|
Ghost lineages!
|
|
Topic Started: Jun 21 2017, 06:59 AM (1,825 Views)
|
|
kusanagi
|
Jul 27 2017, 09:48 PM
Post #46
|
- Posts:
- 476
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #2,205
- Joined:
- Jul 20, 2017
- Gender:
- Female
|
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 09:26 PM
One node back? Hagfish have remnants of vertebra and are vertebrates.
So if so much evidence points to hemichordates being an invalid clade, why don't they change it? We finally establish acanthocephala as a part of rotifera*, so why not this? But xenoturbellids are basal bilaterians* and chaetognaths are basal protostomes*.
Dammit. DAMMIT! I though protostomes where the confusing one! Deuterostomes where supposed to be the fine and dandy ones while protostomes kept hopping around. BuT nOoOoOoOoO! Stupid hemichordates had to mess everything up!
You know what we need? A big, wide scale cladistic analysis of dueterostomes and possible dueterostomes. It needs to include homalozoans, enteropneusts, pterobranchs, pikia, cephalochordates, tunicates, euconodonts, paraconodonts, brachiozoans, hagfish, lampreys, ,some gnathostomes, tullimonstrum, vetulicolians, chaetognaths, xenacoelamorphs, some protostomes, and a cnidarian outgroup.
*lemme guess, that's not true either I am not sure acanthocephlians are within rotifers: there are problems with the idea of deriving them from the specialised rotifers. Technically the clade would be Syndermata and Seisonida would be removed from Rotifera to become the outgroup to Rotifera + Acanthocephalia. And Gnathostomata + Hyperoartia is Vertebrata, Vertebrata + Myxini is Craniata - its nothing too important just phylogenetic autism. Chaetognaths are still possibly deuterostome but they do turn up as stem protostomes (Nielsen) or even the sister of ecdysozoans. They are an odd group with no definite missing link since candidates Oesia and Amiskwia are too uncertain and remain nephrozoa incertae sedis like the chaetognths themselves. Xenocoelomates could be anywhere within Bilateria honestly since it is impossible to assume they are genuinely primitive else became a flatworm from some comples nephrozoan ancestor. (I explained that bit already.)
Edited by kusanagi, Jul 27 2017, 10:03 PM.
|
|
|
| |
|
IIGSY
|
Jul 27 2017, 09:54 PM
Post #47
|
A huntsman spider that wastes time on the internet because it has nothing better to do
- Posts:
- 3,758
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #1,987
- Joined:
- Sep 11, 2016
- Gender:
- Male
- Area of expertise:
- Future Evolution
- Favorite Quote:
- Don't have one
- Also known as:
- Anomonys
- Gender:
- male
|
- kusanagi
- Jul 27 2017, 09:48 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 09:26 PM
One node back? Hagfish have remnants of vertebra and are vertebrates.
So if so much evidence points to hemichordates being an invalid clade, why don't they change it? We finally establish acanthocephala as a part of rotifera*, so why not this? But xenoturbellids are basal bilaterians* and chaetognaths are basal protostomes*.
Dammit. DAMMIT! I though protostomes where the confusing one! Deuterostomes where supposed to be the fine and dandy ones while protostomes kept hopping around. BuT nOoOoOoOoO! Stupid hemichordates had to mess everything up!
You know what we need? A big, wide scale cladistic analysis of dueterostomes and possible dueterostomes. It needs to include homalozoans, enteropneusts, pterobranchs, pikia, cephalochordates, tunicates, euconodonts, paraconodonts, brachiozoans, hagfish, lampreys, ,some gnathostomes, tullimonstrum, vetulicolians, chaetognaths, xenacoelamorphs, some protostomes, and a cnidarian outgroup.
*lemme guess, that's not true either
I am not sure acanthocephlians are within rotifers: there are problems with the idea of deriving them from the specialised rotifers. Technically the clade would be Syndermata and Seisonida would be removed from Rotifera to become the outgroup to Rotifera + Acanthocephalia. And Gnathostomata + Hyperoartia is Vertebrata, Vertebrata + Myxini is Craniata. Chaetognaths are still possibly deuterostome but do turn up as stem protostomes or even the sister of ecdysozoans. They are an odd group with no definite missing link since candidates Oesia and Amiskwia are too uncertain and remain nephrozoa incertae sedis like the chaetognths themselves. Xenocoelomates could be anywhere within Bilateria honestly since it is impossible to assume they are genuinely primitive else became a flatworm from some comples nephrozoan ancestor. (I explained that already.) How would acanthocephalans being rotifers remove seisonids from the group? I always found "syndermata" to be pointless. Just include acanthocephala within rotifera.
And as for craniates. Palaeospondylus has a back bone. So if it is a stem hagfish, that would place palaeospondylus and hagfish within vertebrata.
Gosh, and people complain about dinosaurs having a confusing phylogeny.
|
Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod
ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)
Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.
Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
"He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH!
C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh
"RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little
"In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep.
Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh
"Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis
Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
More pictures
Other cool things
All African countries can fit into Brazil
|
| |
|
kusanagi
|
Jul 27 2017, 10:04 PM
Post #48
|
- Posts:
- 476
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #2,205
- Joined:
- Jul 20, 2017
- Gender:
- Female
|
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 09:54 PM
- kusanagi
- Jul 27 2017, 09:48 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 09:26 PM
One node back? Hagfish have remnants of vertebra and are vertebrates.
So if so much evidence points to hemichordates being an invalid clade, why don't they change it? We finally establish acanthocephala as a part of rotifera*, so why not this? But xenoturbellids are basal bilaterians* and chaetognaths are basal protostomes*.
Dammit. DAMMIT! I though protostomes where the confusing one! Deuterostomes where supposed to be the fine and dandy ones while protostomes kept hopping around. BuT nOoOoOoOoO! Stupid hemichordates had to mess everything up!
You know what we need? A big, wide scale cladistic analysis of dueterostomes and possible dueterostomes. It needs to include homalozoans, enteropneusts, pterobranchs, pikia, cephalochordates, tunicates, euconodonts, paraconodonts, brachiozoans, hagfish, lampreys, ,some gnathostomes, tullimonstrum, vetulicolians, chaetognaths, xenacoelamorphs, some protostomes, and a cnidarian outgroup.
*lemme guess, that's not true either
I am not sure acanthocephlians are within rotifers: there are problems with the idea of deriving them from the specialised rotifers. Technically the clade would be Syndermata and Seisonida would be removed from Rotifera to become the outgroup to Rotifera + Acanthocephalia. And Gnathostomata + Hyperoartia is Vertebrata, Vertebrata + Myxini is Craniata. Chaetognaths are still possibly deuterostome but do turn up as stem protostomes or even the sister of ecdysozoans. They are an odd group with no definite missing link since candidates Oesia and Amiskwia are too uncertain and remain nephrozoa incertae sedis like the chaetognths themselves. Xenocoelomates could be anywhere within Bilateria honestly since it is impossible to assume they are genuinely primitive else became a flatworm from some comples nephrozoan ancestor. (I explained that already.)
How would acanthocephalans being rotifers remove seisonids from the group? I always found "syndermata" to be pointless. Just include acanthocephala within rotifera. And as for craniates. Palaeospondylus has a back bone. So if it is a stem hagfish, that would place palaeospondylus and hagfish within vertebrata. Gosh, and people complain about dinosaurs having a confusing phylogeny. Its about phylogenetic taxonomy. Google it.
|
|
|
| |
|
IIGSY
|
Jul 27 2017, 10:08 PM
Post #49
|
A huntsman spider that wastes time on the internet because it has nothing better to do
- Posts:
- 3,758
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #1,987
- Joined:
- Sep 11, 2016
- Gender:
- Male
- Area of expertise:
- Future Evolution
- Favorite Quote:
- Don't have one
- Also known as:
- Anomonys
- Gender:
- male
|
- kusanagi
- Jul 27 2017, 10:04 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 09:54 PM
- kusanagi
- Jul 27 2017, 09:48 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 09:26 PM
One node back? Hagfish have remnants of vertebra and are vertebrates.
So if so much evidence points to hemichordates being an invalid clade, why don't they change it? We finally establish acanthocephala as a part of rotifera*, so why not this? But xenoturbellids are basal bilaterians* and chaetognaths are basal protostomes*.
Dammit. DAMMIT! I though protostomes where the confusing one! Deuterostomes where supposed to be the fine and dandy ones while protostomes kept hopping around. BuT nOoOoOoOoO! Stupid hemichordates had to mess everything up!
You know what we need? A big, wide scale cladistic analysis of dueterostomes and possible dueterostomes. It needs to include homalozoans, enteropneusts, pterobranchs, pikia, cephalochordates, tunicates, euconodonts, paraconodonts, brachiozoans, hagfish, lampreys, ,some gnathostomes, tullimonstrum, vetulicolians, chaetognaths, xenacoelamorphs, some protostomes, and a cnidarian outgroup.
*lemme guess, that's not true either
I am not sure acanthocephlians are within rotifers: there are problems with the idea of deriving them from the specialised rotifers. Technically the clade would be Syndermata and Seisonida would be removed from Rotifera to become the outgroup to Rotifera + Acanthocephalia. And Gnathostomata + Hyperoartia is Vertebrata, Vertebrata + Myxini is Craniata. Chaetognaths are still possibly deuterostome but do turn up as stem protostomes or even the sister of ecdysozoans. They are an odd group with no definite missing link since candidates Oesia and Amiskwia are too uncertain and remain nephrozoa incertae sedis like the chaetognths themselves. Xenocoelomates could be anywhere within Bilateria honestly since it is impossible to assume they are genuinely primitive else became a flatworm from some comples nephrozoan ancestor. (I explained that already.)
How would acanthocephalans being rotifers remove seisonids from the group? I always found "syndermata" to be pointless. Just include acanthocephala within rotifera. And as for craniates. Palaeospondylus has a back bone. So if it is a stem hagfish, that would place palaeospondylus and hagfish within vertebrata. Gosh, and people complain about dinosaurs having a confusing phylogeny.
Its about phylogenetic taxonomy. Google it.  I did. I didn't get anything helpful with regard to the question.
|
Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod
ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)
Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.
Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
"He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH!
C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh
"RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little
"In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep.
Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh
"Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis
Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
More pictures
Other cool things
All African countries can fit into Brazil
|
| |
|
Velociraptor
|
Jul 27 2017, 10:11 PM
Post #50
|
- Posts:
- 1,105
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #1,383
- Joined:
- Mar 21, 2014
- Area of expertise:
- Alternate Evolution
- Nationality:
- American
- Favorite Quote:
- Life, uh, finds a way.
- Gender:
- Amniote
|
What about marsupials? Australia has been isolated from all other continents for 96 million years, so they had to have made it there by the Cretaceous, and genetic evidence suggests that marsupials diverged from placentals about 160 million years ago, yet the earliest definitive marsupial fossil is from the Paleocene of Montana.
|

Unnamed No K-Pg project: coming whenever, maybe never. I got ideas tho.
|
| |
|
kusanagi
|
Jul 27 2017, 10:20 PM
Post #51
|
- Posts:
- 476
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #2,205
- Joined:
- Jul 20, 2017
- Gender:
- Female
|
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 10:08 PM
- kusanagi
- Jul 27 2017, 10:04 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 09:54 PM
- kusanagi
- Jul 27 2017, 09:48 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 09:26 PM
One node back? Hagfish have remnants of vertebra and are vertebrates.
So if so much evidence points to hemichordates being an invalid clade, why don't they change it? We finally establish acanthocephala as a part of rotifera*, so why not this? But xenoturbellids are basal bilaterians* and chaetognaths are basal protostomes*.
Dammit. DAMMIT! I though protostomes where the confusing one! Deuterostomes where supposed to be the fine and dandy ones while protostomes kept hopping around. BuT nOoOoOoOoO! Stupid hemichordates had to mess everything up!
You know what we need? A big, wide scale cladistic analysis of dueterostomes and possible dueterostomes. It needs to include homalozoans, enteropneusts, pterobranchs, pikia, cephalochordates, tunicates, euconodonts, paraconodonts, brachiozoans, hagfish, lampreys, ,some gnathostomes, tullimonstrum, vetulicolians, chaetognaths, xenacoelamorphs, some protostomes, and a cnidarian outgroup.
*lemme guess, that's not true either
I am not sure acanthocephlians are within rotifers: there are problems with the idea of deriving them from the specialised rotifers. Technically the clade would be Syndermata and Seisonida would be removed from Rotifera to become the outgroup to Rotifera + Acanthocephalia. And Gnathostomata + Hyperoartia is Vertebrata, Vertebrata + Myxini is Craniata. Chaetognaths are still possibly deuterostome but do turn up as stem protostomes or even the sister of ecdysozoans. They are an odd group with no definite missing link since candidates Oesia and Amiskwia are too uncertain and remain nephrozoa incertae sedis like the chaetognths themselves. Xenocoelomates could be anywhere within Bilateria honestly since it is impossible to assume they are genuinely primitive else became a flatworm from some comples nephrozoan ancestor. (I explained that already.)
How would acanthocephalans being rotifers remove seisonids from the group? I always found "syndermata" to be pointless. Just include acanthocephala within rotifera. And as for craniates. Palaeospondylus has a back bone. So if it is a stem hagfish, that would place palaeospondylus and hagfish within vertebrata. Gosh, and people complain about dinosaurs having a confusing phylogeny.
Its about phylogenetic taxonomy. Google it. 
I did. I didn't get anything helpful with regard to the question. Well if Rotifera and Acathocephalia are defined to exclude on another, Acanthocepalia cannot just be sunk within Rotifera. The point of PT is to seperate diagnosis/concept from definition but it fails on psychological grounds as clade usage usually gets dropped if their familiar content and therefore concept changes. All the same that's how it is.
|
|
|
| |
|
IIGSY
|
Jul 27 2017, 10:24 PM
Post #52
|
A huntsman spider that wastes time on the internet because it has nothing better to do
- Posts:
- 3,758
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #1,987
- Joined:
- Sep 11, 2016
- Gender:
- Male
- Area of expertise:
- Future Evolution
- Favorite Quote:
- Don't have one
- Also known as:
- Anomonys
- Gender:
- male
|
- kusanagi
- Jul 27 2017, 10:20 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 10:08 PM
- kusanagi
- Jul 27 2017, 10:04 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 09:54 PM
- kusanagi
- Jul 27 2017, 09:48 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 09:26 PM
One node back? Hagfish have remnants of vertebra and are vertebrates.
So if so much evidence points to hemichordates being an invalid clade, why don't they change it? We finally establish acanthocephala as a part of rotifera*, so why not this? But xenoturbellids are basal bilaterians* and chaetognaths are basal protostomes*.
Dammit. DAMMIT! I though protostomes where the confusing one! Deuterostomes where supposed to be the fine and dandy ones while protostomes kept hopping around. BuT nOoOoOoOoO! Stupid hemichordates had to mess everything up!
You know what we need? A big, wide scale cladistic analysis of dueterostomes and possible dueterostomes. It needs to include homalozoans, enteropneusts, pterobranchs, pikia, cephalochordates, tunicates, euconodonts, paraconodonts, brachiozoans, hagfish, lampreys, ,some gnathostomes, tullimonstrum, vetulicolians, chaetognaths, xenacoelamorphs, some protostomes, and a cnidarian outgroup.
*lemme guess, that's not true either
I am not sure acanthocephlians are within rotifers: there are problems with the idea of deriving them from the specialised rotifers. Technically the clade would be Syndermata and Seisonida would be removed from Rotifera to become the outgroup to Rotifera + Acanthocephalia. And Gnathostomata + Hyperoartia is Vertebrata, Vertebrata + Myxini is Craniata. Chaetognaths are still possibly deuterostome but do turn up as stem protostomes or even the sister of ecdysozoans. They are an odd group with no definite missing link since candidates Oesia and Amiskwia are too uncertain and remain nephrozoa incertae sedis like the chaetognths themselves. Xenocoelomates could be anywhere within Bilateria honestly since it is impossible to assume they are genuinely primitive else became a flatworm from some comples nephrozoan ancestor. (I explained that already.)
How would acanthocephalans being rotifers remove seisonids from the group? I always found "syndermata" to be pointless. Just include acanthocephala within rotifera. And as for craniates. Palaeospondylus has a back bone. So if it is a stem hagfish, that would place palaeospondylus and hagfish within vertebrata. Gosh, and people complain about dinosaurs having a confusing phylogeny.
Its about phylogenetic taxonomy. Google it. 
I did. I didn't get anything helpful with regard to the question.
Well if Rotifera and Acathocephalia are defined to exclude on another, Acanthocepalia cannot just be sunk within Rotifera. The point of PT is to seperate diagnosis/concept from definition but it fails on psychological grounds as clade usage usually gets dropped if their familiar content and therefore concept changes. All the same that's how it is. Yes, acanthocephala can just be sunk within rotifer. If rotifera is defined by ancestry (last common ancestor of extant rotifers), then that would include acanthocephala. If it where defined based on characteristics, then it would also include acanthocephala. Why make new terms when you can just slight adjust old ones?
|
Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod
ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)
Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.
Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
"He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH!
C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh
"RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little
"In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep.
Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh
"Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis
Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
More pictures
Other cool things
All African countries can fit into Brazil
|
| |
|
kusanagi
|
Jul 27 2017, 10:39 PM
Post #53
|
- Posts:
- 476
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #2,205
- Joined:
- Jul 20, 2017
- Gender:
- Female
|
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 10:24 PM
- kusanagi
- Jul 27 2017, 10:20 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 10:08 PM
- kusanagi
- Jul 27 2017, 10:04 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 09:54 PM
- kusanagi
- Jul 27 2017, 09:48 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 09:26 PM
One node back? Hagfish have remnants of vertebra and are vertebrates.
So if so much evidence points to hemichordates being an invalid clade, why don't they change it? We finally establish acanthocephala as a part of rotifera*, so why not this? But xenoturbellids are basal bilaterians* and chaetognaths are basal protostomes*.
Dammit. DAMMIT! I though protostomes where the confusing one! Deuterostomes where supposed to be the fine and dandy ones while protostomes kept hopping around. BuT nOoOoOoOoO! Stupid hemichordates had to mess everything up!
You know what we need? A big, wide scale cladistic analysis of dueterostomes and possible dueterostomes. It needs to include homalozoans, enteropneusts, pterobranchs, pikia, cephalochordates, tunicates, euconodonts, paraconodonts, brachiozoans, hagfish, lampreys, ,some gnathostomes, tullimonstrum, vetulicolians, chaetognaths, xenacoelamorphs, some protostomes, and a cnidarian outgroup.
*lemme guess, that's not true either
I am not sure acanthocephlians are within rotifers: there are problems with the idea of deriving them from the specialised rotifers. Technically the clade would be Syndermata and Seisonida would be removed from Rotifera to become the outgroup to Rotifera + Acanthocephalia. And Gnathostomata + Hyperoartia is Vertebrata, Vertebrata + Myxini is Craniata. Chaetognaths are still possibly deuterostome but do turn up as stem protostomes or even the sister of ecdysozoans. They are an odd group with no definite missing link since candidates Oesia and Amiskwia are too uncertain and remain nephrozoa incertae sedis like the chaetognths themselves. Xenocoelomates could be anywhere within Bilateria honestly since it is impossible to assume they are genuinely primitive else became a flatworm from some comples nephrozoan ancestor. (I explained that already.)
How would acanthocephalans being rotifers remove seisonids from the group? I always found "syndermata" to be pointless. Just include acanthocephala within rotifera. And as for craniates. Palaeospondylus has a back bone. So if it is a stem hagfish, that would place palaeospondylus and hagfish within vertebrata. Gosh, and people complain about dinosaurs having a confusing phylogeny.
Its about phylogenetic taxonomy. Google it. 
I did. I didn't get anything helpful with regard to the question.
Well if Rotifera and Acathocephalia are defined to exclude on another, Acanthocepalia cannot just be sunk within Rotifera. The point of PT is to seperate diagnosis/concept from definition but it fails on psychological grounds as clade usage usually gets dropped if their familiar content and therefore concept changes. All the same that's how it is.
Yes, acanthocephala can just be sunk within rotifer. If rotifera is defined by ancestry (last common ancestor of extant rotifers), then that would include acanthocephala. If it where defined based on characteristics, then it would also include acanthocephala. Why make new terms when you can just slight adjust old ones? Because stem based is better than node based.
|
|
|
| |
|
IIGSY
|
Jul 27 2017, 10:45 PM
Post #54
|
A huntsman spider that wastes time on the internet because it has nothing better to do
- Posts:
- 3,758
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #1,987
- Joined:
- Sep 11, 2016
- Gender:
- Male
- Area of expertise:
- Future Evolution
- Favorite Quote:
- Don't have one
- Also known as:
- Anomonys
- Gender:
- male
|
- kusanagi
- Jul 27 2017, 10:39 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 10:24 PM
- kusanagi
- Jul 27 2017, 10:20 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 10:08 PM
- kusanagi
- Jul 27 2017, 10:04 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 09:54 PM
- kusanagi
- Jul 27 2017, 09:48 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 09:26 PM
One node back? Hagfish have remnants of vertebra and are vertebrates.
So if so much evidence points to hemichordates being an invalid clade, why don't they change it? We finally establish acanthocephala as a part of rotifera*, so why not this? But xenoturbellids are basal bilaterians* and chaetognaths are basal protostomes*.
Dammit. DAMMIT! I though protostomes where the confusing one! Deuterostomes where supposed to be the fine and dandy ones while protostomes kept hopping around. BuT nOoOoOoOoO! Stupid hemichordates had to mess everything up!
You know what we need? A big, wide scale cladistic analysis of dueterostomes and possible dueterostomes. It needs to include homalozoans, enteropneusts, pterobranchs, pikia, cephalochordates, tunicates, euconodonts, paraconodonts, brachiozoans, hagfish, lampreys, ,some gnathostomes, tullimonstrum, vetulicolians, chaetognaths, xenacoelamorphs, some protostomes, and a cnidarian outgroup.
*lemme guess, that's not true either
I am not sure acanthocephlians are within rotifers: there are problems with the idea of deriving them from the specialised rotifers. Technically the clade would be Syndermata and Seisonida would be removed from Rotifera to become the outgroup to Rotifera + Acanthocephalia. And Gnathostomata + Hyperoartia is Vertebrata, Vertebrata + Myxini is Craniata. Chaetognaths are still possibly deuterostome but do turn up as stem protostomes or even the sister of ecdysozoans. They are an odd group with no definite missing link since candidates Oesia and Amiskwia are too uncertain and remain nephrozoa incertae sedis like the chaetognths themselves. Xenocoelomates could be anywhere within Bilateria honestly since it is impossible to assume they are genuinely primitive else became a flatworm from some comples nephrozoan ancestor. (I explained that already.)
How would acanthocephalans being rotifers remove seisonids from the group? I always found "syndermata" to be pointless. Just include acanthocephala within rotifera. And as for craniates. Palaeospondylus has a back bone. So if it is a stem hagfish, that would place palaeospondylus and hagfish within vertebrata. Gosh, and people complain about dinosaurs having a confusing phylogeny.
Its about phylogenetic taxonomy. Google it. 
I did. I didn't get anything helpful with regard to the question.
Well if Rotifera and Acathocephalia are defined to exclude on another, Acanthocepalia cannot just be sunk within Rotifera. The point of PT is to seperate diagnosis/concept from definition but it fails on psychological grounds as clade usage usually gets dropped if their familiar content and therefore concept changes. All the same that's how it is.
Yes, acanthocephala can just be sunk within rotifer. If rotifera is defined by ancestry (last common ancestor of extant rotifers), then that would include acanthocephala. If it where defined based on characteristics, then it would also include acanthocephala. Why make new terms when you can just slight adjust old ones?
Because stem based is better than node based.  1. No, it's not.
2 Even if rotifer was a crown based clade it would still include acanthocephalans
|
Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod
ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)
Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.
Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
"He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH!
C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh
"RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little
"In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep.
Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh
"Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis
Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
More pictures
Other cool things
All African countries can fit into Brazil
|
| |
|
kusanagi
|
Jul 27 2017, 11:13 PM
Post #55
|
- Posts:
- 476
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #2,205
- Joined:
- Jul 20, 2017
- Gender:
- Female
|
Well if Rotifera are defined as a stem to be closer to oe another than to acanthocephalians there are former rotifers outside the clade. But the whole point of PT is pure semantics. Sometimes this is awkward but it leaves less mess around.
Edited by kusanagi, Jul 27 2017, 11:18 PM.
|
|
|
| |
|
IIGSY
|
Jul 27 2017, 11:18 PM
Post #56
|
A huntsman spider that wastes time on the internet because it has nothing better to do
- Posts:
- 3,758
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #1,987
- Joined:
- Sep 11, 2016
- Gender:
- Male
- Area of expertise:
- Future Evolution
- Favorite Quote:
- Don't have one
- Also known as:
- Anomonys
- Gender:
- male
|
- kusanagi
- Jul 27 2017, 11:13 PM
Well if Rotifera are defined as a stem to be closer to oe another than to acanthocephalians there are former rotifers outside the clade. But the whole point of PT is pure semantics.  Sometimes this is awkward but it leaves less mess around. But that's not how rotifers are defined.
|
Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod
ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)
Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.
Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
"He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH!
C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh
"RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little
"In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep.
Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh
"Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis
Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
More pictures
Other cool things
All African countries can fit into Brazil
|
| |
|
kusanagi
|
Jul 28 2017, 09:39 AM
Post #57
|
- Posts:
- 476
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #2,205
- Joined:
- Jul 20, 2017
- Gender:
- Female
|
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 11:18 PM
- kusanagi
- Jul 27 2017, 11:13 PM
Well if Rotifera are defined as a stem to be closer to oe another than to acanthocephalians there are former rotifers outside the clade. But the whole point of PT is pure semantics.  Sometimes this is awkward but it leaves less mess around.
But that's not how rotifers are defined. Well I assume a stem definition else why were some rotifers removed from Rotifera.
Or do you mean the concept of rotifers is distinct from clsdistic definitions?
Edited by kusanagi, Jul 28 2017, 10:10 AM.
|
|
|
| |
|
IIGSY
|
Jul 28 2017, 10:48 AM
Post #58
|
A huntsman spider that wastes time on the internet because it has nothing better to do
- Posts:
- 3,758
- Group:
- Members
- Member
- #1,987
- Joined:
- Sep 11, 2016
- Gender:
- Male
- Area of expertise:
- Future Evolution
- Favorite Quote:
- Don't have one
- Also known as:
- Anomonys
- Gender:
- male
|
- kusanagi
- Jul 28 2017, 09:39 AM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jul 27 2017, 11:18 PM
- kusanagi
- Jul 27 2017, 11:13 PM
Well if Rotifera are defined as a stem to be closer to oe another than to acanthocephalians there are former rotifers outside the clade. But the whole point of PT is pure semantics.  Sometimes this is awkward but it leaves less mess around.
But that's not how rotifers are defined.
Well I assume a stem definition else why were some rotifers removed from Rotifera. Or do you mean the concept of rotifers is distinct from clsdistic definitions? No rotifers where removed, acanthocephala was added.
|
Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod
ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)
Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.
Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
"He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH!
C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh
"RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little
"In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep.
Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh
"Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis
Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
More pictures
Other cool things
All African countries can fit into Brazil
|
| |
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
|