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Parasitic vertebrates
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Topic Started: May 14 2017, 03:53 PM (1,278 Views)
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IIGSY
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May 14 2017, 03:53 PM
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In the vast world of metazoan parasites, there seems to be a strange lack of vertebrates. Why is this? I saw someone say that vertebrates have a higher metabolism than other animals, but that doesn't seem true. Maybe for large endotherms, yeah, but I don't see why a small lizard or fish would have a higher metabolism and an "invertebrate" of similar size. Vertebrates can be very small, and many can breathe through their skin, so I don't know why see why they are particularly poorly adapted to parasitism. And they few parasitic vertebrates that do exist are ectparasites. One species of pearlfish are the only known endoparasitic vertebrate (ironically, they attack sea cucumbers).
But before making speculative backboned endoparasites, read this. http://www.deepseanews.com/2013/10/ill-see-your-horrifying-crab-barnacle-and-raise-you-a-heart-eel/
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Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod
ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)
Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.
Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
"He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH!
C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh
"RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little
"In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep.
Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh
"Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis
Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
More pictures
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All African countries can fit into Brazil
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TAXESbutNano
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May 14 2017, 05:16 PM
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Probably because other animals do it easier. Vertebrate jaws are poorly-adapted for piercing, and the general presence of advanced respiratory and musculoskeletal systems means they tend to work better at large sizes. In addition, they're basically unable to bud and their eggs are much more fragile than a worm's egg case, so they'd have a lot of difficulty reproducing a stable population in an internal environment.
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IIGSY
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May 14 2017, 05:19 PM
Post #3
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A huntsman spider that wastes time on the internet because it has nothing better to do
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- Nanotyranus
- May 14 2017, 05:16 PM
Probably because other animals do it easier. Vertebrate jaws are poorly-adapted for piercing, and the general presence of advanced respiratory and musculoskeletal systems means they tend to work better at large sizes. In addition, they're basically unable to bud and their eggs are much more fragile than a worm's egg case, so they'd have a lot of difficulty reproducing a stable population in an internal environment. Most vertebrates can actually repatriate through their skin to some extent. If they adapted to such a lifestyle, they would probably expand on this and there would be no need to use their jaws. Vertebrates have shown they can pretty small as well. And amniotes have a protected egg, so that should work.
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Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod
ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)
Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.
Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
"He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH!
C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh
"RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little
"In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep.
Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh
"Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis
Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
More pictures
Other cool things
All African countries can fit into Brazil
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CaledonianWarrior96
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May 14 2017, 05:21 PM
Post #4
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While the idea of parasitic vertebrates is interesting, I feel like you just made this thread to argue that vertebrates are capable of becoming as well suited to parasitism as organisms from other clades are
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IIGSY
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May 14 2017, 05:30 PM
Post #5
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- CaledonianWarrior96
- May 14 2017, 05:21 PM
While the idea of parasitic vertebrates is interesting, I feel like you just made this thread to argue that vertebrates are capable of becoming as well suited to parasitism as organisms from other clades are But, as far as I know, they kinda are. Most vertebrates:
1.are small 2.are ectothermic 3.utilize cutaneous respiration to some extant
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Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod
ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)
Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.
Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
"He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH!
C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh
"RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little
"In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep.
Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh
"Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis
Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
More pictures
Other cool things
All African countries can fit into Brazil
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Tartarus
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May 14 2017, 05:41 PM
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- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- May 14 2017, 03:53 PM
One species of pearlfish are the only known endoparasitic vertebrate (ironically, they attack sea cucumbers). Actually that's not parasitism but commensalism, as the sea cucumber is not harmed or even bothered by having a fish in its arse.
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CaledonianWarrior96
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May 14 2017, 05:51 PM
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Maybe small vertebrates have never been forced or had the selection pressure to develop more into parasitism. I mean just because an organism has physiological aspects that make it suited for a different lifestyle doesn't mean it has to evolve to become more specialised.
That last bit sounds odd to me actually, but I stand by my point that small vertes have simply never needed to go down that route
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Come check out and subscribe to my projects on the following subforums;
Future Planet (V.2): the Future Evolution of Life on Earth (Evolutionary Continuum) The Meuse Legacy: An Alternative Outcome of the Mosasaur (Alternative Evolution) Terra Cascus: The Last Refuge of the Dinosaurs (Alternative Evolution) - Official Project - Foundation The Beryoni Galaxy: The Biologically Rich and Politically Complex State of our Galaxy (Habitational Zone) - Beryoni Critique Thread (formerly: Aliens of Beryoni) The Ecology of Skull Island: An Open Project for the Home of King Kong (Alternative Universe) The Ecology of Wakanda: An Open Project for the Home of Marvel's Black Panther (Alternative Universe)
(Click bold titles to go to page. To subscribe click on a project, scroll to the bottom of the page and click "track topic" on the bottom right corner)
And now, for something completely different
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IIGSY
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May 14 2017, 05:53 PM
Post #8
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A huntsman spider that wastes time on the internet because it has nothing better to do
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- Tartarus
- May 14 2017, 05:41 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- May 14 2017, 03:53 PM
One species of pearlfish are the only known endoparasitic vertebrate (ironically, they attack sea cucumbers).
Actually that's not parasitism but commensalism, as the sea cucumber is not harmed or even bothered by having a fish in its arse. In at least one species, or so I heard, it is true parasitism as the pearlfish eats the gut contents of the sea cucumber. They can regenerate though, so it's up to you to decide weather it's really "hurting" the sea cucumber. But it's still the closest thing we got.
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Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod
ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)
Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.
Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
"He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH!
C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh
"RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little
"In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep.
Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh
"Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis
Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
More pictures
Other cool things
All African countries can fit into Brazil
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Carlos
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May 14 2017, 06:02 PM
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Mostly because vertebrates tend to require higher energy and protein quantities than simpler invertebrates and fish, so a vertebrate endoparasite would eat its victims to death.
Still, I have one decent endoparasite in Lemuria, the paleognath Titicula.
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Lemuria: http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/
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IIGSY
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May 14 2017, 06:16 PM
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A huntsman spider that wastes time on the internet because it has nothing better to do
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- JohnFaa
- May 14 2017, 06:02 PM
Mostly because vertebrates tend to require higher energy and protein quantities than simpler invertebrates and fish, so a vertebrate endoparasite would eat its victims to death.
Still, I have one decent endoparasite in Lemuria, the paleognath Titicula. Fish are vertebrates. And even among tetrapods, why would an ectotherm like a small lizard require more energy than an "invertebrate" of similar size. Endotherms like mammals and dinosaurs are exceptions, not rules.
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Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod
ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)
Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.
Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
"He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH!
C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh
"RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little
"In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep.
Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh
"Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis
Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
More pictures
Other cool things
All African countries can fit into Brazil
|
| |
|
Beetleboy
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May 15 2017, 01:21 PM
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neither lizard nor boy nor beetle . . . but a little of all three
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- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- May 14 2017, 05:53 PM
- Tartarus
- May 14 2017, 05:41 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- May 14 2017, 03:53 PM
One species of pearlfish are the only known endoparasitic vertebrate (ironically, they attack sea cucumbers).
Actually that's not parasitism but commensalism, as the sea cucumber is not harmed or even bothered by having a fish in its arse.
In at least one species, or so I heard, it is true parasitism as the pearlfish eats the gut contents of the sea cucumber. They can regenerate though, so it's up to you to decide weather it's really "hurting" the sea cucumber. But it's still the closest thing we got. Yeah, one eats their gonads I believe. The good o'l cucumbers had grow 'em back after a couple of weeks though.
The idea of parasitic vertebrates is an interesting one. I could see a lineage of fish become full-time parasites. Might use that in Reefworld actually.
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IIGSY
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May 15 2017, 02:57 PM
Post #12
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A huntsman spider that wastes time on the internet because it has nothing better to do
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- Beetleboy
- May 15 2017, 01:21 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- May 14 2017, 05:53 PM
- Tartarus
- May 14 2017, 05:41 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- May 14 2017, 03:53 PM
One species of pearlfish are the only known endoparasitic vertebrate (ironically, they attack sea cucumbers).
Actually that's not parasitism but commensalism, as the sea cucumber is not harmed or even bothered by having a fish in its arse.
In at least one species, or so I heard, it is true parasitism as the pearlfish eats the gut contents of the sea cucumber. They can regenerate though, so it's up to you to decide weather it's really "hurting" the sea cucumber. But it's still the closest thing we got.
Yeah, one eats their gonads I believe. The good o'l cucumbers had grow 'em back after a couple of weeks though. The idea of parasitic vertebrates is an interesting one. I could see a lineage of fish become full-time parasites. Might use that in Reefworld actually. Fish are little too...obvious. But they are the most likely.
I have an idea for all yesterday's. The ancestor of all vertebrates was a parasite.
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Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod
ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)
Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.
Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
"He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH!
C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh
"RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little
"In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep.
Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh
"Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis
Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
More pictures
Other cool things
All African countries can fit into Brazil
|
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kusanagi
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Jul 20 2017, 12:51 PM
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An old idea is lampreys and hagfish are specialised worm-like parasitic forms but honestly they aren't that similar to endoparasitic worms. Though both have the genes for tooth enamel and hagfish for vertebrae, so their ancestors were more gnathsostome-like. The snubfin eel might not be a habitual parasite but it shows how a teleost that size can survive as an endoparasitic individual. Imagine something the size of the smallest teleosts with reproductive organs as marine endoparasites of other vertebrates and an absence of paired fins, camera eyes or other superfluous organs. How far could the degeneration go before the animal is unrecognisable as a fish anymore? Kind of like a tongue worm from an arthropod. Its possible but perhaps competitors outdo them. Pearlfish and candirus are probably the closest in nature there is to such hypothetical vertebrates.
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LittleLazyLass
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Jul 20 2017, 01:22 PM
Post #14
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I wonder if you could make an amphibian with parasitic tadpoles. Like, imagine if their environment wasn't suitable for completely waterbound young to survive (toxic chemicals, inconsistent climate); a parasitic larval stage sounds like a good solution, if you could make the transitional forms work.
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kusanagi
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Jul 20 2017, 01:45 PM
Post #15
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- Little
- Jul 20 2017, 01:22 PM
I wonder if you could make an amphibian with parasitic tadpoles. Like, imagine if their environment wasn't suitable for completely waterbound young to survive (toxic chemicals, inconsistent climate); a parasitic larval stage sounds like a good solution, if you could make the transitional forms work. If you include ectoparasitic then yes, suckermouth type teleosts and of course lampreys will attach and rasp at the sides of passing fishes. Anuran tadpoles have rasping mouthparts the question is if they can shift from algivory to at least faculative mucus feeders.
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