about T.rex and the limits of feathers on a big dinosaur is, as Archeoraptor said, still not known. All we got are patches of 1 mm scales the size of coins in areas which are usually scaly in feathered animals. Scales and feathers right now are equally possible. Hell, Paul Sereno said once that he has a T.rex skin patch that looks like bare, bird-like skin, making the thing a lot more complicated.



9Weegee	Jul 14 2017, 03:55 PM Post #11
Newborn Posts: 59 Group: Members Member #2,176 Joined: Jun 23, 2017 Gender: Male	First off, the scale impressions are not as small as a "coin". they are larger, and are found on areas that are normally depicted with feathers, for example, the illium, the back, and the top of the neck. not only that, but we can also find out that from other tyrannosaurs, with similar patches of scales. tyrannosaurs were most likley scaly. Second off, your obviously quoting Trey the Explainer. He makes baseless assumptions and doesen't back it up too well, and he smells of bias from miles away.



IIGSY	Jul 14 2017, 04:02 PM Post #12
A huntsman spider that wastes time on the internet because it has nothing better to do Posts: 3,763 Group: Members Member #1,987 Joined: Sep 11, 2016 Gender: Male Area of expertise: Future Evolution Favorite Quote: Don't have one Also known as: Anomonys Gender: male	Dragonthunders Jul 14 2017, 12:46 PM As Yiqi15 said, birds get pretty larger before, some taller as 3 m and with weights of half of a ton, however, if you want to make them longer as their theropodal ancestors for example, there would have to be a significant anatomical change in their hips to do so. The lack of a tail has caused their hips to project far forward to maintain a balance. So if you can make your future birds to develop a tail or an elongated structure of the same nature, you could obtain much larger species of birds. Didn't the future is far have giant geese?
	Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess) Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents. Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif "Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif "Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis "He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH! C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh "RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little "In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep. Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh "Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups In honor of the greatest clade of all time More pictures Other cool things http://rob-powell.deviantart.com/art/Venacarpia-carcarius-275086084 http://rob-powell.deviantart.com/art/Extreme-Sexual-Dimorphs-294860775 https://books.google.com/books?id=m-_cCgAAQBAJ&pg=PT94&lpg=PT94&dq=vertebrate+chauvinism&source=bl&ots=CenrvpmqxP&sig=sURud3Duu3K-2FEPdM9ls5ScDeA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjO1or7tIbTAhWGLSYKHUvLAjwQ6AEIcDAR#v=onepage&q=vertebrate%20chauvinism&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=wKbfbLf-SoUC&pg=PA282&lpg=PA282&dq=colonization+of+land+by+nematodes&source=bl&ots=0Z260TBWMQ&sig=JDFVZjaOIpYvEo9KaiLyUSEPK2g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjHrZ2dh5bTAhXMSSYKHUq_DboQ6AEIRDAF#v=onepage&q=colonization%20of%20land%20by%20nematodes&f=false All African countries can fit into Brazil


Gojiratheking106	Jul 14 2017, 04:06 PM Post #13
Newborn Posts: 33 Group: Members Member #2,183 Joined: Jun 30, 2017 Gender: Male Nationality: Spanish	Well, not all are, but they are really small for a multiton animal. There are no impressions from the back and the neck one isn't specified. We just know it's from the neck. And the illum doesn't really tell us a lot. Tail was naked, the illum was pretty close. Furthermore, in Bell et. al. it was mentioned that feathers along the back are still possible. And no, I'm basing this off Thomas R. Holtz, Andrea Cau and Paul Sereno's word. Plus Trey's logic, while maybe a little biased, seems alright to me.



Talenkauen	Jul 14 2017, 04:17 PM Post #14
Perpetually paranoid iguanodont Posts: 615 Group: Members Member #1,645 Joined: Mar 4, 2015 Area of expertise: Alternate Universes Favorite Quote: "Too many people have opinions on things they know nothing about. And the more ignorant they are, the more opinions they have." - Thomas Hildern, Fallout: New Vegas Also known as: The Sea Dumpling	Yeah, even with the scaly patches, I don't see any reason why T.rex still can't occur along the neck,back and tail. I don't agree with Trey either, at least on certain levels (especially is abhorrent mispronunciations), but that claim doesn't just come from him. A lotta experts say it, too.
	PLEASE NOTE: If I come off as harsh or demanding whilst talking to you, please tell me. I apologize in advance..... UPCOMING PROJECTS: Projects here There are none. I'm not smart enough to make one.


LittleLazyLass	Jul 14 2017, 04:42 PM Post #15
Proud quilt in a bag Posts: 8,639 Group: Global Mods Member #1,463 Joined: Jun 18, 2014 Area of expertise: Alternate Universes Nationality: Sorry, but why do you want to know aboot my nationality, eh? Uh... sorry, that was rude of me. Sorry. Favorite Quote: "you know you're a nerd when you search Wookieepedia for porn" Also known as: You can call me Little; full list of old names found through profile. Gender: Trans Questioning (see link in sig; feminine pronouns)	Yeah Trey the Explainer wasn't some one off in this case, other people like those Gojiraking specified made various points about why the study could be wrong. The consensus is very much that Tyrannosaurus might've been scaled or feathered, we just don't know.
	totally not British, b-baka! You like me (Unlike) I don't even really like this song that much but the title is pretty relatable sometimes, I guess. Me Forum user Uncanny Gemstar drew what is supposed to be a me. Thanks! Spoiler: click to toggle As they walk in, they're greeted by a small, poorly kept pathway leading to a poorly constructed Japanese-style gate. Behind this, a small field made up of corn, rice, wheat, potatoes, among other plants is contrasted by large piles of books, as well as a few rather out of place looking laptops. Off in the corner, a small woman, with long, striped, and strikingly colorful socks, no shoes, unremarkable denim shorts, a large, fancy black coat, arm warmers, glasses, a tuque, and somewhat unkempt, mid-length blue-and-pink-streaked red hair, is rummaging through a trash bin, located behind a sign saying "employees only". She continues this for a while (walking behind a wall to change her outfit now and then), until one of her visitors coughs. 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But those are always my favorite kinds of life. ~~The Words of The Xenologist Words To Live By Ignorance is never insulting if you're willing to learn, we're all ignorant about most things. ~~The Words of Lamna Words I Live By Yeah, and even if you don't agree with creationists on that concept, that doesn't mean they can't be decent people. I have friends who are creationist (possibly even young earth) that I get along with fine in general life. I don't think they're right of course, but that doesn't make them intellectual degenerates. ~~The Words of forbidden3 Member Quotes jman123 Ass-breathing fish-lizards? Sounds like a punk rock band Sheather "Holy fucking shit a toilet paper roll! Our favorite thing!" Urufumarukai Tyrannosaurus aquastronka Kamineigh Myo, if you don't stop reading the YouTube comments... Lamna Are you saying what I think you're saying? Sheather bathes in cum? 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Yiqi15 For April fool's, we had to make an orgasm that resembled a human foot. Flisch im the black market CaledonianWarrior96 He was a skater birb, she said tweet you later birb Most People at Some Point Quotes Some dude called plucas1 from Youtube comments Funny, isn't it, that our world needs Clark Kent a lot more than Superman. Xenoblade Chronicles Even though he is our creator, that does not afford him the right to take our lives on a whim. But that is the thinking of a homs. He is a god. Such morals cannot apply to gods. So you think we should just shut up and die?! If that is the fate decided by a god. You are mistaken if you think we will simply accept such a fate and wait to die. We'll never stop fighting. Not till the end. To Zanza, the outcome is the same. Thus your logic is flawed. Hades - Kid Icarus Uprising When freaky aliens give you lemons, make freaky alien lemonade. Kid Icarus Uprising But Souls are delicious. They're like bacon - they taste good on anything. But if you eat them, you completely remove them from existence! They can't move on or... or be reincarnated! Huh. I never really gave it much thought. Besides, what do you mean by reincarnation anyway? You know, being reborn as someone or something else. Which means different body, different memories, different experiences, yes? So isn't being reborn as "something else" the same as being "removed from existence"? I... I... eating souls isn't right! That depends on your definition of "right". All living things survive by eating other living things. So what? You're a god. You should be above all that! Gods are above living things, which doesn't necessarily mean we care about them. Some Dude on BBC Two You are being shagged... by a flightless parrot. Stuff http://imgur.com/gallery/Tshu9


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