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Does a phylum have anything to do with size?; If so, then Arthropods...
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Topic Started: Jun 15 2017, 11:26 AM (633 Views)
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Inceptis
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Jun 15 2017, 11:26 AM
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I saw a definition for phylum the other day:
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The minimal requirement is that all organisms in a phylum should be clearly more closely related to one another than to any other group.
What counts as more closely related? And as a phylum grows in size and more data becomes available, should it be split at a certain point if it gets exceptionally large and relations grow farther apart?
The most relevance this question has is in the matter of arthropoda. If yes, then Hexapoda alone might be too large to count as a phylum, let alone a subphylum.
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Tartarus
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Jun 15 2017, 06:52 PM
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As Linnaean taxonomic ranks are somewhat arbitrary it is tricky to say with any certainty at just what point a clade gets the phylum rank. As for how big a phylum is though I don't think that should matter too much. I for one have no problem with phyla ranging from having as few as one member species (e.g. Placozoa) to as many as millions of member species (e.g. Arthropoda).
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Inceptis
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Jun 16 2017, 02:14 PM
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Darn. Now that I think about it, we're in the same phylum as lancelets, and those are pretty far relatives. Meanwhile, a child could make the connection between a spider and an ant, even though they're as different as mouse and fish. I guess I'm just jealous of Arthropoda's quantity.
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Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt - Archean life boi
Corecin - This is why this timeline is infamous, as it brought back every memory of the 'Jurassic Zebra' thread, and we can never forget about it, we thus nuked the planet and never looked back, turning our sights to other timelines.
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IIGSY
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Jun 21 2017, 06:46 AM
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This is just my two cents, but I think tunicates and lancelets should be seperate phyla.
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Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod
ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)
Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.
Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
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Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh
"Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis
Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
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Inceptis
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Jun 23 2017, 10:09 PM
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Well, so far, the definition of Chordata is more or less that the organism has a notochord at some point in it's development, which is true for lancelets and tunicates.
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This was getting fairly big.
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The Hundred Thousand Acre Woods: We're going on an expotition... Roald Island: Snozzwangers and Whangdoodles aplenty(Please don't feed the nerds). The Candleverse: Like The Library, but with candles. Basura: Also like The Library, but with trash and lost things. From Scratch: We all drew monsters as children...
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GD: It shall be revived when I revive it.
Spoiler: click to toggle Quotes
Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt - Archean life boi
Corecin - This is why this timeline is infamous, as it brought back every memory of the 'Jurassic Zebra' thread, and we can never forget about it, we thus nuked the planet and never looked back, turning our sights to other timelines.
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IIGSY
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Jun 24 2017, 02:54 PM
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- Inceptis
- Jun 23 2017, 10:09 PM
Well, so far, the definition of Chordata is more or less that the organism has a notochord at some point in it's development, which is true for lancelets and tunicates. Yeah, but tunicates and lancelets differ from vertebrates in fundamental ways. It would be like putting tardigrades and onychophores in the same phylum as arthropods.
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Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod
ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)
Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.
Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
"He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH!
C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh
"RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little
"In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep.
Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh
"Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis
Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
More pictures
Other cool things
All African countries can fit into Brazil
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Inceptis
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Jun 24 2017, 05:09 PM
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I'm not sure it's that severe. Besides, tunicates are sessile filter feeders distantly related to Tetrapods. Barnacles are sessile filter feeders distantly related to spiders. To each their own, I guess.
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This was getting fairly big.
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The Hundred Thousand Acre Woods: We're going on an expotition... Roald Island: Snozzwangers and Whangdoodles aplenty(Please don't feed the nerds). The Candleverse: Like The Library, but with candles. Basura: Also like The Library, but with trash and lost things. From Scratch: We all drew monsters as children...
More serious projects Rivun: Qhoths on Rivun, evermore. Pelagia: Earth's mirror twin Calida: Looking to where you first began can reveal what's gone unnoticed. The first exoplanet ever found has a lukewarm sibling... Spyra: Few things are stranger than jellyfish, especially when they apologize. Canto: A planemo carrying the seeds of life is adopted by an elderly red dwarf couple. Music ensues. (?) Methuselah: Much is still in the works, given that life doesn't evolve on a planet.
GD: It shall be revived when I revive it.
Spoiler: click to toggle Quotes
Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt - Archean life boi
Corecin - This is why this timeline is infamous, as it brought back every memory of the 'Jurassic Zebra' thread, and we can never forget about it, we thus nuked the planet and never looked back, turning our sights to other timelines.
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IIGSY
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Jun 24 2017, 06:42 PM
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- Inceptis
- Jun 24 2017, 05:09 PM
I'm not sure it's that severe. Besides, tunicates are sessile filter feeders distantly related to Tetrapods. Barnacles are sessile filter feeders distantly related to spiders. To each their own, I guess. It is. A tunicate is a distant to a tetrapod as a velvet worm is too a spider.
|
Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod
ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)
Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.
Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
"He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH!
C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh
"RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little
"In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep.
Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh
"Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis
Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
More pictures
Other cool things
All African countries can fit into Brazil
|
| |
|
Tartarus
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Jun 24 2017, 06:59 PM
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- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jun 24 2017, 06:42 PM
A tunicate is a distant to a tetrapod as a velvet worm is too a spider. What are you basing this on?
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Datura
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Jun 24 2017, 07:22 PM
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- Tartarus
- Jun 24 2017, 06:59 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jun 24 2017, 06:42 PM
A tunicate is a distant to a tetrapod as a velvet worm is too a spider.
What are you basing this on? It's IIGS. He's probably not basing it on anything. He's a bug fetishist.
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LittleLazyLass
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Jun 24 2017, 07:45 PM
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No need to be rude, Datura.
Both divergences go back to the early Cambrian, so he's probably not to far off.
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Inceptis
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Jun 24 2017, 11:04 PM
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In my opinion, it seems to make more sense to define the hierarchy of clades based on when they diverged in evolutionary time, at least in some cases. However, this causes some obvious issues, especially with the phylums that have no history until well after the Cambrian.
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This was getting fairly big.
Spoiler: click to toggle Projects No link= doesn't exist yet Partial link= little or no information yet
The Hundred Thousand Acre Woods: We're going on an expotition... Roald Island: Snozzwangers and Whangdoodles aplenty(Please don't feed the nerds). The Candleverse: Like The Library, but with candles. Basura: Also like The Library, but with trash and lost things. From Scratch: We all drew monsters as children...
More serious projects Rivun: Qhoths on Rivun, evermore. Pelagia: Earth's mirror twin Calida: Looking to where you first began can reveal what's gone unnoticed. The first exoplanet ever found has a lukewarm sibling... Spyra: Few things are stranger than jellyfish, especially when they apologize. Canto: A planemo carrying the seeds of life is adopted by an elderly red dwarf couple. Music ensues. (?) Methuselah: Much is still in the works, given that life doesn't evolve on a planet.
GD: It shall be revived when I revive it.
Spoiler: click to toggle Quotes
Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt - Archean life boi
Corecin - This is why this timeline is infamous, as it brought back every memory of the 'Jurassic Zebra' thread, and we can never forget about it, we thus nuked the planet and never looked back, turning our sights to other timelines.
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IIGSY
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Jun 24 2017, 11:28 PM
Post #13
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- Datura
- Jun 24 2017, 07:22 PM
- Tartarus
- Jun 24 2017, 06:59 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Jun 24 2017, 06:42 PM
A tunicate is a distant to a tetrapod as a velvet worm is too a spider.
What are you basing this on?
It's IIGS. He's probably not basing it on anything. He's a bug fetishist. Dude. Stop that. I mean it.
Anyway, my claim isn't entirely baseless. Look at like this.
Tunicates and lancelets are related to vertebrates, as they have a notochord, but they lack a cartilage/bone endoskeleton
Velvet worms and tardigrades are related to arthropods as they have paired legs with claws, but they lack a sclerotized exoskeleton.
Plus, both vertebrates and arthropods diverged from tunicates/velvet worms in the early cambrian, possibly in the late neoproterozoic.
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Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod
ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)
Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.
Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
"He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH!
C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh
"RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little
"In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep.
Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh
"Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis
Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
More pictures
Other cool things
All African countries can fit into Brazil
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Tartarus
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Jun 26 2017, 12:59 AM
Post #14
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- Inceptis
- Jun 24 2017, 11:04 PM
In my opinion, it seems to make more sense to define the hierarchy of clades based on when they diverged in evolutionary time, at least in some cases. However, this causes some obvious issues, especially with the phylums that have no history until well after the Cambrian. The problem here is that divergence times will vary depending on which groups we're talking about and how much a group diversifies varies immensely, with some remaining fairly conservative and close to an ancestral form and others branching into numerous hugely different descendant lineages. So having a phylum as all creatures from after a certain divergence point in the distant past probably wouldn't work all that well. In any case, as I said before, "phylum" is a somewhat arbitrary term anyway so it shouldn't be too huge of a deal which groups we consider phyla.
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