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Obscure Taxa; For interesting or obscure organisms you'd like to share.
Topic Started: Dec 14 2016, 09:46 PM (48,930 Views)
kusanagi
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There is no reason to think ctenophore nerve cells evolved independently. Ctenophores today are essentially progenetic planula larvae and thus form a clade with Cnidaria and Bilateria. Whereas sponge larvae are radially symmetrical and Trichoplax has no larva. Ctenophora and Cnidaria are now conformed as primitively triploblastic: the diploblastic state of "mesozoans" is a reversal and Orthonectids at least show Spiralian tissue homologies. The problem is not the nerve cells but the through gut which is genuinely odd in the ctenophores ending in two bum holes instead of one. But they're not as primitive as the sponges or Trichoplax even with the utmost phylogenetic pessimism.

Scleroctenophores and Stromatoveris have been compared to fronds by Dzik, and the recent hi-tech reconstruction of a frondose animal from Namibia supports a scleroctenophore affinity though not Dzik's interpretation of the animal's taphonomy. The only significant difference between them is the hexaradial versus octaradial symmetry. As with the molluscs Halwaxida, Nectocaris and Odontogriphus, or Etacystis, euconodonts, hyoliths and the vast array of Cambrian stem arthropods, they have been placed at least in specific parts of the tree.

There are still problematica to be solved, such as conularids, anabartids, trilobozoans, Dickinsonia, Typhloesus etc. At least in some cases such as Tullimonstrum the options seem narrowed to either a craniate or a gastropod. Conularids are a problem because they make a lot of sense as medusozoans yet share obvious similarities with tentaculitid tubeworms and some bryozoans (and incidentally with tetracorals). If conularids are jellyfishes then the tentaculitid relationship to bryozoans and perhaps tentaculitid monophyly falls apart. Other times problematica form a clade as with the cambroernid and vetulicolidan "phyla" or the stray clades like that of Inaria + Mackenzia, which makes things easier.
Edited by kusanagi, Aug 10 2017, 08:15 AM.
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kusanagi
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I want to nominate Dickinsonia actually for even if it is poorly preserved and its phylogenetic position may turn out to be mundane, it will nonetheless have been more important than the cephalozoans, trilobozoans or frondose animals in the history of ideas.

Dzik, Ivantov and others have inferred for all proarticulates nephrozoan-type organ systems but this is not the consensus position. Speculative is the notion that D. fed like a placozoan, based as it is upon the absence of evidence that D. is a bilaterian with a through gut, when the absence is a matter of suboptimal preservation. D. was motile at least which supports them being animals. Their growth indicates a bilaterian affinity rather than fungal or placozoan although they decomposed more like fungi or vegetation than soft bodied animals.

One of the oddest things about D. and other Ediacaran animals is imperfect glide symmetry. Such is seen in protonymphids which might or might not be Ediacaran survivors. Retallack interprets Protonympha as possessing hyphal structures whereas Conway Morris sees appendages. Protonymphids remain problematica and may not even be animals. The unusual frequency of bilateral glide symmetry among so many Ediacaran fauna hints they are a clade but this is far from definite.

Porifera + (Trichoplax + (Cnidaria + (Ctenophora + (Nephrozoa + ?((Dickinsonia + ?Protonympha) ?+ Spriggina)))))
Edited by kusanagi, Aug 10 2017, 08:38 AM.
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trex841
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Delayed Yapok Snip


South America's got some real interesting mammals and other critters hiding in there. Keep's giving me inspiration for my Isle of Sloths idea I had a while back.
F.I.N.D.R Field Incident Logs
A comprehensive list of all organisms, artifacts, and alternative worlds encountered by the foundation team.

At the present time, concepts within are inconsistent and ever shifting.

(And this is just the spec related stuff)
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kusanagi
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Does Lutreolina have a sealable pouch?
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IIGSY
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kusanagi
Aug 10 2017, 06:23 AM
There is no reason to think ctenophore nerve cells evolved independently. Ctenophores today are essentially progenetic planula larvae and thus form a clade with Cnidaria and Bilateria. Whereas sponge larvae are radially symmetrical and Trichoplax has no larva. Ctenophora and Cnidaria are now conformed as primitively triploblastic: the diploblastic state of "mesozoans" is a reversal and Orthonectids at least show Spiralian tissue homologies. The problem is not the nerve cells but the through gut which is genuinely odd in the ctenophores ending in two bum holes instead of one. But they're not as primitive as the sponges or Trichoplax even with the utmost phylogenetic pessimism.

Scleroctenophores and Stromatoveris have been compared to fronds by Dzik, and the recent hi-tech reconstruction of a frondose animal from Namibia supports a scleroctenophore affinity though not Dzik's interpretation of the animal's taphonomy. The only significant difference between them is the hexaradial versus octaradial symmetry. As with the molluscs Halwaxida, Nectocaris and Odontogriphus, or Etacystis, euconodonts, hyoliths and the vast array of Cambrian stem arthropods, they have been placed at least in specific parts of the tree.

There are still problematica to be solved, such as conularids, anabartids, trilobozoans, Dickinsonia, Typhloesus etc. At least in some cases such as Tullimonstrum the options seem narrowed to either a craniate or a gastropod. Conularids are a problem because they make a lot of sense as medusozoans yet share obvious similarities with tentaculitid tubeworms and some bryozoans (and incidentally with tetracorals). If conularids are jellyfishes then the tentaculitid relationship to bryozoans and perhaps tentaculitid monophyly falls apart. Other times problematica form a clade as with the cambroernid and vetulicolidan "phyla" or the stray clades like that of Inaria + Mackenzia, which makes things easier.
You know what we need? A big, wide scale phylogeny of proterozoic and early paleozoic metazoans with fungi as an outgroup. We need to ALL taxa that are even slightly problematic, and use some well resolved taxa as anchors. Why has nobody done this? WHY?!
Projects
Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates
Last one crawling: The last arthropod

ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)

Potential ideas-
Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized.
Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal.
Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.

Quotes


Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups


In honor of the greatest clade of all time


More pictures


Other cool things


All African countries can fit into Brazil
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kusanagi
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Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
Aug 10 2017, 01:11 PM
kusanagi
Aug 10 2017, 06:23 AM
There is no reason to think ctenophore nerve cells evolved independently. Ctenophores today are essentially progenetic planula larvae and thus form a clade with Cnidaria and Bilateria. Whereas sponge larvae are radially symmetrical and Trichoplax has no larva. Ctenophora and Cnidaria are now conformed as primitively triploblastic: the diploblastic state of "mesozoans" is a reversal and Orthonectids at least show Spiralian tissue homologies. The problem is not the nerve cells but the through gut which is genuinely odd in the ctenophores ending in two bum holes instead of one. But they're not as primitive as the sponges or Trichoplax even with the utmost phylogenetic pessimism.

Scleroctenophores and Stromatoveris have been compared to fronds by Dzik, and the recent hi-tech reconstruction of a frondose animal from Namibia supports a scleroctenophore affinity though not Dzik's interpretation of the animal's taphonomy. The only significant difference between them is the hexaradial versus octaradial symmetry. As with the molluscs Halwaxida, Nectocaris and Odontogriphus, or Etacystis, euconodonts, hyoliths and the vast array of Cambrian stem arthropods, they have been placed at least in specific parts of the tree.

There are still problematica to be solved, such as conularids, anabartids, trilobozoans, Dickinsonia, Typhloesus etc. At least in some cases such as Tullimonstrum the options seem narrowed to either a craniate or a gastropod. Conularids are a problem because they make a lot of sense as medusozoans yet share obvious similarities with tentaculitid tubeworms and some bryozoans (and incidentally with tetracorals). If conularids are jellyfishes then the tentaculitid relationship to bryozoans and perhaps tentaculitid monophyly falls apart. Other times problematica form a clade as with the cambroernid and vetulicolidan "phyla" or the stray clades like that of Inaria + Mackenzia, which makes things easier.
You know what we need? A big, wide scale phylogeny of proterozoic and early paleozoic metazoans with fungi as an outgroup. We need to ALL taxa that are even slightly problematic, and use some well resolved taxa as anchors. Why has nobody done this? WHY?!
1. Because it is hard to create a matrix optimised for ALL those taxa. At the very least it would be inaccurate at resolving where Nectocaris is within molluscs, for example. It would resolve more general taxonomic problems.
2. Because a distant outgroup such as fungi may cause problems: choanoflagellates may be a better choice.
3. Many important taxa are imperfectly preserved and cannot be coded accurately (Dickinsonia, Typhloesus).

However there are a few morphological matrices for Metazoa, to which fossils could be added. Minimum assumption codings have been made for euconodonts, vetulicolidans and Tullimonstrum. Elsewhere conularids, Nectocaris, Odontogriphus and others have been added to more phylogenetically limited analyses.

Fossil taxa to include would need to be well preserved, preferably with internal organs or at least significant soft parts known. Soft parts are what identified hyoliths as brachiozoan, for example. The rangeomorph/ernettiomorph ctenophores can now be added to such a matrix but the other Ediacaran clades are problematic - dickinsoniids, cephalozoans, trilobozoans. Codings exist for Cambrian problematica Yunnanozoon and Pikaia but none yet for Myoscolex.
Edited by kusanagi, Aug 10 2017, 01:41 PM.
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IIGSY
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kusanagi
Aug 10 2017, 01:21 PM
Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
Aug 10 2017, 01:11 PM
kusanagi
Aug 10 2017, 06:23 AM
There is no reason to think ctenophore nerve cells evolved independently. Ctenophores today are essentially progenetic planula larvae and thus form a clade with Cnidaria and Bilateria. Whereas sponge larvae are radially symmetrical and Trichoplax has no larva. Ctenophora and Cnidaria are now conformed as primitively triploblastic: the diploblastic state of "mesozoans" is a reversal and Orthonectids at least show Spiralian tissue homologies. The problem is not the nerve cells but the through gut which is genuinely odd in the ctenophores ending in two bum holes instead of one. But they're not as primitive as the sponges or Trichoplax even with the utmost phylogenetic pessimism.

Scleroctenophores and Stromatoveris have been compared to fronds by Dzik, and the recent hi-tech reconstruction of a frondose animal from Namibia supports a scleroctenophore affinity though not Dzik's interpretation of the animal's taphonomy. The only significant difference between them is the hexaradial versus octaradial symmetry. As with the molluscs Halwaxida, Nectocaris and Odontogriphus, or Etacystis, euconodonts, hyoliths and the vast array of Cambrian stem arthropods, they have been placed at least in specific parts of the tree.

There are still problematica to be solved, such as conularids, anabartids, trilobozoans, Dickinsonia, Typhloesus etc. At least in some cases such as Tullimonstrum the options seem narrowed to either a craniate or a gastropod. Conularids are a problem because they make a lot of sense as medusozoans yet share obvious similarities with tentaculitid tubeworms and some bryozoans (and incidentally with tetracorals). If conularids are jellyfishes then the tentaculitid relationship to bryozoans and perhaps tentaculitid monophyly falls apart. Other times problematica form a clade as with the cambroernid and vetulicolidan "phyla" or the stray clades like that of Inaria + Mackenzia, which makes things easier.
You know what we need? A big, wide scale phylogeny of proterozoic and early paleozoic metazoans with fungi as an outgroup. We need to ALL taxa that are even slightly problematic, and use some well resolved taxa as anchors. Why has nobody done this? WHY?!
1. Because it is hard to create a matrix optimised for ALL those taxa. At the very least it would be inaccurate at resolving where Nectocaris is within molluscs, for example. It would resolve more general taxonomic problems.
2. Because a distant outgroup such as fungi may cause problems: choanoflagellates may be a better choice.
3. Many important taxa are imperfectly preserved and cannot be coded accurately (Dickinsonia, Typhloesus).

However there are a few morphological matrices for Metazoa, to which fossils could be added. Minimum assumption codings have been made for euconodonts, vetulicolidans and Tullimonstrum. Elsewhere conularids, Nectocaris, Odontogriphus and others have been added to more phylogenetically limited analyses.

Fossil taxa to include would need to be well preserved, preferably with internal organs or at least significant soft parts known. Soft parts are what identified hyoliths as brachiozoan, for example. The rangeomorph/ernettiomorph ctenophores can now be added to such a matrix but the other Ediacaran clades are problematic - dickinsoniids, cephalozoans, trilobozoans. Codings exist for Cambrian problematica Yunnanozoon and Pikaia but none yet for Myoscolex.
1. That's why I said we use well resolved taxa as anchors.
2. How would distant out groups be a problem?
3. Well, we use all the taxa that can be properly coded.
Projects
Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates
Last one crawling: The last arthropod

ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)

Potential ideas-
Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized.
Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal.
Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.

Quotes


Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups


In honor of the greatest clade of all time


More pictures


Other cool things


All African countries can fit into Brazil
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kusanagi
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You are optimistic about coding: codings for soft tissues preserved in fossils are subject to specious wishful thinking, no? Tullimonstrum, euconodonts and vetulicolida are all subject to questionable codings that were skeptically reviewed. Tullimonstrum was re-run with the same choice of taxa only to show the analysis was problematic; euconodonts turned out to be non-craniates though the analysis constrained them to be chordates; and vetulicolida are probably scalidophorans out of a choice of urochordate, stem deuterostome, panarthropod or kinorhynch affinities.

I can't run phylogenetic software or I would dick around with some matrices. Therian phylogeny too. Would anyone like to try it on my behalf?

Look at figure 3 below:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/247219758_Bayesian_Inference_of_the_Metazoan_PhylogenyA_Combined_Molecular_and_Morphological_Approach

It is a recent enough morphological tree to which fossils with hard parts or preserved soft parts may be compared. For better usefulness some terminals need splitting into clades like gastropoda, urochordata etc before it can be more useful for the task as some problematica will be closer to one subphylum or class than to a whole phylum. This is true whenever a terminus represents a clade that is anatomically diverse such as molluscs (solenogastres + caudofaveata + polyplacophora + (tryblidiida + (bivalvia + scaphopoda + gastropoda + cephalopoda))), chordates (urochordata + leptocardii + (myxini + (hyperoartia + gnathostomata))), annelids (sipunculida + (polychaeta + clitellata)).

It would be easy to add some ready-coded fossils to the matrix and add character states from matrices intended for ie. arthropod, mollusc or chordate phylogenies.

The results for molluscs ought to be interesting because morphological cladistics of the crown phylum have been unduly influenced by the effects of proximate out-groups on the internal topology. Testaria emerges when an annelid-like spiralian is used as the outgroup, but Aculifera relies upon a turbellarian-like sister group. Halwaxida and Odontogriphus (already coded elsewhere) may help clear up the root of molluscs.
Edited by kusanagi, Aug 11 2017, 07:22 PM.
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Rodlox
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Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
Aug 10 2017, 01:11 PM
Quote:
 
There are still problematica to be solved, such as conularids, anabartids, trilobozoans, Dickinsonia, Typhloesus etc. At least in some cases such as Tullimonstrum the options seem narrowed to either a craniate or a gastropod. Conularids are a problem because they make a lot of sense as medusozoans yet share obvious similarities with tentaculitid tubeworms and some bryozoans (and incidentally with tetracorals). If conularids are jellyfishes then the tentaculitid relationship to bryozoans and perhaps tentaculitid monophyly falls apart. Other times problematica form a clade as with the cambroernid and vetulicolidan "phyla" or the stray clades like that of Inaria + Mackenzia, which makes things easier.
You know what we need? A big, wide scale phylogeny of proterozoic and early paleozoic metazoans with fungi as an outgroup. We need to ALL taxa that are even slightly problematic, and use some well resolved taxa as anchors. Why has nobody done this? WHY?!
$$$$$$ - needs it we does
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Parts of the Cluster Worlds:
"Marsupialless Australia" (what-if) & "Out on a Branch" (future evolution) & "The Earth under a still sun" (WIP)
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kusanagi
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Aye, I cannot donate online. It would be nice to see cambroernids and vetulicolidans added to the Glenner morphological matrix as they are unlikely to be within any living terminus, are equivalent to phyla themselves (vetulicolida include a basal grade of banffozoans) and have handily already been coded. Euconodonts I predict will be euchordates, cambroernids deuterostomes and vetulicolids scalidophorans. Vinn and Zaton coded tentaculitids, a problematic clade of tubeworms. Odds and ends coded as genera include Jaeckelocarpus, Pikaia, Tullimonstrum (revised coding preferred), Odontogriphus, Nectocaris, Wiwaxia etc.

If you haven't noticed they need more living mollusc and cnidarian classes in their tree as well. Again, the data can be lifted from existing matrices dealing with the mollusc classes (Haszprunar), as well as medusozoans (Marques and Collins even include conularids which their analysis constrained to be cnidarian). Myxozoan codings also exist, also for Polypodium and Buddenbrockia: triploblastic cnidarians.

All of this requires little novel coding though there is presumably mismatch between the characters scored in the datasets. This is because a lot of the papers can be pilfered, ran analyses with a specific focus. The Tullimonster-is-a-lamprey analysis springs to mind but there must be something can be done even without new coding.

Did you ask before about Oesia, and hemichordates?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4936055/
Edited by kusanagi, Aug 11 2017, 01:19 PM.
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Dragonthunders
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Introducing another unusual eyes of deep-sea fishes

Ipnops

Posted Image

This genus belongs to the family Ipnopidae, being a relative of the most known tripodfish (Bathypterois grallator), but unlike its long-finned relative, this species is characterized by its unusual eyes, it has one of the most derived eyes among vertebrates since they are yellowish flat cornea-like lenseless structures above the surface of the head. It seems that the function of these structures is still under debate because of the little that is known of this fish, if it still has a photosensitive function it is possible to use it to detect the smallest amounts of light in the dark.




In this case I include 2 specific species of fishes because these have the same common and weird feature, the Rhynchohyalus natalensis and the Brownsnout Spookfish (Dolichopteryx longipes), both belongs to the Opisthoproctidae family, or called Barreleyes. Both species possess a second pair of ocular structures, this secondary structure in both species look in the opposite direction to the main eyes, which give a much greater range of vision.

Posted Image
Gross morphology of the eyes of R. natalensis.


Posted Image
Posted Image
Up: The D. longipes
below: eye. (1) Diverticulum (a) Retina (b) Reflective crystals (2) Main Eye (c) lens (d) retina





I would like to take a little time to point out that as we are growing more and more in entries for this topic. is much more difficult to go to past post and view them, so I had thought that maybe it would be a good idea if we made a list of links of the entries of the species shown so far, classify them according to group or perhaps to date of introduction and thus facilitate the navigation?
Like what large projects do in topics, it could be updated monthly or weekly, it could start from the first message being added by probably some Global mod because DINOCARID is not always active.



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Wonder what is the big of the big on speculative evolution? no problem, here is the answer

Coming one day
Age of Mankind
Humanity fate and its possible finals.

The Long Cosmic Journey
The history outside our world.

The alternative paths
The multiverse, the final frontier...

Holocene park: Welcome to the biggest adventure of the last 215 million years, where the age of mammals comes to life again!
Cambrian mars: An interesting experiment on an unprecedented scale, the life of a particular and important period in the history of our planet, the cambric life, has been transported to a terraformed and habitable mars in an alternative past.
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kusanagi
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After we discussed the other day the supposed hybrid origin of tunicates, let us discuss the Dicyemida or Rhombozoa, a phylum of parasitic oddities hosted by cephalopods. Noto and Endoh suggested they are protists that acquired genes from a lophotrochozoan host, but this could be the other way around: they do have protozoan traits. Unlike the degenerated Orthonectida which have several spiralian homologies despite their simplification, there are few such for the rhombozoans - they do have spiral cleavage but such is present in chaetognaths, which are not usually regarded spiralian, after all. Although their protozoan traits might seem genuinely primitive and they do lack triploblasty, as with Salinella it is hard to fit them into the Metazoan crown or stem without assuming 1) massive reversals or 2) some kind of chimaerism across evolutionary lineages.

Although their ciliate characters include tubular mitochondrial cristae, endocytic ability from the outer surface, and the absence of collagenous tissue, for now they are Bilateria incertae sedis. These are going to be a tough one for any clatistic analysis as they lost, did not borrow, or never even possessed many animal synapomorphies. Why worry about the implications of Salinella for the animal tree, when the rhombozoans remain as mysterious after restudy owing to horizontal gene transfer between kingdoms of eukaryotic life.
Edited by kusanagi, Aug 11 2017, 05:59 PM.
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Dragonthunders
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Eh, kusanagi, pls try to make that discussion in a separate topic because this isn't the topic for that, Obscure taxa is about exibition of "obscure" animals species, genus groups and others.
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The Future is Far
Welcome to the next chapters of the evolution of life on earth, travel the across the earth on a journey that goes beyond the limits, a billion years of future history in the making.

The SE giants project
Wonder what is the big of the big on speculative evolution? no problem, here is the answer

Coming one day
Age of Mankind
Humanity fate and its possible finals.

The Long Cosmic Journey
The history outside our world.

The alternative paths
The multiverse, the final frontier...

Holocene park: Welcome to the biggest adventure of the last 215 million years, where the age of mammals comes to life again!
Cambrian mars: An interesting experiment on an unprecedented scale, the life of a particular and important period in the history of our planet, the cambric life, has been transported to a terraformed and habitable mars in an alternative past.
Two different paths, two different worlds, but same life and same weirdness.




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IIGSY
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Dragonthunders
Aug 11 2017, 06:01 PM
Eh, kusanagi, pls try to make that discussion in a separate topic because this isn't the topic for that, Obscure taxa is about exibition of "obscure" animals species, genus groups and others.
I think rhombozoans are pretty obscure if you ask me
Projects
Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates
Last one crawling: The last arthropod

ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)

Potential ideas-
Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized.
Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal.
Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.

Quotes


Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups


In honor of the greatest clade of all time


More pictures


Other cool things


All African countries can fit into Brazil
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Dragonthunders
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The ethereal archosaur in blue

Oh, sorry, I confused the context of the post, I thought you were still arguing about cladistic relationships
Projects

"Active" projects

The Future is Far
Welcome to the next chapters of the evolution of life on earth, travel the across the earth on a journey that goes beyond the limits, a billion years of future history in the making.

The SE giants project
Wonder what is the big of the big on speculative evolution? no problem, here is the answer

Coming one day
Age of Mankind
Humanity fate and its possible finals.

The Long Cosmic Journey
The history outside our world.

The alternative paths
The multiverse, the final frontier...

Holocene park: Welcome to the biggest adventure of the last 215 million years, where the age of mammals comes to life again!
Cambrian mars: An interesting experiment on an unprecedented scale, the life of a particular and important period in the history of our planet, the cambric life, has been transported to a terraformed and habitable mars in an alternative past.
Two different paths, two different worlds, but same life and same weirdness.




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