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The real sea wolves
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Topic Started: Jun 30 2017, 08:12 AM (928 Views)
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kusanagi
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Aug 12 2017, 06:40 PM
Post #16
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- Rodlox
- Aug 12 2017, 04:43 PM
- kusanagi
- Aug 12 2017, 03:09 PM
- Troy Troodon
- Aug 12 2017, 11:31 AM
Impressive, though I still think the real title of 'Wolves of the Sea' go to Orcas. Though looking at this now, I can easily see them following in the footsteps of Polar Bears, as opposed to otters or pinnipeds or especially cetaceans
But eating barnacles points to early stages of durophagous invertivory. Though yes polar bears have gone another route as amphibious predators of pinnipeds, this is atypical for non-pinniped marine carnivorans. While I'm at it Sardolutra was a fast swimming piscivore but other than polar bears was the exception. It seems difficult for land carnivores to adapt to piscivory at least in the presence of established clades, so there is a bias to invertivory.
difficult...except where it wasn't. such as early whales. Whales are not Carnivora and were probably the source of competitive exclusion. Not many whales have ever been durophages, nor for that matter have they been specialist predators of pinnipeds. (Something a bear does better when the seals are on pack ice.) So yea the point still stands, new marine Carnivora at least since pinnipeds shared the niches with whales, are excluded from marine ecosystems. The established clades are too good at it.
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Scrublord
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Aug 12 2017, 06:59 PM
Post #17
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Might these semi-aquatic wolves give us some sort of insight into how the land-dwelling ancestors of whales lived?
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Rodlox
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Aug 12 2017, 09:28 PM
Post #18
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- kusanagi
- Aug 12 2017, 06:40 PM
- Rodlox
- Aug 12 2017, 04:43 PM
- kusanagi
- Aug 12 2017, 03:09 PM
- Troy Troodon
- Aug 12 2017, 11:31 AM
Impressive, though I still think the real title of 'Wolves of the Sea' go to Orcas. Though looking at this now, I can easily see them following in the footsteps of Polar Bears, as opposed to otters or pinnipeds or especially cetaceans
But eating barnacles points to early stages of durophagous invertivory. Though yes polar bears have gone another route as amphibious predators of pinnipeds, this is atypical for non-pinniped marine carnivorans. While I'm at it Sardolutra was a fast swimming piscivore but other than polar bears was the exception. It seems difficult for land carnivores to adapt to piscivory at least in the presence of established clades, so there is a bias to invertivory.
difficult...except where it wasn't. such as early whales.
Whales are not Carnivora and were probably the source of competitive exclusion. Not many whales have ever been durophages, nor for that matter have they been specialist predators of pinnipeds. (Something a bear does better when the seals are on pack ice.) So yea the point still stands, new marine Carnivora at least since pinnipeds shared the niches with whales, are excluded from marine ecosystems. The established clades are too good at it. really? whales competed with their ancestors? and here I thought it was croc and sharks that competed with remicetids and ambulocetids.
there is always a group of more established clades. and yet...
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IIGSY
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Aug 12 2017, 11:13 PM
Post #19
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- Rodlox
- Aug 12 2017, 09:28 PM
- kusanagi
- Aug 12 2017, 06:40 PM
- Rodlox
- Aug 12 2017, 04:43 PM
- kusanagi
- Aug 12 2017, 03:09 PM
- Troy Troodon
- Aug 12 2017, 11:31 AM
Impressive, though I still think the real title of 'Wolves of the Sea' go to Orcas. Though looking at this now, I can easily see them following in the footsteps of Polar Bears, as opposed to otters or pinnipeds or especially cetaceans
But eating barnacles points to early stages of durophagous invertivory. Though yes polar bears have gone another route as amphibious predators of pinnipeds, this is atypical for non-pinniped marine carnivorans. While I'm at it Sardolutra was a fast swimming piscivore but other than polar bears was the exception. It seems difficult for land carnivores to adapt to piscivory at least in the presence of established clades, so there is a bias to invertivory.
difficult...except where it wasn't. such as early whales.
Whales are not Carnivora and were probably the source of competitive exclusion. Not many whales have ever been durophages, nor for that matter have they been specialist predators of pinnipeds. (Something a bear does better when the seals are on pack ice.) So yea the point still stands, new marine Carnivora at least since pinnipeds shared the niches with whales, are excluded from marine ecosystems. The established clades are too good at it.
really? whales competed with their ancestors? and here I thought it was croc and sharks that competed with remicetids and ambulocetids. there is always a group of more established clades. and yet... True. By that logic, there shouldn't even be aquatic tetrapods because fish exist
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Rodlox
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Aug 12 2017, 11:38 PM
Post #20
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- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Aug 12 2017, 11:13 PM
- Rodlox
- Aug 12 2017, 09:28 PM
- kusanagi
- Aug 12 2017, 06:40 PM
- Rodlox
- Aug 12 2017, 04:43 PM
- kusanagi
- Aug 12 2017, 03:09 PM
- Troy Troodon
- Aug 12 2017, 11:31 AM
Impressive, though I still think the real title of 'Wolves of the Sea' go to Orcas. Though looking at this now, I can easily see them following in the footsteps of Polar Bears, as opposed to otters or pinnipeds or especially cetaceans
But eating barnacles points to early stages of durophagous invertivory. Though yes polar bears have gone another route as amphibious predators of pinnipeds, this is atypical for non-pinniped marine carnivorans. While I'm at it Sardolutra was a fast swimming piscivore but other than polar bears was the exception. It seems difficult for land carnivores to adapt to piscivory at least in the presence of established clades, so there is a bias to invertivory.
difficult...except where it wasn't. such as early whales.
Whales are not Carnivora and were probably the source of competitive exclusion. Not many whales have ever been durophages, nor for that matter have they been specialist predators of pinnipeds. (Something a bear does better when the seals are on pack ice.) So yea the point still stands, new marine Carnivora at least since pinnipeds shared the niches with whales, are excluded from marine ecosystems. The established clades are too good at it.
really? whales competed with their ancestors? and here I thought it was croc and sharks that competed with remicetids and ambulocetids. there is always a group of more established clades. and yet...
True. By that logic, there shouldn't even be aquatic tetrapods because fish exist precisely.
so glad you agree.
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.---------------------------------------------. Parts of the Cluster Worlds: "Marsupialless Australia" (what-if) & "Out on a Branch" (future evolution) & "The Earth under a still sun" (WIP)
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kusanagi
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Aug 13 2017, 06:16 AM
Post #21
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Well whatever the reason, after Pinnipeds all terrestrial carnivores returning to the sea save one or two, was a durophage. The Sardinian giant otter, North Pacific sea otter, the feline otter of South America and the sea mink were all clam or crab eaters. And now there are coastal wolves gnawing on barnacles. The only two exceptions were Sardolutra and the polar bear, which subsists largely on sea mammals caught on pack ice rather than in the sea itself.
Anyone can think of reasons for this pattern, please do. Pinnipeds and carnivorous cetaceans had no problems. Initially sea mammals have to be inshore forms, and are not going to be as goon in the water as modern whales, or fish. So yes, pinnipeds and certain cetaceans (such as common porpoises) are closest and most likely to force novel marine carnivores into untaken niches.
I appreciate that I'm comparing them only to established sea mammals not things like sharks or bony fishes, but has anyone an alternate explanation?
Edited by kusanagi, Aug 13 2017, 06:57 AM.
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